Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
you can probably cite from the time-nuts archive jim s j...@jwsss.com wrote: On 9/11/2012 10:01 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: The SC cut crystal is generally credited to Jack Kusters (of HP) and Errol Ernisse. The story was something like Errol proposed the concept and Jack actually made the first one, which was quite non-trivial. Jack used to joke that SC stood for Santa Clara. (Jack and I worked for the old HP Santa Clara Division). Jack, along with Charles Adams and Jim Collin, produced 100's of thousands of SC cut crystals and taught the rest of the industry how to make them. Jack was very particular about making them correctly in terms of angle of cut, etc. He was really proud of his X-ray system that was accurate to 2 arc-seconds. This was instrumental in being able to actually fabricate true SC cut crystals. Rick Karlquist N6RK If there is a web citation of this, I can edit the article and add the citation and information. I don't like any of the citations in the section about SC cuts because none of the verbiage is still visible and as you mention the critical information as to the origin is missing after stating it originated in 1974. At the least a citation with Rick's info and a date would be better in the first sentence if it is online. I hate that they require online citation, but have no way of ensuring you can go to the source material even given the link. There is a peeing contest ongoing about that on another thread and list which is why I'm responding here.these bits of information from you guys who probably know better than most are not considered the best source, which I think is silly. jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
On 09/12/2012 01:55 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote: Useful: I have found other papers on the Kalman filter applied to clock estimation. Thank you, Magnus. You are welcome, I actually just followed through on Rick's hint as I know there is useful info there, and I wanted to show it more clearly. I don't recall if I read those Kalman filter papers. What do you want to do? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
Write a model of the OCXO, use the Kalman filter to generate the steering data so that they are cleaner and drive the DAC more frequently. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 12:05 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 09/12/2012 01:55 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote: Useful: I have found other papers on the Kalman filter applied to clock estimation. Thank you, Magnus. You are welcome, I actually just followed through on Rick's hint as I know there is useful info there, and I wanted to show it more clearly. I don't recall if I read those Kalman filter papers. What do you want to do? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
In message caa-f0u_nods3pyr384php4-v53qo7cjnmzd0ostapmgo9gw...@mail.gmail.com , Pete Lancashire writes: Curious who came up with the SC cut first ? I think I saw that mentioned in a BSTJ article I read recently. I'm reading them all, end to end, so don't ask me which one... Go here: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/ Search for quartz or any other interesting word, but only if you have nothing important to do for a couple of hours... My favorite so far: The incredible short timespan from somebody noticed that a diode with a scratch in the black coating produced a voltage when light hit it, until the launched a satellite covered in solar cells... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
Hi The answer to any crystal cut origin question is always a bit murky. People have been chopping quarts in strange ways for quite a while. Certainly the first to popularize the SC cut were the boys at HP. One common answer to these questions is it's in Heising: http://books.google.com/books/about/Quartz_crystals_for_electrical_circuits. html?id=2-4gMAAJ Of course a *lot* depends on just how much you read between the lines The Wikipedia article is a bit odd. The crystal oscillator industry was quite crowded long before Statek came along. There is a *lot* of history missing there... Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:00 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] SC Cut Curious who came up with the SC cut first ? The well done Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator doesn't say -pete ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
It is credited to Errol EerNisse in 1974 who discovered it mathematically. David On 9/11/12 12:08 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message caa-f0u_nods3pyr384php4-v53qo7cjnmzd0ostapmgo9gw...@mail.gmail.com , Pete Lancashire writes: Curious who came up with the SC cut first ? I think I saw that mentioned in a BSTJ article I read recently. I'm reading them all, end to end, so don't ask me which one... Go here: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/ Search for quartz or any other interesting word, but only if you have nothing important to do for a couple of hours... My favorite so far: The incredible short timespan from somebody noticed that a diode with a scratch in the black coating produced a voltage when light hit it, until the launched a satellite covered in solar cells... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
