Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Tom Harris]

I heard of a system used in Melbourne between two major stations using
pulses in a pipe of water to sync. I suppose that pulses travel much faster
in water being incompressible, so better accuracy!


Tom Harris 

On 20 October 2015 at 07:00, Brian Inglis 
wrote:

> On 2015-10-15 08:32, Tom Van Baak wrote:
>
>> Nick Sayer writes:
>>
>>> The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th
>>> century. It started in 1870.
>>>
>>
> Also, for a screen full of irresistible SWCC photos, try this:
>> https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch=self-winding+clock+company
>>
>> My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once
>>> daily and, as you said,
>>> would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of the pulse
>>> was synchronized and would
>>> release the clock to operate normally.
>>>
>>> That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is
>>> astonishing.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, Padawan, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the deep
>> and fascinating history of precise timekeeping.
>>
>
> Recently restored (after a building fire where some were lost) to working
> 19 Art Nouveau master/slave clocks from 1910:
> http://www.gsaarchives.net/2013/04/mackintosh-clocks-feature-on-bbc-news/
> more pictures in linked articles from BBC
> --
> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Brian Inglis]

On 2015-10-15 08:32, Tom Van Baak wrote:

Nick Sayer writes:

The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
century. It started in 1870.



Also, for a screen full of irresistible SWCC photos, try this:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch=self-winding+clock+company


My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily 
and, as you said,
would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of the pulse was 
synchronized and would
release the clock to operate normally.

That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
astonishing.


Oh, Padawan, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the deep and 
fascinating history of precise timekeeping.


Recently restored (after a building fire where some were lost) to working
19 Art Nouveau master/slave clocks from 1910:
http://www.gsaarchives.net/2013/04/mackintosh-clocks-feature-on-bbc-news/
more pictures in linked articles from BBC
--
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Luke Mester]

The SWCC clock time synch coils were wired in series. Voltage varied with
the number of clocks in the circuit. It takes about 300ma to drive the
coil. Do a Google search for "swcc synchronizing coil voltage" to see a
thread where I talk about this on the NAWCC clock message board. Also the
clocks have a mechanical lock out mechanism that will prevent synch if the
minute hand is more than a few minutes on either side of the hour. Send a
pulse too early or late & you'll hear the click but the time won't be
reset. And yes, it is amazing how many years ago people came up with time
sync systems. Some of the early systems used pneumatics to distribute the
time sync!

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 8:25 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi Don:
>
> I've got a number of SWCC clocks and 3V doesn't work for any of them.
> I've done a number of experiments and a higher voltage and series resistor
> makes a huge improvement.
>
>
> Mail_Attachment --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
> Don Couch wrote:
>
>> Hi, Brooke,
>>
>> My self winding clock synchronizes fine on three volts. I built a
>> synchronizer using a PIC controller with a 32KHz quartz crystal, running on
>> three volts. You might want to carefully check the coil and connections on
>> yours. By the way, the winding coils also are running on three volts.
>>
>> Don Couch
>>
>> On 10/14/2015 11:02 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Nick:
>>>
>>> One of my Self Winding Clock Co. (WU) clocks was taken down yesterday
>>> for painting.
>>> When put up one of the Ken's Clock Synchronizers was installed and the
>>> hands moved to align with the heart shaped cam it uses, but it never worked.
>>> The problem was it used a 4.5 Volt signal which can develop the current
>>> needed to pull the sync electromagnet the time constant is far too slow.
>>> I'm going to add a high voltage circuit with series resistor to get the
>>> time constant down one or two orders of magnitude.  The key to this is a
>>> PCB I make that holds 5 each 9V batteries connected in series, so I'll use
>>> one, two or more of them to get the time constant down.
>>> http://www.prc68.com/P/45VS.html
>>>
>>> Before I had the 45 Volt Stick I was considering getting the needed high
>>> voltage by charging a cap a minute or two before the top of the hour and
>>> discharging it through a resistor.  Here's a video showing that would work.
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Experiments_Feb_2014_
>>>
>>> Mail_Attachment --
>>> Have Fun,
>>>
>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> http://www.PRC68.com
>>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
>>> Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>>>
 On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches 
> wrote:
>
> Not milisecond time distribution but time related!
>
> In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time
> business.  They
> would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc clocks for
> a few
> dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry
> cell
> batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
> connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after
> the
> top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop. Exactly at the
> top
> of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line
> and it
> would reset the clock to the top of the hour.
>
 The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the
 20th century. It started in 1870.

