Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
Dear all A potted history. Before I start a warning I suffer from dyslexia and twitter like a buddie, not a god combination. The aim of the effort in writting this is to forge a way forward to get young people involved with the concept of time and the recording of it. Hence www.timemachinefun.com . Also to preserve the industrial heritage. Another sad day, yesturday, an important shortts derivate 'frequency standard' went under the hammer. I hope the buyer realises what they have brought and need to be done to record and preserve this clock/oscillator. Its quite a while ago that the pendulum was used as an oscillator. In fact it was a triple shortts pendulum clock that helped develop quartz oscillators, in the bell insititute. They needed a 'rock solid' (gravity) reference and at the time the Shortts clock was it. The pendulum, giving low frequency oscillation, was a mass and a rod. Temperature compensation was soon realised and too the affect of humidity and air pressure. The other major problem was circular error. So low amplitude, in a vacumm! The other compromise, how to keep the pendulum going, so it acted like a pure pendulum. It took 300 years of history to think outside the box, a free pendulum, first in production the Shortts clock, retailed by synchronome. When the first one was formed it went up the the Royal Astro of the time. He first measured the gravity of the earth, over the month the moon, then the sun, then the flux due to the wobble of the earth. They knew they had struck gold, but it was the end of the pendulum. These elements could be compensated for, but not controllable, they needed something to beat, that was independent of the solar system and something a bit quicker than parts of a second. The rest is history. If you did compensate for variation of the solar system, you would just peel another layer off, you would have to cater for any mass (all mass has gravity), even a rain drop or us. We have a Huws model of the shorts clock in the TimeMachineFun museum and other technology advances, towards synchronisation of society. Just got on display the BBC 1960 crystal oscillator. We take time and frequency synchronisation for granted, without it the whole fabric of society would revert back to a much distant time. A time you could walk around London, go from church to church, take 30 minutes to do so and the time was the same on both dials. From the mechanical age, to electric, broadcast, electronic and computer, we have now divided time so precise and small, its atomic. Again in the computer age its the division of time that holds us back, also making smaller and smaller circuits, running at highwer and higher frequencies. Its not steam trains colliding, or data on bus's its messing around with groups of particles. From solar system to crystal and now atomic, we still dont measure time at all. It cant be measured, we measure the dynamic behaviour of 'things' within time, not time itself. To measure you need to take a measure, the rules of a measurement minimal change to what is being measured. We could have a billion frequency standards in an area, and apart from increasing the density of mass in the area, we would not change time. (The assumption is you dont compress the thunderbolts so dense that you have to use the special rules of relativity) The concept of time if an oditity, its the same at all points, but the universe is like measuring jelly with an elastic band! The universe is expanding at the speed of light, we sit within the ring of this, we rotate, the solar system does, as do the gallaxies. The concept of any measure thus becomes problematic, as even the centre of the orginal super mass, at the start of the big bang, might not be the current assumed center, this relies on uniform expansion. So is there a reference frame that can be used, other than two perspectives, or more. Forces come in pairs as well, frames come in pairs, but time? Unipolar and uniform? To end this potted note on the pendulum, there is something called pendulum sympathy. The mass of one pendulum, close to another will mutually effect each other. The pendulum has had it, regards the recording of time, but it is fantastic in education to open up pandoras box, what is gravity and what is energy, we know the latter becomes mass and a force that is left over in this loop of energy, gravity. Without it nothing would attract, we would have a universe of uniformity, nothing would join! It is vital that we preserve the journey, how we attempted to first record the passing of time, to the synchronisation of society, to the future and beyond. Nyquist to quote, the highest frequency of the plant, means the sample time is half this, to be controllable, in a causual system. This is challenged by predictive control, that if you had a model so good, you could not tell it from plant, you could vary time and also make time run in parallel
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
Nice reference thanks for those Stanley...interesting, thought provoking reading! Moving apart and possibly changining the relative positions of the plane of the swing too to test the coupling. There are ways of measuring this if you have the time :-)) My thought was that even an uncoupled set might move closer together if all subject to the same external impulse? Alan - Original Message - From: Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:19 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 That would not explain the lessing of the effect as the clocks are moved father from each other or arranged as sides of a triangle. Maybe gravity between the pendulums or more likely vibrations. http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Synchronization http://www.siam.org/pdf/news/481.pdf http://www.bhi.co.uk/hj/Coupled%20Pendulums%20Quadrature%20and%20Clocks%20by%20John%20Haine.pdf http://www.ralph-abraham.org/articles/MS%2344.Resonance/ms44.pdf Stanley - Original Message From: Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 7:12:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 Is it possible that mechanical (pendulum) clocks could couple not due to energy transfer between the clocks but external mechanical events such as seismic events of a very low level ?? or even gravitational or lunar gravitational effects.?? Maybe the same for water clocks ?? Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Christopher Hoover c...@murgatroid.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 On 5/12/2010 10:41 AM, Jim Lux wrote: It never occurred to me that they might couple, although almost every other mechanical clock does. What would the mechanism be? Perhaps if all of them run off the same reservoir ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:09:02AM +0100, Alan Melia wrote: Nice reference thanks for those Stanley...interesting, thought provoking reading! Moving apart and possibly changining the relative positions of the plane of the swing too to test the coupling. There are ways of measuring this if you have the time :-)) My thought was that even an uncoupled set might move closer together if all subject to the same external impulse? With physical oscillators coupling is limited by the speed of sound (in the medium, with pendulum clocks wood is lots quicker than air with 3-4 km/s) with electronic oscillators the speed of light. Latter means that their distance has to be short enough so that they lie within each other's lightcone within roughly the period of oscillation orelse they couldn't possibly causally influence each other. At THz half light cone is some 0.3 mm, GHz is about 0.3 m, MHz 300 m, kHz 300 km. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
