Re: [time-nuts] 1PPS for the beginner

[Chris Caudle]

On Mon, August 13, 2018 9:16 pm, Chris Burford wrote:
> I have a (generic?) GPSDO which contains an Oscilloquartz STAR 4+ OCXO
> that I am using to steer a PRS10 RFS. I'm a little confused on where the
> 1PPS is coming from with respect to the GPSDO.

A GPS disciplined oscillator contains a GPS receiver which outputs 1PPS
based on receiving the GPS signals and calculating the position  + time
equation. That PPS signal is noisy in time, it jitters around relative to
the ideal 1 second period.  The GPSDO implements a long time constant PLL
to synchronize the output of the OCXO to the long term average frequency
and phase of the GPS PPS, so what you see externally is 10MHz directly
from the OCXO, 1 Hz (PPS) which is divided down from the 10MHz OCXO, and
those are controlled by a PLL so that long term the phase of the PPS
divided down from the OCXO follows the PPS calculated by the GPS receiver,
but with lower jitter.

-- 
Chris Caudle



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[time-nuts] 1PPS for the beginner

[Chris Burford]

Hello members,

At the risk of personal embarrassment and perhaps a chuckle, or two, I'm going 
to ask the following questions about 1PPS.

I have a (generic?) GPSDO which contains an Oscilloquartz STAR 4+ OCXO that I 
am using to steer a PRS10 RFS. I'm a little confused on where the 1PPS is 
coming from with respect to the GPSDO. Is the 1PPS in the RF signal from the 
satellite data stream or does it originate from the OCXO oscillation?

This I'm sure is quite trivial for most of the members here but I am trying to 
understand certain concepts, processes and terminology along the way. I look 
forward to anyone who cares to share their comments.

Thanks for assistance.

Chris Burford 

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Re: [time-nuts] EFOS2 Maser acting up :(

[Dana Whitlow]

Corby,

What's the H flow rate control doing when the IF level goes down, or
increases, depending?

Prior to retirement, I was the "Keeper of The Clock" at my job, which
entailed riding herd on
our Symmetricom H-Maser (among other things).  At one point about five
years ago, the
IF amplitude began oscillating up and down a few percent, with a period of
around 11 days.
This behavior commenced rather abruptly.  Nothing that was visibly
disruptive to the usefulness
of the system, but definitely worrisome.  The folks at Symmetricom had no
idea what might be
going on, and all they could suggest was "watchful waiting".  I was still
waiting watchfully
when I retired some four years later.  This maser regulates the IF
amplitude via a feedback
loop which adjusts the H flow rate by adjusting power to a heater on a Pd
disk "filter" in the
H path.  I suspect that something has gone wrong in that feedback loop,
such as a capacitor
failure spoiling the loop dynamics, but could not justify shutting down the
system while I
troubleshot the problem.  So I just kept management apprised of the
situation, as well as the
guy who replaced me when I retired.

But if you have a log of internal goings on, as I did, it might well be
informative to study how
other internal parameters varied when your IF amplitude hiccups occurred.

Dana


On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> Corby,
>
> Nice detective work. Keep us posted. I had a case some years ago where my
> IF level was sputtering around. It turned out to be the dissociator. It was
> a pretty easy fix after a fax / email or two from Russia.
>
> If you suspect the L.O. you can always free-run it for a week and see if
> similar symptoms occur. That would eliminate 99% of the complexity of the
> maser as the source of the problem.
>
> /tvb
>
> - Original Message -
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 1:07 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] EFOS2 Maser acting up :(
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > The EFOS2 Maser is having an "issue", the I.F.level is intermittently
> > fluctuating and sometimes drops all the way to zero. I've always wanted
> > to see the "raw" output from the cavity so now was my chance! Installed
> > two SMA cables  bringing the output of the circulator and the input to
> > the LNA out to where I can get at them. Managed to catch it at zero and
> > hooked a Spec-A to the output of the circulator. Hooray, The Maser cavity
> > output is good, so the problem lies downstream. Installed a directional
> > coupler between the two lines looking back into the LNA. Can see a
> > healthy 1440 Mhz L.O. leakage and logged a reference level. Now just
> > waiting for it to drop again and see if it's the L.O. If not I'll have to
> > dive in again and move my monitor SMAs to look at the 19.6...Mhz I.F.
> > signal. Pix shows the cavity signal on the spec-A.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Corby
>
>
> 
> 
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Scott McGrath]

WRT my sextant comment,   How many pilots or sailors can navigate by ‘shooting 
the sun/stars’.  They have become dependent on precision navigation systems.   

Which of course feeds the thinking by empty suits why do we need lighthouses, 
buoys, VOR’s and airway beacons because we have the ‘god box’ onboard.   Its 
old fashioned and uncool.

 Interestingly enough there have been enough GPS ‘outages’ that the USNO is 
once again requiring proficiency in celestial navigation in order to graduate 
food for thought there.

I was initially speaking about loss of GPS due to natural causes.   In times of 
international tension attacking a country by denying its ONLY source of 
precision time transfer would be a particularly effective tactic and you dont 
even have to damage the satellites themselves.   Just jam L1

As to relying on systems operated by one’s political adversaries that does not 
seem to be a wise option.

So once again for US’ians time to pick up the phone and put pen to paper and 
state while the US budget is bloated.   This particular item NEEDS to stay.   
Find a vanity construction project and make it disappear instead.   And point 
out the technical reasons it needs to stay.


Scott


On Aug 12, 2018, at 4:49 PM, Joe Dempster  wrote:

I hope that defunding is just a ploy and things will remain on the air.  I
am concerned this is starting to sound like 2010 when DHS/USCG took eLoran
off the air in the states.  This was one of the few things that totally
dismayed me about the Obama administration.

> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM djl  wrote:
> 
> Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most
> valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc.
> This is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
> Don
> 
> 
>> On 2018-08-12 12:20, paul swed wrote:
>> Like all of you I have a few wwvb clocks that work pretty well here in
>> Boston.
>> Certainly have written enough wwvb stuff and created various wwvb
>> projects
>> that I will have to get back into it again.
>> I did look at the cron-verter. Have to say it has a lot of nice
>> features.
>> Unfortunately it hasn't been available for a year or so. (Getting lazy)
>> The good news is the AM modulation of wwb is very easy to create.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Dana Whitlow 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something
>>> like
>>> "shutting down
>>> the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include
>>> the
>>> whole
>>> enchilada.
>>> 
>>> For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go
>>> to
>>> battery-
>>> backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the
>>> expectation
>>> is to
>>> run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having
>>> to
>>> take my watch
>>> off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
>>> shutdown comes
>>> to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or
>>> at
>>> least
>>> plans for building one.
>>> 
>>> Dana
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
 With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the
> USA
 down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals,
> and
 so on, is great stuff.
On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
>>> kb...@n1k.org>
 wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s
> “atomic
 clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
 It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
 wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
 
 Bob
 
> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
 generally in groups here:
>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
 request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
 dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in
> Colorado
 and Hawaii"
> 
> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] EFOS2 Maser acting up :(

[Tom Van Baak]

Corby,

Nice detective work. Keep us posted. I had a case some years ago where my IF 
level was sputtering around. It turned out to be the dissociator. It was a 
pretty easy fix after a fax / email or two from Russia.

If you suspect the L.O. you can always free-run it for a week and see if 
similar symptoms occur. That would eliminate 99% of the complexity of the maser 
as the source of the problem.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 1:07 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] EFOS2 Maser acting up :(


> Hi,
> 
> The EFOS2 Maser is having an "issue", the I.F.level is intermittently
> fluctuating and sometimes drops all the way to zero. I've always wanted
> to see the "raw" output from the cavity so now was my chance! Installed
> two SMA cables  bringing the output of the circulator and the input to
> the LNA out to where I can get at them. Managed to catch it at zero and
> hooked a Spec-A to the output of the circulator. Hooray, The Maser cavity
> output is good, so the problem lies downstream. Installed a directional
> coupler between the two lines looking back into the LNA. Can see a
> healthy 1440 Mhz L.O. leakage and logged a reference level. Now just
> waiting for it to drop again and see if it's the L.O. If not I'll have to
> dive in again and move my monitor SMAs to look at the 19.6...Mhz I.F.
> signal. Pix shows the cavity signal on the spec-A.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Corby





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[time-nuts] solar flares and time references Re: NIST

[jimlux]

On 8/13/18 6:52 AM, Peter Laws wrote:



As for solar flares taking out the various GNSSs ... wouldn't a solar
flare only take out the vehicles that were on the "sunny" side of the
Earth?  Wouldn't the (approximately) half of the SVs that are in the
Earth's shadow be unaffected?  Serious technical question - I have no
idea.



Actually, it's the particles associated with the solar flare that cause 
the problem, and they move substantially slower than the speed of light 
(it takes hours to days), and they spread out a lot in time.


There's a plot at the wikipedia page on flares

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare#/media/File:ExtremeEvent_20120304-00h_20120317-24h.jpg

You can see the proton flux is spread out over many hours


 (I'm project manager for constellation of satellites we're going to 
fly to do radio interferometry imaging of the sun at HF for Coronal Mass 
Ejections.. time tags are important to us)


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Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii

[Scott McGrath]

This has ‘empty suit’ written all over it ,’move it to the $BUZZWORD 

Yes the LORAN shutdown was more impactful from a time transfer PoV but the NIST 
transmitters provide a crude backup and valuable scientific data with a long 
baseline

In NH we’ve had an unusually severe summer WRT weather events I normally have 
FIOS based 1gb internet connection which has now been down for 6 weeks.   It 
might be restored this week because new poles have been installed.

So Wife still has TV only because I maintained our satellite/Terrestrial system 
in readiness.

As for internet well I’m still running on a couple of Cradlepoint LTE gateways 
with yagi’s pointing at nearest tower and available bandwidth ranges from 100kb 
to 5mb with wild swings.

Putting all ones technical eggs in one basket is a bad idea from an operational 
and technical point of view.

What happens if a solar storm makes civillian GPS unavailable,   Hmm. Cell 
networks start going down as the GPSDO’s start drifting,  Kerberos 
authenticators begin to fail as wide area networks depending on GPS derived 
timing begin to drift (servers have CHEAP oscillators).

The rush to GPS based network timing is not a good idea,   We should be adding 
more wide area frequency sources not taking them away.

The NIST transmitters are very useful in calculating propagation and some sites 
have decades of data on this so its worth having them around for purely 
scientific reasons even though the technology of time and frequency transfer 
have moved forward.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Aug 12, 2018, at 9:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
 wrote:

I hope this does not happen.  I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
Also, from my days in the Merchant Marine until now, I for one will truly
miss this service if it is discontinued, and this isn't the first time it
has some up.

I also tell new Hams - if you can understand the message from WWV that
gives out the number in Colorado - your antenna should be in pretty good
shape for HF (and or VHF/UHF at least to verify
it can receive ok).  At least it's an easy rule of thumb and an easy check
for most.

73's,
John
AJ6BC



> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 6:46 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut the
> service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is kind
> of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on.
> Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there might be
> a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we typically
> see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee service. I
> think thats very very early.
> 
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes  wrote:
>> 
>> Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience.  Many
>> years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned
>> WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE,
>> blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA
> however)
>> including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a
>> splashdown.
>> 
>> The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't
>> give tours.  I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he
> said,
>> "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is
>> unlocked.  If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but
>> please stay in your car."  So we did.
>> 
>> Wes
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Group,
>>> 
>>> This subject needs some additional detail.  I found an article with
>>> comments at
>>> 
>>> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-
>>> request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[jimlux]

On 8/13/18 6:10 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Ok, this is Time Nuts. We probably have a pretty good sample of those who use 
this and that as a source of time.
We also are reasonably conscious about what we are doing. NIST’s claimed reason 
for running WWV (and WWVH) is to
distribute accurate time and frequency.

Would / does anybody on the list actually use WWV as their *primary* source of 
accurate time or accurate frequency?



I don't use WWV (or WWVH) as a source of time/frequency per-se - what I 
use it for is as a beacon at a known power, frequency, and antenna 
pattern, with (presumably) very good close in phase noise.


The ionosphere has a coherence time of a few seconds, so ADEV of the 
source at tau of 10 sec or longer isn't a huge thing for me.  But that 1 
Hz/1 sec time frame is of real interest.


As the receiver flies over, we get nice soundings "through" the 
ionosphere with good performance in the short term.


