Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation
the killing of one in every ten of a group of people as a punishment for the whole group (originally with reference to a mutinous Roman legion). -Original Message- From: Richard Solomon via time-nuts To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Cc: Richard Solomon Sent: Tue, Feb 25, 2020 7:41 am Subject: Re: [time-nuts] decimation versus decimation The Ancient Romans had another, not so nice, definition. 73, Dick, W1KSZ On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM Dana Whitlow via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > I'm confused: > > I seem to see multiple (at least double) meanings for the term > 'decimation'. > > One meaning is simply: "take every nth sample and discard > the others without regard to possible aliasing". > > The other meaning is: "take every nth sample, but first prefilter > as appropriate to (sensibly) eliminate aliasing". > > Which is it? And if the answer is "both", then shouldn't we all > be very careful to explicitly specify which meaning applies to > the situation at hand whenever we use the term "decimation"? > > Thanks, > > Dana K8YUM > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 100 MHz decade Divider II
Send me your snail mail address and I'll send you a pcb with a 12080 attached with regulator chip etc. Just attache power input and output leads and you have a nice divide by 10 prescaler on a 1/2 inch by 1.5 inch pcb. Glad to help Bob, KE6F -Original Message- From: Perry Sandeen via time-nuts To: time-nuts Cc: Perry Sandeen Sent: Sat, Nov 30, 2019 10:01 pm Subject: [time-nuts] 100 MHz decade Divider II Yo Bubba Dudes!, Thanks to all who replied. Gerhard, besides giving me voluminous component information asked a number of good questions so I thought the list might be interested. First I'm going to use dip components as I'm unable to use any of the cad programs for PC circuit design. If one could do a PC board design AND was happy using SOT components that would be the way to go being smaller and less expensive. By doing it the *obsolete way* I have a way to build that fits my skills level. From I'm going to use used Wenzel OCXO's as they're stable and have EFC plus I'm able to wire them. The reason for these oscillators is that out of each phase detector I'll have an error multiplication of 10X. So the second stage makes it 100X and the third stage would be 1,000X So with this amount of error multiplication I want an extremely stable un-temperamental Oscillator whose error will just caused by the EFC. For my decade divider I'm going with the 74AS161N which is about $5 from Mouser but less than $2 on ebay. From Gerhard's and other list comments I'd never choose Morion oscillators. My plan it to buy the oscillators from the vendor RF-Buy in China. IIRC he's been around for over 10 years with a good reputation. Another factor from buying from his is that he has stock in depth which indicates to me he's a serious source.I'm attaching my rough conceptual schematic toshow what I'm trying to achieve. Comments appreciated. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5 Mhz to 10 Mhz and 25 Mhz
You might look at the NB3N502 PLL mult chip. I've used this chip on my rubidium interface board and other projects. It's cheap, current production and does a number of multipliers from 2X 2.5X 3X 3.33x 4X and 5X Available from Mouser and others. I'm using one in a hybrid CW transmitter as a nearly coil-less scheme with a 6CL6 final. all 5 bands from either a 80 meter or 40 meter crystal. Keys really clean too. Bob, KE6F -Original Message- From: paul swed To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:01 am Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5 Mhz to 10 Mhz and 25 Mhz Bert was looking at the ICS512 and have to agree the price is cheap. How have you applied them. It seems really simple. Do you follow with filtering. Looking at 5 > 10 MHz and 5 > 15... regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 7:03 AM ew via time-nuts wrote: > PaulThe easiest way is one or two ICS512 or ICS570B we use the 570 > extensively. Digi Key and ebay have both > Bert Kehren > In a message dated 9/8/2019 10:49:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, > p...@bicknells.f2s.com writes: > > Dear all > > Can any one point me in the direction of a circuit that can convert > 5 Mhz signal to give me 2 outputs one at 10 Mhz and another at 25 Mhz > > > Regards Paul B > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] injection locking crystal oscillator
