Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Hello Bert, That rationale sounds suspiciously familiar. The quest for an ever simpler VCO, that is. At the expense of some additional phase noise compared to VCXO+PLL, you could use an ADF4360-9. It is readily available at for example digikey, currently for $6.26. For my fpga based counter project I had pretty much the same thing as what (I think) you are doing. Simplify it wherever possible... So first use a PLL with integrated VCO, and see if the phase noise/jitter is not the limiting factor to your performance. If it turns out to be limiting, you can always do the more complicated VCXO + PLL + loop filter later. Anyway, that ADF4360-9 suggestion is working under the assumption that you are feeding it something like a 5 or 10 MHz reference signal. And it also assumes you don't mind QFN packages. You know, the little buggers with 0.5 mm pitch and no pins. regards, Fred Bert Kehren wrote: As part of the D/M project the counter uses a 100 MHz VCO with an AD 4001 PLL. To simplify further I would like to consider a very simple VCXO, easily available components, no tuning, any ideas out there. For once phase noise is of no concern. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
A circuit design? Look for 96MHz variants. Many out there. Example: http://www.qsl.net/dk1ag/96mhz_e.pdf - Henry -- ehydra.dyndns.info ewkeh...@aol.com schrieb: As part of the D/M project the counter uses a 100 MHz VCO with an AD 4001 PLL. To simplify further I would like to consider a very simple VCXO, easily available components, no tuning, any ideas out there. For once phase noise is of no concern. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Thanks for the info Fred The problem is the package. Looking at the Cirrus Logic CS 2300-CP and use a bubbler. Since I start out with 5 or 10 MHz there must be something out there that can be soldered. In a message dated 2/25/2011 7:17:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tijddin...@yahoo.com writes: Hello Bert, That rationale sounds suspiciously familiar. The quest for an ever simpler VCO, that is. At the expense of some additional phase noise compared to VCXO+PLL, you could use an ADF4360-9. It is readily available at for example digikey, currently for $6.26. For my fpga based counter project I had pretty much the same thing as what (I think) you are doing. Simplify it wherever possible... So first use a PLL with integrated VCO, and see if the phase noise/jitter is not the limiting factor to your performance. If it turns out to be limiting, you can always do the more complicated VCXO + PLL + loop filter later. Anyway, that ADF4360-9 suggestion is working under the assumption that you are feeding it something like a 5 or 10 MHz reference signal. And it also assumes you don't mind QFN packages. You know, the little buggers with 0.5 mm pitch and no pins. regards, Fred Bert Kehren wrote: As part of the D/M project the counter uses a 100 MHz VCO with an AD 4001 PLL. To simplify further I would like to consider a very simple VCXO, easily available components, no tuning, any ideas out there. For once phase noise is of no concern. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Well, I know Geraldo Lino de Campos on this list is using an ICS670-03 for this purpose. For me personally that part is too jittery by about a decade, but for your purpose it might just be the right compromise. Certainly has a friendlier package. datasheet: http://www.idt.com/products/getDoc.cfm?docID=18461996 Slight detour about soldering QFN's for prototyping. It is not /that/ bad. I will admit that when given the choice between QFNs and TSOPs I will pick the latter, but QFNs are do-able. All it takes is patience and a Can-Do attitude. Well, mainly patience really. ;) You can do those QFNs for example dead bug style on a solid copperclad ground plane. The trick then is to use aluminum foil to cover the pads you already soldered, and fluxfluxflux. You can put the decoupling caps real close in a sort of stonehenge around it. Like I said, requires a bit of patience, but it's fun when it actually works, plus you get better at it pretty fast. :) regards, Fred Bert Kehren wrote: Thanks for the info Fred The problem is the package. Looking at the Cirrus Logic CS 2300-CP and use a bubbler. Since I start out with 5 or 10 MHz there must be something out there that can be soldered. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Bert, first of all I'm really happy you're digging into this -- it's been on my list of projects for someday for a long time! One thing working in your favor is that the actual BFO frequency is way down at audio; the BFO crystals at around 2 MHz are divided by 1000 before hitting the mixer. So that gives you 40dB of help on the phase noise, as well as reducing any frequency offset that DDS step size might impose. John Tijd Dingen said the following on 02/25/2011 08:02 AM: Well, I know Geraldo Lino de Campos on this list is using an ICS670-03 for this purpose. For me personally that part is too jittery by about a decade, but for your purpose it might just be the right compromise. Certainly has a friendlier package. datasheet: http://www.idt.com/products/getDoc.cfm?docID=18461996 Slight detour about soldering QFN's for prototyping. It is not /that/ bad. I will admit that when given the choice between QFNs and TSOPs I will pick the latter, but QFNs are do-able. All it takes is patience and a Can-Do attitude. Well, mainly patience really. ;) You can do those QFNs for example dead bug style on a solid copperclad ground plane. The trick then is to use aluminum foil to cover the pads you already soldered, and fluxfluxflux. You can put the decoupling caps real close in a sort of stonehenge around it. Like I said, requires a bit of patience, but it's fun when it actually works, plus you get better at it pretty fast. :) regards, Fred Bert Kehren wrote: Thanks for the info Fred The problem is the package. Looking at the Cirrus Logic CS 2300-CP and use a bubbler. Since I start out with 5 or 10 MHz there must be something out there that can be soldered. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
