Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hi Doing something similar in the mid 1960's we noticed that the local power company did time correction just ahead oft 5 pm. You could start listening to the time ticks on WWV or CHU at 4 pm and see them do the correction over the hour. For what ever reason their daily correction was at least a couple seconds. In a few cases people reported stuff at > 5 seconds. Bob On Jul 3, 2011, at 10:54 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > Here's yet another way to monitor power line timekeeping... > > This is about half a day from a webcam, taken at 15 minute > intervals by a PC, compressed to a 12 second animated GIF. > > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tec/mains-clock-ani.gif > > /tvb > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
At 09:54 PM 7/3/2011, Tom Van Baak wrote: This is about half a day from a webcam, taken at 15 minute intervals by a PC, compressed to a 12 second animated GIF. http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tec/mains-clock-ani.gif That's funny...I picked up a mains clock yesterday and started something similar. I've got a WWVB clock in the field of view, snapping pics at 1 minute intervals while I work the bugs out. I've learned that Timershot isn't accurate enough for good timelapse work. -- newell N5TNL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Here's yet another way to monitor power line timekeeping... This is about half a day from a webcam, taken at 15 minute intervals by a PC, compressed to a 12 second animated GIF. http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tec/mains-clock-ani.gif /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hi Kasper, Your picture shows what looks like a battery, but I do not see that included on the schematic ? This seems overly complicated seeing as how there are opto-couplers designed for this purpose. They even have Schmitt trigger functions incorporated. All in a 8 pin dip style package designed to provide separation and protection. BillWB6BNQ Kasper Pedersen wrote: > On 06/25/2011 09:34 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > > We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so > > here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me > > on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you > > can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to > > get interesting plots. > > > > Here is what I have used with far better success than transformers. For > some reason the transformers I get hold of have quite large phase error > (ie. they are cheap and get warm). > > http://wap.taur.dk/zcd/sch.jpg > http://wap.taur.dk/zcd/plug.jpg > > Cp has the dual role of killing RF, and compensating for the H->L > threshold of the HC14. It sits on the hot side, and charges up through > the protection diodes for the next 200us pulse. > It will drive 10m of POF. > Substitute an opto coupler of choice if you need less isolation. > > /Kasper Pedersen > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 06/25/2011 09:34 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so > here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me > on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you > can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to > get interesting plots. > Here is what I have used with far better success than transformers. For some reason the transformers I get hold of have quite large phase error (ie. they are cheap and get warm). http://wap.taur.dk/zcd/sch.jpg http://wap.taur.dk/zcd/plug.jpg Cp has the dual role of killing RF, and compensating for the H->L threshold of the HC14. It sits on the hot side, and charges up through the protection diodes for the next 200us pulse. It will drive 10m of POF. Substitute an opto coupler of choice if you need less isolation. /Kasper Pedersen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
At the suggestion of another member of the list I added a low pass filter to the input of the HP5370B and I also connected the door bell transformer to an un shared branch circuit. After making these changes noise in the readings seems to have gone away. - Original Message From: Jim Lux To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 9:34:36 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party On 6/27/11 9:43 AM, Mark Spencer wrote: > I'm not sure if the results I am seeing are valid or not. My signal source > is a 16 volt doorbell transformer that feeds a voltage divider which in turn > feeds my 5370B with an approx 2 volt sine wave. Setting the trigger point on > the 5370B to 0 volts appears to provide the best results and the sine wave from > the voltage divider looks to be clean on my scope. But I'm wondering if >changes > in line voltage could be confusing things. > That's sort of why I was thinking of the sound card approach.. you sample it, fit a sinusoid, and get the zero crossing time from the parametric fit. Doorbell transformers have a lot of leakage inductance to limit the current (so that shorting the output doesn't burn it up) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 6/27/11 9:43 AM, Mark Spencer wrote: I'm not sure if the results I am seeing are valid or not.My signal source is a 16 volt doorbell transformer that feeds a voltage divider which in turn feeds my 5370B with an approx 2 volt sine wave. Setting the trigger point on the 5370B to 0 volts appears to provide the best results and the sine wave from the voltage divider looks to be clean on my scope. But I'm wondering if changes in line voltage could be confusing things. That's sort of why I was thinking of the sound card approach.. you sample it, fit a sinusoid, and get the zero crossing time from the parametric fit. Doorbell transformers have a lot of leakage inductance to limit the current (so that shorting the output doesn't burn it up) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 12:34:41PM -0700, Tom Van Baak wrote: > We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so > here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me > on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you > can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to > get interesting plots. It will be interesting to see of there is any difference after Jult 14 when Time Error Correction Elimination is stopped for testing. http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Mark, Transients, etc, might cause some hiccups, as I thought about this too. Plus, there's not much one can do about them, unless you look at what happened via a waveform, at the time. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 9:43 AM Mark Spencer wrote: >I once worked on a project in India where we had electrical problems that went away when reportedly the building owners watered the building ground system. I never got an explanation if there was supposed to be a functional neutral connection or if the ground system was serving as the neutral. To get back on the 60 Hz measurement topic, I tried measuring the phase difference between the 60 Hz line here in BC and the 1pps output of my thunderbolt and a sample of the results are shown in the attached file. I'm not sure if the results I am seeing are valid or not. My signal source is a 16 volt doorbell transformer that feeds a voltage divider which in turn feeds my 5370B with an approx 2 volt sine wave. Setting the trigger point on the 5370B to 0 volts appears to provide the best results and the sine wave from the voltage divider looks to be clean on my scope. But I'm wondering if changes in line voltage could be confusing things. Regards Mark Spencer - Original Message From: Morris Odell To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:31:26 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party > >mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth > (dirt) as a > >return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Down here in Australia, Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) is common for long rural lines. They run at 12.7 kv (one phase of a 22 kv 3 phase line). At the consumer end there is a pole mounted transformer and a fenced off earth stake. It seems to work reasonably well even in dry conditions but you occasionally hear stories of a large quadruped coming to nasty end if they get inside the enclosure. Obviously there would be a radial potential field in the ground and on the surface and quite a voltage can develop across their legs. Morris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
That made me laugh, as unsightly and farm seems to go well together (no matter how you keep it cleaned up)! Wonder what he would have done, if after he pulled the grounds, that he found a prized horse dead from electrocution? One thing about here in the US, well at least now, and after having the NEC, is that an installation can't get past inspection without a ground rod at the meter, and most times one at the pole too. Plus, if you have copper or steel water pipe in the house, it's connected to gorund, and any natural gas system piping is connected to a ground rod at its meter, or it should be. One would think that the earths resistance, especially in a dry climate, would be too high to work correctly, at all, without having a neutral and ground running with the hot. I would think you would get a lot of brown-outs over this? I learn something new every day. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/27/2011 at 12:02 PM Lee Mushel wrote: >Well, I guess my response to your invitation to comment won't be any worse >than "pip" time. I live in a rural area where this so-called "stray >voltage" was a problem for years. I guess no "real electrician" ever said >anything because everyone was certain that a solution to such an obvious >problem would be known to everyone "tomorrow." But it never happened! >And this so-called "mystery" went on for years! And one day I got a phone >call from my neighbor, "horse Bob" saying that his horses couldn't drink >from the water tank. He was certain that they were receiving a "shock" as >soon as their noses touched the water. > >I went down to his "paddock" and installed enough grounds to overcome the >general lack of such on his property and then went home. The horses were >drinking normally. A couple of hours later he called and said "the problem >is back." A puzzled me went for another visit and discovered that he had >removed all of my grounding provisions. When I asked him why he had done >that I was informed that "those wires and rods are unsightly." > >Lee K9WRU >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robert LaJeunesse" >To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > >Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:23 AM >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party > > >> Hmmm. The "Single Wire Earth Return" scheme seems like a great cause for >> the >> stray voltage that affects farmers: >> >> http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748 >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Eric Garner >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party >> >> Did it sound like this: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Well, I guess my response to your invitation