Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
Thanks On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Oz-in-DFW wrote: > On 7/19/2014 3:45 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Attilla I did look at some of the documents. But none showed practical HF > > class injection locking. Say as an example a 6 MHz xtal to a 1 or 2 MHz > > reference. > > It maybe as easy as a single transistor in the oscillators ground lead. > Paul, everything I seen done in this frequency range has been a small > coupling cap in the base/gate of the crystal oscillator - small enough > that the reactance was large relative to the base/gate impedance. The > resulting injected signal amplitude was ~5-10% of the normal operating > amplitude at the base. Lock detection was done with a mixer looking for > DC output. > > Always on till a brief pulse from the 1 or 2 MHz ref cuts it off. I > think I > > just talked myself into an attempt. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > > > > > -- > mailto:o...@ozindfw.net > Oz > POB 93167 > Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
On 7/19/2014 3:45 PM, paul swed wrote: > Attilla I did look at some of the documents. But none showed practical HF > class injection locking. Say as an example a 6 MHz xtal to a 1 or 2 MHz > reference. > It maybe as easy as a single transistor in the oscillators ground lead. Paul, everything I seen done in this frequency range has been a small coupling cap in the base/gate of the crystal oscillator - small enough that the reactance was large relative to the base/gate impedance. The resulting injected signal amplitude was ~5-10% of the normal operating amplitude at the base. Lock detection was done with a mixer looking for DC output. > Always on till a brief pulse from the 1 or 2 MHz ref cuts it off. I think I > just talked myself into an attempt. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
HI As long as you have a really poor crystal oscillator (wide band loop) they are quite easy to lock. If you have a high performance crystal oscillator (high Q / narrow band loop) they are relatively difficult to lock. If you are trying to *guarantee* a lock bandwidth and *guarantee* a level of performance they are not an easy way to go. A PLL probably will do what you want with a lot fewer headaches. If you want absolute super performance multiplying, then by all means go with the approach. Plan on building a very good OCXO and then having it guarantee good locked performance over a really narrow ( think ppb to less than ppb) sort of range. Bob On Jul 19, 2014, at 4:45 PM, paul swed wrote: > Attilla I did look at some of the documents. But none showed practical HF > class injection locking. Say as an example a 6 MHz xtal to a 1 or 2 MHz > reference. > It maybe as easy as a single transistor in the oscillators ground lead. > Always on till a brief pulse from the 1 or 2 MHz ref cuts it off. I think I > just talked myself into an attempt. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > > On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: > >> On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:18:20 +0200 >> Francesco Messineo wrote: >> >>> what would be the best method to try injection locking a butler common >>> base crystal oscillator (see figure in >>> http://www.eska.dk/oscillator_data.htm for schematic)? >>> Any comment about close-in phase noise performance when adding >>> injection locking to such oscillators? >>> Thanks in advance for any hint. >> >> Moin, >> >> I cannot give you performance data, but i can point you at some papers >> that deal with injection locking. >> >> Probably one of the best known papers is from Robert Adler[1]. >> It mainly deals with how locking comes to be, what the conditions >> for locking are and how to calculate those. >> >> The other big name in injection locking is Kurokawa Kaneyuki. >> His first paper [2] deals, as the title suggests, with noise in >> coupled oscillators vs noise in single oscillators. >> His second paper [3] deals with injection locking itself, similar >> to what Adler did, but with a more "modern" terminology, but also >> with more math. >> (There are more papers from him on this topic, but i have not had >> time to read those) >> >> Chang et al. did a nice work on locking of multiple oscillators in [4] >> and how coupling directions affect them. >> >> Razavi did a nice rework of earlier findings on injection locking in [5]. >> In my opinion, this has one of the easier understandable math in all the >> papers i've read on injection locking. Also his liberal use of graphs >> simplify the interpretation of the formulas. >> >> Zhang et al. did a quite nice analysis of noise behavoir of coupled >> oscillators in [6]. But my main reason for mentioning it here is >> the measurements they made, which might give you an indiciation on where >> you might end up with your circuit. >> >> If you are more on the simulation side, [7] might give you a point to >> start how to model injection locking in spice (though, i must say that >> is one paper i stumbled upon and probably not the best in that area). >> >> HTH >> >>Attila Kinali >> >> >> [1] "A Study of Locking Phenomena in Oscillators", by Robert Adler, 1946 >> reprinted in Proceedings of IEEE October 1973 >> >> [2] "Noise