On 2/25/11 3:05 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: As part of the D/M project the counter uses a 100 MHz VCO with an AD 4001 PLL. To simplify further I would like to consider a very simple VCXO, easily available components, no tuning, any ideas out there. For once phase noise is of no concern. Bert Kehren no tuning, but you *do* need some adjustment range, right (it needs a voltage control port?) what about one of the TCXOs out there that has the resistor trim for frequency? Just randomly.. A Vectron TX400 has a +/-12 ppm tuning range on the EFC input.. that's about 1200 Hz... http://www.vectron.com/products/tcxo/tx-400.pdf Digikey shows a whole bunch of Crystek VCOs for around $20-30 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Thanks for the input, do not forget the total system cost has to be $200, the latest version has a simple VCO but I would like to eliminate component selection, may stay with the present design, but the Cirrus CS 2300 followed by a bubbler may be the answer. Maybe there is something like the 2300 out there that goes to 100 MHz in a package that normal time-nuts (if there is such a thing) can solder. Bert In a message dated 2/25/2011 9:33:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jim...@earthlink.net writes: On 2/25/11 3:05 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: As part of the D/M project the counter uses a 100 MHz VCO with an AD 4001 PLL. To simplify further I would like to consider a very simple VCXO, easily available components, no tuning, any ideas out there. For once phase noise is of no concern. Bert Kehren no tuning, but you *do* need some adjustment range, right (it needs a voltage control port?) what about one of the TCXOs out there that has the resistor trim for frequency? Just randomly.. A Vectron TX400 has a +/-12 ppm tuning range on the EFC input.. that's about 1200 Hz... http://www.vectron.com/products/tcxo/tx-400.pdf Digikey shows a whole bunch of Crystek VCOs for around $20-30 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
I need to multiply by 10 and 20, 670-2 can not multiply by 20.Thanks. Bert In a message dated 2/25/2011 8:03:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tijddin...@yahoo.com writes: Well, I know Geraldo Lino de Campos on this list is using an ICS670-03 for this purpose. For me personally that part is too jittery by about a decade, but for your purpose it might just be the right compromise. Certainly has a friendlier package. datasheet: http://www.idt.com/products/getDoc.cfm?docID=18461996 Slight detour about soldering QFN's for prototyping. It is not /that/ bad. I will admit that when given the choice between QFNs and TSOPs I will pick the latter, but QFNs are do-able. All it takes is patience and a Can-Do attitude. Well, mainly patience really. ;) You can do those QFNs for example dead bug style on a solid copperclad ground plane. The trick then is to use aluminum foil to cover the pads you already soldered, and fluxfluxflux. You can put the decoupling caps real close in a sort of stonehenge around it. Like I said, requires a bit of patience, but it's fun when it actually works, plus you get better at it pretty fast. :) regards, Fred Bert Kehren wrote: Thanks for the info Fred The problem is the package. Looking at the Cirrus Logic CS 2300-CP and use a bubbler. Since I start out with 5 or 10 MHz there must be something out there that can be soldered. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
assumes you don't mind QFN packages. You know, the little buggers with 0.5 mm pitch and no pins. Have you seen SchmartBoards I think with one of those you could solder QFM with eyes closed, literally. Hard to describe how they work but the board is milled so the chip fits in sort of like in a socket then you heat the trace.A local store Fry's caries them now. Expensive at $12 each but you only need one More info including video of the process here http://www.schmartboard.com/ -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Hello Chris, No I didn't know SchmartBoards, thanks for the tip. Although maybe I am missing something... I just checked their site, and watched the videos, but I couldn't find anything I'd spend $12 on. When you say that it is expensive at $12 each, but you need only one, do you mean that as you only need to buy one gizmo once and you can reuse it to solder multiple different QFNs for several of you prototypes? If that, then I missed it on their site. Link please? If you mean you only need 1 QFN chip for this particular project, so spending $12 on an adapter board that you can use precisely once is not that expensive, then never mind. Then I will keep doing my current style prototyping style by hand, and spend the $12 on beer to soothe my nerves after the soldering. ;) Or spend $24 on having several PCBs manufactured that have more than just 2 QFN's on them. If you have a ready made pcb with an actual soldermask then QFN's are pretty easy. The challenge is for when you don't have a pcb with soldermask but still want to use that nifty QFN gizmo in your current want to try it NOW prototype. I hope I missed something, because an easy way to prototype QFN's that does not involve spending a fortune on adapter boards would be welcome. regards, Fred Chris Albertson wrote: Have you seen SchmartBoards I think with one of those you could solder QFM with eyes closed, literally. Hard to describe how they work but the board is milled so the chip fits in sort of like in a socket then you heat the trace. A local store Fry's caries them now. Expensive at $12 each but you only need one More info including video of the process here http://www.schmartboard.com/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