The usual ionosondes don't have anywhere near the same carrier purity, 
and, because they sweep, you have to have good time synchronization of 
your super het receiver to make sure you can tune the signal.


With WWV, I can set my center frequency to, say, 10.005 MHz, record 25 
kHz BW for several minutes as I fly over and make my measurements.  The 
"phase noise and ADEV" of my receiver position is very small - zipping 
along 500 km at the top of the ionosphere, there's not a lot of bumps in 
the road, so it's easy to model the position.


Not for my current spacecraft, but for a future one (SunRISE), we'll be 
measuring (post processed) spacecraft position and time to a few ns. 
The current one isn't that good - but for this one, we're interested in 
the lumps and bumps of the ionosphere, and that's a "over time spans of 
<3 seconds" kind of measurement.



That said, if WWV were to turn off tomorrow, I could probably build a 
ground beacon with adequate performance to do my science. I don't need 
kilowatts of radiated power - it's just convenient that WWV exists and 
someone else does it. And in reality, I'd rather have an antenna which 
radiates more "up" than "out" - WWV and WWVH are vertical dipoles - good 
for skywave propagation, not so hot for vertical sounding.






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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Mark Spencer]

I'll just add:

I got into time nuts after I acquired a GPSDO for checking the frequency 
accuracy of my amateur radios.  I realized I needed a GPSDO when I couldn't 
figure out if I was seeing drift in my radios frequency standards or Doppler 
shift from WWV transmissions while using WWV as a frequency reference.

To recap a prior post I do use WWV fairly often as a time source (mostly when I 
am in "the field") and I have occasionally used WWV as a frequency standard 
(not withstanding my concerns about Doppler shift.)   All of this is for non 
commercial / hobby use. 



Mark Spencer

Aligned Solutions Co.
m...@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 2:10 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Ok, this is Time Nuts. We probably have a pretty good sample of those who use 
> this and that as a source of time.
> We also are reasonably conscious about what we are doing. NIST’s claimed 
> reason for running WWV (and WWVH) is to
> distribute accurate time and frequency.
> 
> Would / does anybody on the list actually use WWV as their *primary* source 
> of accurate time or accurate frequency?
> 
> Ok, so how about as a secondary source of time?
> 
> Now show of hands …. third tier backup? 
> 
> I’ll place my votes first …. rarely as a third tier backup. Why? It’s just 
> not good enough any more compared to the other 
> things I have easily available. 
> 
> No, I”m not debating how badly we need third or eight tier backups. The 
> question is purely - what is it actually used for?
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Aug 13, 2018, at 8:39 AM, jimlux  wrote:
>> 
>> On 8/12/18 8:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick wrote:
>>> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the 
>>> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
>> 
>> 
>> WWV/WWVH also provides HF propagation forecasts, severe weather warnings for 
>> mariners, etc., as well as being a propagation beacon.
>> 
>> I don't think HF communications is completely going away - it's unique in 
>> not requiring any infrastructure to achieve world-wide communications other 
>> than the two endpoints of the link.
>> 
>> It's probably a smaller population than radio amateurs, but there are people 
>> who work with HF propagation on a day to day basis. For example, if 
>> Rocketlabs ever gets their act together and launches a couple more rockets, 
>> I'll have a spacecraft in LEO for which I intend to use WWV and WWVH as 
>> calibration sources.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii

[ew via time-nuts]

I used to live in Miami and now 80 miles north in homes made of steel  
reinforced concrete blocks. Junghans considered Miami worse case in the US and 
came there before introduction of their wrist watch with antenna in the arm 
band.. The Junghans clocks have worked flawless since then with multiple walls 
between WWVB and any location in my home. Same goes for a no name wall clock I 
got three years ago.
Watches the leather armbands deteriorated over time.
An external ferite rod worked great for frequency along a Tracor Omega receiver 
for 42 years.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 8/13/2018 8:08:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
tsho...@gmail.com writes:

 
 While consumer WWVB clocks are widespread today, almost all (or all) 
professional clock displays have shifted to NTP over copper or over sometimes 
WIFI in the past decade.

WWVB or WWV, without an external antenna, was never a good choice for a clock 
in a steel building to begin with. 30 years ago you would put an HF or GOES 
antenna on the roof. As the paperwork for putting up an antenna has multiplied 
exponentially and Ethernet has become completely and totally ubiquitous in 
commercial buildings, it becomes a no brainer to choose a POE NTP clock display.

While NTP works super well for locations with 120VAC or POE power, it is not so 
obvious for a wallclock that is traditionally powered by a battery that only 
has to be changed every few years. For battery powered wallclocks in wood 
buiildings WWVB is still a great solution maybe even the only solution. But I 
could imagine a consumer product that just turned on its WIFI for a minute each 
day to resync and was battery powered.

Tim N3QE

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>> I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
>> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
>> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
> 
> W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts
> on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument.
> 
> OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic"
> clocks because of NTP is also weak. The present WWVB solution
> is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users
> don't need more accuracy.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Ok, this is Time Nuts. We probably have a pretty good sample of those who use 
this and that as a source of time.
We also are reasonably conscious about what we are doing. NIST’s claimed reason 
for running WWV (and WWVH) is to
distribute accurate time and frequency.

Would / does anybody on the list actually use WWV as their *primary* source of 
accurate time or accurate frequency?

Ok, so how about as a secondary source of time?

Now show of hands …. third tier backup? 

I’ll place my votes first …. rarely as a third tier backup. Why? It’s just not 
good enough any more compared to the other 
things I have easily available. 

No, I”m not debating how badly we need third or eight tier backups. The 
question is purely - what is it actually used for?

Bob

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 8:39 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 8/12/18 8:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick wrote:
>> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the 
>> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
> 
> 
> WWV/WWVH also provides HF propagation forecasts, severe weather warnings for 
> mariners, etc., as well as being a propagation beacon.
> 
> I don't think HF communications is completely going away - it's unique in not 
> requiring any infrastructure to achieve world-wide communications other than 
> the two endpoints of the link.
> 
> It's probably a smaller population than radio amateurs, but there are people 
> who work with HF propagation on a day to day basis. For example, if 
> Rocketlabs ever gets their act together and launches a couple more rockets, 
> I'll have a spacecraft in LEO for which I intend to use WWV and WWVH as 
> calibration sources.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

[jimlux]

On 8/12/18 6:36 PM, David I. Emery wrote:

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 07:48:52PM -0400, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Well???. there???s also the solar flare that vaporizes the planet earth :)

A flare big enough to take out all the sat systems would disrupt a lot more 
than just navigation.




