Re: [time-nuts] Looking for data on a couple of XO's
Hi At least at Vectron / Norwalk, the standard process was to get in an order that was based on the catalog part number. Even if it was for 5 pieces and a dead stock item, a 4 digit code was generated. Any order that came in after the first one likely used the 4 digit code. It took care of “fitting” the part number into a database field and / or reduced the typo errors on the long catalog part numbers. Bob > On May 25, 2020, at 12:05 PM, Dave Miller wrote: > > Thank you Bob, > That gives me enough confirmation and direction to do some testing. > BTW it was not a Fleabay purchase but a gift from a good friend. Here I > thought you might like this. :-) > I shall report back my findings. > Thanks > Dave > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 7:48 AM Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> Hi >> >> It’s a good bet that the power is as indicated. Is there a second supply? >> …. who knows .. in some cases there is. Is it an XO, a VCXO, a TCXO, >> or an OCXO? The base part number should give you some indication >> of that. >> >> If it’s a voltage controlled device one of the “not ground, not power , not >> output” pins should tune the beast. Try feeding a 2 to 3 V signal through >> a >> 10K ohm resistor to the suspect pins and see what happens. They also >> might be enable / disable or factory adjust pins, thus the isolation and >> low >> voltage. >> >> A pin that comes up with a voltage on it when the unit is powered is likely >> a Vref pin. It might be a combined Vref / tune pin …. again who knows. If >> a 10K to ground on the pin tunes the part, it’s a combined pin. >> >> Output wise, if it’s logic output, your scope should tell you all you need >> to >> know. If it’s sine wave, load is *probably* 50 ohms. It could be just about >> anything …. >> >> Stability wise you are flying blind. Is it more stable than a 30 cent TCXO >> from China? Does it have better phase noise? Are it’s harmonics better? >> No way to know without measuring each parameter. >> >> Indeed, even if you *had* the spec sheet, there is no guarantee that the >> eBay part you have still meet it’s original specs. >> >> If supply is not marked, then a careful guess about pins is the first step. >> Next is a gentle application of power with careful monitoring as you >> go from 3 to 5 to 9 to 12 to 15 to 24. If it’s a negative supply part, good >> luck figuring that out….. >> >> Lots of fun !!! >> >> Bob >> >>> On May 25, 2020, at 10:08 AM, VE7HR wrote: >>> >>> Let’s ask this another way then, >>> Can anyone point me towards a good basic care and feeding of XO’S >>> The looks on the time nuts landing webpage give 404 errors. >>> After some more searching the web I bet I can figure out the pinout of >> the connector as they all seems to be the same on the timekeeper devices. >> The voltage is marked so that is easy. >>> What are the common electrical tuning voltages and how might you black >> box them? >>> Are old ones bipolar or unipolar? I will experiment but like to keep >> the smoke in the can. >>> >>> Any help is appreciated. >>> Thanks >>> Dave >>> VE7HR >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> On May 25, 2020, at 5:05 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi Both part numbers are “OEM” numbers. In both cases, the official company policy is to not hand out the specs. There are a number of reasons for >> this, including the time needed to dig out the latest spec. (it’s not as easy >> to go through 50+ years and > 60,000 paper specs as it might seem …). The >> other driver is that they like selling spares ….. Bob > On May 24, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Dave Miller wrote: > > I did a bit of Googling and have come up with nothing so I joined up to > this list and will ask a few questions. > > Looking for a data sheet for Vectron Model 207-5916. I know it's >> 10MHz. It > seems to produce an output powered by 12V and I expect the white wire >> is > for the wiper of the frequency adjusting pot. > That was just a WAG based on the colours of the wires on the connector. > > Second one is a Wenzel 500-0481. If I recall, I called Wenzel a while >> ago > and they would not give me a pinout as it was a proprietary parts >> number. > > Is there a standard on the- multi pin connector. It's marked 12V 10Mhz. > They also wanted me to send them in for calibration as they said it >> was so > old they were curious to see what frequency it was. It's a virgin with > no wire ever soldered to it so I can't guess the wiring. > I did not send it in as the shipping and calibration charges were > significant. > > While I wait for my 5372A I have the Vectron warming up connected to > Timelabs with a talk only HP counter. > > Thanks > Dave > > > -- > 72 de Dave > VE7HR > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to >>