 I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up
 with a circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with
 a Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at
 this point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.

 My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once
 daily and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing
 edge of the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate
 normally.

 That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early
 is astonishing.
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.


>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
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>> 

Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Adrian Godwin]

I have a synchronome clock built for the British Post Office.

I find that the 10V or so that a USB to serial adapter can produce can
trigger the solenoid, if allowed to charge a capacitor for the intervening
minute. The effect is that I can print a single character once a minute at
a low bit rate and, with a few components but no power supply beyond USB,
step the clock.

A better solution would include a microcontroller to remember where the
hands had stepped to, for automatic recovery after a stoppage.


On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 1:25 AM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi Don:
>
> I've got a number of SWCC clocks and 3V doesn't work for any of them.
> I've done a number of experiments and a higher voltage and series resistor
> makes a huge improvement.
>
>
> Mail_Attachment --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
> Don Couch wrote:
>
>> Hi, Brooke,
>>
>> My self winding clock synchronizes fine on three volts. I built a
>> synchronizer using a PIC controller with a 32KHz quartz crystal, running on
>> three volts. You might want to carefully check the coil and connections on
>> yours. By the way, the winding coils also are running on three volts.
>>
>> Don Couch
>>
>> On 10/14/2015 11:02 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Nick:
>>>
>>> One of my Self Winding Clock Co. (WU) clocks was taken down yesterday
>>> for painting.
>>> When put up one of the Ken's Clock Synchronizers was installed and the
>>> hands moved to align with the heart shaped cam it uses, but it never worked.
>>> The problem was it used a 4.5 Volt signal which can develop the current
>>> needed to pull the sync electromagnet the time constant is far too slow.
>>> I'm going to add a high voltage circuit with series resistor to get the
>>> time constant down one or two orders of magnitude.  The key to this is a
>>> PCB I make that holds 5 each 9V batteries connected in series, so I'll use
>>> one, two or more of them to get the time constant down.
>>> http://www.prc68.com/P/45VS.html
>>>
>>> Before I had the 45 Volt Stick I was considering getting the needed high
>>> voltage by charging a cap a minute or two before the top of the hour and
>>> discharging it through a resistor.  Here's a video showing that would work.
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Experiments_Feb_2014_
>>>
>>> Mail_Attachment --
>>> Have Fun,
>>>
>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> http://www.PRC68.com
>>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
>>> Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>>>
 On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches 
> wrote:
>
> Not milisecond time distribution but time related!
>
> In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time
> business.  They
> would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc clocks for
> a few
> dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry
> cell
> batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
> connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after
> the
> top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop. Exactly at the
> top
> of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line
> and it
> would reset the clock to the top of the hour.
>
 The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the
 20th century. It started in 1870.

 I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up
 with a circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with
 a Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at
 this point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.

 My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once
 daily and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing
 edge of the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate
 normally.

 That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early
 is astonishing.
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.


>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
> ___
> time-nuts 

Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Kenton A. Hoover]

You are really late to this party. Current comptition is how many diffenent 
types of clocks can be driven with PoE -- know someone trying to do Nixie 
with it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 14, 2015, at 09:42, Nick Sayer via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches  wrote:
>> 
>> Not milisecond time distribution but time related!
>> 
>> In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time business.  They
>> would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc  clocks for a few
>> dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell
>> batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
>> connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the
>> top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop.  Exactly at the top
>> of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line and it
>> would reset the clock to the top of the hour.
> 
> The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
> century. It started in 1870.
> 
> I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with a 
> circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with a 
> Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at this 
> point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.
> 
> My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily 
> and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of 
> the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate normally.
> 
> That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
> astonishing.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Ralph Smith]

I drive one of my Self Winding Clock Company/Western Union clocks using the NTP 
server I built using a Trimble Thunderbolt and a Soekris Net4501. I use a GPIO 
line to drive a simple transistor switch using the same 3 volt battery that I 
also use do power the winder. The pulse from the GPIO pin is accurate to a 
sub-microsecond level. By the time you deal with the solenoid and the 
mechanical issues in the synchronizing arm, it is, let us say, somewhat less 
precise.