But It is much more likely that orbits would be less accurately
known for a while due to atmospheric heating and increased drag and
maybe also due to disturbances in satellite orientation and power and
thermal status during the event that could both change drag and perhaps
even induce slight impulses if gas jets or similar means were required
to recover the bird and make it stable again.   And the power and
thermal perturbations in emergency mode shutdown configurations might
well impact the on board clock performance and accuracy (even maybe just
from the extra radiation as the magnetopause moved inside the satellite
orbits in an extreme event).


GPS is up high enough that aerodrag isn't really a problem - if you're 
above 1500km, it's negligible, and they're up at 20,000km.
Solar wind pressure will push them around a bit, but not much.  I would 
think that if you did nothing, they'll be there for a very, very long time.


Their orbit is actually a quite high radiation zone (traversing the 
radiation belts as they pass through the polar region), compared to GEO.


So the GPS satellites are pretty robust to this kind of thing.





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Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii

[jimlux]

On 8/12/18 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:



Group,

This subject needs some additional detail.  I found an article with comments at

https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/

It is not clear whether WWVB will still be available for all of our cheap 
"atomic" clocks.

One comment says that White House budgets are usually ignored in congress.


Not exactly.. I've been involved in very low level tiers of budget 
making - technically known as the PPBE (Planning, programming, 
budgeting, and execution) process.


What happens is that about 2 years ahead of time (i.e. right now, you'd 
be working on PPBE for 2020) you flow your approximate budget requests 
up your chain and there's some preliminary churning and allocation at 
higher levels based on conversations with their higher levels, in terms 
of agency priorities, strategic goals, ongoing programs, etc. 
Ultimately, it's the White House that decides what "the mark" will be at 
some level of detail.  That gets flowed back down do all the 
organizations and divided and subdivided, following the "guidance" from 
above and providing guidance to those below. This typically happens 
around November/December  You prepare your plans and budget based on 
that (over the holidays, often) to turn in a draft in January/February 
(now in 2019), which gets rolled up with other folks plans and budgets, 
and reviewed in the March/April time frame, which then gets rolled up, 
and becomes part of the President's Request.  In a perfect world, 
Congress then funds all or part of the request, perhaps adding some 
specific direction (famously: thou shalt build a magnificent large 
rocket using Shuttle Derived components), which is never identical to 
the request - the agency then flows the actual approval back down, 
adjusting the requests you made earlier, and Gods willing and the river 
don't rise, at the beginning of the Fiscal Year (October 1st) you get 
your first increment of funding and your budget for the coming year 
(FY20 in this example).


Some budgets are "competed" - i.e. the agency says "we want to fund a 
series of missions to understand stellar debris for not to exceed $150M, 
each, with a program cost of $400M, beginning in 2021 and launching in 
2025" - The President sends that request to Congress, they approve it, 
the agency issues a RFP (or Announcement of Opportunity - AO), people 
write proposals, they get evaluated, and the selected project(s)'s 
proposal(s) become part of a program budget, etc.


A huge, huge wrench in the works is that often Congress can get their 
job done and actually pass the required budget bills.  What hopefully 
happens is that they pass a "continuing resolution" (CR) which basically 
funds the agency at the same level as the previous year, and which has 
the requirement that no program can terminate nor start.


So, if your $150M mission is part of a "new start", and Congress does 
the CR thing, your mission funding won't materialize on schedule.  Or, 
if you were planning on decommissioning something (so that you could use 
the funding on something else) - on a CR, you can't do that. When the 
thing is a "big thing" (say, like Space Shuttle, with $B/year budgets) 
that has quite a ripple effect.


Congress also gets involved if a program runs seriously over budget - 
they have to re-authorize - or for building and demolishing permanent 
structures.  The latter is why government agencies have been finding 
rental space if they can.





Another says that it is NIST that cut WWV and WWVH, not the White House.

Can anyone clarify the situation?

Bill Hawkins
Sent from my retirement home in MN

Change causes confusion until new methods are learned, and a deep sense of loss 
when something familiar goes away.


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[time-nuts] About the recent NIST thread(s)

[Tom Van Baak]

What a weekend. Just a reminder -- our "low volume, high SNR" time-nuts list 
works best when postings are technical and well-informed. Quite a few of the 
many NIST-related postings since Friday fell below that threshold.

Undoubtedly an accurate story will come out soon. If you know something for 
sure, or have any positive contribution, by all means share. If you just want 
to complain or blame, spread fear or start rumors, please don't post.

In the event that some useful NIST T service is actually on the chopping 
block, we time nuts could be a resource to help influence budget gladiators or 
to explain to the public just what those magic services are and why they 
were/are still important. I'd rather list members use their time to compose 
accurate, informative, and appealing testimonials about how well NIST serves 
the community -- or how NIST could better serve the community in the future -- 
than for members to use this mailing list to cry Henny Penny [1].

Please do your part to keep time-nuts a few dB better than random blog comments 
and social media chatter [2].

Also, remember that time-nuts is currently in unmoderated mode [3], so be 
careful before you hit send.

Thanks,
/tvb
http://leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm


[1] aka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Little

[2] e.g.,

https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/2019-budget-proposes-shutting-down-wwv-wwvh.623786/

https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/96fy9m/budget_proposal_to_shut_down_wwv_wwvh_time/

https://www.reddit.com/r/shortwave/comments/96dyyr/nist_fy2019_budget_includes_request_to_shutdown/

[3] 
http://lists.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/2018-May/092539.html



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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[paul swed]

Hello to the group. The Chronverter is now available again. US $37.
Its from unusual electronics as was mentioned earlier in the thread.
No matter how 2019 actually goes its a good way to keep the wwvb clocks
going.
Saves me from having to create the same thing.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 8:39 AM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 8/12/18 8:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
>> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the
>> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
>>
>
>
> WWV/WWVH also provides HF propagation forecasts, severe weather warnings
> for mariners, etc., as well as being a propagation beacon.
>
> I don't think HF communications is completely going away - it's unique in
> not requiring any infrastructure to achieve world-wide communications other
> than the two endpoints of the link.
>
> It's probably a smaller population than radio amateurs, but there are
> people who work with HF propagation on a day to day basis. For example, if
> Rocketlabs ever gets their act together and launches a couple more rockets,
> I'll have a spacecraft in LEO for which I intend to use WWV and WWVH as
> calibration sources.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[jimlux]

On 8/12/18 8:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick wrote:

I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the voters 
but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.



