Re: [time-nuts] John Fluke test equipment tutorial

[Azelio Boriani]

It is available here:

This is the first edition (1980) and is almost completely out of date
regarding current metrology techniques. The time and frequency chapter
(17) is only 5 pages long and dedicated to the time transfer using the
Fluke VLF receiver/comparator. The second edition (1994) is a bit more
theoretical.

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:43 AM paul swed  wrote:
>
> Perry kindly shared it with me a week or so ago. Its a really good read.
> Enjoy and thanks Perry.
> Regards
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:00 PM Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> > Yo Bubba Dudes!,
> > I've re-published the John Fluketutorial *Calibration Philosophy and
> > Practice*  Circa 1980.
> >
> >  It describes how all the basicelectrical standards are derived and
> > measured.  It is a 14 MbytePDF.  If anyone is interested in a copy please
> > send me an *original* emailoff list for a copy
> >
> > Regards,
> > Perrier
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Reverse Engineering FTS/Datum/Symmetricom 1050A or 1150A

[ew via time-nuts]

We are spending most of our time to find the best clean up loop, work includes 
EFOS 3 and 4. If would be nice if some one can share info on the 1050A we would 
duplicate and test

Thanks   Bert Kehren


In a message dated 11/25/2019 9:39:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
act...@hotmail.com writes:

Hi Jim;This may be best to go back to Time-Nuts for this.A properly working 
1050A is still one of the best Quartz Standards/Clean-Up Oscillators ever made 
and most likely will be for the foreseeable future making it well worth the 
effort of building extensive documentation - I for one would really enjoy 
contributing to that effort. Actually I think this logic could apply to a 
number of products.Now may be a good time if other Time-Nuts are interest in 
the same thing. A group of Time-Nuts could create a schematic of the basic 
design and the various revisions/options. Add photos, voltages, and signals at 
various test points, and how problems were resolved. I have found that most 
instruments have "The Usual Suspects" a few areas where in the unlikely event 
they have an issue it will often be the same part.  On the short term problem 
you are seeing I would test the 1000B out of circuit first and follow the 
signal path from there. Which options and what are the approximate build dates 
of yours.My main point is years ago there were third party companies like Sam 
Photo Fax offering tech and repair data on a wide range of electronics, and in 
this era where more and more companies are unwilling to share schematics and 
repair info we are seeing communities like the Time-Nuts, Volt-Nuts, and XDevs 
doing just that. Perhaps it is time to bring a more systemic and structured 
approach to that end. I would really enjoy being a part of such an 
effort.Cheers;
Tom Knox
SR Test and Measurement Engineer
Ascent Concepts and Technology
4475 Whitney Place
Boulder Colorado 80305
303-554-0307
act...@hotmail.com
"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK 
and Albert Einstein
From: AC0XU (Jim) 
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 4:26 PMTo: Tom Knox 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Service manuial for FTS 1050A or 
1150A
Tom-
Thanks for that. There is normal power in to the controller board and no power 
out. Shouldn't be too hard to track down, but the power board suprises me in 
its complexity. Was hoping to find a schematic...
BTW, I also have a few of these units. One works really well. Another has very 
poor short time stability.  I am guessing that there is something wrong with 
it, but do you have any ideas what could cause the behavior?
Jim

At 01:22 PM 11/25/2019, you wrote:Hi Jim;Let me know if you have any luck on 
the 1050A manual and I will do the same, I think the 1050A and 5071A are the 
holy Grail of service manuals. I have a couple 1050A's with issues. These are 
great cleanup oscillators, they often far exceed PN specs, I one better then 
128dB @ 1Hz which puts them up there with BVA's. The power board should not be 
to much trouble, If you need me to measure any voltages on a working 1050A let 
me know.Cheers;
Tom Knox
SR Test and Measurement Engineer
NIST/Ascent Concepts and Technology
4475 Whitney Place
Boulder Colorado 80305
303-554-0307
act...@hotmail.com"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of 
Justice" Both MLK and Albert Einstein
From: time-nuts 
 on behalf of AC0XU (Jim) 
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 9:55 AMTo: 
time-nuts@lists.febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Service 
manuial for FTS 1050A or 1150A
Does anyone have a service manual for either FTS 1050A or 1150A (they are 
almost identical)? I have an 1150A with a bad power board
Thanks!
Jim