On a side note, I have in my possession the book “Selling the True Time: 
Nineteenth-Century Timekeeping in America”, 
.
 Interesting read about railroads driving the need for standard time, as well 
as college and university astronomers setting up a cottage industry of selling 
the time. Western Union, with its telegraph distribution of time from the US 
naval observatory and using the Self Winding Clock Company clocks supplanted 
the local observatories.

Ralph
AB4RS

> On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> 
> Hi Nick:
> 
> One of my Self Winding Clock Co. (WU) clocks was taken down yesterday for 
> painting.
> When put up one of the Ken's Clock Synchronizers was installed and the hands 
> moved to align with the heart shaped cam it uses, but it never worked.
> The problem was it used a 4.5 Volt signal which can develop the current 
> needed to pull the sync electromagnet the time constant is far too slow.
> I'm going to add a high voltage circuit with series resistor to get the time 
> constant down one or two orders of magnitude.  The key to this is a PCB I 
> make that holds 5 each 9V batteries connected in series, so I'll use one, two 
> or more of them to get the time constant down.
> http://www.prc68.com/P/45VS.html
> 
> Before I had the 45 Volt Stick I was considering getting the needed high 
> voltage by charging a cap a minute or two before the top of the hour and 
> discharging it through a resistor.  Here's a video showing that would work.
> http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Experiments_Feb_2014_
> 
> Mail_Attachment --
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
> Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>>> On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not milisecond time distribution but time related!
>>> 
>>> In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time business.  They
>>> would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc  clocks for a few
>>> dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell
>>> batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
>>> connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the
>>> top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop.  Exactly at the top
>>> of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line and it
>>> would reset the clock to the top of the hour.
>> The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
>> century. It started in 1870.
>> 
>> I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with a 
>> circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with a 
>> Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at this 
>> point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.
>> 
>> My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily 
>> and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge 
>> of the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate 
>> normally.
>> 
>> That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
>> astonishing.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> ___
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> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Tom Van Baak]

Nick Sayer writes:
> The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
> century. It started in 1870.

See also: http://leapsecond.com/history/usno.htm

> I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with a 
> circuit to recreate
> the synchronization signal for it, probably with a Raspberry Pi running ntpd 
> and a big ol’ MOSFET.
> The problem is that at this point, those clocks are quite expensive once 
> they’re reconditioned.

You will find lots of these auto-setting self-winding clocks on eBay. Some are 
very reasonably priced.

There's a bunch of clock guys out there who play with these and you'll find 
circuits and information with a google search for words like self-winding clock 
company or SWCC or Western Union USNO and so on. Start with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_Winding_Clock_Company
http://www.telechron.com/swcc/swcc.html
http://www.kensclockclinic.com/pdf/PoweringSWC.pdf
http://community.nawcc.org/chapter52/pages/selfwindingclockco

Mitch's (www.telechron.com) and Ken's (www.kensclockclinic.com) sites are 
superb.
 
Also, for a screen full of irresistible SWCC photos, try this:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch=self-winding+clock+company

> My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily 
> and, as you said,
> would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of the pulse was 
> synchronized and would
> release the clock to operate normally.
>
> That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
> astonishing.

Oh, Padawan, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the deep and 
fascinating history of precise timekeeping.

/tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Don:

I've got a number of SWCC clocks and 3V doesn't work for any of them.  I've done a number of experiments and a higher 
voltage and series resistor makes a huge improvement.



Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Don Couch wrote:

Hi, Brooke,

My self winding clock synchronizes fine on three volts. I built a synchronizer using a PIC controller with a 32KHz 
quartz crystal, running on three volts. You might want to carefully check the coil and connections on yours. By the 
way, the winding coils also are running on three volts.