WWV/WWVH also provides HF propagation forecasts, severe weather warnings 
for mariners, etc., as well as being a propagation beacon.


I don't think HF communications is completely going away - it's unique 
in not requiring any infrastructure to achieve world-wide communications 
other than the two endpoints of the link.


It's probably a smaller population than radio amateurs, but there are 
people who work with HF propagation on a day to day basis. For example, 
if Rocketlabs ever gets their act together and launches a couple more 
rockets, I'll have a spacecraft in LEO for which I intend to use WWV and 
WWVH as calibration sources.






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Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii

[Tim Shoppa]

While consumer WWVB clocks are widespread today, almost all (or all) 
professional clock displays have shifted to NTP over copper or over sometimes 
WIFI in the past decade.

WWVB or WWV, without an external antenna, was never a good choice for a clock 
in a steel building to begin with. 30 years ago you would put an HF or GOES 
antenna on the roof. As the paperwork for putting up an antenna has multiplied 
exponentially and Ethernet has become completely and totally ubiquitous in 
commercial buildings, it becomes a no brainer to choose a POE NTP clock display.

While NTP works super well for locations with 120VAC or POE power, it is not so 
obvious for a wallclock that is traditionally powered by a battery that only 
has to be changed every few years. For battery powered wallclocks in wood 
buiildings WWVB is still a great solution maybe even the only solution. But I 
could imagine a consumer product that just turned on its WIFI for a minute each 
day to resync and was battery powered.

Tim N3QE

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:
>> I hope this does not happen.  I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
>> can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
>> 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
> 
> W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts
> on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument.
> 
> OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic"
> clocks because of NTP is also weak.  The present WWVB solution
> is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users
> don't need more accuracy.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi



> On Aug 13, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> 
> Note to all;
> 
> Be cautious about getting time of day from consumer GPS products.  All that
> I have encountered
> (so far) exhibit T.O.D. errors up to a few tenths of a second, and the
> error is not repeatable from
> session to session.  Some do have PPS outputs, which are typically claimed
> to provide usec
> level of accuracy, but most do not.

… but there *are* modules out there for not a lot of money that do indeed give
quite good PPS (and TOD) information. Picking out the good brands / models
from the junk is part of why you have lists like this one. 

> 
> I routinely use WWV to verify correct setting of my WWVB-synced watch and
> kitchen clock.  I have
> occasionally seen severe setting errors, which I attribute to attempts at
> syncing in the face of poor
> WWVB reception conditions.
> 
> My impression is that none of the time codes currently in use by broadcast
> NIST time signals
> contain forward error correction or even error detection features.  If this
> is wrong, please somebody
> correct me!
> 

I believe you will find that the “new” PSK modulation scheme on WWVB has at 
least some error detection built into it. 

> BTW, there are a fair number of Heathkit clocks in the wild which use WWV
> (as opposed to WWVB)

There aren’t a lot of those left running these days …..

Bob


> for syncing.  An old college-era housemate with whom I keep in touch owns
> and still uses at least
> one of them.
> 
> Dana
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 5:25 AM, Mark Spencer 
> wrote:
> 
>> I'm trying hard to think of routine users of WWV / WWVH other than amateur
>> radio operators, time nuts, and the occasional academic / scientific study
>> that uses the transmitters as a signal source.
>> 
>> Perhaps some boaters still use the time signals to set their chronometers,
>> but WWV /WWVH probably wouldn't be my first choice for that application if
>> I had access to GPS.
>> 
>> Perhaps some other users of the radio Spectrum occasionally use the
>> signals as a basic test signal ?
>> 
>> I use the time signals for my amateur radio hobby when I already have an
>> HF receiver and don't want to mess with using GPS as a time source.  I only
>> need accuracy within perhaps a third of a second so manually setting a
>> computer clock while listening to WWV works for me.
>> 
>> For my own interest I'd be curious in knowing of other routine uses of the
>> WWV / WWVH time signals.
>> 
>> 
>> Mark S
>> VE7AFZ
>> 
>> m...@alignedsolutions.com
>> 604 762 4099
>> 
>>> On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:08 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
>> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
>>> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
>> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
 
 On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
>> generally in groups here:
> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
>> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
>> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
>> and Hawaii"
 
 I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
 
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>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Dana Whitlow]

Note to all;

Be cautious about getting time of day from consumer GPS products.  All that
I have encountered
(so far) exhibit T.O.D. errors up to a few tenths of a second, and the
error is not repeatable from
session to session.  Some do have PPS outputs, which are typically claimed
to provide usec
level of accuracy, but most do not.

I routinely use WWV to verify correct setting of my WWVB-synced watch and
kitchen clock.  I have
 occasionally seen severe setting errors, which I attribute to attempts at
syncing in the face of poor
WWVB reception conditions.

My impression is that none of the time codes currently in use by broadcast
NIST time signals
contain forward error correction or even error detection features.  If this
is wrong, please somebody
correct me!

BTW, there are a fair number of Heathkit clocks in the wild which use WWV
(as opposed to WWVB)
for syncing.  An old college-era housemate with whom I keep in touch owns
and still uses at least
one of them.

Dana


On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 5:25 AM, Mark Spencer 
wrote:

> I'm trying hard to think of routine users of WWV / WWVH other than amateur
> radio operators, time nuts, and the occasional academic / scientific study
> that uses the transmitters as a signal source.
>
> Perhaps some boaters still use the time signals to set their chronometers,
> but WWV /WWVH probably wouldn't be my first choice for that application if
> I had access to GPS.
>
> Perhaps some other users of the radio Spectrum occasionally use the
> signals as a basic test signal ?
>
> I use the time signals for my amateur radio hobby when I already have an
> HF receiver and don't want to mess with using GPS as a time source.  I only
> need accuracy within perhaps a third of a second so manually setting a
> computer clock while listening to WWV works for me.
>
> For my own interest I'd be curious in knowing of other routine uses of the
> WWV / WWVH time signals.
>
>
> Mark S
> VE7AFZ
>
> m...@alignedsolutions.com
> 604 762 4099
>
> > On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:08 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> > It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
> >>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> generally in groups here:
> >>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> >>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
> and Hawaii"
> >>
> >> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> >>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Mark Spencer]

I'm trying hard to think of routine users of WWV / WWVH other than amateur 
radio operators, time nuts, and the occasional academic / scientific study that 
uses the transmitters as a signal source.   