to comment won't be any worse than "pip" time. I live in a rural area where this so-called "stray voltage" was a problem for years. I guess no "real electrician" ever said anything because everyone was certain that a solution to such an obvious problem would be known to everyone "tomorrow." But it never happened! And this so-called "mystery" went on for years! And one day I got a phone call from my neighbor, "horse Bob" saying that his horses couldn't drink from the water tank. He was certain that they were receiving a "shock" as soon as their noses touched the water. I went down to his "paddock" and installed enough grounds to overcome the general lack of such on his property and then went home. The horses were drinking normally. A couple of hours later he called and said "the problem is back." A puzzled me went for another visit and discovered that he had removed all of my grounding provisions. When I asked him why he had done that I was informed that "those wires and rods are unsightly." Lee K9WRU - Original Message - From: "Robert LaJeunesse" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party Hmmm. The "Single Wire Earth Return" scheme seems like a great cause for the stray voltage that affects farmers: http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748 ________ From: Eric Garner To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party Did it sound like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hmmm. The "Single Wire Earth Return" scheme seems like a great cause for the stray voltage that affects farmers: http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748 From: Eric Garner To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party Did it sound like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Did it sound like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 7:14 PM, WB6BNQ wrote: > Will, > > OK, that sounds normal to me. Originally, your first description made it > seem as > something completely different. > > I see nothing wrong with what you are now describing. The fact that they are > feeding short blocks via the "REAR ALLEY" from the main street is not unheard > of. And using just 2 wires is fine as there is no need to run a third wire if > you are not going to use it. Similar arrangements can be seen up in the San > Francisco bay area in the old neighborhoods as they were laid out with the old > East Coast thinking from well over a century ago. > > I am glad to see that they are not too backwards in your part of the country. > > billWB6BNQ > > > Will Matney wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one >> time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm >> not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under >> the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system, with >> ground, they have running, and they feed about a two block stretch behind >> two rows of houses (along our back yards). The insulated neutral is >> carried, or supported, by an uninsulated aluminum cable, or ground, between >> the poles. Actually, it's what they use to attach it to the side of the >> pole with. There is a small spiral wire that wraps around the insulated >> neutral and ground, and holds the two together in a bundle. In other words, >> counting the hot on top of the pole, there would be three wires, a neutral, >> ground, and a hot. They bug onto the neutral directly from the transformers >> primary, and to the hot, on top of the pole, through the blow out fuse. Of >> course the seconday carries the normal 220-110 Vac single phase into the >> home, and that ground runs down the pole to a ground rod, which is also >> tied to the ground (that runs with the neutral) from pole to pole, and is >> attached to a ground rod at the home too. >> >> No, if they tried to use the earth as a return, that would be really bad >> news, it's ground only. What they do here, is down by the highway, they >> have a larger transformer, hooked to the three phase main line, that feeds >> these different single phase lines to the rows of homes. About every row >> goes to its own transformer at the end of the line, as I have been without >> power, or my whole row has, and the row of houses in front of me, across >> the street, and behind me, across that street, have power. That in turn >> means that the fuse has opened down at the highway, at that transformer >> bank, over a short up this line somewhere, generally due to a tree limb >> making contact with the hot on the top of the pole. >> >> I don't have a photo of the pole here, but all we have is a pole with a >> single insulator on the tip top. It has no means of carrying multiple hots >> like you describe on arms, for the three phases. Just below the hot, about >> two feet down the pole, is where the ground and neutral run. That is also >> about the top of the transformers that feed the homes here. The only thing >> we have that set up like your speaking of is down by the highway. You would >> have to know AEP, as they are bad to undersize everything, especially >> transformers. Here, they had five houses running off a transformer meant >> for two, or three at the most, until it finally gave out. I complained, >> they sent up a supreviser, and they upsized it, and we've had no more >> trouble. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/26/2011 at 5:52 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >> >> ?Will, >> ? >> ?What you describe does NOT make sense. When you say nuetral or ground do >> you >> ?mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth >> (dirt) as a >> ?return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Equally, if the 220 >> center >> ?tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary >> side of >> ?the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return >> path >> ?gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer >> are >> ?still connected. >> ? >> ?If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide >> a very >> ?reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run. >> ? >> ?Just how long are these single wire runs ? Do you know what the voltage >> is on >> ?that top wire ? >> ? >> ?Could you clarify this a bit more ? >> ? >> ?BillWB6BNQ >> ? >> ? >> ?Will Matney wrote: >> ? >> ?? Bill, >> ?? >> ?? I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where >> the >> ?? general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the >> Huntington, >> ?? WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your >> ?? thinking of, all through
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Morris Odell wrote: > > I love this thread on the old style large synchronous motors. My first > engineering job was in a paper mill where they had quite a few of them on > various machines including the Ward Leonard sets that controlled the paper > machines. We were continually tweaking the excitation to try and get the > overall power factor down... > > Morris > That sure brought back memories. I grew up in a little town with a large paper mill and I well remember, as a pre-teen, admiring the huge motors that powered the Fourdrinier machines and listening as the tour guide explained that they were synchronous motors and kept the machines running at a constant speed. Also exciting and mysterious were the enormous Jordan machines that reduced the size of pulp fibers. Giant, rapidly-spinning cones (driven by really big DC motors) that made a sound like all the flying saucers on Mars landing at once. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
> >mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth > (dirt) as a > >return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Down here in Australia, Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) is common for long rural lines. They run at 12.7 kv (one phase of a 22 kv 3 phase line). At the consumer end there is a pole mounted transformer and a fenced off earth stake. It seems to work reasonably well even in dry conditions but you occasionally hear stories of a large quadruped coming to nasty end if they get inside the enclosure. Obviously there would be a radial potential field in the ground and on the surface and quite a voltage can develop across their legs. Morris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
> > That sounds like a recipe for excitement - DC current into seawater > should generate hydrogen on one and and oxygen on the other electrode. > At 3000 amps, rather a lot of it. > > > > I imagine they keep the current density low enough that the gas is > absorbed into the water as it's evolved. But yes.. a fascinating > concept. ** Actually if you electrolyse salt water with DC you get Hydrogen & Chlorine at the electrodes and sodium hydroxide dissolved in the water. That's how salt water pool chlorinators work and why the pool get progressively alkaline and needs to have hydrochloric acid added regularly to make up for what's released by electrolytic action. Hopefully if it gets released in the ocean the Cl2 gets reabsorbed quickly and the caustic soda gets diluted or buffered. The H2 would end up in the atmosphere as it's not very water soluble. I love this thread on the old style large synchronous motors. My first engineering job was in a paper mill where they had quite a few of them on various machines including the Ward Leonard sets that controlled the paper machines. We were continually tweaking the excitation to try and get the overall power factor down... Morris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hi Jim, I was studying that area in Google Earth. There is detail for under water objects near the shore line. There are some objects that look like troughs in ocean floor just south of the location that are grouped in pairs. Taking a measure from the first pair does place it about 6000 feet from the shore line near where the vault is suppose to be. The location of the first pair is : 34d 01' 23.04" N 118d 32' 49.40" W >From the first pair, the rest run in a line southward on the 120 degree radial for about 6000 feet. If these are not the intended target then they are certainly interesting deformations. There seems to be three sets of these as you will see two other lines of similar deformation pairs. What do you think ? ? ? BillWB6BNQ Jim Lux wrote: > On 6/26/11 8:23 PM, Jim Lux wrote: > > ? I just have to look for a set of towers with a single duplex cable. > ? > ? (actually a bit of googling found a report > ? > ? www.kentercanyon.org/index.php/download-public-docs/doc/25/raw > ? > ? ) > > OK.. the electrodes are about a mile off shore from Gladstone's-4-Fish > on PCH (for those of you familiar with the area). The onshore vault is > in their parking lot. > > I wonder what it looks like, and how deep the water is? ANd whether one > would want to dive there when it's turned on? > > Fascinating.. it runs 20 hours a year.. > > There's a some folks concerned about the overhead line going near/over a > school. I'll bet they didn't actually know the line is unenergized > virtually all the time. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