Hi If gravity effects are the coupling mechanism, then even pendulums are speed of light coupled. Bob On May 13, 2010, at 7:13 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:09:02AM +0100, Alan Melia wrote: Nice reference thanks for those Stanley...interesting, thought provoking reading! Moving apart and possibly changining the relative positions of the plane of the swing too to test the coupling. There are ways of measuring this if you have the time :-)) My thought was that even an uncoupled set might move closer together if all subject to the same external impulse? With physical oscillators coupling is limited by the speed of sound (in the medium, with pendulum clocks wood is lots quicker than air with 3-4 km/s) with electronic oscillators the speed of light. Latter means that their distance has to be short enough so that they lie within each other's lightcone within roughly the period of oscillation orelse they couldn't possibly causally influence each other. At THz half light cone is some 0.3 mm, GHz is about 0.3 m, MHz 300 m, kHz 300 km. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 07:22:03AM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If gravity effects are the coupling mechanism, then even pendulums are speed of light coupled. February 1665 Huygens discovered the effect with pendulums locked in 50 kg wooden boxes coupling over a wooden beam (he was sick, and had nothing else to do but watch the clocks), a few weeks later experimentally he verified it was vibration (in fact, if you do the experiment you'll discover the vibration is very visible). Presumably, very heavy mechanical oscillators in a vacuum completely isolated from vibration would couple gravitationally. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
Like other environmental effects this external impulse would have to have a precise period to move a set of non-synced clocks toward sync otherwise it is just noise. If the impulse is strong then it becomes the clock, or if it is precise again it is the clock, otherwise it is noise the clock maker would like to remove. This reminds me of chaos theory clocks tend toward random periods. Stanley - Original Message From: Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 5:09:02 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 Nice reference thanks for those Stanley...interesting, thought provoking reading! Moving apart and possibly changining the relative positions of the plane of the swing too to test the coupling. There are ways of measuring this if you have the time :-)) My thought was that even an uncoupled set might move closer together if all subject to the same external impulse? Alan - Original Message - From: Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:19 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 That would not explain the lessing of the effect as the clocks are moved father from each other or arranged as sides of a triangle. Maybe gravity between the pendulums or more likely vibrations. http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Synchronization http://www.siam.org/pdf/news/481.pdf http://www.bhi.co.uk/hj/Coupled%20Pendulums%20Quadrature%20and%20Clocks%20by%20John%20Haine.pdf http://www.ralph-abraham.org/articles/MS%2344.Resonance/ms44.pdf Stanley - Original Message From: Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 7:12:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 Is it possible that mechanical (pendulum) clocks could couple not due to energy transfer between the clocks but external mechanical events such as seismic events of a very low level ?? or even gravitational or lunar gravitational effects.?? Maybe the same for water clocks ?? Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Christopher Hoover c...@murgatroid.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 On 5/12/2010 10:41 AM, Jim Lux wrote: It never occurred to me that they might couple, although almost every other mechanical clock does. What would the mechanism be? Perhaps if all of them run off the same reservoir ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
On 5/12/2010 10:41 AM, Jim Lux wrote: It never occurred to me that they might couple, although almost every other mechanical clock does. What would the mechanism be? Perhaps if all of them run off the same reservoir ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
Is it possible that mechanical (pendulum) clocks could couple not due to energy transfer between the clocks but external mechanical events such as seismic events of a very low level ?? or even gravitational or lunar gravitational effects.?? Maybe the same for water clocks ?? Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Christopher Hoover c...@murgatroid.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 On 5/12/2010 10:41 AM, Jim Lux wrote: It never occurred to me that they might couple, although almost every other mechanical clock does. What would the mechanism be? Perhaps if all of them run off the same reservoir ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31
That would not explain the lessing of the effect as the clocks are moved father from each other or arranged as sides of a triangle. Maybe gravity between the pendulums or more likely vibrations. http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Synchronization http://www.siam.org/pdf/news/481.pdf http://www.bhi.co.uk/hj/Coupled%20Pendulums%20Quadrature%20and%20Clocks%20by%20John%20Haine.pdf http://www.ralph-abraham.org/articles/MS%2344.Resonance/ms44.pdf Stanley - Original Message From: Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 7:12:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 Is it possible that mechanical (pendulum) clocks could couple not due to energy transfer between the clocks but external mechanical events such as seismic events of a very low level ?? or even gravitational or lunar gravitational effects.?? Maybe the same for water clocks ?? Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Christopher Hoover c...@murgatroid.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31 On 5/12/2010 10:41 AM, Jim Lux wrote: It never occurred to me that they might couple, although almost every other mechanical clock does. What would the mechanism be? Perhaps if all of them run off the same reservoir ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