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for data on a couple of XO's
Thank you Bob, That gives me enough confirmation and direction to do some testing. BTW it was not a Fleabay purchase but a gift from a good friend. Here I thought you might like this. :-) I shall report back my findings. Thanks Dave On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 7:48 AM Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > It’s a good bet that the power is as indicated. Is there a second supply? > …. who knows .. in some cases there is. Is it an XO, a VCXO, a TCXO, > or an OCXO? The base part number should give you some indication > of that. > > If it’s a voltage controlled device one of the “not ground, not power , not > output” pins should tune the beast. Try feeding a 2 to 3 V signal through > a > 10K ohm resistor to the suspect pins and see what happens. They also > might be enable / disable or factory adjust pins, thus the isolation and > low > voltage. > > A pin that comes up with a voltage on it when the unit is powered is likely > a Vref pin. It might be a combined Vref / tune pin …. again who knows. If > a 10K to ground on the pin tunes the part, it’s a combined pin. > > Output wise, if it’s logic output, your scope should tell you all you need > to > know. If it’s sine wave, load is *probably* 50 ohms. It could be just about > anything …. > > Stability wise you are flying blind. Is it more stable than a 30 cent TCXO > from China? Does it have better phase noise? Are it’s harmonics better? > No way to know without measuring each parameter. > > Indeed, even if you *had* the spec sheet, there is no guarantee that the > eBay part you have still meet it’s original specs. > > If supply is not marked, then a careful guess about pins is the first step. > Next is a gentle application of power with careful monitoring as you > go from 3 to 5 to 9 to 12 to 15 to 24. If it’s a negative supply part, good > luck figuring that out….. > > Lots of fun !!! > > Bob > > > On May 25, 2020, at 10:08 AM, VE7HR wrote: > > > > Let’s ask this another way then, > > Can anyone point me towards a good basic care and feeding of XO’S > > The looks on the time nuts landing webpage give 404 errors. > > After some more searching the web I bet I can figure out the pinout of > the connector as they all seems to be the same on the timekeeper devices. > The voltage is marked so that is easy. > > What are the common electrical tuning voltages and how might you black > box them? > > Are old ones bipolar or unipolar? I will experiment but like to keep > the smoke in the can. > > > > Any help is appreciated. > > Thanks > > Dave > > VE7HR > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On May 25, 2020, at 5:05 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> Both part numbers are “OEM” numbers. In both cases, the official company > >> policy is to not hand out the specs. There are a number of reasons for > this, > >> including the time needed to dig out the latest spec. (it’s not as easy > to go > >> through 50+ years and > 60,000 paper specs as it might seem …). The > other > >> driver is that they like selling spares ….. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On May 24, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Dave Miller wrote: > >>> > >>> I did a bit of Googling and have come up with nothing so I joined up to > >>> this list and will ask a few questions. > >>> > >>> Looking for a data sheet for Vectron Model 207-5916. I know it's > 10MHz. It > >>> seems to produce an output powered by 12V and I expect the white wire > is > >>> for the wiper of the frequency adjusting pot. > >>> That was just a WAG based on the colours of the wires on the connector. > >>> > >>> Second one is a Wenzel 500-0481. If I recall, I called Wenzel a while > ago > >>> and they would not give me a pinout as it was a proprietary parts > number. > >>> > >>> Is there a standard on the- multi pin connector. It's marked 12V 10Mhz. > >>> They also wanted me to send them in for calibration as they said it > was so > >>> old they were curious to see what frequency it was. It's a virgin with > >>> no wire ever soldered to it so I can't guess the wiring. > >>> I did not send it in as the shipping and calibration charges were > >>> significant. > >>> > >>> While I wait for my 5372A I have the Vectron warming up connected to > >>> Timelabs with a talk only HP counter. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> Dave > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> 72 de Dave > >>> VE7HR > >>> ___ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for data on a couple of XO's
