Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
There is already a time scale that is extensively used that has no leap seconds - GPS. Software could use that rather than UTC for its root time. David On 7/2/12 1:59 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message20120702025355.ga22...@puck.nether.net, Majdi S. Abbas writes: On Mon, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:24:33AM +1000, Jim Palfreyman wrote: Understand that yesterday's situation was specific to one operating system, which accepted a patch to its kernel a few years ago that was never really tested. [...] I don't want to see anyone hurt, but pandering to bad software just gets you more bad software. At some point quality has to matter. Testing software for correct handling of leap-seconds is a major undertaking which very few people have the kit and skill to do. You can get better quality either by paying a lot more money for software or by removing or reducing the impact of this gottcha feature from the programs environment. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
In message 4ff166e7.1060...@alum.dartmouth.org, David McGaw writes: There is already a time scale that is extensively used that has no leap seconds - GPS. Software could use that rather than UTC for its root time. For all purposes GPS = TAI + constant, and it would be a lot easier to get the rest of the world to accept rule/standards-making based on TAI than GPS for political reasons. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
I'm not a huge fan of leap seconds for enterprise computing enviornments unless there is a regulatory or other legal requirement for the system time to exactly match legal time. I'm quite happy that my own personal time server didn't support the leap second (: -- On Sun, 1 Jul, 2012 8:24 PM EDT Jim Palfreyman wrote: As an astronomer I've been a supporter of the current leap second situation and have not really liked the idea of changing. However, after yesterday I'm thinking of changing my mind. I quite enjoyed having to go through and change all my clocks (including a pendulum clock - now that's a pain!), but then the news came through that Amadeus crashed worldwide. Passengers everywhere were left stranded for hours because of this. Y2K all over again - but this time something big happened. This could also have been serious. Were planes tested in-flight for this? I bet they weren't. Software writers the world over are notorious for not fully testing their code, so the leap second situation in our increasingly time-dependent world has the potential to one day take a life. Maybe it is time to swallow this bitter pill and remove the leap second. I haven't jumped ship yet - but I'm very very close. Thoughts? Jim Palfreyman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
Hi, From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Testing software for correct handling of leap-seconds is a major undertaking which very few people have the kit and skill to do. A software that crashes/behaves badly when the time is updated is a bad software. Bye, Jean-Louis ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
In message 6A49BBA9110943DEA397D3F7929F32E3@garadm, Jean-Louis Noel writes: Hi, From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Testing software for correct handling of leap-seconds is a major undertaking which very few people have the kit and skill to do. A software that crashes/behaves badly when the time is updated is a bad software. A timescale that is not predictable is a bad timescale. Yes, platitudes like that make for good sound-bites, but it doesn't bring us any closer to a solution. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
Hi, From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Yes, platitudes like that make for good sound-bites, but it doesn't bring us any closer to a solution. I am not considering timescale. What happens to your system if you set the clock in the past by hand? Mine continues working has it should be. Bye, Jean-Louis ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
David McGaw n1...@alum.dartmouth.org wrote: There is already a time scale that is extensively used that has no leap seconds - GPS. Software could use that rather than UTC for its root time. This just moves the problem. The software still has to use UTC when talking to the rest of the world. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Tyne, Dogger: South 5 or 6, decreasing 3 or 4. Slight or moderate. Rain, fog patches developing. Good, becoming moderate, occasionally very poor. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
Considering how slowly the seconds accumulate, 99.99% of the population wouldn't even notice that sunrise was what, 30 seconds off over the course of a century? The very few that do need to keep track of the rotations of the Earth precisely could easily do so using a library routine that knew the machinations of the slowdown of the Earth... past and present. Why put everyone on Earth at risk when it isn't even close to necessary? -Chuck Harris Neville Michie wrote: I think a small poke at the system, like inserting a leap second, would save lives. If a system has degraded to a house of cards, the sooner someone pokes it the better. It may also point to those responsible who are not handling their responsibilty of providing bullet proof code. If you can not make a system reliable enough to insert a leap second it probably cannot handle any other unexpected insult, and that may have far worse consequences. Just my 2p worth, Neville Michie ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
