Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them. (See Tuxedo Park by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. It's on page 67-68. When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in sync. It may take an hour... Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if their bases are touching? (or something like that) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Actually, it only takes a few seconds to sync metronomes using that method. YouTube is full of examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVxVbCIPjg -Bob On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them. (See Tuxedo Park by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. It's on page 67-68. When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in sync. It may take an hour... Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if their bases are touching? (or something like that) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Hal Murray wrote. Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if their bases are touching? (or something like that) Yes. That's a standard sophomore physics demonstration. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them. (See Tuxedo Park by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. It's on page 67-68. When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in sync. It may take an hour... Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if their bases are touching? (or something like that) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Excellent. I shall get the observatory to move their hydrogen masers onto a board on drink cans immediately. Jim 2009/3/10 Max Robinson m...@maxsmusicplace.com Hal Murray wrote. Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if their bases are touching? (or something like that) Yes. That's a standard sophomore physics demonstration. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them. (See Tuxedo Park by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. It's on page 67-68. When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in sync. It may take an hour... Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if their bases are touching? (or something like that) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
That caused the first audible laugh around here in some time. Anyone know anything about the pneumatically synchronized clocks of Paris after the Revolution? Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Jim Palfreyman Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:36 PM Excellent. I shall get the observatory to move their hydrogen masers onto a board on drink cans immediately. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
2009/3/10 Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net: That caused the first audible laugh around here in some time. Anyone know anything about the pneumatically synchronized clocks of Paris after the Revolution? This might be similar to the way I am now thinking given what has been said on this thread. I'd be very interested to hear about this. 73, Steve Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Jim Palfreyman Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:36 PM Excellent. I shall get the observatory to move their hydrogen masers onto a board on drink cans immediately. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Hi Jim, a seconds Pendulum has frequency of 0.5Hz, and so your subwoofer would need 0.5 hz response if it is going to shake walls. Being a purist I must point out that at 0.5 Hz the sound energy would be in the form of pressure which is very weakly coupled to a pendulum. The only coupling would be buoyancy, and that would need a 1Hz signal to give two reductions in apparent gravity per cycle. Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them. (See Tuxedo Park by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. cheers, Neville Michie On 05/03/2009, at 5:22 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that into my MK subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long Reifler pendulum) it should keep perfect time. Beauty! 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape mechanism, the two would fight each other. Eric, Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Just to put in my twopenny worth; In the current (March) issue of OZ electronics magazine Silicon Chip is a project to lock a cheap battery operated clock to a GPS derived signal.. Uses a Jupitor type GPS head unit to receive the Sats signals. Cheers Arie Schellaars VK3DBF --- On Thu, 5/3/09, Neville Michie namic...@gmail.com wrote: From: Neville Michie namic...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Received: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 8:35 AM Hi Jim, a seconds Pendulum has frequency of 0.5Hz, and so your subwoofer would need 0.5 hz response if it is going to shake walls. Being a purist I must point out that at 0.5 Hz the sound energy would be in the form of pressure which is very weakly coupled to a pendulum. The only coupling would be buoyancy, and that would need a 1Hz signal to give two reductions in apparent gravity per cycle. Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them. (See Tuxedo Park by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. cheers, Neville Michie On 05/03/2009, at 5:22 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that into my MK subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long Reifler pendulum) it should keep perfect time. Beauty! 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape mechanism, the two would fight each other. Eric, Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Tom Van Baak skrev: In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great milestones. ... These clock kept very good time. Cheers, Neville Michie Yes, stability at 1 day was right around 1e-8 for a Shortt. Stability (ADEV) of one Shortt pendulum clock: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/shortt/ The traditional masterclock for those devices which is found on http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/earth/ is a bit more complicated. The referenced frequency (of period 86400 s) is not the actual frequency but rather the SSB beat frequency of the free space rotation frequency and the rotation speed around the heat radiator some 8 ligth minutes away. The rotation period is about 86,164090 ks or 11,605762 uHz (and not mHz incorrectly noted on the page). The rotation around the heater has a frequency of about 31,6887385 nHz. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Steve,See http://www.britishtelephones.com/clocks/exchange.htm and http://www.britishtelephones.com/clocks/clock36.htmMight give you a few construction ideas. Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. 73 Martin G8BHC 2009/3/4 Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this being done by someone like us. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Martin Richmond-Hardy ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