The SC cut crystal is generally credited to Jack Kusters (of HP) and Errol Ernisse. The story was something like Errol proposed the concept and Jack actually made the first one, which was quite non-trivial. Jack used to joke that SC stood for Santa Clara. (Jack and I worked for the old HP Santa Clara Division). Jack, along with Charles Adams and Jim Collin, produced 100's of thousands of SC cut crystals and taught the rest of the industry how to make them. Jack was very particular about making them correctly in terms of angle of cut, etc. He was really proud of his X-ray system that was accurate to 2 arc-seconds. This was instrumental in being able to actually fabricate true SC cut crystals. Rick Karlquist N6RK On 9/11/2012 9:38 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The answer to any crystal cut origin question is always a bit murky. People have been chopping quarts in strange ways for quite a while. Certainly the first to popularize the SC cut were the boys at HP. One common answer to these questions is it's in Heising: http://books.google.com/books/about/Quartz_crystals_for_electrical_circuits. html?id=2-4gMAAJ Of course a *lot* depends on just how much you read between the lines The Wikipedia article is a bit odd. The crystal oscillator industry was quite crowded long before Statek came along. There is a *lot* of history missing there... Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:00 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] SC Cut Curious who came up with the SC cut first ? The well done Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator doesn't say -pete ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
On 9/11/2012 10:01 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: The SC cut crystal is generally credited to Jack Kusters (of HP) and Errol Ernisse. The story was something like Errol proposed the concept and Jack actually made the first one, which was quite non-trivial. Jack used to joke that SC stood for Santa Clara. (Jack and I worked for the old HP Santa Clara Division). Jack, along with Charles Adams and Jim Collin, produced 100's of thousands of SC cut crystals and taught the rest of the industry how to make them. Jack was very particular about making them correctly in terms of angle of cut, etc. He was really proud of his X-ray system that was accurate to 2 arc-seconds. This was instrumental in being able to actually fabricate true SC cut crystals. Rick Karlquist N6RK If there is a web citation of this, I can edit the article and add the citation and information. I don't like any of the citations in the section about SC cuts because none of the verbiage is still visible and as you mention the critical information as to the origin is missing after stating it originated in 1974. At the least a citation with Rick's info and a date would be better in the first sentence if it is online. I hate that they require online citation, but have no way of ensuring you can go to the source material even given the link. There is a peeing contest ongoing about that on another thread and list which is why I'm responding here.these bits of information from you guys who probably know better than most are not considered the best source, which I think is silly. jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
There is plenty of documentation at the IEEE web site in the UFFC society's section. EerNisse gave a paper at the Frequency Control Symposium on it at the time. Kusters followed up a year later with experimental data. I am not aware of any controversy about these two guys being the inventors, and I have attended many FCS's. I don't know how you prove to the Wiki police that there is no paper predating EerNisse's paper. Maybe there is a patent on it. On 9/11/2012 2:22 PM, jim s wrote: On 9/11/2012 10:01 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: The SC cut crystal is generally credited to Jack Kusters (of HP) and Errol Ernisse. The story was something like Errol proposed the concept and Jack actually made the first one, which was quite non-trivial. Jack used to joke that SC stood for Santa Clara. (Jack and I worked for the old HP Santa Clara Division). Jack, along with Charles Adams and Jim Collin, produced 100's of thousands of SC cut crystals and taught the rest of the industry how to make them. Jack was very particular about making them correctly in terms of angle of cut, etc. He was really proud of his X-ray system that was accurate to 2 arc-seconds. This was instrumental in being able to actually fabricate true SC cut crystals. Rick Karlquist N6RK If there is a web citation of this, I can edit the article and add the citation and information. I don't like any of the citations in the section about SC cuts because none of the verbiage is still visible and as you mention the critical information as to the origin is missing after stating it originated in 1974. At the least a citation with Rick's info and a date would be better in the first sentence if it is online. I hate that they require online citation, but have no way of ensuring you can go to the source material even given the link. There is a peeing contest ongoing about that on another thread and list which is why I'm responding here.these bits of information from you guys who probably know better than most are not considered the best source, which I think is silly. jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