On 7/1/12 10:54 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 4ff0f373.1020...@pacific.net, Brooke Clarke writes: Would you rather have these minor problems or have a much bigger one when they make a larger correction? But isn't that exactly why it is a problem ? News coverage of leapseconds are mostly along the lines of What can you do with an extra second ? as filler material on page 7 Whereas coverage of DST changes is REMEMBER TO SET YOUR CLOCKS! on the frontpage. which is an interesting thing.. if instead of DST (for which I think there's little practical reason to have in the first place).. say you just shifted the clock one minute earlier or later each day, gradually moving it to the new alignment relative to solar day. Most people wouldn't notice: they use their phone as a time standard, and the phone would display the current time. People with analog clocks would reset them. People with drifting digital clocks would reset them (just like I do with the one in the car every once in a while). Sure, there would be some whining from software developers at first, but once you've figured out to smoothly handle arbitrary drops and adds, it's done forever. Yes, we'd lose the annual cue to replace our smoke alarm batteries. Oh, and we'd lose the clever newspaper articles about more/less drinking time, due to bar closing on or after the transition time. An abrubt 1 hour change is much more disruptive for things like employee time cards than a gradual one minute change per day. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
In message 4ff19d3c.4050...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes: which is an interesting thing.. if instead of DST (for which I think there's little practical reason to have in the first place).. say you just shifted the clock one minute earlier or later each day, gradually moving it to the new alignment relative to solar day. Why bother ? Just make everybody use TAI and make T-O-D alignment a cultural thing rather than a numerological superstition ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
On 7/2/12 6:19 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 4ff19d3c.4050...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes: which is an interesting thing.. if instead of DST (for which I think there's little practical reason to have in the first place).. say you just shifted the clock one minute earlier or later each day, gradually moving it to the new alignment relative to solar day. Why bother ? Just make everybody use TAI and make T-O-D alignment a cultural thing rather than a numerological superstition ? I agree with you, P-H... but if we ARE going to establish artificial connections between wall clock time (work hours, store opening times, bar closing times, etc.) and the sun, why not do it gradually. People are used to accommodating small deltas in time (e.g. my wife, who sets the dash clock in her car 10-15 minutes fast) and periodically readjusting to personal preference. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
I know this is hard for you Mike, try and pay attention. Mike S wrote: On 7/2/2012 8:36 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: Why put everyone on Earth at risk when it isn't even close to necessary? Are you arguing the Luddite POV? All non-trivial software has faults, so why risk using it? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
On 7/2/2012 9:41 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: I know this is hard for you Mike, try and pay attention. Are insults really a necessary part of your argument? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
On 7/2/2012 9:28 AM, Jim Lux wrote: but if we ARE going to establish artificial connections between wall clock time (work hours, store opening times, bar closing times, etc.) and the sun, why not do it gradually. Time and the sun are certainly a _natural_ connection, not an artificial one. Units of time start with the day. Subdivided, we get HMS, measured from the maximum height of the sun. Greater, years, which were measured in days. It's the artificial definition of the SI second which has caused all the problems. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
On 7/2/12 7:08 AM, Mike S wrote: On 7/2/2012 9:28 AM, Jim Lux wrote: but if we ARE going to establish artificial connections between wall clock time (work hours, store opening times, bar closing times, etc.) and the sun, why not do it gradually. Time and the sun are certainly a _natural_ connection, not an artificial one. Units of time start with the day. Subdivided, we get HMS, measured from the maximum height of the sun. Greater, years, which were measured in days. It's the artificial definition of the SI second which has caused all the problems. I was thinking of the artificial connection between wall clock and sun in the daylight saving time sense. We already deal with the variation between clock time and solar time during the year (equation of time, and all that) which is of a much larger magnitude than the leap second, and that probably antedates SI time (or mean time, in any case) since however long we've had clocks that are stable enough to measure it. If we are to retain the idea of the sun rising and setting later during the warmer months (relative to mean time or normal clock time), then I would suggest we do away with the large step change twice a year and replace it with a 1 minute/day shift during 2 months, and then repeat the process again later to bring it back into alignment. This will have the benefit of: 1) providing work for software developers, who otherwise be laid off for lack of work, and would no doubt do things bad for society: idle hands and all that are bad enough; intelligent idle hands are even more dangerous. 2) improving the overall time change robustness of the software which has an increasingly pervasive effect on our day to day life 3) provide work for many, many congressional aides and news media to come up with talking points, analysis, and so forth; avoiding laying them off as well; although I don't know that the danger of idle hands from ex congressional aides is more or less than unemployed software developers. 