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Re: [time-nuts] John Fluke test equipment tutorial

[paul swed]

Azelio
A good point you make. From a slightly different perspective. The
technologies that are in the document show up at Hamfests around the east
coast of the US and with this book they make sense as to what they are and
how they are used. It also turns out that many of the devices have very
accurate resistors in them and somehow they have held tolerance over 60
years according to 5.5 digit HP meter.
Some of the devices are obvious in function others are not so clear. But
still a good read.
Regards
Paul

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 3:30 AM Azelio Boriani 
wrote:

> It is available here:
> 
> This is the first edition (1980) and is almost completely out of date
> regarding current metrology techniques. The time and frequency chapter
> (17) is only 5 pages long and dedicated to the time transfer using the
> Fluke VLF receiver/comparator. The second edition (1994) is a bit more
> theoretical.
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:43 AM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> > Perry kindly shared it with me a week or so ago. Its a really good read.
> > Enjoy and thanks Perry.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:00 PM Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Yo Bubba Dudes!,
> > > I've re-published the John Fluketutorial *Calibration Philosophy and
> > > Practice*  Circa 1980.
> > >
> > >  It describes how all the basicelectrical standards are derived and
> > > measured.  It is a 14 MbytePDF.  If anyone is interested in a copy
> please
> > > send me an *original* emailoff list for a copy
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Perrier
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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[time-nuts] Chinese NTP Time server

[xaos]

Hello everyone,

Does anyone here know about this item:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-NTP-Time-Server-GPSDO-GPS-Disciplined-Oscillator-GPS-Clock/362758051388?hash=item547610963c:g:yFIAAOSwgztdgfM9

George, N2FGX

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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese NTP Time server

[David J Taylor via time-nuts]

Hello everyone,

Does anyone here know about this item:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-NTP-Time-Server-GPSDO-GPS-Disciplined-Oscillator-GPS-Clock/362758051388?hash=item547610963c:g:yFIAAOSwgztdgfM9

George, N2FGX
===

Why is part of the board photo blurred out (above the oscillator).

If you only want a time server, a Raspberry Pi and GPS board might well be 
good enough at a much lower cost.  "It depends", of course.


David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 



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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese NTP Time server

[xaos]

David,

I'm always looking for some crazy new project. I have 3 good NTP servers 
all working on 10-15 year old Linux servers with Oncore receivers.


So, I cant leave it alone. I need more !

George

On 2019-11-26 12:35, David J Taylor via time-nuts wrote:

Hello everyone,

Does anyone here know about this item:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-NTP-Time-Server-GPSDO-GPS-Disciplined-Oscillator-GPS-Clock/362758051388?hash=item547610963c:g:yFIAAOSwgztdgfM9

George, N2FGX
===

Why is part of the board photo blurred out (above the oscillator).

If you only want a time server, a Raspberry Pi and GPS board might
well be good enough at a much lower cost.  "It depends", of course.

David


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Re: [time-nuts] Chinese NTP Time server

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

One might *guess* that the blurred area has even more workmanship issues than 
some other places on 
the board ….. :) 

If you look at it as a GPSDO + NTP (if that’s what it is, the listing talks a 
lot about “optional” this and that)
then the price isn’t totally insane. My biggest question would be about 
software updates for the NTP side
of things. This *is* a software intensive sort of thing …..

Bob

> On Nov 26, 2019, at 12:35 PM, David J Taylor via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Does anyone here know about this item:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-NTP-Time-Server-GPSDO-GPS-Disciplined-Oscillator-GPS-Clock/362758051388?hash=item547610963c:g:yFIAAOSwgztdgfM9
> 
> George, N2FGX
> ===
> 
> Why is part of the board photo blurred out (above the oscillator).
> 
> If you only want a time server, a Raspberry Pi and GPS board might well be 
> good enough at a much lower cost.  "It depends", of course.
> 
> David
> -- 
> SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Twitter: @gm8arv 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] John Fluke test equipment tutorial

[Azelio Boriani]

Indeed, and the 1980 edition might be the better choice if you're
looking for circuits you can build.