Perhaps some boaters still use the time signals to set their chronometers, but 
WWV /WWVH probably wouldn't be my first choice for that application if I had 
access to GPS.

Perhaps some other users of the radio Spectrum occasionally use the signals as 
a basic test signal ?

I use the time signals for my amateur radio hobby when I already have an HF 
receiver and don't want to mess with using GPS as a time source.  I only need 
accuracy within perhaps a third of a second so manually setting a computer 
clock while listening to WWV works for me.  

For my own interest I'd be curious in knowing of other routine uses of the WWV 
/ WWVH time signals.  


Mark S
VE7AFZ

m...@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099

> On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:08 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic 
> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage wise) 
> would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
>> 
>> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described 
>>> generally in groups here:
>>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement dissemination, 
>>> including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii"
>> 
>> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Mike Cook]

> Le 13 août 2018 à 11:09, Dana Whitlow  a écrit :
> 
> Craig,
> 
> The original main reason for WWVB had nothing to do with syncing our
> "atomic"
> wristwatches and clocks.  It was for keeping local frequency standards
> honest, for
> which continuous coverage throughout the day and night was desirable (if not
> always achievable).  But for that application, a one-shot daily sync was
> not really
> good enough (for most users).  Stations that used WWVB for serious purposes
> used
> outdoor electrostatically-shielded loop antennas, usually up on the roof,
> to get
> enough signal enough of the time.

 This function of disseminating a frequency reference is not mentioned at 
all in the NIST request for information document, nor in  Microsemi’s response.
I expect most calibration labs have their own 5071As  but that is not quite the 
same as having a NIST traceability. My Certificate of Calibration from SRS for 
one of my PRS10 rubidium standards indicates:
«  Stanford Research Systems, Inc. certifies that this instrument has been 
calibrated to manufacturer specifications and accuracy at an ambient 
temperature of 23° +/- using instruments and standards which are traceable to 
the National Institute of Standards and Technology. «
I expect the big labs send their instruments of to Boulder for calibration, but 
there must be some smaller outfits still phase locking off WWVB. We in Europe 
have MSF, DCF and TDF for which off air frequency references are /were 
available and which are probably still being used.
How would this frequency traceability work if WWVB/WWVH pass to a private 
enterprise?   



> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick 
> wrote:
> 
>> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the
>> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
>> 
>> Dana, I’m puzzled by what you wrote.  I have 8 clocks and 2 wristwatches
>> that sync with WWVB.  When band conditions are poor they miss a sync for a
>> day but still they are good quartz clocks so the time readout is still OK.
>> When the band conditions are good again they sync up once per day usually
>> around 2am (according to the manual for my wristwatch).  I can easily tell
>> the sync status on all but 4 of my clocks and they sync successfully about
>> 90% of the overnight times.  My wristwatches are Citizen models that charge
>> by solar which is nice since I have a perfectly in sync watch that never
>> needs to be opened to change a battery.
>> 
>> I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think
>> that would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as
>> Florida, Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the
>> real limitation to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For
>> instance if I have a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB
>> clocks will not sync successfully.
>> 
>> I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to
>> WWVB timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)
>> 
>> Best Wishes,
>> Craig
>> KI7CRA
>> 
>>> On Aug 11, 2018, at 7:48 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like
>>> "shutting down
>>> the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the
>>> whole
>>> enchilada.
>>> 
>>> For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
>>> battery-
>>> backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation
>>> is to
>>> run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to
>>> take my watch
>>> off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
>>> shutdown comes
>>> to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at
>>> least
>>> plans for building one.
>>> 
>>> Dana
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
 With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA
 down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals,
>> and
 so on, is great stuff.
   On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
>> kb...@n1k.org>
 wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
 clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
 It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
 wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
 
 Bob
 
> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
 generally in groups here:
>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
 request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Dana Whitlow]

Craig,

The original main reason for WWVB had nothing to do with syncing our
"atomic"
wristwatches and clocks.  It was for keeping local frequency standards
honest, for
which continuous coverage throughout the day and night was desirable (if not
always achievable).  But for that application, a one-shot daily sync was
not really
good enough (for most users).  Stations that used WWVB for serious purposes
used
outdoor electrostatically-shielded loop antennas, usually up on the roof,
to get
enough signal enough of the time.

I'm curious about your fan-related interference.  Fans of the kind used for
"cooling"
living space generally use induction motors, which per se have no mechanism
for
generating RFI.  However, more modern fans sometimes have digital control
systems, which of course do include built-in RFI generators.I wonder
which variety
you're using.

My Casio watch (module 3405) seems to sync reliably at night if held in a
favorable
orientation through the exercise, but if worn on the wrist at random but
changing
orientation, it often misses.  Fortunately mine seems to drift only about 1
sec per
month when "free running", so I now leave auto-sync turned off and just do
a single
forced sync every few weeks when I decide it's getting "too far off" based
on WWV.

Dana


On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick 
wrote:

> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the
> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
>
> Dana, I’m puzzled by what you wrote.  I have 8 clocks and 2 wristwatches
> that sync with WWVB.  When band conditions are poor they miss a sync for a
> day but still they are good quartz clocks so the time readout is still OK.
> When the band conditions are good again they sync up once per day usually
> around 2am (according to the manual for my wristwatch).  I can easily tell
> the sync status on all but 4 of my clocks and they sync successfully about
> 90% of the overnight times.  My wristwatches are Citizen models that charge
> by solar which is nice since I have a perfectly in sync watch that never
> needs to be opened to change a battery.
>
> I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think
> that would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as
> Florida, Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the
> real limitation to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For
> instance if I have a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB
> clocks will not sync successfully.
>
> I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to
> WWVB timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)
>
> Best Wishes,
> Craig
> KI7CRA
>
> > On Aug 11, 2018, at 7:48 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> >
> > I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like
> > "shutting down
> > the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the
> > whole
> > enchilada.
> >
> > For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
> > battery-
> > backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation
> > is to
> > run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to
> > take my watch
> > off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
> > shutdown comes
> > to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at
> > least
> > plans for building one.
> >
> > Dana
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA
> >> down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals,
> and
> >> so on, is great stuff.
> >>On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
> kb...@n1k.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
> >> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> >> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
> >> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>  I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> >> generally in groups here:
>  https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> >> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>  One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> >> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
> >> and Hawaii"
> >>>
> >>> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions 

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[David J Taylor via time-nuts]

From: Craig Kirkpatrick

I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think 
that would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as 
Florida, Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the 
real limitation to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For 
instance if I have a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB 
clocks will not sync successfully.