4) provide a political issue of little real consequence to occupy the time and minds of legislators: a displacement activity, much like cleaning out the garage when you should be doing your tax returns or paying the bills. 5) provide work and employment for petition signature gatherers who will no doubt appear in front of my local supermarket for initiatives to either support or suppress or some of both the new scheme. 6) provide income for media outlets to run the plethora of advertisements pro and con 7) provide something for the extraordinarily wealthy to spend their money on through nebulous organizations to pay for those ads that provides some degree of entertainment for time-nuts, without seriously affecting the overall health and well-being of the populace, no matter which way the decision goes. Finally, my modest hope is that this scheme will achieve for me the fame it achieved for Ben Franklin inventing daylight saving time. I look forward to my great-great-grandchildren (should I have any) learning about Lux time as being the revolution that fixed the problems with Franklin time. (Ol' Ben and I have many shared interests.. electricity, time, artificial tornadoes, lightning, etc., and I'm always pleased when I can carry his finely engraved picture in my wallet) I mean, who can name an arbitrary Nobel prize winner? But everyone knows who Ben is. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: which is an interesting thing.. if instead of DST (for which I think there's little practical reason to have in the first place).. say you just shifted the clock one minute earlier or later each day, gradually moving it to the new alignment relative to solar day. DST exists because people prefer to align the timetabled active part of the day to sunrise rather than midday. But there are too many difficulties with counting time from actual sunrise and reconciling differences due to latitude and longitude. So we quantize everything to an hour (mostly). Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Trafalgar: Northerly 5 to 7, but mainly 4 in northwest. Moderate. Fair. Moderate or good. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18672173 Rob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tony Finch Sent: 02 July 2012 16:26 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay? Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: which is an interesting thing.. if instead of DST (for which I think there's little practical reason to have in the first place).. say you just shifted the clock one minute earlier or later each day, gradually moving it to the new alignment relative to solar day. DST exists because people prefer to align the timetabled active part of the day to sunrise rather than midday. But there are too many difficulties with counting time from actual sunrise and reconciling differences due to latitude and longitude. So we quantize everything to an hour (mostly). Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Trafalgar: Northerly 5 to 7, but mainly 4 in northwest. Moderate. Fair. Moderate or good. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
Hi Mike, Clearly when you called me a Luddite you were passing me a complement? For whatever reason, you have taken it upon yourself to behave like an ass towards me whenever I post on this group. Don't be surprised when I respond to your impolite behavior. The argument is simple. There is no need for the time to perfectly match the earth's revolution for 99.99% of the population. Why should they be subject to the unnecessary risks and down time that failures of the fiddly little fixes for the leap second cause? The Earth slows down about 30 seconds for every century that passes. Most folks wouldn't even be able to formulate a method whereby they could measure that small of a shift. The only group that really needs to have time match the Earth's rotation is astronomers. They can take care of their own needs by simply feeding a TAI like timescale to a library function that will apply the correction. -Chuck Harris Mike S wrote: On 7/2/2012 9:41 AM, Chuck Harris wrote: I know this is hard for you Mike, try and pay attention. Are insults really a necessary part of your argument? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
On 7/2/2012 1:04 PM, Chuck Harris wrote: Clearly when you called me a Luddite you were passing me a complement? I called you no such thing. I asked if you were arguing from that point of view, since you were arguing against using technology because of the risk. That seems to be characterized fairly as a luddite view. There are groups of people who hold luddite views against technology, I don't agree with them, but wouldn't disrespect them by implying that a comparison to them was an insult. The question I posed has gone unanswered. All software has bugs, and that creates risk. Do you have some formula to determine a universally acceptable risk/benefit cutoff? For whatever reason, you have taken it upon yourself to behave like an ass towards me whenever I post on this group. Again, your arguments rely on insults, which only shows their value. If you feel threatened by arguments against positions you hold, it might be better to not mention them in the first place. The only group that really needs to have time match the Earth's rotation is astronomers. They can take care of their own needs by simply feeding a TAI like timescale to a library function that will apply the correction. As if TAI were the One True God, from which all else must flow. And that it's you who gets to decide what all others should need or want. there is no need for the time to perfectly match the earth's revolution for 99.99% of the population. OK, then there is no need for atomic clock precision wall/civil time for 100% of the population. Where such