Hi a simple example of an injection locked oscillator is the Collins 618T3 avionics HF transceiver. The 3 MHz master crystal oscillator is used to injection lock the lower frequency oscillators such as the 500 KHz source for the unit's IF section. It uses simple off the shelf inductors and a few bi-polar transistors and seems to be a great solution instead of noisy odd-ball dividers. Check it out.Bob, KE6F -Original Message- From: Bill Byrom To: time-nuts Sent: Sat, Mar 2, 2019 5:00 am Subject: Re: [time-nuts] injection locking crystal oscillator In the June 1946 issue of "Proceedings of the I.R.E.", Robert Adler published "A Study of Locking Phenomena in Oscillators*. I believe this is the first full study of injection locking. This paper was so important that it was republished in the October 1973 issue of "Proceedings of the IEEE". This paper give the required condition (under a small signal approximation) for injection synchronization as: (Einj/E) > (2 Q) | delta w / w | (equation 13b) I can't accurately reproduce this equation in plaintext, but it states that the ratio of the injected voltage to natural oscillator voltage must be greater than twice the product of the circuit Q and the absolute value of the fractional frequency error between the injection frequency and natural oscillator frequency. From this equation it would appear that for a large Q (such as 100,000) the lock range of the injection frequency would be much less than +/- 5 ppm, since the injection voltage would normally be much less than the natural oscillator voltage. For lower Q circuits a larger lock range would be available as long as the injection voltage wasn't too weak. Access to the Adler paper from either of the publication dates requires IEEE membership or related credentials, but the principles laid out there are extended in the freely available papers below: ** "A Study of Injection Locking and Pulling in Oscillators" (Behzad Razavi in IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits, September 2004) : http://www.seas.ucla.edu/brweb/papers/Journals/RSep04.pdf This paper derives in a different manner "Adler's equation" [ equation (28) in the paper ], which describes the behavior of LC oscillators under injection. This should also be applicable to crystal (and other resonator) oscillators. Section III (Injection Pulling) C (Quasi-lock) describes the behavior when the injection frequency is outside the lock range. Section IV (Requisite Oscillator Nonlinearity) shows that nonlinear behavior in the oscillator is necessary for injection locking to work. Section V (Phase Noise) describes the reduction of the phase noise of an oscillator by a low-noise injection source. Section VI describes the effect of injection pulling on a PLL. ** "Gen-Adler: The Generalized Adler’s Equation for Injection Locking Analysis in Oscillators" (Bhansali and Roychowdhury in IEEE 2009 Asia and South Pacific Design Automation Conference): http://potol.eecs.berkeley.edu/~jr/research/PDFs/2009-01-ASPDAC-Bhansali-Roychowdhury-GenAdler.pdf The second paper listed above uses "Perturbation Projection Vector (PPV)" analysis, which I don't understand. The authors derive a Generalized Adler's equation which is valid for any type of oscillator. Ring oscillators are discussed, and oscillator waveforms are shown when the injection has a sine, square wave, or exponential waveform. I post this in case anyone wants to use an analytical approach to investigating injection locking. -- Bill Byrom N5BB On Fri, Mar 1, 2019, at 9:00 AM, Neil wrote: > I have five systems using injection locking. There are a few issues to > watch. If you inject at too high a level, any noise on the reference > will appear in the oscillator output. I use a 56 ohm resistor to > terminate the reference signal coax input, then a 100pF cap and a series > resistor connected to on leg of the crystal. The resistor value needs > to be selected so I can get a solid pull-in and lock over an > acceptably-wide range. In most cases, I am multiplying the crystal osc > up to 3.3, 5.6 or 10.2 GHz and using a PLL chip driven from an Rb as the > reference to generate 0dBm at the correct locking frequency around 117 > MHz for example. > > If the crystal free-runs close to the lock frequency, say within 200ppb, > the series resistor can be 5k or so, and there is almost no effect on > close-in noise, and no sign of spurs. If I have to pull the crystal > more than about +-500ppb, the resistor needs to be a few hundred ohms, > and the synth noise sidebands start to be seen in the osc output. With > a 70 ohm series resistor, the noise of the osc is only about 10dB down > on the noise of the synth, but the lock-in range is around +-1200 ppb, > slightly more on the LF side. > > When the osc drifts too far away from the reference, or the level is too > low, you get a spread of frequencies out of the oscillator as it tries > to pull into
Re: [time-nuts] Prescalers ?