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 6:00 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
> Azelio
> A good point you make. From a slightly different perspective. The
> technologies that are in the document show up at Hamfests around the east
> coast of the US and with this book they make sense as to what they are and
> how they are used. It also turns out that many of the devices have very
> accurate resistors in them and somehow they have held tolerance over 60
> years according to 5.5 digit HP meter.
> Some of the devices are obvious in function others are not so clear. But
> still a good read.
> Regards
> Paul
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 3:30 AM Azelio Boriani 
> wrote:
>
> > It is available here:
> > 
> > This is the first edition (1980) and is almost completely out of date
> > regarding current metrology techniques. The time and frequency chapter
> > (17) is only 5 pages long and dedicated to the time transfer using the
> > Fluke VLF receiver/comparator. The second edition (1994) is a bit more
> > theoretical.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:43 AM paul swed  wrote:
> > >
> > > Perry kindly shared it with me a week or so ago. Its a really good read.
> > > Enjoy and thanks Perry.
> > > Regards
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:00 PM Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
> > > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yo Bubba Dudes!,
> > > > I've re-published the John Fluketutorial *Calibration Philosophy and
> > > > Practice*  Circa 1980.
> > > >
> > > >  It describes how all the basicelectrical standards are derived and
> > > > measured.  It is a 14 MbytePDF.  If anyone is interested in a copy
> > please
> > > > send me an *original* emailoff list for a copy
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Perrier
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Used ESE ES-911/GPS/NTP Master Time Clock

[Frederick Bray]

I picked up one of these and swapped out the GPS receiver, installing a 
Jackson Labs M12M replacement and temporarily using an external 6 volt 
SLA for backup.  The new receiver works fine, its on-board display shows 
that it sees a bunch of satellites and goes into hold.  However, I can't 
get a readable display on the ES-911 or the GPS lock LED to come on on 
the unit.


Has anyone else tried this or had display problems?

Thanks.

KE6CD

On 10/13/2019 3:07 PM, Gregory Beat via time-nuts wrote:

Time Nuts —

The ESE ES-911/GPS/NTP unit was specifically designed to meet the National 
Emergency Number Association (NENA) Standard NENA-04-002 for a Public Safety 
Answering Point (PSAP) Master Clock.  It traditionally provides “Time 
Synchronizing” all components of a PSAP.
==
Used (surplus) ES-911/GPS/NTP units have appeared on eBay from an east coast 
reseller.  These units were likely surplussed, due to 1024 week rollover issues 
(GPS).
NTP and PSAP usage (911 centers) require an accurate date.

Two nice photos (on auction page) show inside of the rack cabinet.
Some Highlights:

* This ES-911/GPS/NTP model was replaced by ES-911E (new features, components) 
by the “ES-911E” production model.  Newer model has disciplined 10 MHz option 
(K-option).

* Rack mount enclosure.  Plenty of Room for a DIY addition.
* Units are powered by 6 Volts AC (coaxial connector, rear panel).
* 12-channel GPS receiver (ESE normally used Motorola M12(+) receivers).
Contact Art Sepin at Synergy for 1024 rollover or multi-GNSS receiver 
replacement.
https://synergy-gps.com/products/gps/timing-boards-modules/

* 10Base-T port (10 Mbps) for Network Time Protocol (NTP) usage.
ESE formally use WizNet for that plug-in PCB (current vendor ?).
ES-911 can serve as local time server (NTP) for home network (TCP/IP).

* 6 Volt battery (under aluminum bracket in eBay photos),
Digi-Key P128-ND, Panasonic LC-R061R3P
Assume the battery is dead and replace with fresh one, $12.84 USD

* Unit has 1 PPS as well as time-code outputs for remote time displays (useful).