Don Couch

On 10/14/2015 11:02 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Nick:

One of my Self Winding Clock Co. (WU) clocks was taken down yesterday for 
painting.
When put up one of the Ken's Clock Synchronizers was installed and the hands moved to align with the heart shaped cam 
it uses, but it never worked.
The problem was it used a 4.5 Volt signal which can develop the current needed to pull the sync electromagnet the 
time constant is far too slow.
I'm going to add a high voltage circuit with series resistor to get the time constant down one or two orders of 
magnitude.  The key to this is a PCB I make that holds 5 each 9V batteries connected in series, so I'll use one, two 
or more of them to get the time constant down.

http://www.prc68.com/P/45VS.html

Before I had the 45 Volt Stick I was considering getting the needed high voltage by charging a cap a minute or two 
before the top of the hour and discharging it through a resistor.  Here's a video showing that would work.

http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Experiments_Feb_2014_

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:

On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches  wrote:

Not milisecond time distribution but time related!

In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time business.  They
would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc clocks for a few
dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell
batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the
top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop. Exactly at the top
of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line and it
would reset the clock to the top of the hour.

The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
century. It started in 1870.

I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with a circuit to recreate the synchronization 
signal for it, probably with a Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at this point, 
those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.


My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily and, as you said, would cause the hands 
to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate normally.


That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
astonishing.
___
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Tim Shoppa]

As recently as 1987, there was poor to no absolute time synchronization at
the world's underground neutrino detectors. When light and neutrino fronts
from supernova SN1987A arrived, the best they were able to put absolute
timestamps on neutrino events was about 1 minute.

Even after the neutrino arrivals they may have been able to back-correct
timestamps on the Kamiokande data to within milliseconds, but a power
failure a few days after SN1987A detection prevented this.

The timescales that the Kamiokande and IMB neutrino detectors were
originally designed to measure? Circa 10 to the 31st years!

Today the realtime neutrino detectors are tied together into a network to
look for neutrino bursts in realtime, and even determine direction to point
optical telescopes. The neutrino burst for a SN1987A type event precedes
the optical detectability by a few hours.

Tim N3QE

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> hol...@hotmail.com said:
> > Somewhat time-nut related...  the project main application needed
> > millisecond consistent (not necessarily accurate) time stamps on a
> > world-wide network.  That was in the pre-gps, pre-fiber, pre-historic
> > before-times.  I don't think that they ever quite got there.
>
> World wide seismology took off in the early 1970s as background for nuclear
> underground non-testing treaties.  Both the US and the USSR had to be sure
> they could detect the opponents tests and distinguish tests from
> earthquakes.
>  We had seismic stations scattered around the globe.
>
> Does anybody know how they distributed time back then and/or how accurately
> they could do it?
>
> Google says the speed of sound in rock is 6-8 km/s so 10 ms error would be
> 100 meters.  That seems like a reasonable ballpark.
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Alan Melia]

Well I dont know if it was used for that but the16kHz VLF station at Rugby 
call-sign GBR was rebuilt in 1967 and the output tank circuit stiffened to 
provide better phase stability specifically foe international time standard 
comparison. The transmitter was used for initial comparisons between NPL and 
NBS (later NIST) time standards. It was also the starting point for the 
Omega nav system. Prior to that accurate time data was passed over twisted 
pairs in UK and probably Europe.


Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Hal Murray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:12 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?




hol...@hotmail.com said:

Somewhat time-nut related...  the project main application needed
millisecond consistent (not necessarily accurate) time stamps on a
world-wide network.  That was in the pre-gps, pre-fiber, pre-historic
before-times.  I don't think that they ever quite got there.


World wide seismology took off in the early 1970s as background for 
nuclear

underground non-testing treaties.  Both the US and the USSR had to be sure
they could detect the opponents tests and distinguish tests from 
earthquakes.

We had seismic stations scattered around the globe.

Does anybody know how they distributed time back then and/or how 
accurately

they could do it?

Google says the speed of sound in rock is 6-8 km/s so 10 ms error would be
100 meters.  That seems like a reasonable ballpark.



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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Howard Davidson]

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1964-07.pdf


On 10/13/2015 10:12 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

hol...@hotmail.com said:

Somewhat time-nut related...  the project main application needed
millisecond consistent (not necessarily accurate) time stamps on a
world-wide network.  That was in the pre-gps, pre-fiber, pre-historic
before-times.  I don't think that they ever quite got there.

World wide seismology took off in the early 1970s as background for nuclear
underground non-testing treaties.  Both the US and the USSR had to be sure
they could detect the opponents tests and distinguish tests from earthquakes.
  We had seismic stations scattered around the globe.