In message <201106270013470285.1b239...@smtp.citynet.net>, "Will Matney" writes : >Here's another thought on all of this. How will this effect the newer >electronic watthour meters at peoples homes? I remember looking at the >schematics on one of these, and I don't remember seeing an internal time >base, crystal, or resonator in the circuit, so I suppose they might get >their timing from the 60 Hz line. Modern microcontrollers contain a on-chip resonator, typically 8MHz, which is surprisingly stable, often a lot more stable than the mains frequency. Electricity meters are usually only precise to 1 or 2%. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
In message <4e07f7c7.9070...@earthlink.net>, Jim Lux writes: >> That sounds like a recipe for excitement - DC current into >> seawater should generate hydrogen on one and and oxygen on the other >> electrode. At 3000 amps, rather a lot of it. Actually you get chlorine gas at one end, can't remember which. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Here's another thought on all of this. How will this effect the newer electronic watthour meters at peoples homes? I remember looking at the schematics on one of these, and I don't remember seeing an internal time base, crystal, or resonator in the circuit, so I suppose they might get their timing from the 60 Hz line. Lets say that the frequency is slowed a small amount, and over the year, they lose a little, which amounts to pocket change per customer they lost, but multiply that by all the people using it, well that's a lot of saw bucks. Also, if it was the reverse, and the frequency was sped up by a small amount, that might translate into paying out more, as I'm not sure exactly how those new meters work. The only way I could see this happening, would be that the meters were not using an internal timebase of some sort, thus depending on the line frequency for timing, and raising and lowering with the line frequency over a time period. Any thoughts on this? Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 8:02 PM Tom Van Baak wrote: >> As for monitoring 60 Hz, I was doing some on line research, and found some interesting power line frequency meters at: >> >> http://www.laurels.com/frequency.htm >> >> Surprisingly affordable (less than $300). >> >> Tom Frank > >For this experiment you want an [accumulated] phase error meter, >not a line frequency meter. Remember, NERC is not dramatically >changing the 60 Hz frequency; the proposal is simply to eliminate >the steering that used to keep the cycles roughly aligned with UTC. > >So a 3 or 4 or 5 digit sampling frequency counter will not reveal >the change. But over hours or days a mains connected kitchen >clock compared with your cell phone, will. In general, to see the >effect, you want something that faithfully tracks the phase and >compares it to a reference that's at least 1 ppm accurate. > >Another approach, the one I use, is to continuously compare >60 Hz phase against UTC using a TIC, handling rollovers, etc. > >/tvb > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 6/26/11 8:23 PM, Jim Lux wrote: I just have to look for a set of towers with a single duplex cable. (actually a bit of googling found a report www.kentercanyon.org/index.php/download-public-docs/doc/25/raw ) OK.. the electrodes are about a mile off shore from Gladstone's-4-Fish on PCH (for those of you familiar with the area). The onshore vault is in their parking lot. I wonder what it looks like, and how deep the water is? ANd whether one would want to dive there when it's turned on? Fascinating.. it runs 20 hours a year.. There's a some folks concerned about the overhead line going near/over a school. I'll bet they didn't actually know the line is unenergized virtually all the time. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party- big sync motors
Bill, I never did set back and think why they used them, but that would make sense. The new plant engineer they hired, during my time there, talked them into installing a new power house (air compressor system) in the paint department. However, he had ordered screw compressors, running on 460 V, 3 phase motors. He was cursed by every electrician on that job over the big cables that had to be pulled for the current they consumed. I also wondered if it could have had something to do with the starting torque of the sync motors over induction motors. Those old compressors had flywheels on them almost the diameter of the motors that ran them, and it would take a huge amount of torque to set them to turning, especially when the compressor was pumping into a pipe full of compressed air. It would be about like trying to start or run the engine in your car with the tail pipe stopped up. Thanks, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 10:12 PM Bill Hawkins wrote: >Will, and the rest of you fascinated by power distribution, > >A big synchronous motor allows its power factor to be changed by >changing the field current for a given load. The motor can be >adjusted to look like a resistive load instead of inductive, or >even capacitive to correct plant power factor. Look it up. > >Industrial power consumers are charged extra for power factors >less than unity because the distribution system must carry more >current for the same watts as the power factor departs from >unity. > >Induction motors have inductive power factors because there must >be slip between the rotating field and the speed of the rotor. >Synchronous motors don't have slip, just phase angle. Zero angle >looks like a resistive load, yes? > >The compressors don't have to run in sync. > >Best, >Bill Hawkins >(who heaves a nostalgic sigh just thinking about those fine old > engines of progress) > >-Original Message- >From: Will Matney >Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 1:11 PM >To: time-nuts@febo.com >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party > >I quite like your generator description of "huge rotating lumps of >copper-ensnarled iron". It brings me back to around 20 years ago, when I >was a plant electrician at an older railcar manufacturer. They had huge >open-frame synchronous motors, from around the 1930's, that ran their air >compressors, and why they used this type of motor is anybodies guess. If I >remember right, they were rated at around 200 HP, or so, and were about 8 >feet in diameter. The rotor shaft was mounted on huge babbit bearings upon >concrete pillars, and about 1/3 of the motor sat in a pit in the concrete >floor. I used to have to repair the brushes on the slip rings constantly, >until I talked the boss into adding a shunt across the n.o. contacts on the >250 Vdc contactors to quench any arcing. The motors stator itself ran on >4160 Vac. Would the other compressors have to run in sync somehow, as all >of them had these motors, just some a little smaller than the others? They >drove large single cylinder compressors that fed something like a 6 inch >air line (pipe). However, they all did not run at once, and they only did >when there was a larger demand for air. Timing is the only thing I can lay >this to, and was wondering about it. > >Best, > >Will > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 6/26/11 6:29 PM, Thomas A Frank wrote: On Jun 25, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Jim Lux wrote: although it's a lot easier if one of the links is down and they're running with the ocean return path. Ocean return path? Please say more. I picture a gigantic carbon electrode stuck in the ocean by a power station - rather like the core of a really large "D" cell. Not far from the truth, actually.. cast iron electrodes at the north end buried in a 2 mile diameter ring. iron alloy electrodes in concrete in the ocean at the south end.. Electrodes : At Celilo : the ground electrode is located 10.6 km from the converter station, in Rice Flates. The electrode is designed as a ring type 3255 m circumference, 1067 cast iron anodes, and 2' X 2' coke backfill is used. Total resistance in 2 parallel electrode lines and ground electrode = 0.43 ohms. At Sylmar : the sea electrode is located 48 km from the converter station, in the Pacific Ocean and consists of a linear array of 24 horizontal electrode elements made up of silicon-iron alloy rods suspended 0.5 to 1 m above the ocean bottom and located within concrete enclosures. Total resistance in 2 parallel electrode lines and sea electrode = 1.13 ohms. That sounds like a recipe for excitement - DC current into seawater should generate hydrogen on one and and oxygen on the other electrode. At 3000 amps, rather a lot of it. I imagine they keep the current density low enough that the gas is absorbed into the water as it's evolved. But yes.. a fascinating concept. And I'm curious where, exactly, that DC line to the ocean runs. (since I live between Sylmar and the ocean, as do about 10 million other people) I guess I can draw a circle of radius 48km from Sylmar.. At Sylmar : 2 X 644 mm2 ACSR conductors in parallel are used for the first 35 km, supported by the 230 kV line towers. For the remaining 13 km, two parallel paper-insulated underground cables are used, each with a 633 mm2 Cu-conductor. I just have to look for a set of towers with a single duplex cable. (actually a bit of googling found a report www.kentercanyon.org/index.php/download-public-docs/doc/25/raw ) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party- big sync motors
Will, and the rest of you fascinated by power distribution, A big synchronous motor allows its power factor to be changed by changing the field current for a given load. The motor can be adjusted to look like a resistive load instead of inductive, or even capacitive to correct plant power factor. Look it up. Industrial power consumers are charged extra for power factors less than unity because the distribution system must carry more current for the same watts as the power factor departs from unity. Induction motors have inductive power factors because there must be slip between the rotating field and the speed of the rotor. Synchronous motors don't have slip, just phase angle. Zero angle looks like a resistive load, yes? The compressors don't have to run in sync. Best, Bill Hawkins (who heaves a nostalgic sigh just thinking about those fine old engines of progress) -Original Message- From: Will Matney Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 1:11 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party I quite like your generator description of "huge rotating lumps of copper-ensnarled iron". It brings me back to around 20 years ago, when I was a plant electrician at an older railcar manufacturer. They had huge open-frame synchronous motors, from around the 1930's, that ran their air compressors, and why they used this type of motor is anybodies guess. If I remember right, they were rated at around 200 HP, or so, and were about 8 feet in diameter. The rotor shaft was mounted on huge babbit bearings upon concrete pillars, and about 1/3 of the motor sat in a pit in the concrete floor. I used to have to repair the brushes on the slip rings constantly, until I talked the boss into adding a shunt across the n.o. contacts on the 250 Vdc contactors to quench any arcing. The motors stator itself ran on 4160 Vac. Would the other compressors have to run in sync somehow, as all of them had these motors, just some a little smaller than the others? They drove large single cylinder compressors that fed something like a 6 inch air line (pipe). However, they all did not run at once, and they only did when there was a larger demand for air. Timing is the only thing I can lay this to, and was wondering about it. Best, Will ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