Hi It’s a good bet that the power is as indicated. Is there a second supply? …. who knows .. in some cases there is. Is it an XO, a VCXO, a TCXO, or an OCXO? The base part number should give you some indication of that. If it’s a voltage controlled device one of the “not ground, not power , not output” pins should tune the beast. Try feeding a 2 to 3 V signal through a 10K ohm resistor to the suspect pins and see what happens. They also might be enable / disable or factory adjust pins, thus the isolation and low voltage. A pin that comes up with a voltage on it when the unit is powered is likely a Vref pin. It might be a combined Vref / tune pin …. again who knows. If a 10K to ground on the pin tunes the part, it’s a combined pin. Output wise, if it’s logic output, your scope should tell you all you need to know. If it’s sine wave, load is *probably* 50 ohms. It could be just about anything …. Stability wise you are flying blind. Is it more stable than a 30 cent TCXO from China? Does it have better phase noise? Are it’s harmonics better? No way to know without measuring each parameter. Indeed, even if you *had* the spec sheet, there is no guarantee that the eBay part you have still meet it’s original specs. If supply is not marked, then a careful guess about pins is the first step. Next is a gentle application of power with careful monitoring as you go from 3 to 5 to 9 to 12 to 15 to 24. If it’s a negative supply part, good luck figuring that out….. Lots of fun !!! Bob > On May 25, 2020, at 10:08 AM, VE7HR wrote: > > Let’s ask this another way then, > Can anyone point me towards a good basic care and feeding of XO’S > The looks on the time nuts landing webpage give 404 errors. > After some more searching the web I bet I can figure out the pinout of the > connector as they all seems to be the same on the timekeeper devices. The > voltage is marked so that is easy. > What are the common electrical tuning voltages and how might you black box > them? > Are old ones bipolar or unipolar? I will experiment but like to keep the > smoke in the can. > > Any help is appreciated. > Thanks > Dave > VE7HR > > Sent from my iPad > >> On May 25, 2020, at 5:05 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> Both part numbers are “OEM” numbers. In both cases, the official company >> policy is to not hand out the specs. There are a number of reasons for this, >> including the time needed to dig out the latest spec. (it’s not as easy to go >> through 50+ years and > 60,000 paper specs as it might seem …). The other >> driver is that they like selling spares ….. >> >> Bob >> >>> On May 24, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Dave Miller wrote: >>> >>> I did a bit of Googling and have come up with nothing so I joined up to >>> this list and will ask a few questions. >>> >>> Looking for a data sheet for Vectron Model 207-5916. I know it's 10MHz. It >>> seems to produce an output powered by 12V and I expect the white wire is >>> for the wiper of the frequency adjusting pot. >>> That was just a WAG based on the colours of the wires on the connector. >>> >>> Second one is a Wenzel 500-0481. If I recall, I called Wenzel a while ago >>> and they would not give me a pinout as it was a proprietary parts number. >>> >>> Is there a standard on the- multi pin connector. It's marked 12V 10Mhz. >>> They also wanted me to send them in for calibration as they said it was so >>> old they were curious to see what frequency it was. It's a virgin with >>> no wire ever soldered to it so I can't guess the wiring. >>> I did not send it in as the shipping and calibration charges were >>> significant. >>> >>> While I wait for my 5372A I have the Vectron warming up connected to >>> Timelabs with a talk only HP counter. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> -- >>> 72 de Dave >>> VE7HR >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time sync by moonbounce
Hi Jim, This explains a lot of things. As an old time user of the Moon Bounce time synchronization in the Madrid Space Complex, I can say that the system was never popular among the users, it was cumbersome to use and there were already other systems with better accuracy and availability, such as VLBI and Loran-C. We used Loran-C as our daily reference because we had a station at a distance of 650 Km and the signal was very good, even with an old receiver who needed manual estimation of the delay the results were very good. Maybe the aliens who designed the system were not very aware of the humans idiosyncrasies I think that the idea was good, but the implementation was not so good. I can summarize the "peculiarities" as I remember them: - The transmissions had to be scheduled for a period of common moon view. The receiving station was manned 7/24 but the transmitting station (DSS13, if I remember