Does anybody know how they distributed time back then and/or how accurately
they could do it?

Google says the speed of sound in rock is 6-8 km/s so 10 ms error would be
100 meters.  That seems like a reasonable ballpark.





--
Howard L. Davidson
hl...@att.net

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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Will]

Hi,

They used  (late 1970's) WWV or WWVH to sync up the time.  There was
fancy system that used a neon on a rotating disc rather like an early
depth sounder. Neon flashed with seconds beep. There was a way of
rotating the field that drove the disk to advance/delay the system to
set it fairly accurately.

Cheers,
Will

On 14/10/15 18:12, Hal Murray wrote:
> hol...@hotmail.com said:
>> Somewhat time-nut related...  the project main application needed
>> millisecond consistent (not necessarily accurate) time stamps on a
>> world-wide network.  That was in the pre-gps, pre-fiber, pre-historic
>> before-times.  I don't think that they ever quite got there. 
> World wide seismology took off in the early 1970s as background for nuclear 
> underground non-testing treaties.  Both the US and the USSR had to be sure 
> they could detect the opponents tests and distinguish tests from earthquakes. 
>  We had seismic stations scattered around the globe.
>
> Does anybody know how they distributed time back then and/or how accurately 
> they could do it?
>
> Google says the speed of sound in rock is 6-8 km/s so 10 ms error would be 
> 100 meters.  That seems like a reasonable ballpark.
>
>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[billriches]

Not milisecond time distribution but time related!

In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time business.  They
would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc  clocks for a few
dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell
batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the
top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop.  Exactly at the top
of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line and it
would reset the clock to the top of the hour.

Eventually WU decided to get out of the time business and stopped the
service and they said all the customers could keep their clocks.  It was
said that at the end of that day many clocks were seen going home with some
of the workers!

I purchased one of these clocks about 15 years ago from a North New Jersey
junk dealer who had obtained several hundred of them.  My clock has a 1929
scratch mark inside and
is still ticking away. These clocks were made by the Self Winding Clock
Company and more information can be seen in the book "American Clocks Volume
2 " by Tran Duy Ly (page 177).  It loses or gains about a minute a month
depending on the moon phase or sunspots.  You can see a pic of the clock on
qrz.com under my call sign.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May



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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Nick Sayer via time-nuts]

> On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches  wrote:
> 
> Not milisecond time distribution but time related!
> 
> In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time business.  They
> would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc  clocks for a few
> dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell
> batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
> connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the
> top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop.  Exactly at the top
> of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line and it
> would reset the clock to the top of the hour.

The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
century. It started in 1870.

I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with a 
circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with a 
Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at this 
point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.

My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily 
and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of 
the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate normally.

That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
astonishing.
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Nick:

One of my Self Winding Clock Co. (WU) clocks was taken down yesterday for 
painting.
When put up one of the Ken's Clock Synchronizers was installed and the hands moved to align with the heart shaped cam it 
uses, but it never worked.
The problem was it used a 4.5 Volt signal which can develop the current needed to pull the sync electromagnet the time 
constant is far too slow.
I'm going to add a high voltage circuit with series resistor to get the time constant down one or two orders of 
magnitude.  The key to this is a PCB I make that holds 5 each 9V batteries connected in series, so I'll use one, two or 
more of them to get the time constant down.

http://www.prc68.com/P/45VS.html

Before I had the 45 Volt Stick I was considering getting the needed high voltage by charging a cap a minute or two 
before the top of the hour and discharging it through a resistor.  Here's a video showing that would work.

http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Experiments_Feb_2014_

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:

On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches  wrote:

Not milisecond time distribution but time related!

In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time business.  They
would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc  clocks for a few
dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell
batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the
top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop.  Exactly at the top
of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line and it
would reset the clock to the top of the hour.

The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
century. It started in 1870.

I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with a 
circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with a 
Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at this 
point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.

My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily 
and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of 
the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate normally.

That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
astonishing.
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Bill Hawkins]

The book "Einstein's Clocks, Poincare's Maps" describes a pneumatic time
sync method for the public clocks on poles in the city of Paris, France
in the late 1800s. Pneumatic clocks were made and used in the US for a
while. Got one from the four letter auction site and dreamed of making a
pneumatic pulse generator synched to 10 MHz. Sadly, the diaphragm in the
pneumatic mechanism had rotted away, so I gave the clock to a friend who
could make it work, but didn't. One pulse advanced the clock one minute.
There was no auxiliary clockwork to keep it running between hourly sync
pulses.