I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to WWVB 
timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)


Best Wishes,
Craig
KI7CRA
===

What would be very useful would be if the design could also emulate the UK 
MSF transmissions at 60 kHz (simple on/off coding) and perhaps the DCF77 
transmissions at 77.5 kHz.


One issue (at least with the UK 198 kHz transmitter) is the unobtainability 
of spares such as the high-power valves, I understand.  You're right that 
many devices rely on these LF transmissions, but so do many FM radios rely 
on analogue transmissions which are going, if not already partially gone, in 
Europe.


Thanks,
David GM8ARV
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 



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Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii

[Clay Autery]

And don't forget 25 MHz  they put that back on the air a year or so 
ago...


Crazy idea!  I own multiple frequency references, time servers, et al. 
instrumentation and I STILL use WWV all the time to verify that my 
radios and clocks are IN FACT close to perfect.


73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 12-Aug-18 20:55, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:

I hope this does not happen.  I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How
can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on
2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz.
Also, from my days in the Merchant Marine until now, I for one will truly
miss this service if it is discontinued, and this isn't the first time it
has some up.

I also tell new Hams - if you can understand the message from WWV that
gives out the number in Colorado - your antenna should be in pretty good
shape for HF (and or VHF/UHF at least to verify
it can receive ok).  At least it's an easy rule of thumb and an easy check
for most.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


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Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

[Andy Backus]

A good sextant with a good operator can measure apparent altitude to 0.1 
minutes of arc.  The fastest apparent motion of objects in the sky due to 
rotation of the earth is 0.25 minutes of arc per second.  So the best a sextant 
can do with time (assuming accurate astronomical tables and an exact knowledge 
of position) is 0.4 seconds of time.


acb



From: time-nuts  on behalf of Dana Whitlow 

Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 4:29 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock

How exactly does one get submillisecond time of day precision with a
sextant?
(even if sticks and pebbles are thrown into the mix)
I'd say more like ~1 sec precision on a really fine day, it the sextant is
wielded by
a skilled and practiced operator who has apriori knowledge of his location.

And what about standard frequency dissemination?

I'm also upset about the notion of time distribution and transfer by
internet.  Now
there's a fine example of a system that could be brought down by a single
competent
hacker!

And all it takes is one really good solar flare to bring down GPS (and
Glonass and
the others) semipermanently, if the reports I read are true.

I argue that instead of shutting down distribution avenues, NIST should be
making
additional ones available.

A lot has been said lately about how rapidly our technology is exploding.
But think
about how much of that is critically dependent on precision time transfer
over the
planet, and how much longer it would take mankind to recover from (insert
your favorite
disaster here) without good time and frequency transfer still up and
working.

Dana





On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:06 PM, djl  wrote:

> all you need for a once a day noon fix is a level surface, a stick, and
> some pebbles.
> Don
>
>
> On 2018-08-12 08:29, Scott McGrath wrote:
>
>> And with dependence on GPS we have created a serious vulnerability as
>> too many critical pieces of infrastructure are dependent on a SINGLE
>> precision timing and positioning system.
>>
>> I can use a sextant and have a copy of Bowditch.But they only work
>> on clear days and nights.
>>
>> if GPS goes down for any reason.   Whats the backup solution?
>>
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Lester Veenstra  wrote:
>>
>> Used to work with Wayne on two time transfer via satellite
>> Great guy
>>
>>
>> Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y
>> les...@veenstras.com
>>
>> Physical and US Postal Addresses
>> 5 Shrine Club Drive (Physical)
>> HC84 452 Stable Ln (RFD USPS Mail)
>> Keyser WV 26726
>> GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)
>> GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
>>
>>
>> Telephones:
>> Home: +1-304-289-6057
>> US cell+1-304-790-9192
>> Jamaica cell:   +1-876-456-8898
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of
>> Tom
>> Van Baak
>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 10:19 AM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock
>>
>> Tim,
>>
>> Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our
>> eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13):
>>
>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf
>>
>> There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES
>> satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and
>> finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES
>> receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals
>> in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial
>> G2G (GPS to GOES) translator.
>>
>> Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo
>> and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up.
>> There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks
>> in
>> the NIST T archives:
>>
>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm
>>
>> Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a
>> fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and
>> Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better
>> job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium,
>> etc.
>>
>> If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was
>> published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have
>> even
>> one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's:
>>
>> "Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)"
>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf
>>
>> "A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)"
>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf
>>
>> /tvb
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Tim Shoppa" 
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 

Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii

[Richard Solomon]

With the time keeping capability of GPS, isn't WWV obsolete ??


73, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook

From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bill Hawkins 

Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 4:05:57 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii



Group,

This subject needs some additional detail.  I found an article with comments at

https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/

It is not clear whether WWVB will still be available for all of our cheap 
"atomic" clocks.

One comment says that White House budgets are usually ignored in congress.

Another says that it is NIST that cut WWV and WWVH, not the White House.

Can anyone clarify the situation?

Bill Hawkins
Sent from my retirement home in MN

Change causes confusion until new methods are learned, and a deep sense of loss 
when something familiar goes away.