As for monitoring 60 Hz, I was doing some on line research, and found some interesting power line frequency meters at: http://www.laurels.com/frequency.htm Surprisingly affordable (less than $300). Tom Frank For this experiment you want an [accumulated] phase error meter, not a line frequency meter. Remember, NERC is not dramatically changing the 60 Hz frequency; the proposal is simply to eliminate the steering that used to keep the cycles roughly aligned with UTC. So a 3 or 4 or 5 digit sampling frequency counter will not reveal the change. But over hours or days a mains connected kitchen clock compared with your cell phone, will. In general, to see the effect, you want something that faithfully tracks the phase and compares it to a reference that's at least 1 ppm accurate. Another approach, the one I use, is to continuously compare 60 Hz phase against UTC using a TIC, handling rollovers, etc. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Will, OK, that sounds normal to me. Originally, your first description made it seem as something completely different. I see nothing wrong with what you are now describing. The fact that they are feeding short blocks via the "REAR ALLEY" from the main street is not unheard of. And using just 2 wires is fine as there is no need to run a third wire if you are not going to use it. Similar arrangements can be seen up in the San Francisco bay area in the old neighborhoods as they were laid out with the old East Coast thinking from well over a century ago. I am glad to see that they are not too backwards in your part of the country. billWB6BNQ Will Matney wrote: > Bill, > > I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one > time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm > not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under > the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system, with > ground, they have running, and they feed about a two block stretch behind > two rows of houses (along our back yards). The insulated neutral is > carried, or supported, by an uninsulated aluminum cable, or ground, between > the poles. Actually, it's what they use to attach it to the side of the > pole with. There is a small spiral wire that wraps around the insulated > neutral and ground, and holds the two together in a bundle. In other words, > counting the hot on top of the pole, there would be three wires, a neutral, > ground, and a hot. They bug onto the neutral directly from the transformers > primary, and to the hot, on top of the pole, through the blow out fuse. Of > course the seconday carries the normal 220-110 Vac single phase into the > home, and that ground runs down the pole to a ground rod, which is also > tied to the ground (that runs with the neutral) from pole to pole, and is > attached to a ground rod at the home too. > > No, if they tried to use the earth as a return, that would be really bad > news, it's ground only. What they do here, is down by the highway, they > have a larger transformer, hooked to the three phase main line, that feeds > these different single phase lines to the rows of homes. About every row > goes to its own transformer at the end of the line, as I have been without > power, or my whole row has, and the row of houses in front of me, across > the street, and behind me, across that street, have power. That in turn > means that the fuse has opened down at the highway, at that transformer > bank, over a short up this line somewhere, generally due to a tree limb > making contact with the hot on the top of the pole. > > I don't have a photo of the pole here, but all we have is a pole with a > single insulator on the tip top. It has no means of carrying multiple hots > like you describe on arms, for the three phases. Just below the hot, about > two feet down the pole, is where the ground and neutral run. That is also > about the top of the transformers that feed the homes here. The only thing > we have that set up like your speaking of is down by the highway. You would > have to know AEP, as they are bad to undersize everything, especially > transformers. Here, they had five houses running off a transformer meant > for two, or three at the most, until it finally gave out. I complained, > they sent up a supreviser, and they upsized it, and we've had no more > trouble. > > Best, > > Will > > *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > > On 6/26/2011 at 5:52 PM WB6BNQ wrote: > > ?Will, > ? > ?What you describe does NOT make sense. When you say nuetral or ground do > you > ?mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth > (dirt) as a > ?return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Equally, if the 220 > center > ?tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary > side of > ?the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return > path > ?gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer > are > ?still connected. > ? > ?If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide > a very > ?reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run. > ? > ?Just how long are these single wire runs ? Do you know what the voltage > is on > ?that top wire ? > ? > ?Could you clarify this a bit more ? > ? > ?BillWB6BNQ > ? > ? > ?Will Matney wrote: > ? > ?? Bill, > ?? > ?? I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where > the > ?? general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the > Huntington, > ?? WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your > ?? thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all > the > ?? way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river. > ?? > ?? I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2 > ?? miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're ri
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Bill, I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system, with ground, they have running, and they feed about a two block stretch behind two rows of houses (along our back yards). The insulated neutral is carried, or supported, by an uninsulated aluminum cable, or ground, between the poles. Actually, it's what they use to attach it to the side of the pole with. There is a small spiral wire that wraps around the insulated neutral and ground, and holds the two together in a bundle. In other words, counting the hot on top of the pole, there would be three wires, a neutral, ground, and a hot. They bug onto the neutral directly from the transformers primary, and to the hot, on top of the pole, through the blow out fuse. Of course the seconday carries the normal 220-110 Vac single phase into the home, and that ground runs down the pole to a ground rod, which is also tied to the ground (that runs with the neutral) from pole to pole, and is attached to a ground rod at the home too. No, if they tried to use the earth as a return, that would be really bad news, it's ground only. What they do here, is down by the highway, they have a larger transformer, hooked to the three phase main line, that feeds these different single phase lines to the rows of homes. About every row goes to its own transformer at the end of the line, as I have been without power, or my whole row has, and the row of houses in front of me, across the street, and behind me, across that street, have power. That in turn means that the fuse has opened down at the highway, at that transformer bank, over a short up this line somewhere, generally due to a tree limb making contact with the hot on the top of the pole. I don't have a photo of the pole here, but all we have is a pole with a single insulator on the tip top. It has no means of carrying multiple hots like you describe on arms, for the three phases. Just below the hot, about two feet down the pole, is where the ground and neutral run. That is also about the top of the transformers that feed the homes here. The only thing we have that set up like your speaking of is down by the highway. You would have to know AEP, as they are bad to undersize everything, especially transformers. Here, they had five houses running off a transformer meant for two, or three at the most, until it finally gave out. I complained, they sent up a supreviser, and they upsized it, and we've had no more trouble. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 5:52 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >Will, > >What you describe does NOT make sense. When you say nuetral or ground do you >mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth (dirt) as a >return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Equally, if the 220 center >tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary side of >the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return path >gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer are >still connected. > >If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide a very >reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run. > >Just how long are these single wire runs ? Do you know what the voltage is on >that top wire ? > >Could you clarify this a bit more ? > >BillWB6BNQ > > >Will Matney wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the >> general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington, >> WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your >> thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the >> way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river. >> >> I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2 >> miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the >> Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot >> wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the >> telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug >> onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of >> the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole, >> if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like >> that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat >> at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along the >> highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all >> residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's >> because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now >> that's