I don't know of any mechanical clocks that sync once a day. IIRC,
Western Union had to send people to advance or retard the hour hand when
daylight savings time became common.

There is something about those clocks that makes a time nut want to
restore one.

Bill Hawkins


-Original Message-
From: Nick Sayer via time-nuts
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:42 AM

The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th
century. It started in 1870.

I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up
with a circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably
with a Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol' MOSFET. The problem is
that at this point, those clocks are quite expensive once they're
reconditioned.

My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once
daily and, as you said, would cause the hands to "snap" to 12. The
trailing edge of the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock
to operate normally.

That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is
astonishing.

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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Jim Harman]

The Western Union clocks were still in use at broadcast stations in the
early 1970s. One problem was that the reset pulse and resulting jump in
time would come exactly on the hour, when you were trying to synchronize
with a network news broadcast that began at the network's version of 00:00.

ABC and I presume the other networks would send a tone 10 seconds before
their program started, By listening to the network on the "Cue" channel,
you would have a pretty good idea of when the news would start.

Another system in wide use around then and still somewhat today for
controlling the clocks in a large building was sold by Simplex. The
building would have a master clock (set manually by the custodian or
whoever) that pumped out tones at about 3 KHz over the power lines. These
signals would come out a couple of minutes before the hour, presumably to
avoid problems with events scheduled on the hour. The slave clocks were
designed to run a little fast, and would wait at 58:00 until they received
a tone to restart. I believe there was a special tone that would make the
clock run "fast forward," to deal with longer adjustments for power outages
and DST.

One drawback of this system is that the tones sometimes leak into audio
equipment, and in a quiet room they are often audible through the
fluorescent light ballasts.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th
> century. It started in 1870.
>
> --

--Jim Harman
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[bownes]

And to tie this back to the UPS thread, at university, the Simplex clock sync 
signal made our Vax 11/730 TOD clock run wy fast. 
I never figured out if it was using line frequency zero crossings for seconds 
or if it was leaking as DEC fixed it not long after it was installed. (And it 
was moved to a different phase of the power system than the clocks...)



> On Oct 14, 2015, at 15:55, Jim Harman  wrote:
> 
> The Western Union clocks were still in use at broadcast stations in the
> early 1970s. One problem was that the reset pulse and resulting jump in
> time would come exactly on the hour, when you were trying to synchronize
> with a network news broadcast that began at the network's version of 00:00.
> 
> ABC and I presume the other networks would send a tone 10 seconds before
> their program started, By listening to the network on the "Cue" channel,
> you would have a pretty good idea of when the news would start.
> 
> Another system in wide use around then and still somewhat today for
> controlling the clocks in a large building was sold by Simplex. The
> building would have a master clock (set manually by the custodian or
> whoever) that pumped out tones at about 3 KHz over the power lines. These
> signals would come out a couple of minutes before the hour, presumably to
> avoid problems with events scheduled on the hour. The slave clocks were
> designed to run a little fast, and would wait at 58:00 until they received
> a tone to restart. I believe there was a special tone that would make the
> clock run "fast forward," to deal with longer adjustments for power outages
> and DST.
> 
> One drawback of this system is that the tones sometimes leak into audio
> equipment, and in a quiet room they are often audible through the
> fluorescent light ballasts.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th
>> century. It started in 1870.
>> 
>> --
> 
> --Jim Harman
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Brian Inglis]

On 2015-10-14 10:42, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:



On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches  wrote:

Not milisecond time distribution but time related!

In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time business.  They
would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc  clocks for a few
dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell
batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the
top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop.  Exactly at the top
of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line and it
would reset the clock to the top of the hour.


The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
century. It started in 1870.

I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with a 
circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with a 
Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at this 
point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.

My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily 
and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of 
the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate normally.

That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
astonishing.