In a message dated 04/03/2009 12:12:26 GMT Standard Time, martinr...@googlemail.com writes: Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. - One could always strip down an old Bannister:-) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
2009/3/5 Martin Richmond-Hardy martinr...@googlemail.com: Steve,See http://www.britishtelephones.com/clocks/exchange.htm and http://www.britishtelephones.com/clocks/clock36.htmMight give you a few construction ideas. Thanks. Now that would make an impressive item in the house. I do remember the exchange slave clocks in the exchanges when I first worked for BT way back at the beginning of the 70's. There was probably one of the master units somewhere safe in the exchanges but I can't remember seeing them. As for accuracy, it's hardly time-nuts standard at Clock No, 36 to keep G.M.T. to an accuracy of 8 seconds variation per week Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) 73 Martin G8BHC 2009/3/4 Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this being done by someone like us. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Martin Richmond-Hardy ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
2009/3/5 gandal...@aol.com: In a message dated 04/03/2009 12:12:26 GMT Standard Time, martinr...@googlemail.com writes: Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. - One could always strip down an old Bannister:-) I read that wrong the fist time and could not for the life of me see how this related to a naked ancient barrister :) 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Steve Rooke wrote: Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the war? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
2009/3/5 John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com: Steve Rooke wrote: Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the war? Those Danes must be keeping it to themselves. I never trusted them since they started raping and pillaging all over the place. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
In a message dated 04/03/2009 12:49:38 GMT Standard Time, sar10...@gmail.com writes: I read that wrong the fist time and could not for the life of me see how this related to a naked ancient barrister :) LOL Not the one living in a fountain in Trafalgar Square by any chance? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
John Ackermann N8UR wrote: Steve Rooke wrote: Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the war? I can get you some really nice dry cured bacon from Chatsworth Farm Shop if you want... Rob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
2009/3/5 Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com: I can get you some really nice dry cured bacon from Chatsworth Farm Shop if you want... Ah, that does sound good but I don't think you'll be able to sneak it past MAF sadly. They don't take too highly to foodstuffs entering the country via unlicensed means it seems. All the stuff over here is saturated in water and really doesn't taste like the bacon over there. What with the beer and the bacon, I wonder why I came here sometimes :) My apologies to all for this thread going completely off-topic. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
I have two Western Union/Self-Winding Clock Company Clocks. Some background info: http://www.kensclockclinic.com/pdf/Model%201900S%20White%20Paper.pdf http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml (Brooke Clarke's site, a member of this list). I synchronize mine using my NTP server built from a Soekris NET4501, driven by a Trimble Thunderbolt. Not the same as retrofitting a clock not specifically meant for the purpose, but I like it. Ralph On Mar 4, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Steve Rooke wrote: Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this being done by someone like us. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
I've driven quartz movement clocks with one pps signals, bypassing the quartz works. To synchronize pendula (?) is relatively simple, but best done using a mechanical/magnetic impulse phase locked loop, considering the pendulum as a VCO. BTW, I recommend Stephenson's new effort, Anathem loosely based on the clock of the Long Now Foundation, q.v. Don Latham Rob Kimberley John Ackermann N8UR wrote: Steve Rooke wrote: Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the war? I can get you some really nice dry cured bacon from Chatsworth Farm Shop if you want... Rob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Hi Steve, Have you thought about locking the cuckoo call to GPS? I don't know how that call is generated, but I guess it wouldn't be too difficult to control electronically. Ron G3SVW - Original Message - From: Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:52 AM Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this being done by someone like us. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
-Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 5:44 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks 2009/3/5 John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com: Steve Rooke wrote: Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood. H.Crun. And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the war? Those Danes must be keeping it to themselves. I never trusted them since they started raping and pillaging all over the place. Isn't that why they built that wall? Just one of the many things that the Romans have done for us (after viticulture, sanitation, etc.) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Don and group, I was about to write about the pendulum as a VCO concept. I've seen articles in the NAWCC Horological Journal that describe ways to do it, but have been hesitant to do anything to my grandfather's Seth Thomas wall clock. It gets wound once a week, and generally doesn't need setting. One thing about an old clock, though. The minute hand can be off by a minute on either side of vertical due to gravity and wear of the gears. Anathem surprises on many levels, especially the 'alien' encounter. Excellent elsewhere read, far from the daily news. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Don Latham Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:22 PM I've driven quartz movement clocks with one pps signals, bypassing the quartz works. To synchronize pendula (?) is relatively simple, but best done using a mechanical/magnetic impulse phase locked loop, considering the pendulum as a VCO. BTW, I recommend Stephenson's new effort, Anathem loosely based on the clock of the Long Now Foundation, q.v. Don Latham -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
2009/3/5 Lux, James P james.p@jpl.nasa.gov: Those Danes must be keeping it to themselves. I never trusted them since they started raping and pillaging all over the place. Isn't that why they built that wall? Just one of the many things that the Romans have done for us (after viticulture, sanitation, etc.) That was to keep the Scots out. Even the Romans drew the line at trying to conquer them. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Bryan Mumford (bmumford.com) did a lot of work developing pendulum clocks that were driven by a Fedchenko electromagnetic drive. The drive circuit would both put energy into the pendulum and use the pulse to drive an electric clock face to display the time. He never got to the point of disciplining the clock, but he did note that you could make fine adjustments in the period by varying the drive current which changed the amplitude of the pendulum swing and changed the period. (Larger swings ran slower, as I recall.) You could theoretically discipline such a clock by varying the current to lock the pendulum to a GPS source. It wouldn't really be mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape mechanism, the two would fight each other. On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this being done by someone like us. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great milestones. see http://www.electric-clocks.nl/clocks/en/page10.htm This clock used a pendulum running free to synchronise another pendulum that did all the housekeeping work. The work pendulum was adjusted to be a little slow and a thin leaf spring was picked up by a relay if the phase was too slow and added a slight gaining rate until the phase was restored. A little like switching a tiny capacitor in and out connected to an TCXO to keep it disciplined. These clock kept very good time. Cheers, Neville Michie On 05/03/2009, at 3:11 PM, Eric Williams wrote: Bryan Mumford (bmumford.com) did a lot of work developing pendulum clocks that were driven by a Fedchenko electromagnetic drive. The drive circuit would both put energy into the pendulum and use the pulse to drive an electric clock face to display the time. He never got to the point of disciplining the clock, but he did note that you could make fine adjustments in the period by varying the drive current which changed the amplitude of the pendulum swing and changed the period. (Larger swings ran slower, as I recall.) You could theoretically discipline such a clock by varying the current to lock the pendulum to a GPS source. It wouldn't really be mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape mechanism, the two would fight each other. On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this being done by someone like us. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape mechanism, the two would fight each other. Eric, Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great milestones. ... These clock kept very good time. Cheers, Neville Michie Yes, stability at 1 day was right around 1e-8 for a Shortt. Stability (ADEV) of one Shortt pendulum clock: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/shortt/ For more details on Shortt and ADEV see: http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ch2.pdf /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that into my MK subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long Reifler pendulum) it should keep perfect time. Beauty! 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape mechanism, the two would fight each other. Eric, Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
Actually, simply use a pendulum in a vacuum chamber, and pulse a LED shining toward the pendulum in the plane of rotation. Eventually, radiation pressure will synchronize it... Don - Original Message - From: Jim Palfreyman jim77...@gmail.com To: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that into my MK subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long Reifler pendulum) it should keep perfect time. Beauty! 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape mechanism, the two would fight each other. Eric, Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks
2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com: In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great milestones. ... These clock kept very good time. Cheers, Neville Michie Yes, stability at 1 day was right around 1e-8 for a Shortt. Stability (ADEV) of one Shortt pendulum clock: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/shortt/ For more details on Shortt and ADEV see: http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ch2.pdf This is great stuff. Thanks Tom. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