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On Jun 25, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Jim Lux wrote: > although it's a lot easier if one of the links is down and they're running > with the ocean return path. Ocean return path? Please say more. I picture a gigantic carbon electrode stuck in the ocean by a power station - rather like the core of a really large "D" cell. That sounds like a recipe for excitement - DC current into seawater should generate hydrogen on one and and oxygen on the other electrode. At 3000 amps, rather a lot of it. As for monitoring 60 Hz, I was doing some on line research, and found some interesting power line frequency meters at: http://www.laurels.com/frequency.htm Surprisingly affordable (less than $300). Tom Frank ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Will, What you describe does NOT make sense. When you say nuetral or ground do you mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth (dirt) as a return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Equally, if the 220 center tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary side of the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return path gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer are still connected. If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide a very reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run. Just how long are these single wire runs ? Do you know what the voltage is on that top wire ? Could you clarify this a bit more ? BillWB6BNQ Will Matney wrote: > Bill, > > I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the > general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington, > WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your > thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the > way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river. > > I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2 > miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the > Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot > wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the > telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug > onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of > the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole, > if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like > that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat > at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along the > highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all > residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's > because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now > that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in their > place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new homes > the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property by > the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the way > AEP wants to do it. > > Best, > > Will > > ?*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > ? > ?On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote: > ?Will Matney wrote: > ?snip > ?As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads > where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's > only single phase on the poles. > ? > ?Best, > ?Will > ? > ?Will, > ?I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue). In > residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV. > Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via a > transformer. AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower > level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer. > Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from a > transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because there > was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction. > ?The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation. That > is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single > phase) alternately across different phases. > ?At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast ! I realize > there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly > along the East Coast. > ?I am located in San Diego, CA area. What part of the country are you in ? > > ?BillWB6BNQ > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hah, I really mis-spelled industrial didn't I? Sorry folks, the spell check doesn't work on my e-mail now for some odd reason. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 7:55 PM Will Matney wrote: >Bill, > >I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the >general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington, >WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your >thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the >way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river. > >I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2 >miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the >Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot >wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the >telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug >onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of >the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole, >if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like >that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat >at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along the >highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all >residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's >because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now >that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in their >place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new homes >the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property by >the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the way >AEP wants to do it. > >Best, > >Will > >>*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >>On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >>Will Matney wrote: >>snip >>As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads >where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's >only single phase on the poles. >> >>Best, >>Will >> >>Will, >>I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue). In >residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV. >Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via a >transformer. AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower >level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer. >Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from a >transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because there >was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction. >>The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation. That >is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single >phase) alternately across different phases. >>At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast ! I realize >there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly >along the East Coast. >>I am located in San Diego, CA area. What part of the country are you in ? > >>BillWB6BNQ > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Bill, I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington, WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river. I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2 miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole, if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along the highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in their place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new homes the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property by the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the way AEP wants to do it. Best, Will >*** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > >On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote: >Will Matney wrote: >snip >As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's only single phase on the poles. > >Best, >Will > >Will, >I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue). In residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV. Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via a transformer. AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer. Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from a transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because there was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction. >The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation. That is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single phase) alternately across different phases. >At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast ! I realize there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly along the East Coast. >I am located in San Diego, CA area. What part of the country are you in ? >BillWB6BNQ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
In Australia, power is reticulated as three phases of 415V. In suburban streets, 4 wires provide neutral and 240 Volts, each house is supplied with one, two or three phases as they need. I had 3 phases installed as 2nd hand machinery with 3 phase motors was cheaper than single phase items because few homes have 3 phases. cheers, Neville Michie ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Sorry, I guess the blue color did not come through. OH WELL ! BillWB6BNQ WB6BNQ wrote: >Will Matney wrote: > > snip > > As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major > roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential > areas, it's only single phase on the poles. > > Best, > > Will > >Will, > >I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue). In >residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 >KV. Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center >tapped via a transformer. AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt >lines at a lower level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that >transformer. Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are >stringers from a transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but >only because there was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that >direction. > >The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation. >That is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected >(single phase) alternately across different phases. > >At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast ! I realize >there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, >particularly along the East Coast. > >I am located in San Diego, CA area. What part of the country are you >in ? > >BillWB6BNQ > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Will Matney wrote: snip As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's only single phase on the poles. Best, Will Will, I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue). In residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV. Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via a transformer. AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer. Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from a transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because there was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction. The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation. That is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single phase) alternately across different phases. At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast ! I realize there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly along the East Coast. I am located in San Diego, CA area. What part of the country are you in ? BillWB6BNQ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 6/26/11 10:38 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: My idea for measuring this, was to measure the time from the utc second from a GPS receiver to the first zero-crossing of the grid, and try plot Magnus and my measurements together. So, to make this easy on folks.. Seems the easiest PC hardware thing would be to use a sound card input.. left input is the 1pps, right input is 50/60Hz derived from some local source (a wire hanging out is probably enough, but noisy.. a transformer or capacitor coupling from power line would be better).. We could have a little application that runs and grabs, say, 10 seconds worth of sound card data, figures out the phase, and logs it (or does a cURL to send it to a website as a HTTP POST). Even better would be a little dedicated widget that does it. I wonder if one of those sub-$100 retail plug in servers (like the POGO plug) could do it. I think if we could make the "end user price" <$100, and it's truly plug and play (i.e. not a "get this from place A, and find part B surplus, and make a cable, etc.), we could probably get a bunch of people to just try it. I sure would, and I know a bunch of people at work for which this is in the "yeah, I'd do it as a toy" kind of category, as long as it's less than, say, a couple hours to fool with it. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