ESE ES-911 Product Sheet (copy not downloadable, from ESE web site)
http://a2dcorp.us/pdf/ese/ES-911%2520GPS%2520NTP.pdf

After you have purchased ES-911/GPS/NTP, Contact ESE Support (with product SN).
ESE can provide (via email) the PDF of Product Manual with Schematic diagram 
and Parts List.  BONUS: Parts are listed for the Options (ESE uses common PCB).

Firmware is password protected (ESE intellectual property) and Flashed/EEPROM 
in the often Intel MCS-51 (8051) processor.
==
Greg, w9gb
Chicago

Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] John Fluke test equipment tutorial

[paul swed]

Azelio really just looking at what methods were used back then. That helps
me understand what I am looking at at a hamfest. Can I use it and how. I
have seen some very nice Gen Rad equipment at bargain prices. Unfortunately
I already had the same Z bridge. But it was a really tempting price and
unit was in mint condition.
But there are many bridges and dividers that show up at $20 or less.
So they just add to the test bench.
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 3:00 PM Azelio Boriani 
wrote:

> Indeed, and the 1980 edition might be the better choice if you're
> looking for circuits you can build.
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 6:00 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> > Azelio
> > A good point you make. From a slightly different perspective. The
> > technologies that are in the document show up at Hamfests around the east
> > coast of the US and with this book they make sense as to what they are
> and
> > how they are used. It also turns out that many of the devices have very
> > accurate resistors in them and somehow they have held tolerance over 60
> > years according to 5.5 digit HP meter.
> > Some of the devices are obvious in function others are not so clear. But
> > still a good read.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 3:30 AM Azelio Boriani  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It is available here:
> > > 
> > > This is the first edition (1980) and is almost completely out of date
> > > regarding current metrology techniques. The time and frequency chapter
> > > (17) is only 5 pages long and dedicated to the time transfer using the
> > > Fluke VLF receiver/comparator. The second edition (1994) is a bit more
> > > theoretical.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:43 AM paul swed  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Perry kindly shared it with me a week or so ago. Its a really good
> read.
> > > > Enjoy and thanks Perry.
> > > > Regards
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:00 PM Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
> > > > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yo Bubba Dudes!,
> > > > > I've re-published the John Fluketutorial *Calibration Philosophy
> and
> > > > > Practice*  Circa 1980.
> > > > >
> > > > >  It describes how all the basicelectrical standards are derived and
> > > > > measured.  It is a 14 MbytePDF.  If anyone is interested in a copy
> > > please
> > > > > send me an *original* emailoff list for a copy
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Perrier
> > > > > ___
> > > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > > >
> > > > ___
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> > > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
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> > >
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Re: [time-nuts] A simple sampling DMTD

[Jan-Derk Bakker]

[This thread has started about three months ago; first post with design
considerations is here:
https://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts@lists.febo.com/msg04265.html ]

Dear all,

In the past month I have managed to get the PLL working, and found a
lightweight way to eliminate most if not all of the offset/drift.

After the discussions with Attila and Bob I have expanded the PLL bandwidth
to 0.5Hz (with a 10Hz PFD frequency I can't go very much higher). The
damping factor is 0.7 for now; I intend to do more tests on how an
increased damping affects the ZCD. To get sufficient ECD drive resolution I
have implemented a 3rd order multibit sigma/delta modulator driving a
12-bit ADC (with passive filtering and active buffering). The result of the
measured beat note period can be seen at
http://www.lartmaker.nl/time-nuts/PSD%20of%20measured%20ZCD%20period%20with%20PLL%20active.pdf
; peaking is shown to be limited.

With an active PLL the beat note spectrum became much narrower (compare
http://www.lartmaker.nl/time-nuts/PSD%20of%20HP10811%20into%20the%20LTC2140%20with%20PLL%20active.pdf
to
http://www.lartmaker.nl/time-nuts/DMTD%20self-noise%20input%20spectrum.pdf
). This made it possible to use a comb filter to suppress even-order
harmonics (before adding hardware notch filtering at the input).