in Synchronized Oscillators", by Kurokawa Kaneyuki, 1968 >> >> [3] "Injection Locking in Microwave Solid-State Oscillators", by Kurokawa >> Kaneyuki, 1973 >> >> [4] "Phase Noise in Coupled Oscillators: Theory and Experiment", >> by Chang, Cao, Mishra and York, 1997 >> >> [5] "A Study of Injection Locking and Pulling in Oscillators", by Behzad >> Razavi, 2004 >> >> [6] "A Theoretical and Experimental Study of the Noise Behavior of >> Subharmonically Injection Locked Local Oscillators", by Zhan, Zhou, >> and Daryoush, 1992 >> >> [7] "Capturing Oscillator Injection Locking via Nonlinear Phase-Domain >> Macromodels", >> by Lai and Roychowdhury, 2004 >> >> -- >> I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in >> the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous >> even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being >> superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. >>-- Sophie Scholl >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts a
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
if you have enough buffering -- look for now noise amplifiers, which have low h12 [= "backward gain " ] a quartz oscillator will not lock so easy On 7/19/2014 5:24 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 16:45:14 -0400 paul swed wrote: Attilla I did look at some of the documents. But none showed practical HF class injection locking. Say as an example a 6 MHz xtal to a 1 or 2 MHz reference. It maybe as easy as a single transistor in the oscillators ground lead. Always on till a brief pulse from the 1 or 2 MHz ref cuts it off. I think I just talked myself into an attempt. Yes, most of the papers in this area are quite theoretic. So far i've not found anything applicable to time-nuts kind of use. Those papers that deal with real world injection locking are mostly for integrated circuits (90° phase shifter, frequency doubler or divider) and thus are quite specific to the environments there. I have not gone trough the math in detail and calculated what would would come out in a injection locked quartz crystal. Maybe i should sit down and do the math... Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 16:45:14 -0400 paul swed wrote: > Attilla I did look at some of the documents. But none showed practical HF > class injection locking. Say as an example a 6 MHz xtal to a 1 or 2 MHz > reference. > It maybe as easy as a single transistor in the oscillators ground lead. > Always on till a brief pulse from the 1 or 2 MHz ref cuts it off. I think I > just talked myself into an attempt. Yes, most of the papers in this area are quite theoretic. So far i've not found anything applicable to time-nuts kind of use. Those papers that deal with real world injection locking are mostly for integrated circuits (90° phase shifter, frequency doubler or divider) and thus are quite specific to the environments there. I have not gone trough the math in detail and calculated what would would come out in a injection locked quartz crystal. Maybe i should sit down and do the math... Attila Kinali -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
Attilla I did look at some of the documents. But none showed practical HF class injection locking. Say as an example a 6 MHz xtal to a 1 or 2 MHz reference. It maybe as easy as a single transistor in the oscillators ground lead. Always on till a brief pulse from the 1 or 2 MHz ref cuts it off. I think I just talked myself into an attempt. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:18:20 +0200 > Francesco Messineo wrote: > > > what would be the best method to try injection locking a butler common > > base crystal oscillator (see figure in > > http://www.eska.dk/oscillator_data.htm for schematic)? > > Any comment about close-in phase noise performance when adding > > injection locking to such oscillators? > > Thanks in advance for any hint. > > Moin, > > I cannot give you performance data, but i can point you at some papers > that deal with injection locking. > > Probably one of the best known papers is from Robert Adler[1]. > It mainly deals with how locking comes to be, what the conditions > for locking are and how to calculate those. > > The other big name in injection locking is Kurokawa Kaneyuki. > His first paper [2] deals, as the title suggests, with noise in > coupled oscillators vs noise in single oscillators. > His second paper [3] deals with injection locking itself, similar > to what Adler did, but with a more "modern" terminology, but also > with more math. > (There are more papers from him on this topic, but i have not had > time to read those) > > Chang et al. did a nice work on locking of multiple oscillators in [4] > and how coupling directions affect them. > > Razavi did a nice rework of earlier findings on injection locking in [5]. > In my opinion, this has one of the easier understandable math in all the > papers i've read on injection locking. Also his liberal use of graphs > simplify the interpretation of the formulas. > > Zhang et al. did a quite nice analysis of noise behavoir of coupled > oscillators in [6]. But my main reason for mentioning it here is > the measurements they made, which might give you an indiciation on where > you might end up with your circuit. > > If you are more on the simulation side, [7] might give you