it correctly) had to be manned specially for the event by a crew probably from Barstow, some 40 miles away. - Normally there were not provisions for voice communications between the two end points, so if we did not got correlations we didn't know if the transmitting station was working ok or even if it was not manned due to some problem. - There were not monitoring aids in the receiver, so if we did not have correlations, we has to climb to the roof, verify the pointing of the antenna (there were a rifle scope for that), and if it was, tried to contact DSS13 by phone and pray. - As you can figure it out, the antenna was not remotely controlled. One had to climb to the roof, set the moon declination for that day using a handwheel, slew the hour angle with a switch and select the hour angle rate with another switch. The moon position and rate was obtained from a nautical almanac and when the sky was clear we used the above mentioned rifle scope. The receiver was quite dumb, all intelligence was on the transmitter site. The TX equipment generated a PN code that lasted about 1s, and a full observation cycle lasted about a minute, I don't remember the exact figures. The code was sent advanced to take care of the round trip light time but an additional time bias of 30 us was also introduced which was the basis of the measurement. The bias was decreased 1us/s, so theoretically it was received just on time in the second 30. The receiver generated the same PN using the station timing reference (from a HP 5065A Rb) and it was correlated with the received code. The output of the correlator was integrated and sent to a strip chart recorder. The graph consisted in one trace with a quite noisy ramp and the other trace with 1PPS from the station reference. Now the weird thing: after finishing an observation, we put the graph in a desk and using a drafting rule we draw a straight line that tried to be the "best fit" to the noisy ramp. Were the line crossed the zero we read the PPS mark there and counting back to the start of the minute we got the PPS offset with respect to the transmitting station. Of course we averaged the values obtained from several minutes, after discarding the noisiest ones. Since we didn't had any faith in the system we didn't tried to suggest improvements or improve it ourselves. A good one could be to use a computer program to perform the best fit analytically, but this would mean to type the hundreds of points manually from the graph and we never tried this. There were not a digital version of the output, we also could use a digital voltmeter for acquiring it. We suggested or implemented a lot of improvements to other operational things, but this contraption was felt as a dead horse from the beginning and its operational life was short. Later it was replaced with a GPS based one: 2 full height racks filled with equipment and an antenna made from a 10 or 20 gallon hermetic paint drum for housing the front end electronics, topped with a fiberglass radome about 1 1/2 ' in diameter. It was painted white, but the cylinder origin was discovered during a maintenance. It was a beautiful prototype that worked very well during its shot life. I don't keep pictures of this equipment, but I have one with the same antenna used for other purposes. Sorry for the bandwidth, but the thread brought me old memories. Best regards, Ignacio El 23/05/2020 a las 19:17, jimlux escribió: On 5/23/20 9:18 AM, Mike Millen wrote: Probably a good idea... there are two page 19s and no page 20 in the pdf. :-( That's the page where the aliens came and told us how to build the DSN, then the story resumes with 26m antenna design and operation. (If anyone's interested, I can probably ask the librarians to find it at JPL - correcting the pdf/microfilm is probably beyond scope) -- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for data on a couple of XO's
Let’s ask this another way then, Can anyone point me towards a good basic care and feeding of XO’S The looks on the time nuts landing webpage give 404 errors. After some more searching the web I bet I can figure out the pinout of the connector as they all seems to be the same on the timekeeper devices. The voltage is marked so that is easy. What are the common electrical tuning voltages and how might you black box them? Are old ones bipolar or unipolar? I will experiment but like to keep the smoke in the can. Any help is appreciated. Thanks Dave VE7HR Sent from my iPad > On May 25, 2020, at 5:05 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > > Hi > > Both part numbers are “OEM” numbers. In both cases, the official company > policy is to not hand out the specs. There are a number of reasons for this, > including the time needed to dig out the latest spec. (it’s not