precision is needed, properly designed devices already use TAI or a variant (e.g. GPS, cellular systems). The artificial definition of the SI second is what created this mess. Better that they would have, like the meter before, simply created a new unit instead of usurping an existing one with a well understood meaning and a long historical record. Why not 1 chron = 10 Cs periods, instead of unlinking the second from astronomical time? Beyond that, as I've said, anyone who doesn't like leap seconds but uses UTC anyway has made their own bed. If they've been somehow forced into using it, live with it, or appeal to the authority which made that choice. Breaking what UTC was specifically meant to be (a close link to UTx) by eliminating leap seconds is simply the lazy man's kludge. It's very presumptuous to say we made a bad choice to use this thing with a messy characteristic we don't require, so let's change it and break things for those who made the choice precisely because they need/want that characteristic. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Just make everybody use TAI and make T-O-D alignment a cultural thing rather than a numerological superstition? No. Not every body - every computer. Let the fragile, programmer-bound computer systems, like transaction time-stamping for high frequency stock trading, use TAI (or any monotonically increasing method of marking time). Let every human interface to such data translate TAI to the local time zone, seasonal time offset, and earth rotation offset. The data will always be in increasing time order, no matter what the translator does. The original timestamps may be viewed directly when local time does not matter. It works for trending analog process data in manufacturing plants that observe seasonal time (not all US states do). Bill Hawkins P.S. During the manufactured oil crisis of 1974, that started us on the path to multinational corps that are large enough to challenge national governments for power, the DST dates were extended to *save energy*. Not even the deaths of school children walking in the dark to a bus stop were able to restore the system that worked. As to shifting a minute a day for seasonal time, the first reason for standardizing time was railroad transportation with multiple use of the same track coupled with the cost of printing train schedules. P.P.S I make this suggestion because I have no idea what makes people so upset with the idea of time corrections. Humans are involved, so there will always be corrections. Julian dating was a correction. -Original Message- From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 8:19 AM Jim Lux writes: which is an interesting thing.. if instead of DST (for which I think there's little practical reason to have in the first place).. say you just shifted the clock one minute earlier or later each day, gradually moving it to the new alignment relative to solar day. Why bother ? Just make everybody use TAI and make T-O-D alignment a cultural thing rather than a numerological superstition ? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay? / What did I do for my Leap Second.
Are insults really a necessary part of your argument? Are you arguing the Luddite POV? I was text chatting with my wife when I mentioned how hot it was here in Kunar Province. She told me that lots of places are having a heat wave. I guess the temps are affecting some people. So what did I do with my extra second? Afghanistan is in the +4.5 time-zone, so I slept through it. I'm happy with that. Any others on this list in one of the x.5 time-zones? --adam, wh6m ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
Hi Jim: Would you rather have these minor problems or have a much bigger one when they make a larger correction? That's assuming that the leap second would be replaced by the leap minute or something similar on a larger time scale so that the the time had some relationship to the Earth's rotation. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Jim Palfreyman wrote: As an astronomer I've been a supporter of the current leap second situation and have not really liked the idea of changing. However, after yesterday I'm thinking of changing my mind. I quite enjoyed having to go through and change all my clocks (including a pendulum clock - now that's a pain!), but then the news came through that Amadeus crashed worldwide. Passengers everywhere were left stranded for hours because of this. Y2K all over again - but this time something big happened. This could also have been serious. Were planes tested in-flight for this? I bet they weren't. Software writers the world over are notorious for not fully testing their code, so the leap second situation in our increasingly time-dependent world has the potential to one day take a life. Maybe it is time to swallow this bitter pill and remove the leap second. I haven't jumped ship yet - but I'm very very close. Thoughts? Jim Palfreyman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
On 7/1/2012 8:24 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: Thoughts? UTC was specifically defined/specified to closely track the other UTx timescales. Breaking that link penalizes those who use it as it was intended. If being close to solar time isn't important for some applications, and they don't want to deal with leap seconds, they shouldn't be using UTC. There are multiple non-leap timescales already available for their use, or they can create a new one. If there are legal reasons they need to use UTC, work to change the laws. Returning to GMT (or a UTx scale not linked to the TAI rate) would be a logical choice. Eliminating leap seconds from UTC breaks it. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