Ingenuity was never lacking - a few quotes from
https://archive.org/details/GreenwichTime - well researched and still
available in a later edition - includes many incidents which I found
humorous - the first ilustrating that TWTT long predated Cs clocks:

""Difference of longitude can be determined astronomically or geodesically (by
trigonometrical-survey methods) or, as we have seen, by the transport of
chronometers. One of the earliest examples of the use of this last method took
place during the geodetic operation to connect Paris and Greenwich
Observatories in 1784-8, instigated by Cassini de Thury and conducted on the
English side of the Channel by Major-General William Roy, FRS. In September
1785 Maskelyne sent his assistant Joseph Lindley by post-chaise and
cross-channel packet to Paris and back carrying eight of John Arnold's
chronometers, yielding a difference of longitude of 9 minutes 19.8 seconds,
only about a second too small and agreeing well with the existing astronomical
determinations and the geodetic result. 1 In 1825 a series of rockets was used
by John Herschel and Col. Sabine to connect Paris and Greenwich. The
chronometer method continued to be used for longitude determination of
observatories until the coming of the electric telegraph. For example, in 1843
more than sixty chronometers were sent sixteen times backwards and forwards
between Altona near Hamburg and Pulkowa near today's Leningrad, and the
following year forty chronometers went the same number of times between Altona
and Greenwich. Chronometers were sent across the Atlantic many times to
determine the longitude difference between Harvard and Liverpool Observatories,
from which the difference of longitude between Harvard and Greenwich was
accurately determined. In 1844 the longitude of Valentia Island and the west
coast of Ireland was found in this way, under Airy's superintendence."

"The use of the electric telegraph for this purpose was first suggested by the
American astronomer S. C. Walker and first used in the USA about 1849. As we
have seen, the telegraphic connections between Greenwich and the Continent were
suggested by Airy in 1851, connection with Brussels being established in 1853,
and with Paris in 1854. The longitude of Valentia was redetermined by telegraph
in 1862."

"The first successful submarine cable was laid across the English Channel in
1851. Wales and Scotland were linked with Ireland in 1852, England with Belgium
and Denmark in 1853. By 1860 London was connected with the Indian subcontinent,
one of the longest submarine cables being between Malta and Alexandria, 1,565
miles. But the really exciting prospect was a cable - perhaps more than one
-between Europe and North America. Its main protagonist was the great American
Cyrus W. Field (1819-92), whose untiring efforts provided the impetus
throughout."

"The next year, however, a new cable was successfully laid by the Great Eastern,
taking fourteen days from Valentia to Heart's Content in Newfoundland. To
complete the triumph, the Great Eastern successfully grappled the 1865 cable,
spliced it on to cable remaining on board, and thus provided a second cable
link across the Atlantic.

One of the factors leading to this success was that during the 1866 lay, at the
suggestion of Captain Anderson, the Greenwich time signal was received by the
Great Eastern twice daily by telegraph via London, Holyhead, Dublin, Valentia,
and the cable she was laying, thus enabling her to find her longitude exactly.
This 

Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Bob Bownes]

Precise time (and time zones) and the relationship with the telegraph were
a side effect of the railroads. You need to keep time (and keep on time) in
order to avoid collisions on single tracked main lines.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

>
> > On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches  wrote:
> >
> > Not milisecond time distribution but time related!
> >
> > In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time business.
> They
> > would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc  clocks for a
> few
> > dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell
> > batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
> > connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the
> > top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop.  Exactly at the
> top
> > of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line
> and it
> > would reset the clock to the top of the hour.
>
> The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th
> century. It started in 1870.
>
> I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with
> a circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with a
> Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at this
> point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.
>
> My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once
> daily and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing
> edge of the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate
> normally.
>
> That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is
> astonishing.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[billriches]

I have been using 2 D cells in series to wind my clock - Every Labor Day I 
change the batteries!  Has anyone used Ken's for a rebuild.  Mine is still 
chugging along - amazing as some of the bushings are ovals and the gears can 
really move around in them!!