as easy to go > through 50+ years and > 60,000 paper specs as it might seem …). The other > driver is that they like selling spares ….. > > Bob > >> On May 24, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Dave Miller wrote: >> >> I did a bit of Googling and have come up with nothing so I joined up to >> this list and will ask a few questions. >> >> Looking for a data sheet for Vectron Model 207-5916. I know it's 10MHz. It >> seems to produce an output powered by 12V and I expect the white wire is >> for the wiper of the frequency adjusting pot. >> That was just a WAG based on the colours of the wires on the connector. >> >> Second one is a Wenzel 500-0481. If I recall, I called Wenzel a while ago >> and they would not give me a pinout as it was a proprietary parts number. >> >> Is there a standard on the- multi pin connector. It's marked 12V 10Mhz. >> They also wanted me to send them in for calibration as they said it was so >> old they were curious to see what frequency it was. It's a virgin with >> no wire ever soldered to it so I can't guess the wiring. >> I did not send it in as the shipping and calibration charges were >> significant. >> >> While I wait for my 5372A I have the Vectron warming up connected to >> Timelabs with a talk only HP counter. >> >> Thanks >> Dave >> >> >> -- >> 72 de Dave >> VE7HR >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for data on a couple of XO's
Hi Both part numbers are “OEM” numbers. In both cases, the official company policy is to not hand out the specs. There are a number of reasons for this, including the time needed to dig out the latest spec. (it’s not as easy to go through 50+ years and > 60,000 paper specs as it might seem …). The other driver is that they like selling spares ….. Bob > On May 24, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Dave Miller wrote: > > I did a bit of Googling and have come up with nothing so I joined up to > this list and will ask a few questions. > > Looking for a data sheet for Vectron Model 207-5916. I know it's 10MHz. It > seems to produce an output powered by 12V and I expect the white wire is > for the wiper of the frequency adjusting pot. > That was just a WAG based on the colours of the wires on the connector. > > Second one is a Wenzel 500-0481. If I recall, I called Wenzel a while ago > and they would not give me a pinout as it was a proprietary parts number. > > Is there a standard on the- multi pin connector. It's marked 12V 10Mhz. > They also wanted me to send them in for calibration as they said it was so > old they were curious to see what frequency it was. It's a virgin with > no wire ever soldered to it so I can't guess the wiring. > I did not send it in as the shipping and calibration charges were > significant. > > While I wait for my 5372A I have the Vectron warming up connected to > Timelabs with a talk only HP counter. > > Thanks > Dave > > > -- > 72 de Dave > VE7HR > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for data on a couple of XO's
I believe Wenzel makes custom parts for various customers and won't divulge any info unless you are that customer. I did email them and they were willing to provide me a datasheet of a similar standard part. You could try asking that. I have a 500-16423A and they sent a datasheet for a 501-14057 that it was similar to. Does the one you have look like a standard part they have? In my case the reference input frequency to lock to was different from the standard. I just swept the input frequency slowly till it locked and figured out what it was. 73, Mark W7MLG On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:15 PM Dave Miller wrote: > I did a bit of Googling and have come up with nothing so I joined up to > this list and will ask a few questions. > > Looking for a data sheet for Vectron Model 207-5916. I know it's 10MHz. It > seems to produce an output powered by 12V and I expect the white wire is > for the wiper of the frequency adjusting pot. > That was just a WAG based on the colours of the wires on the connector. > > Second one is a Wenzel 500-0481. If I recall, I called Wenzel a while ago > and they would not give me a pinout as it was a proprietary parts number. > > Is there a standard on the- multi pin connector. It's marked 12V 10Mhz. > They also wanted me to send them in for calibration as they said it was so > old they were curious to see what frequency it was. It's a virgin with > no wire ever soldered to it so I can't guess the wiring. > I did not send it in as the shipping and calibration charges were > significant. > > While I wait for my 5372A I have the Vectron warming up connected to > Timelabs with a talk only HP counter. > > Thanks > Dave > > > -- > 72 de Dave > VE7HR > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