With a large correction then maybe people would take it more seriously like they did Y2K? On 2 July 2012 11:03, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi Jim: Would you rather have these minor problems or have a much bigger one when they make a larger correction? That's assuming that the leap second would be replaced by the leap minute or something similar on a larger time scale so that the the time had some relationship to the Earth's rotation. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.**end2partygovernment.com/**2012Issues.htmlhttp://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Jim Palfreyman wrote: As an astronomer I've been a supporter of the current leap second situation and have not really liked the idea of changing. However, after yesterday I'm thinking of changing my mind. I quite enjoyed having to go through and change all my clocks (including a pendulum clock - now that's a pain!), but then the news came through that Amadeus crashed worldwide. Passengers everywhere were left stranded for hours because of this. Y2K all over again - but this time something big happened. This could also have been serious. Were planes tested in-flight for this? I bet they weren't. Software writers the world over are notorious for not fully testing their code, so the leap second situation in our increasingly time-dependent world has the potential to one day take a life. Maybe it is time to swallow this bitter pill and remove the leap second. I haven't jumped ship yet - but I'm very very close. Thoughts? Jim Palfreyman __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
On Mon, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:24:33AM +1000, Jim Palfreyman wrote: As an astronomer I've been a supporter of the current leap second situation and have not really liked the idea of changing. As someone who still owns a sextant and almanac, I concur. :) However, after yesterday I'm thinking of changing my mind. Understand that yesterday's situation was specific to one operating system, which accepted a patch to its kernel a few years ago that was never really tested. What happened was more of a condemnation of bad software and no testing. FWIW, I spent most of today cleaning up after it, and I still feel this way. This could have been extensively tested. It wasn't. It's not hard to simulate a leap, either via ntp, or directly via mechanisms like adjtime(). Finally, if people really don't want to deal with leaps, they are welcome to use TAI. Why have two atomic timescales that don't observe the leap, offset a fixed number of seconds from each other? This could also have been serious. Were planes tested in-flight for this? I bet they weren't. Speaking for myself, I was on Southwest 2449 during the leap, and wasn't for a moment concerned about it. I trust the flight crew to do their jobs. Software writers the world over are notorious for not fully testing their code, so the leap second situation in our increasingly time-dependent world has the potential to one day take a life. I can think of a lot of other ways bad code could kill someone ( utility control systems, heart monitors, automotive control, etc.) I don't want to see anyone hurt, but pandering to bad software just gets you more bad software. At some point quality has to matter. --msa ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
Completely agree with Brooke and Mike S. This is not the first time that software developers have dropped the ball and later complained that the problem is too difficult. In my experience, nobody assigned time or resources to the problem. What better group than this to come up with a definitive way to handle leap seconds if UTC must be used. How did I use my leap second? I never noticed it - and that's the way human scale time should be. Is there any way to do forensic investigations of software that failed? Can developers be convinced that investigation can be done without casting blame on anyone? This means keeping the media out of it. Else, we are condemned to repeat history, in the Santayanan sense. Bill Hawkins - who would like to declare independence of time, but his body won't let him. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
I think a small poke at the system, like inserting a leap second, would save lives. If a system has degraded to a house of cards, the sooner someone pokes it the better. It may also point to those responsible who are not handling their responsibilty of providing bullet proof code. If you can not make a system reliable enough to insert a leap second it probably cannot handle any other unexpected insult, and that may have far worse consequences. Just my 2p worth, Neville Michie ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
In message 4ff0f373.1020...@pacific.net, Brooke Clarke writes: Would you rather have these minor problems or have a much bigger one when they make a larger correction? But isn't that exactly why it is a problem ? News coverage of leapseconds are mostly along the lines of What can you do with an extra second ? as filler material on page 7 Whereas coverage of DST changes is REMEMBER TO SET YOUR CLOCKS! on the frontpage. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Leap second? Yay or nay?
In message 20120702025355.ga22...@puck.nether.net, Majdi S. Abbas writes: On Mon, Jul 02, 2012 at 10:24:33AM +1000, Jim Palfreyman wrote: Understand that yesterday's situation was specific to one operating system, which accepted a patch to its kernel a few years ago that was never really tested. [...] I don't want to see anyone hurt, but pandering to bad software just gets you more bad software. At some point quality has to matter. Testing software for correct handling of leap-seconds is a major undertaking which very few people have the kit and skill to do. You can get better quality either by paying a lot more money for software or by removing or reducing the impact of this gottcha feature from the programs environment. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