English and fingers are not perfect and I did not check before I send it sorry about that Bert Kehren In a message dated 2/25/2011 10:50:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, tijddin...@yahoo.com writes: Pardon my ignorance, but what is a bubbler? Is that time-nut speak for a frequency doubler of some sort? Guessing at a doubler since you mention needing a 100 MHz output, and the CS2300 only has a 6-75 MHz output range. Just thinking aloud here... IF (big if ;) you are considering doubling, you might just as well use the ICS670-03. Add a flip-flop between the FBCLK and FBIN to serve as an external divide-by-two. Then you can use the x5 and x10 settings to give you an effective division factor of 10 and 20 respectively. Which in turn gives you 100 MHz output for that 5 Mhz or 10 MHz input. regards, Fred Bert Kehren wrote: I need to multiply by 10 and 20, 670-2 can not multiply by 20. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Tijd Dingen tijddin...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Chris, No I didn't know SchmartBoards, thanks for the tip. Although maybe I am missing something... I just checked their site, and watched the videos, but I couldn't find anything I'd spend $12 on. When you say that it is expensive at $12 each, but you need only one, do you mean that as you only need to buy one gizmo once and you can reuse it to solder multiple different QFNs for several of you prototypes? No I meant one per project or one per chip If you can solder these by hand to a PCB you don't need this. SchmartBoards are for people who can't. the little boards are just breakout boards. You solder the chip to the SchmartBoard and then each lead goes to a larger through hole that is easier to use. Basically it turns a QFN chip in to a part with .1 lead pitch. Their innovation was to use a router to mill out the PCB so the chip self-aligns and can't slide off the pads, so like I said you can solder it with eyes closed. The traces going to the pads are in little trenches with fiber/epoxy walls between so you can't make a solder bridge The traces on the PCB are actually milled out trenches that are filled with solder. You place the chip in the board then place the solder iron some distance from the chip and the solder in the trench melts. These are aimed at someone who wants to prototype with SMT components Maybe you don't need this is you can hand solder QFN but hand soldering BGA is hard and they have these for BGA too. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Boy even though they are $12 for larger packages I would need them. It is so easy to create solder bridges. I can get away with direct connections to 14 pin or less and honestly have to say about 10. It seems crazy because the micro as an example might be $5. But thats the reality. regards Paul On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Tijd Dingen tijddin...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Chris, No I didn't know SchmartBoards, thanks for the tip. Although maybe I am missing something... I just checked their site, and watched the videos, but I couldn't find anything I'd spend $12 on. When you say that it is expensive at $12 each, but you need only one, do you mean that as you only need to buy one gizmo once and you can reuse it to solder multiple different QFNs for several of you prototypes? No I meant one per project or one per chip If you can solder these by hand to a PCB you don't need this. SchmartBoards are for people who can't. the little boards are just breakout boards. You solder the chip to the SchmartBoard and then each lead goes to a larger through hole that is easier to use. Basically it turns a QFN chip in to a part with .1 lead pitch. Their innovation was to use a router to mill out the PCB so the chip self-aligns and can't slide off the pads, so like I said you can solder it with eyes closed. The traces going to the pads are in little trenches with fiber/epoxy walls between so you can't make a solder bridge The traces on the PCB are actually milled out trenches that are filled with solder. You place the chip in the board then place the solder iron some distance from the chip and the solder in the trench melts. These are aimed at someone who wants to prototype with SMT components Maybe you don't need this is you can hand solder QFN but hand soldering BGA is hard and they have these for BGA too. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Hm. Concerning the CS2x00. Is there a PC software available to program it via i2c? I mean without this IDT monster software. Any hint is welcome! - Henry ewkeh...@aol.com schrieb: Thanks for the info Fred The problem is the package. Looking at the Cirrus Logic CS 2300-CP and use a bubbler. Since I start out with 5 or 10 MHz there must be something out there that can be soldered. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