The 1001-point FIR band pass filter is a good reference to get an idea of
the best case performance of the system, but it is computationally
infeasible to run on an 8-bit processor. While a cheap comb filter can take
a bite out of the HF noise, canceling offset/drift is harder. Early on I
was looking into ways to average all samples of a single period of the beat
note, but I had trouble finding a closed form solution to the fact that the
beat note period is never an exact integer multiple of the sampling rate.
Through numerical methods I did end up finding a good estimator for the
"leakthrough" caused by the fractional part of the beat note period (as a
function of the measured period and the phase offset), which was fairly
inexpensive to implement. This has yielded a combined "simple" signal
processing path of a differentiator, a double comb filter and the offset
estimator, which is getting very close in performance to the "ideal" band
pass filter (OADEV of 3.77e-13@tau=1s versus 3.25e-13@tau=1s for the BPF;
full plot:
http://www.lartmaker.nl/time-nuts/DMTD%20self-noise%20OADEV%20with%20PLL%20and%20various%20filters.pdf
for this 60-second recording:
http://www.lartmaker.nl/time-nuts/600ksec%20run%20with%20PLL,%2010811%20through%20splitter.png
. OADEV past ~1000sec is severely compromised by the fact that the
measurement setup is in my home lab which sees temperature swings of up to
20 degrees C and which does get bumped from time to time. Longer runs in a
more controlled setting forthcoming).

One thing that I didn't expect (but which is obvious in retrospect): the
more filtering before the ZCD, the smaller the effect of adding more points
to the least squares ZCD curve fitting.

As far as I'm concerned this is as good as the microcontroller-only DMTD is
going to get (and not many applications will *need* better performance). I
will be implementing the FPGA daughterboard which I expect will improve the
performance by a factor of 10 (if only by averaging all 100 samples rather
than just dropping 99 of them), mostly because it makes comparing sources
with different frequencies much easier (which is one of my use cases).

Any suggestions?

Once again to be continued,

JDB.

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 1:41 AM Jan-Derk Bakker  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Attila got me thinking with his remark:
>
> I am a bit astonished by the high noise level you have. I would have
>> expected
>> this to yield something below 1ps, judging from what we got from what
>> Nicolas
>> acheived in his work on the sine exitation based TIC[1].
>
>
> ...and I realised that I'm expressing the error wrong. What I had
> calculated was the standard deviation of the entire signal (noise +
> drift/wander). For short time periods I do get sub-ps noise levels, even
> without correcting for LF/DC errors.
>
> It may make more sense to look at the Allan deviation. I've used tvb's
> adev1 tool ( http://www.leapsecond.com/tools/adev1.htm ), with a manual
> correction to accommodate the 10sps data. To investigate the effect of high
> pass filtering and attenuating even-order harmonics, I've generated
> 1001-point high pass and band pass FIR filters with GMeteor (
> http://gmeteor.sourceforge.net/ ; the odd size of 1001 points being the
> largest size I could reliably get the program to generate filter solutions
> for); the BPF was generated to have nulls at 20, 40, 60 and 80Hz. 10MHz was
> generated with an 10811 that had been powered up for three days after
> having been in storage for over a year, its output fed to a Mini-Circuits
> ZFSC-2-1 splitter, connected to the DMTD with two 3in semi-rigid cables.
> The test was run for 175k seconds (just over 2 days) in a very mu

[time-nuts] ES-911/GPS/NTP DIP Switch Settings

[Frederick Bray]

Thanks for all the useful information posted about this unit. Since my 
earlier post, it appears that the Jackson Labs replacement receiver is 
working and I now have a readable display on the E-911.


I'm sending an e-mail to ESE with the serial number of my unit 
requesting the manual. However, could someone who already has 
documentation please pass along the DIP switch settings?  I have found 
that the right bank seems to determine the offset from UTC. I think that 
by trial and error, I've found the settings for my time zone and I even 
discovered the 30 minute offset feature. However, the front panel 
display differs by 5 minutes from the on-board display on the Jackson 
Labs receiver.  I'm trying to figure out the source of this difference.  
It appears that the change in the seconds display is in visual sync with 
the PPS led on the Jackson board.


Thanks in advance.

KE6CD


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