HiI use the Moto 12080 prescaler chip for that application on my various counters. it's strappable for Div by 10 and works in excess of 1 GHz, easy to feed. Sensitivity in the -20 Dbm range 50 ohms. SMT package. Cheap too. I have some excess boards 3/8 inch by 1 1/2 inch with on-board regulator. if anyone is interested. Bob, KE6F -Original Message- From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ; Bob kb8tq Sent: Thu, Jan 24, 2019 9:01 am Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prescalers ? On 1/24/2019 5:17 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > If you have a one time need to get to 1.3 GHz then some sort of cobbled > together dead bug chip solution > would be my pick of how to get it done. Cost wise it wold be hard to beat. > There are also cooled up approaches It may seem like prescalers are a simple fool proof technology, but actually they are far from it. I got educated 40 years ago when I designed the HP 5334B counter C channel. The 5334A used an HP made divide by 10 prescaler that cost $100. I replaced it with a $2 COTS divide by 16 prescaler. There was a production test for the 34A that used an HP8660 synthesized sig gen. I wanted to leverage this test for the 34B. The test IIRC involved driving the C channel with 1.3 GHz at the minimum specified sensitivity. But it called out using a mini-circuits 1 GHz high pass filter between the 8660 and the 5334A. What? Turns out that the wideband noise floor of the 8660 corrupted the measurement on the 34A, unless this filter was used. Also turned out that the 5334B with a completely different C channel had the same problem. OTOH, the 5316 did NOT have this problem. It used a different HP made prescaler than the 34A. What was different is that the 5316 prescaler had STATIC flip flops. Unfortunately, I don't know of any COTS static flip flops that are available. If the signal you are trying to measure is very clean, you can get good results just about any prescaler. You will need to arrange for the drive level to be in the "sweet spot" for that prescaler. Otherwise, all bets are off. Getting a prescaler that works over a wide dynamic range is whole 'nother discussion. Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: Frequency Counter business
Hi I still have a 524 with a 500 MHz plugin sitting in one of my sheds. I used to keep a fairly large house fan aimed at the critter to keep it from tripping its Klixon thermal overload switch. A they were the days indeed. Bob KE6F -Original Message- From: Dave Mallery To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Mon, Jan 21, 2019 8:02 pm Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP Stories: Frequency Counter business in high school, i had a summer job at the NYU EE dept up in the Bronx campus (where my dad taught english!) this was the summer of 1956 and 57. in the lab equipment issuing room there lived a 524 with the vertical neon lites. along with a plethora of other now ancient equipment. long ago in a galaxy far away... 73 dave mallery On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 5:04 PM Don wrote: > http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1951-01.pdf > On Mon, 2019-01-21 at 14:15 -0500, Gordon Batey wrote: > > Greetings to all, > > > > I believe that was the HP 525 counter. I had one as my first > > counter > > which I picked up surplus many years ago. It had several plug-ins > > for > > different > > frequency ranges. Kept the basement warm in the winter time. The > > vhf > > plugin was a heterodyne mixer as I recall. This unit ontained MANY > > tubes > > and a > > fairly large fan to remove the heat. I gave it to another ham > > several years > > ago. > > > > > > I really enjoy the HP stories. > > > > Gordon Batey > > WA4FJC > > > > > > > > Hi, > > I used an HP counter in 1961 that had these vertical strings of neon > > tubes > > behind numbers, and the two least significant decimals were read off > > two > > milliamp meters numbered 0 to 10. For each count the needles would > > point to > > the number to be read. The whole instrument was a 2 foot cube that > > sat on a > > trolley. > > After all this time I can not remember the model number. Our company > > repaired Air force instruments and recalibration of frequency > > ?meters? > > (calibrated heterodyne oscillators). > > Cheers, > > Neville Michie > > > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nut > > s_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dave Mallery, K5EN (ubuntu linux 18-10) 80018 Lobo CP Grants, NM 87020 linux counter #64628 (since 1997) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver
Hi Just purchased one of the 100 bux 10 MHz/1pps GPS units. Seems to fire up and lock ok, but wondering if anyone else has experience with these rascals. Bought mine from an Amazon source. I've got it hooked up to my HP Hi Rez counter (can't recall the model number) Have not had time to compare it to my Rubidium Scheme. Bob, KE6F -Original Message- From: Bob kb8tq To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sun, Jan 20, 2019 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver Hi From a *very* quick read of the doc’s: 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns resolution? 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS. 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if it is multi-band for the other systems. 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs. 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain. Again, all from a quick read …. Bob > On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims wrote: > > Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a board > ($219). The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2 data. > It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position support > along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy). Looks like the F9P has 1 time pulse > output. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