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Re: [time-nuts] GNSS sky view

[Magnus Danielson]

Plot code and carrier phase residues alongside that.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 08/12/2018 06:30 AM, Mark Sims wrote:
> In preparation for CSRS-PPP's upcoming upgrade to their precise positioning 
> service  I recently got in a new 8 channel GNSS antenna amplifier/splitter 
> that does GPS L1/L2, Glonass, Galileo, Beidou.  I connected one channel to a 
> Ublox M8T and enabled GPS, SBAS, Glonass, and Galileo.
> 
> Attached is a plot of the sky view.  It was tracking 28 satellites with 
> usable signals.  There were actually 38 satellites visible.  If Great Britain 
> gets kicked out of Galileo and goes ahead with their plan to do their own 
> GNSS system, we're gonna need a bigger sky ;-)
> 
> I also recently added a feature to Lady Heather that lets you select a 
> specific satellite and plot its azimuth, elevation, and signal level over 
> time.   Attached is a plot of GPS PRN6 from horizon to horizon.   With my 
> antenna location (horrible) anything below 25 degrees is really bad.  Once 
> you get above 35 degrees things really settle down.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Andy Backus]

WWV HF transmissions include a 100 Hz subcarrier that gives the info in cw 
format.


For generating WWVB code I would suggest simply counting seconds to yield days 
-- the WWVB code takes the day number in the year.  Leap year is easy.  Just 
look up the DST start and stop.


acb



From: time-nuts  on behalf of paul swed 

Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 1:47 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST

Well if the old LF and HF signals go away I am on for yet another wwvb
project and wwv. What the heck.
Creating a AM wwvb is really pretty easy and in fact I have done that.
Can't remember what code that was.
Pretty sure it was basic on SXb2. But the good news is the old BPSK code
isn't needed so it really becomes easy.
The BPSK coder was seriously complicated. (That was the cheatin dePSKr)
So it would be GPS to WWVB code. Have to think about the DST thing. Thats
always a bit messy.

Lastly while I am at it there would be a 5 and 10 MHz wwv simulator at
least ticks and minute tone. Looked at voice and thats a bit of a mess.
They seem to just say numbers. Not sure there are modules that say time
from my bit of research.
Of course have to be careful with transmission levels Looks like its
time yo look up fcc part 97.

Things to ponder.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Wes  wrote:

> Yep, just like "government shutdowns" where all non-essential people stay
> home. (I always wondered why, it they are non-essential they are on the
> payroll in the first place, but what do I know, I'm just a taxpayer.)  But
> what gets shut down first are things like National Parks, which have
> immediate effect on lots of people.
>
> What are the effects on the budget of running WWV/WWVB?  The electric bill
> I would guess.  When John Q. Public's "atomic clock" stops working, they'll
> find a way to pay the bill.
>
> Wes
>
> On 8/12/2018 11:58 AM, djl wrote:
>
>> Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most
>> valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc. This
>> is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
>> Don
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Joe Dempster]

I hope that defunding is just a ploy and things will remain on the air.  I
am concerned this is starting to sound like 2010 when DHS/USCG took eLoran
off the air in the states.  This was one of the few things that totally
dismayed me about the Obama administration.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM djl  wrote:

> Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most
> valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc.
> This is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
> Don
>
>
> On 2018-08-12 12:20, paul swed wrote:
> > Like all of you I have a few wwvb clocks that work pretty well here in
> > Boston.
> > Certainly have written enough wwvb stuff and created various wwvb
> > projects
> > that I will have to get back into it again.
> > I did look at the cron-verter. Have to say it has a lot of nice
> > features.
> > Unfortunately it hasn't been available for a year or so. (Getting lazy)
> > The good news is the AM modulation of wwb is very easy to create.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Dana Whitlow 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something
> >> like
> >> "shutting down
> >> the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include
> >> the
> >> whole
> >> enchilada.
> >>
> >> For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go
> >> to
> >> battery-
> >> backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the
> >> expectation
> >> is to
> >> run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having
> >> to
> >> take my watch
> >> off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
> >> shutdown comes
> >> to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or
> >> at
> >> least
> >> plans for building one.
> >>
> >> Dana
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
> >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >  With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the
> USA
> >> > down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals,
> and
> >> > so on, is great stuff.
> >> > On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
> >> kb...@n1k.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >  Hi
> >> >
> >> > One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s
> “atomic
> >> > clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> >> > It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
> >> > wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
> >> >
> >> > Bob
> >> >
> >> > > On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
> >> > >> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> >> > generally in groups here:
> >> > >> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> >> > request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> >> > >> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> >> > dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in
> Colorado
> >> > and Hawaii"
> >> > >
> >> > > I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> >> > >
> >> > > ___
> >> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Craig Kirkpatrick]

I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the voters 
but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.

Dana, I’m puzzled by what you wrote.  I have 8 clocks and 2 wristwatches that 
sync with WWVB.  When band conditions are poor they miss a sync for a day but 
still they are good quartz clocks so the time readout is still OK.  When the 
band conditions are good again they sync up once per day usually around 2am 
(according to the manual for my wristwatch).  I can easily tell the sync status 
on all but 4 of my clocks and they sync successfully about 90% of the overnight 
times.  My wristwatches are Citizen models that charge by solar which is nice 
since I have a perfectly in sync watch that never needs to be opened to change 
a battery.

I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think that 
would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as Florida, 
Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the real limitation 
to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For instance if I have 
a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB clocks will not sync 
successfully.

I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to WWVB 
timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)

Best Wishes,
Craig
KI7CRA

> On Aug 11, 2018, at 7:48 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> 
> I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like
> "shutting down
> the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the
> whole
> enchilada.
> 
> For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
> battery-
> backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation
> is to
> run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to
> take my watch
> off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
> shutdown comes
> to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at
> least
> plans for building one.
> 
> Dana
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> 
>> With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA
>> down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals, and
>> so on, is great stuff.
>>On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
>> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
>> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
>> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
 I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
>> generally in groups here:
 https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
>> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
 One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
>> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
>> and Hawaii"
>>> 
>>> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[D. Resor]

I wonder if this will also have any effect on Time Service for Computers, 
Personal and Commercial.  A lot of MS Windows products check for the correct 
time using time servers access from the internet.  I'm sure this will also 
affect outdoor clock towers which also use this reference.

Am I mistaken or is WWV the reference for all things dealing with the "time 
service"?

Don Resor

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Dana Whitlow
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2018 7:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST

I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like 
"shutting down the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to 
include the whole enchilada.

For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
battery-
backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation is to 
run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to take my 
watch off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this 
shutdown comes to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB 
converter, or at least plans for building one.

Dana




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