I quite like your generator description of "huge rotating lumps of copper-ensnarled iron". It brings me back to around 20 years ago, when I was a plant electrician at an older railcar manufacturer. They had huge open-frame synchronous motors, from around the 1930's, that ran their air compressors, and why they used this type of motor is anybodies guess. If I remember right, they were rated at around 200 HP, or so, and were about 8 feet in diameter. The rotor shaft was mounted on huge babbit bearings upon concrete pillars, and about 1/3 of the motor sat in a pit in the concrete floor. I used to have to repair the brushes on the slip rings constantly, until I talked the boss into adding a shunt across the n.o. contacts on the 250 Vdc contactors to quench any arcing. The motors stator itself ran on 4160 Vac. Would the other compressors have to run in sync somehow, as all of them had these motors, just some a little smaller than the others? They drove large single cylinder compressors that fed something like a 6 inch air line (pipe). However, they all did not run at once, and they only did when there was a larger demand for air. Timing is the only thing I can lay this to, and was wondering about it. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/26/2011 at 5:38 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <4e066fac.5090...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes: > >>Infact, Poul-Henning and I had the idea to test this on our grid to see >>what kind of performance we would get out of it. He sent me a >>transformer prepped for the work, but it seems both of us got caught up >>doing other stuff to follow through, but this is a good trigger. > >Yeah, life, don't talk to me about life... :-) > >Actually what I wanted to measure back then was the phase-stiffness >of the grid between us. > >This may be relevant to Tom's experiment as well, and in particular >to those of you living in California, so let me explain what it is: > >Imagine two time-nuts, N1 and N2, two generators G1 and G2 and >various chains of transformators T1a... and T2a... in the same >powergrid but some n*100km apart. > > >G1 --- T1a -+- T1b T2b -+- T2a --- G2 >| | > T1c T2c >| | > N1 N2 > >If all the power is generated by G1, the absolute GPS relative >phase seen at N1, depends on G1, T1a and T1c, which N2 sees >the combined effects og G1, T1a, T1b, T2b, T2c. When G2 produces >all the power, the picture reverses and when G1 and G2 each produce >half the phase difference btween N1 and N2 should be constant. > >(But not zero, because they may not be on the same of the three >phases and because grid transformers shifts phases around to match >things up. Long story, not for today.) > >Which way you push power through T1b and T2b affects what they do >to the phase of the grid on either side so the phase difference >seen between N1 and N2 depends on how power flows in the grid. > >The reason everybody in the same grid sees the same frequency, is >that when you have a big heavy generator, frequency is a usable >proxy measurements for energy. > >If you add an electrical load, the generator have to produce more >electricity which takes more mechanical work causing the >turbine to slow down. And vice versa. > >Typically, a frequency deviation of as little as 0.02 % will cause >regulation of turbine steam. > >Load changes also cause the voltage to change, but this is much >less pronounced and much harder to measure/regulate with, primarily >because of the very noisy measurements. > >So the power-grid basically doesn't use voltage for regulation. >Various mechanisms keep the voltage inside a +/- 10% tolerance >at various points and that's that. > >With me so far ? > >All this breaks down once we start adding power-producers which >are not based on huge rotating lumps of copper-ensnarled iron. > >Solar cells, wind generators, HVDC transmission, electrical cars >feeding battery power and all these other fancy modern things, feed >power into the grid with a computer controlled switch mode gadget >which just tracks whatever phase and frequency your grid has right >now. > >When the frequency changes on one of these switchmodes, they just >follow the grid, they do not try to join in on the "voting" on >the frequency by trying to pull the grid ahead or behind depending >on their power-state. > >As the grid moves from big rotating lumps of iron to switch mode >attachment, a larger and larger fraction of the generation capacity >free-wheels in the frequency 'voting'. > >At some point, the system will no longer be stable, and something >has to happen. > >My particular corner of the world is ground-zero for this, because >we generate 1/5th of our electricity with windmills and have >relatively little rotating machinery running in good winds. > >So f
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
In message <4e066fac.5090...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes: >Infact, Poul-Henning and I had the idea to test this on our grid to see >what kind of performance we would get out of it. He sent me a >transformer prepped for the work, but it seems both of us got caught up >doing other stuff to follow through, but this is a good trigger. Yeah, life, don't talk to me about life... :-) Actually what I wanted to measure back then was the phase-stiffness of the grid between us. This may be relevant to Tom's experiment as well, and in particular to those of you living in California, so let me explain what it is: Imagine two time-nuts, N1 and N2, two generators G1 and G2 and various chains of transformators T1a... and T2a... in the same powergrid but some n*100km apart. G1 --- T1a -+- T1b T2b -+- T2a --- G2 | | T1c T2c | | N1 N2 If all the power is generated by G1, the absolute GPS relative phase seen at N1, depends on G1, T1a and T1c, which N2 sees the combined effects og G1, T1a, T1b, T2b, T2c. When G2 produces all the power, the picture reverses and when G1 and G2 each produce half the phase difference btween N1 and N2 should be constant. (But not zero, because they may not be on the same of the three phases and because grid transformers shifts phases around to match things up. Long story, not for today.) Which way you push power through T1b and T2b affects what they do to the phase of the grid on either side so the phase difference seen between N1 and N2 depends on how power flows in the grid. The reason everybody in the same grid sees the same frequency, is that when you have a big heavy generator, frequency is a usable proxy measurements for energy. If you add an electrical load, the generator have to produce more electricity which takes more mechanical work causing the turbine to slow down. And vice versa. Typically, a frequency deviation of as little as 0.02 % will cause regulation of turbine steam. Load changes also cause the voltage to change, but this is much less pronounced and much harder to measure/regulate with, primarily because of the very noisy measurements. So the power-grid basically doesn't use voltage for regulation. Various mechanisms keep the voltage inside a +/- 10% tolerance at various points and that's that. With me so far ? All this breaks down once we start adding power-producers which are not based on huge rotating lumps of copper-ensnarled iron. Solar cells, wind generators, HVDC transmission, electrical cars feeding battery power and all these other fancy modern things, feed power into the grid with a computer controlled switch mode gadget which just tracks whatever phase and frequency your grid has right now. When the frequency changes on one of these switchmodes, they just follow the grid, they do not try to join in on the "voting" on the frequency by trying to pull the grid ahead or behind depending on their power-state. As the grid moves from big rotating lumps of iron to switch mode attachment, a larger and larger fraction of the generation capacity free-wheels in the frequency 'voting'. At some point, the system will no longer be stable, and something has to happen. My particular corner of the world is ground-zero for this, because we generate 1/5th of our electricity with windmills and have relatively little rotating machinery running in good winds. So far, we are not approaching instability, at least not so that anybody will admit it. But the way to tell if instability is approaching, is to monitor the phase difference between N1 and N2 as explained above, the larger variations and the more resonance frequencies manifest themselves therein, the more you should get involved in local power-politics. The future of grid regulation is to move to a "absolute frequency" model, where the frequency is UTC-locked through-out the grid, and regulation happens only on voltage. There is a lot of fancy technology involved in this, and som scary propositions about what we can and can not do with "holistic grid regulation" and other such buzzwords. Really long term, Edison will win and long-haul electricity will all happen on HVDC lines. When we get buck/boost converters working directly on HVDC, everything will be much simpler and stabler, so people are seriously dragging their feet. My idea for measuring this, was to measure the time from the utc second from a GPS receiver to the first zero-crossing of the grid, and try plot Magnus and my measurements together. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 6/26/11 8:34 AM, Alberto di Bene wrote: A simple way to measure the line frequency (up to a given precision...) is to watch on a waterfall program to one of its harmonics. In the following picture you can see the 53rd harmonic of the 50 Hz line frequency in Italy. It was captured by just connecting a random length of wire to the line input of a sound card, thus capturing the ambient hum. clever idea, but I think that frequency is less interesting than phase (or more interesting, phase differences between different places) But phase of a harmonic is tied to phase of the fundamental, so with the right reference (a trusty 1pps?) it could work. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 6/26/2011 6:03 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Alberto, That's a cute plot. I see 53 x 50 = 2650. What is the x axis scale? Tom, that capture was taken a few months ago, from memory it should cover about 15 or 20 minutes. But I'm curious -- the pending issue with 60 Hz in the US is more about uncorrected long-term accumulated time drift and less about short-term frequency stability. So it seems like you would have to integrate all the wiggles in the 53rd harmonic of your waterfall plot in order to compute time drift, yes? Yes, if what you are interested in is the potential drift of a line-controlled clock, just integrating the signed deltas from the nominal value will give that info. In any case, I have near to my bed such a clock. Thanks God the power line failures are very rare where I live (let's say once every three months), and that clock keeps admirably the time. I would guess just a few seconds per month. It doesn't have a crystal oscillator inside, it relies just on the 50 Hz. Is there any chance you could run both the waterfall frequency monitor and also a 50 Hz phase comparator for a couple of days to see how well (or how poorly) one can compute the net long-term mains time drift from a set of independent short-term frequency deviation measurements? I don't have a 50 Hz phase comparator, but I can arrange for a long waterfall capture, a day long, if that can be of help. 73 Alberto I2PHD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Don, I haven't looked into it for several years, well over 12, but I will take a gander at this. What brand was the converter? After reading about everyone out of the US having 3 phase, it makes one wonder why we didn't do that years ago. As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's only single phase on the poles. The only way they would run it through, would be to supply some large business, and that was the shortest way to get it there. Plus, even though you have a 3 phase line in front, or behind, your building, you have to pay for the transformers, and everything else to get it into the building. I understand paying for the meters, but the line and the transformers too? One would think they would gladly install them over the money they would make from supplying the power. Anyhow, back on topic. One could simply connect a low voltage transformer, say 5 or 12 Vac, to the line to take the measurement from, attenuate it down, and use a logging type frequency counter, maybe a PC ran counter, and record any variance in the frequency over the year. Using a pc based oscilloscope comes to mind too, as most of them have a frequency counter in the software. Last, one might be able to use the sound card, and some kludged software, say something written quick in Visual Basic, to record this. Here you would use the mic jack, and monitor the incoming signal. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 11:11 PM Don Latham wrote: >Now you can get true three phase delta, with speed control, from single >phase 220, non rotary. With wise buying, I got one to run a 1 hp mill >motor for around $100 inflated rasbuckniks. >Don > >Will Matney >> I wish we had three phase everywhere, including our homes. If one wants >> to >> run anything like a lathe or mill of any size, we have to use >> converters, >> or starters (static converters). When I had my shop, I contacted AEP >> about >> installing three phase, and the cost of the transformer bank alone was >> enough for me. I installed a rotary converter, which I home-brewed, made >> from a surplus 25 Hp, 3 Ph. motor, and a 120 volt, 1 ph. pony motor to >> start it rolling. The so-called static converters are nothing but a >> starter >> using capacitors, and when they drop out, you lose 1/3 of the power you >> should have from the motor. The other route, you pick up the third phase >> from the converter motors winding. >> >> Best, >> >> Will >> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** >> >> On 6/25/2011 at 7:04 PM Hal Murray wrote: >> >>>mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said: It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3 phases of the house. :) >>> >>>Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? >>> >>>In the US, houses and small businesses get 120/240. That's 3 wires, >>> 240 >>>single phase, center tap, with the center called neutral and connected >>> to >>>earth/ground. High power things like stoves and dryers run on 240. >>> Most >>>things like lights and TVs run on 120. As long as the 120 load is >> balanced >>>there is no current in the neutral so the losses in the line from pole >>> to >>>house are based on a 240 load rather than 120. (1/4, for the same size >> wire) >>> >>>You have to use a lot more power than a typical house to get 3 phase. >> Here >>>are PG&E's rules: >>> http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_RULES_2.pdf >>> >>> >>>-- >>>These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>___ >>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>and follow the instructions there. >>> >>>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > >-- >"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument >are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind." >R. Bacon >"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it." >Ghost in the Shell > > >Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL >Six Mile Systems LLP >17850 Six Mile Road >POB 134 >Huson, MT, 59846 >VOX 406-626-4304 >www.lightningforensics.com >www.sixmilesystems.com > > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-b
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
A simple way to measure the line frequency (up to a given precision...) is to watch on a waterfall program to one of its harmonics. In the following picture you can see the 53rd harmonic of the 50 Hz line frequency in Italy. It was captured by just connecting a random length of wire to the line input of a sound card, thus capturing the ambient hum. More sophisticated ways can be used, of course :-) http://www.sdradio.eu/images/53x50hzita.jpg 73 Alberto I2PHD Alberto, That's a cute plot. I see 53 x 50 = 2650. What is the x axis scale? But I'm curious -- the pending issue with 60 Hz in the US is more about uncorrected long-term accumulated time drift and less about short-term frequency stability. So it seems like you would have to integrate all the wiggles in the 53rd harmonic of your waterfall plot in order to compute time drift, yes? Is there any chance you could run both the waterfall frequency monitor and also a 50 Hz phase comparator for a couple of days to see how well (or how poorly) one can compute the net long-term mains time drift from a set of independent short-term frequency deviation measurements? Thanks, /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
A simple way to measure the line frequency (up to a given precision...) is to watch on a waterfall program to one of its harmonics. In the following picture you can see the 53rd harmonic of the 50 Hz line frequency in Italy. It was captured by just connecting a random length of wire to the line input of a sound card, thus capturing the ambient hum. More sophisticated ways can be used, of course :-) http://www.sdradio.eu/images/53x50hzita.jpg 73 Alberto I2PHD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 10:04, Hal Murray wrote: > > Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? > Just for the record: In Singapore, 3-phase is common, except at the smallest possible loads (a 50 sqft corner stand). You get 4-wire, 3-phase as your normal supply. For a small office unit, I was told that we would get 3-phase, with a 3-phase meter, and it was OK with the utility company if I used only one. -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
In India we have 50 Hz +- 2Hz !! Clocks that run on mains frequency needed to be modified with a NS chip that ran off a NTSC color xtal. Homes used to be "All electric" in the old days with 3 phase (Like mine). I have had the neutral in the cable burn up due to road digging and lost a lot of equipment due to imbalance. Now most homes are single phase 220v. Cheers Raj >>mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said: >>>It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3 >>>phases of the house. :) >> >>Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? > >We are off-topic here, so let's keep this sub-thread short. > >I can't speak for the rest of Europe, as these things is certainly something >which differs over the continent. > >In Sweden it is fairly common to have three-phase in the house or apartment. I >suspect this is true for many neighbouring countries. > >Norway at least used to have a 230 VAC rather than 400 VAC three-phase with no >real null. Hope they build themselves away from that. > >Cheers, >Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 06/26/2011 04:04 AM, Hal Murray wrote: mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said: It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3 phases of the house. :) Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? We are off-topic here, so let's keep this sub-thread short. I can't speak for the rest of Europe, as these things is certainly something which differs over the continent. In Sweden it is fairly common to have three-phase in the house or apartment. I suspect this is true for many neighbouring countries. Norway at least used to have a 230 VAC rather than 400 VAC three-phase with no real null. Hope they build themselves away from that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Now you can get true three phase delta, with speed control, from single phase 220, non rotary. With wise buying, I got one to run a 1 hp mill motor for around $100 inflated rasbuckniks. Don Will Matney > I wish we had three phase everywhere, including our homes. If one wants > to > run anything like a lathe or mill of any size, we have to use > converters, > or starters (static converters). When I had my shop, I contacted AEP > about > installing three phase, and the cost of the transformer bank alone was > enough for me. I installed a rotary converter, which I home-brewed, made > from a surplus 25 Hp, 3 Ph. motor, and a 120 volt, 1 ph. pony motor to > start it rolling. The so-called static converters are nothing but a > starter > using capacitors, and when they drop out, you lose 1/3 of the power you > should have from the motor. The other route, you pick up the third phase > from the converter motors winding. > > Best, > > Will > > *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** > > On 6/25/2011 at 7:04 PM Hal Murray wrote: > >>mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said: >>> It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and >>> L3 >>> phases of the house. :) >> >>Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? >> >>In the US, houses and small businesses get 120/240. That's 3 wires, >> 240 >>single phase, center tap, with the center called neutral and connected >> to >>earth/ground. High power things like stoves and dryers run on 240. >> Most >>things like lights and TVs run on 120. As long as the 120 load is > balanced >>there is no current in the neutral so the losses in the line from pole >> to >>house are based on a 240 load rather than 120. (1/4, for the same size > wire) >> >>You have to use a lot more power than a typical house to get 3 phase. > Here >>are PG&E's rules: >> http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_RULES_2.pdf >> >> >>-- >>These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. >> >> >> >> >>___ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. >> >>__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 5851 (20110206) __ >> >>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >>http://www.eset.com > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind." R. Bacon "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it." Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