73,

Bill

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 2:02 PM
To: Nick Sayer; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

Hi Nick:

One of my Self Winding Clock Co. (WU) clocks was taken down yesterday for 
painting.
When put up one of the Ken's Clock Synchronizers was installed and the hands 
moved to align with the heart shaped cam it uses, but it never worked.
The problem was it used a 4.5 Volt signal which can develop the current needed 
to pull the sync electromagnet the time constant is far too slow.
I'm going to add a high voltage circuit with series resistor to get the time 
constant down one or two orders of magnitude.  The key to this is a PCB I make 
that holds 5 each 9V batteries connected in series, so I'll use one, two or 
more of them to get the time constant down.
http://www.prc68.com/P/45VS.html

Before I had the 45 Volt Stick I was considering getting the needed high 
voltage by charging a cap a minute or two before the top of the hour and 
discharging it through a resistor.  Here's a video showing that would work.
http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Experiments_Feb_2014_

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>> On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches <bill.ric...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> Not milisecond time distribution but time related!
>>
>> In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time 
>> business.  They would rent businesses such as banks, office 
>> buildings, etc  clocks for a few dollars a month.  These were 
>> pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry cell batteries inside that 
>> would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were connected to the WU 
>> telegraph line and for a minute before and after  the top of the hour 
>> all traffic on the circuit would stop.  Exactly at the top of the 
>> hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the line and it would 
>> reset the clock to the top of the hour.
> The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 20th 
> century. It started in 1870.
>
> I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up with a 
> circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, probably with a 
> Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The problem is that at this 
> point, those clocks are quite expensive once they’re reconditioned.
>
> My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once daily 
> and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The trailing edge of 
> the pulse was synchronized and would release the clock to operate normally.
>
> That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early is 
> astonishing.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Don Couch]

Hi, Brooke,

My self winding clock synchronizes fine on three volts. I built a 
synchronizer using a PIC controller with a 32KHz quartz crystal, running 
on three volts. You might want to carefully check the coil and 
connections on yours. By the way, the winding coils also are running on 
three volts.


Don Couch

On 10/14/2015 11:02 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Nick:

One of my Self Winding Clock Co. (WU) clocks was taken down yesterday 
for painting.
When put up one of the Ken's Clock Synchronizers was installed and the 
hands moved to align with the heart shaped cam it uses, but it never 
worked.
The problem was it used a 4.5 Volt signal which can develop the 
current needed to pull the sync electromagnet the time constant is far 
too slow.
I'm going to add a high voltage circuit with series resistor to get 
the time constant down one or two orders of magnitude.  The key to 
this is a PCB I make that holds 5 each 9V batteries connected in 
series, so I'll use one, two or more of them to get the time constant 
down.

http://www.prc68.com/P/45VS.html

Before I had the 45 Volt Stick I was considering getting the needed 
high voltage by charging a cap a minute or two before the top of the 
hour and discharging it through a resistor.  Here's a video showing 
that would work.

http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Experiments_Feb_2014_

Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
On Oct 14, 2015, at 4:42 AM, billriches  
wrote:


Not milisecond time distribution but time related!

In the early half of the 1900s Western Union was in the time 
business.  They
would rent businesses such as banks, office buildings, etc clocks 
for a few
dollars a month.  These were pendulum wall clocks that had 2 #6 dry 
cell

batteries inside that would wind them every hour or so. The clocks were
connected to the WU telegraph line and for a minute before and 
after  the
top of the hour all traffic on the circuit would stop. Exactly at 
the top
of the hour they would push a pulse of 50 ? volts or so over the 
line and it

would reset the clock to the top of the hour.
The WU standard time service goes back further than the turn of the 
20th century. It started in 1870.


I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of those clocks and come up 
with a circuit to recreate the synchronization signal for it, 
probably with a Raspberry Pi running ntpd and a big ol’ MOSFET. The 
problem is that at this point, those clocks are quite expensive once 
they’re reconditioned.


My understanding (perhaps incorrect) was that the sync pulse was once 
daily and, as you said, would cause the hands to “snap” to 12. The 
trailing edge of the pulse was synchronized and would release the 
clock to operate normally.


That they had something as accurate and widespread as it was so early 
is astonishing.

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Re: [time-nuts] How did they distribute time in the old days?

[Hal Murray]

bow...@gmail.com said:
> I never figured out if it was using line frequency zero crossings for
> seconds or if it was leaking as DEC fixed it not long after it was
> installed. (And it was moved to a different phase of the power system than
> the clocks...) 

I remember a story from ages ago...  A machine was keeping crappy time.  It 
was a 60 Hz box running in a 50 Hz country.  Things got a lot better after 
the frequency converter box was adjusted.

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