a point to > start how to model injection locking in spice (though, i must say that > is one paper i stumbled upon and probably not the best in that area). > > HTH > > Attila Kinali > > > [1] "A Study of Locking Phenomena in Oscillators", by Robert Adler, 1946 > reprinted in Proceedings of IEEE October 1973 > > [2] "Noise in Synchronized Oscillators", by Kurokawa Kaneyuki, 1968 > > [3] "Injection Locking in Microwave Solid-State Oscillators", by Kurokawa > Kaneyuki, 1973 > > [4] "Phase Noise in Coupled Oscillators: Theory and Experiment", > by Chang, Cao, Mishra and York, 1997 > > [5] "A Study of Injection Locking and Pulling in Oscillators", by Behzad > Razavi, 2004 > > [6] "A Theoretical and Experimental Study of the Noise Behavior of > Subharmonically Injection Locked Local Oscillators", by Zhan, Zhou, > and Daryoush, 1992 > > [7] "Capturing Oscillator Injection Locking via Nonlinear Phase-Domain > Macromodels", > by Lai and Roychowdhury, 2004 > > -- > I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in > the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous > even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being > superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. > -- Sophie Scholl > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:18:20 +0200 Francesco Messineo wrote: > what would be the best method to try injection locking a butler common > base crystal oscillator (see figure in > http://www.eska.dk/oscillator_data.htm for schematic)? > Any comment about close-in phase noise performance when adding > injection locking to such oscillators? > Thanks in advance for any hint. Moin, I cannot give you performance data, but i can point you at some papers that deal with injection locking. Probably one of the best known papers is from Robert Adler[1]. It mainly deals with how locking comes to be, what the conditions for locking are and how to calculate those. The other big name in injection locking is Kurokawa Kaneyuki. His first paper [2] deals, as the title suggests, with noise in coupled oscillators vs noise in single oscillators. His second paper [3] deals with injection locking itself, similar to what Adler did, but with a more "modern" terminology, but also with more math. (There are more papers from him on this topic, but i have not had time to read those) Chang et al. did a nice work on locking of multiple oscillators in [4] and how coupling directions affect them. Razavi did a nice rework of earlier findings on injection locking in [5]. In my opinion, this has one of the easier understandable math in all the papers i've read on injection locking. Also his liberal use of graphs simplify the interpretation of the formulas. Zhang et al. did a quite nice analysis of noise behavoir of coupled oscillators in [6]. But my main reason for mentioning it here is the measurements they made, which might give you an indiciation on where you might end up with your circuit. If you are more on the simulation side, [7] might give you a point to start how to model injection locking in spice (though, i must say that is one paper i stumbled upon and probably not the best in that area). HTH Attila Kinali [1] "A Study of Locking Phenomena in Oscillators", by Robert Adler, 1946 reprinted in Proceedings of IEEE October 1973 [2] "Noise in Synchronized Oscillators", by Kurokawa Kaneyuki, 1968 [3] "Injection Locking in Microwave Solid-State Oscillators", by Kurokawa Kaneyuki, 1973 [4] "Phase Noise in Coupled Oscillators: Theory and Experiment", by Chang, Cao, Mishra and York, 1997 [5] "A Study of Injection Locking and Pulling in Oscillators", by Behzad Razavi, 2004 [6] "A Theoretical and Experimental Study of the Noise Behavior of Subharmonically Injection Locked Local Oscillators", by Zhan, Zhou, and Daryoush, 1992 [7] "Capturing Oscillator Injection Locking via Nonlinear Phase-Domain Macromodels", by Lai and Roychowdhury, 2004 -- I pity people who can't find laughter or at least some bit of amusement in the little doings of the day. I believe I could find something ridiculous even in the saddest moment, if necessary. It has nothing to do with being superficial. It's a matter of joy in life. -- Sophie Scholl ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
Dear Francesco, Connect the two oscillators to a mixer, which will provide a path into the clock under test and provide a beat note for monitoring. Adjust the EFC and observe the locking width, when the beat note is missing. Cheers, Magnus On 06/24/2014 09:18 PM, Francesco Messineo wrote: Hi all, what would be the best method to try injection locking a butler common base crystal oscillator (see figure in http://www.eska.dk/oscillator_data.htm for schematic)? Any comment about close-in phase noise performance when adding injection locking to such oscillators? Thanks in advance for any hint. Frank ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] quartz oscillator injection locking
Hi all, what would be the best method to try injection locking a butler common base crystal oscillator (see figure in http://www.eska.dk/oscillator_data.htm for schematic)? Any comment about close-in phase noise performance when adding injection locking to such oscillators? Thanks in advance for any hint. Frank ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