I wish we had three phase everywhere, including our homes. If one wants to run anything like a lathe or mill of any size, we have to use converters, or starters (static converters). When I had my shop, I contacted AEP about installing three phase, and the cost of the transformer bank alone was enough for me. I installed a rotary converter, which I home-brewed, made from a surplus 25 Hp, 3 Ph. motor, and a 120 volt, 1 ph. pony motor to start it rolling. The so-called static converters are nothing but a starter using capacitors, and when they drop out, you lose 1/3 of the power you should have from the motor. The other route, you pick up the third phase from the converter motors winding. Best, Will *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/25/2011 at 7:04 PM Hal Murray wrote: >mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said: >> It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3 >> phases of the house. :) > >Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? > >In the US, houses and small businesses get 120/240. That's 3 wires, 240 >single phase, center tap, with the center called neutral and connected to >earth/ground. High power things like stoves and dryers run on 240. Most >things like lights and TVs run on 120. As long as the 120 load is balanced >there is no current in the neutral so the losses in the line from pole to >house are based on a 240 load rather than 120. (1/4, for the same size wire) > >You have to use a lot more power than a typical house to get 3 phase. Here >are PG&E's rules: > http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_RULES_2.pdf > > >-- >These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > >__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5851 (20110206) __ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said: > It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3 > phases of the house. :) Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes? In the US, houses and small businesses get 120/240. That's 3 wires, 240 single phase, center tap, with the center called neutral and connected to earth/ground. High power things like stoves and dryers run on 240. Most things like lights and TVs run on 120. As long as the 120 load is balanced there is no current in the neutral so the losses in the line from pole to house are based on a 240 load rather than 120. (1/4, for the same size wire) You have to use a lot more power than a typical house to get 3 phase. Here are PG&E's rules: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_RULES_2.pdf -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 06/26/2011 02:18 AM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote: RDS is a frequency standard? RDS can give time of day, notice how it says "FM radio RDS+pilot CV" so the 19 kHz pilot tone is used in conjunction with RDS. The danger in that is that RDS time of day setting may be bogus, since some broadcasters does not guarantee to steer it even if it happens to be correct most of the times. The traceability of the pilot tone may also be bogus. For common view it would kind of work. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
RDS is a frequency standard? -Original Message- From: Kasper Pedersen Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 01:53:02 To: Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party On 06/26/2011 01:07 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > Extrapolating further, I wonder if anyone has done common view > time transfer based on synchronized power grids? Although not > as precise as LF or TV or GPS methods it would make a nice > demo of the concept. > > /tvb http://n1.taur.dk/plcv/ (with pretty plots. Posted to 'nuts 1.5 years ago) The two sites were on different 60kV radials, but within the same city. I wonder what fun things one might deduce by watching the difference in phase across the continent? /Kasper Pedersen The files on the site are pretty old. I still have this in operation to a time server where I can get the space, power, and bandwidth, but not the antenna space. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 06/26/2011 01:07 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > Extrapolating further, I wonder if anyone has done common view > time transfer based on synchronized power grids? Although not > as precise as LF or TV or GPS methods it would make a nice > demo of the concept. > > /tvb http://n1.taur.dk/plcv/ (with pretty plots. Posted to 'nuts 1.5 years ago) The two sites were on different 60kV radials, but within the same city. I wonder what fun things one might deduce by watching the difference in phase across the continent? /Kasper Pedersen The files on the site are pretty old. I still have this in operation to a time server where I can get the space, power, and bandwidth, but not the antenna space. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Extrapolating further, I wonder if anyone has done common view time transfer based on synchronized power grids? Although not as precise as LF or TV or GPS methods it would make a nice demo of the concept. /tvb Interesting idea.. but here's a potential wrench in the works.. the phase in the "consuming area" is always lagging the phase in the "sending area"... as the amount of power sent varies, the phase difference varies. So, for instance, you're up in the Pacific NW.. generally a "sender" of power via the Pacific Intertie down to us in the LA area. What might be interesting is for both of us to measure phase against some common reference (e.g. GPS) and then do a delta. Then compare that delta (perhaps integrated over a day?) against the published power that's been transmitted over the links (CAISO has this on their website, I think) There's also a fair amount of phase shift possible between transmission, through distribution to your house. Maybe some sort of E/H field pickup under a HV power line (if that didn't trigger the DHS dragging you away). The field should be easily detectable. For an exercise when I was substitute teaching a coworker's EM statics class at Cal State Northridge, I had them work out whether a) a compass needle would deflect under the DC link (carrying 3000A), and b)whether you could measure the current that way. The general answer is yes and yes, although it's a lot easier if one of the links is down and they're running with the ocean return path. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hi Tom, On 06/26/2011 01:07 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote: Magnus, Yes, after the current 60 Hz excitement here in the US winds down my longer-term idea is for many of us to continuously monitor our local power frequency with some sort of web-uploading TAPR kit and then have an informal international TDEV competition. There are now time-nuts in dozens of countries so this is both possible and interesting. You're welcome to collect data on your 50 Hz; it could serve as a benchmark for us time drifters here in the west. Extrapolating further, I wonder if anyone has done common view time transfer based on synchronized power grids? Although not as precise as LF or TV or GPS methods it would make a nice demo of the concept. Infact, Poul-Henning and I had the idea to test this on our grid to see what kind of performance we would get out of it. He sent me a transformer prepped for the work, but it seems both of us got caught up doing other stuff to follow through, but this is a good trigger. We should recall that IEEE 1588 was originally created to meet the power industries need for synchronisation. There are players in the PTP world that became big thanks to the power industry. Anyway, a suitable measurement set-up would include a GPS, a transformer for measurement signal, and a simple TIC of choice, such as a PICTIC. Hook the start pulse to the PPS and the stop pulse to the power grid. Cycle slips will be easy to see in data (20 ms or 16.67 ms steps) so compensation and counting is quite easy to do in post-processing. It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3 phases of the house. :) Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Great idea Tom! I'm safely on my 50 Hz grid over here, so I let you guys play around in your end. Maybe we should do something on our grid, we are a few time-nuts on the nordic grid. Cheers, Magnus Magnus, Yes, after the current 60 Hz excitement here in the US winds down my longer-term idea is for many of us to continuously monitor our local power frequency with some sort of web-uploading TAPR kit and then have an informal international TDEV competition. There are now time-nuts in dozens of countries so this is both possible and interesting. You're welcome to collect data on your 50 Hz; it could serve as a benchmark for us time drifters here in the west. Extrapolating further, I wonder if anyone has done common view time transfer based on synchronized power grids? Although not as precise as LF or TV or GPS methods it would make a nice demo of the concept. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 06/25/2011 09:34 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to get interesting plots. There's no agenda; we measure because we can. Anything about precise time is fun. There hasn't been a leap second to watch for a while so this is the next best thing. The last time I carefully measured 60 Hz was in 2004. See: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/mains/ To overcome some questions about that data set, last year I collected 60 Hz data using a GPSDO PIC that time-stamped each zero crossing (yes, it's excessive but since when has that stopped me). I'll restart that now and let it run all summer. Anyway, you're welcome to use any 60 Hz monitoring method that you can think of, whether seriously technical or just plain humorous; clever or Rube Goldberg. Actually, the greater the variety of methods used the more fun the group project will be. It could be as simple as noting AC wall clock time once a day and making a summer plot on the back of an envelope. Or as weird as integrating the hum of a sound card on a PC running NTP making MRTG plots. Let your imagination flow. Please consider contributing to the effort. It seems the last time anything interesting happened with mains frequency was when Los Angeles changed from 50 Hz to 60 Hz in 1936. Great idea Tom! I'm safely on my 50 Hz grid over here, so I let you guys play around in your end. Maybe we should do something on our grid, we are a few time-nuts on the nordic grid. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