Heh, I could care less about typos. I just honestly didn't understand what you meant. The best matches I could come up with was bubble counter and doubler. And since a bubble counter made no sense in this context and a doubler did, I thought I'd go with that guess and run with it. So now with that out of the way, the reason I find this interesting is that there are probably more people on this list that need a fairly simple yet good enough quality 100+ MHz reference locked to a 5/10 MHz reference. In fact I know of a few already... Taking my case I'd like to end up with a GPSDO with 10 MHz output and distribute that to a number of other projects. One project being a counter for which I need a low jitter reference of anywhere between 100 MHz and 500 MHz, whichever frequency happens to coincide with the easiest design tradeoffs to realize. So for the low jitter version I would use the CVHD-950 VCXO series as per Said's advice in the 10MHz to 80MHz frequency multiplier suggestions thread, together with an ADF4002. And for the simpler design, with worse but still okay phase noise/jitter, I would use the ADF4360-9. And you, based on your requirements for your project, would maybe go for the Cirrus Logic CS2300-CP. And other people on this list would need something which is fairly similar to one variety or the other. It would be nice if we had a collection of simple solutions where we have schematics + gerbers, from which time-nuts members could pick the one they need for their project and not spend too much time re-inventing the wheel. Just spend the time to familiarize themselves with a particular well designed and known-to-work wheel that fits the needs for their project. Think sparkfun, but with a distinct time-nutty flavor. Anyways, sorry for going a wee bit off-topic... regards, Fred Bert Kehren wrote: English and fingers are not perfect and I did not check before I send it sorry about that. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
That price differential is definitely a big reason why I don't use that sort of adapter board. A $5 chip in a $12 adapter is just crazy. I could be spending that same money on trying out this or that nifty part... But like Chris pointed out, for BGA it would make sense. No way am I going to try hand soldering those. ;) - Original Message From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Fri, February 25, 2011 9:51:03 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help Boy even though they are $12 for larger packages I would need them. It is so easy to create solder bridges. I can get away with direct connections to 14 pin or less and honestly have to say about 10. It seems crazy because the micro as an example might be $5. But thats the reality. regards Paul On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Tijd Dingen tijddin...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello Chris, No I didn't know SchmartBoards, thanks for the tip. Although maybe I am missing something... I just checked their site, and watched the videos, but I couldn't find anything I'd spend $12 on. When you say that it is expensive at $12 each, but you need only one, do you mean that as you only need to buy one gizmo once and you can reuse it to solder multiple different QFNs for several of you prototypes? No I meant one per project or one per chip If you can solder these by hand to a PCB you don't need this. SchmartBoards are for people who can't. the little boards are just breakout boards. You solder the chip to the SchmartBoard and then each lead goes to a larger through hole that is easier to use. Basically it turns a QFN chip in to a part with .1 lead pitch. Their innovation was to use a router to mill out the PCB so the chip self-aligns and can't slide off the pads, so like I said you can solder it with eyes closed. The traces going to the pads are in little trenches with fiber/epoxy walls between so you can't make a solder bridge The traces on the PCB are actually milled out trenches that are filled with solder. You place the chip in the board then place the solder iron some distance from the chip and the solder in the trench melts. These are aimed at someone who wants to prototype with SMT components Maybe you don't need this is you can hand solder QFN but hand soldering BGA is hard and they have these for BGA too. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] VCXO help
That's a bit of an open question since it depends on many things. So I realize this may be a bit too generic, but hey you said any hints ;). Simple example that I know to work in linux, and the same principle should work in windows. 1 - make i2c interface with parallel port + couple of resistors 2 - bit-bang i2c protocol 3 - Write To The Registers You Need [tm] You only have to invest the time for 1 2 once, and then you can do the same trick for all other i2c ic's out there as well. What you could also do is grab an avr board (arduino du jour) with an avr on it that does spi, i2c and rs232. There's plenty that have these features. Write a small C program that accepts commands over rs232, and writes registers over i2c or spi. That way you only need to buy a cheap arduino and write a small program in C for the avr. Compile with sdcc... For me I'd use SPI, connect to a board I already have, and use a small perl script that I already have for this sort of thing, but that's no help to you. :P Other methods as well, it just depends on what you are comfortable with, and what you already have lying around... regards, Fred ehydra at arcor.de wrote: Hm. Concerning the CS2x00. Is there a PC software available to program it via i2c? I mean without this IDT monster software. Any hint is welcome! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