On 09/12/2012 12:00 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: There is plenty of documentation at the IEEE web site in the UFFC society's section. EerNisse gave a paper at the Frequency Control Symposium on it at the time. Kusters followed up a year later with experimental data. I am not aware of any controversy about these two guys being the inventors, and I have attended many FCS's. I don't know how you prove to the Wiki police that there is no paper predating EerNisse's paper. Maybe there is a patent on it. UFFC has some excellent resources on the web which does not require you to be a member to use: http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching.asp If you go for Doubly Rotated Thickness Mode Plate Vibrators by Arthur Ballato (one of several usual suspects) http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching/pdf/Ballato.pdf On page 16 you find that both of them get's referenced for the SC-cut, but with years being reversed from what has been given in this thread. Regardless, there it is. Online. For free. Take it and run with it Jim! Please make liberal use of that UFFC teaching resource. As I recall the Wikipedia stuff, they prefer free web-references over others, but it's not completely ruled out to use sources not available on those terms. It just makes it harder to check when they can't read it widely. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
Useful: I have found other papers on the Kalman filter applied to clock estimation. Thank you, Magnus. On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:58 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 09/12/2012 12:00 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: There is plenty of documentation at the IEEE web site in the UFFC society's section. EerNisse gave a paper at the Frequency Control Symposium on it at the time. Kusters followed up a year later with experimental data. I am not aware of any controversy about these two guys being the inventors, and I have attended many FCS's. I don't know how you prove to the Wiki police that there is no paper predating EerNisse's paper. Maybe there is a patent on it. UFFC has some excellent resources on the web which does not require you to be a member to use: http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching.asp If you go for Doubly Rotated Thickness Mode Plate Vibrators by Arthur Ballato (one of several usual suspects) http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching/pdf/Ballato.pdf On page 16 you find that both of them get's referenced for the SC-cut, but with years being reversed from what has been given in this thread. Regardless, there it is. Online. For free. Take it and run with it Jim! Please make liberal use of that UFFC teaching resource. As I recall the Wikipedia stuff, they prefer free web-references over others, but it's not completely ruled out to use sources not available on those terms. It just makes it harder to check when they can't read it widely. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
On 9/11/12 3:58 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 09/12/2012 12:00 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: There is plenty of documentation at the IEEE web site in the UFFC society's section. EerNisse gave a paper at the Frequency Control Symposium on it at the time. Kusters followed up a year later with experimental data. I am not aware of any controversy about these two guys being the inventors, and I have attended many FCS's. I don't know how you prove to the Wiki police that there is no paper predating EerNisse's paper. Maybe there is a patent on it. UFFC has some excellent resources on the web which does not require you to be a member to use: http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching.asp Kusters died this March.. in his in memoriam thing, they mention this 1981 Ultransonics Symposium John A. Kusters, The SC CUT CRYSTAL - AN OVERVIEW, pp 402-409 Has a bunch of references.. TS theory in 74, TTC experimental confirmation in 75, SC (stress compensated) theory in 75, actual experimental evidence in 78 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC Cut
See also: SC-Cut Quartz Oscillator Offers Improved Performance, page 20-29 www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1981-03.pdf including The SC Cut, a Brief Summary, page 22 Info on Jack Kusters, including a large list of his papers, here: http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/memoria.asp?name=kusters /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC-cut crystals
So, where do I find some SC-cut crystals to play around with? I don't need stellar performance. Think crude lab-hacks at this point. Any ideas? I got mine from Charles Wenzel. It think it failed his phase noise screening. Really nice guy, BTW. -- newell N5TNL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SC-cut crystals
Magnus Danielson wrote: Dear time-nuts, If I want to play around with AT-cut crystals, it is trivial to pick them up. I have bags of 20 MHz AT-cut crystals laying around. I do not feel comfortable like hacking away on the 10811s I have. So, where do I find some SC-cut crystals to play around with? I don't need stellar performance. Think crude lab-hacks at this point. Any ideas? Cheers, Magnus You could always dissect one of the cheap 5.55MHz OCXOs that you have to get a 10.000110MHz SC cut crystal. Note: The oscillator output is divided by 2 with a 74HC74A. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
