Re: [time-nuts] 10811-Parts... (Using the thermal regulator circuitry)

[Club Internet]

Rick,
Thanks for this information. Actually the technology of C18 is not specified in 
the manual.
Why should it necessarily be « foil » type and metallized?
Is « foil » type same as « film » type?
Of course the « mass » needs to be there (=> 3D printing services)
Best
Gilles.

> Le 15 sept. 2019 à 04:43, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  a 
> écrit :
> 
> The 10811 oven loop is only barely stable.  It's stability
> is limited by the amount of capacitance that you can
> get in a cap of the size that will physically fit.  BTW, this
> cap must be of the foil type, not the metallized type.
> If you are building a knock off of the 10811 and you can
> fit in more microfarads, you can make the loop work better.
> In the 40 years since the 10811 was designed, AFAIK, there
> as been zero (0) progress with respect to the capacitance
> per cubic centimeter of foil capacitors.
> 
> Of course, the real solution is to use a PII^2D controller
> like the E1938A.
> 
> Also, if you are not using a 10811 oven mass, then all bets
> are off with respect to the oven design.  You'll be starting
> all over from t=0.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
>> On 9/14/2019 9:41 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts wrote:
>> Yes, I have more or less cloned the temperature regulation circuitryand used 
>> it for various heat control circuitry using other/similarsemiconductors that 
>> can handle elevated temperatures.
>> The basic principle is nothing exotic. It can be found inmany applications 
>> all over the internet.
>> What is important is that the feed-backto the thermistor bridge (R+C) is 
>> selected for a proper timeconstant so that the regulation does not thermally 
>> oscillate.
>> The thermal delay between the mechanics/heat dissipatingcomponents and the 
>> isolation resistance between the thermistorand chassis is also important.
>> All the best
>> Ulf KylenfallSM6GXV
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Re: [time-nuts] Hp10811 parts ref

[Club-Internet Clemgill]

Charles, 
Thank you for this very useful information ! 
My plan is to « clone » as close as possible the initial 10811 design, as it is 
well proven. 
Except changing the crystal and possibly use modern components if they bring 
any improvement, and adapting the « mass » to the crystal format and 
manufacturing it through 3D printing. 
Did anybody tried something similar ? 
Best, 
Gilles. 



> Le 11 sept. 2019 à 22:05, Charles Steinmetz  a écrit :
> 
> Didier wrote:
> 
>> The LM208 is a single op-amp with low offset (<3mV) and low bias current.
> 
> Even 3mV offset is verging on horrible for a "precision" opamp these days -- 
> it's hard to find any respectable opamp that doesn't do lots better.
> 
> The secret sauce of the LMx08 series is the super-beta input pair, which 
> matches FET opamps for input current but also holds that low (room-temp) 
> input current over the full temperature range (the input current of FET 
> opamps generally rises by at least 10x to more than 1000x at warmer to hot 
> temperatures).
> 
> There is no need for extraordinary measures -- there are a number of more 
> modern opamps specifically designed to upgrade LMx08 sockets.  The OP77 is 
> one:
> 
> 
> 
> The LT1012 and OP97 are two more.  I've used both extensively, and finally 
> settled on the OP97 for this sort of application:
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Hp10811 parts ref

[Club Internet]

Luciano,
References of the manual is the following:
MANUAL PART NUMBER 10811-90002 Microfiche Part Number 10811-90003
Dated August 1980.

Thanks very much for your reply (indeed npn and Q6...!)
Looking for a replacement for UA208 (obsolete) hard to find, as well as LM208 
=> would NTE928 or ECG928 be ok ?

Best,
Gilles.

Envoyé de mon iPad

> Le 10 sept. 2019 à 20:29, "tim...@timeok.it"  a écrit :
> 
> 
>   Gilles,
> 
>   what manual you refer? (Part number)
> 
>   Heating transistor are NPN.TO220 similar to TIP120
> 
>   Driver is Q6 and NPN similar to 2N3904
> 
>   U1 is LM2904N
> 
>   U3 is uA208M
> 
>   Luciano
> 
> 
>   Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com
>   A time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>   Cc
>   Data Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:54:17 +0200
>   Oggetto [time-nuts] Hp10811 parts ref
>   Dear list,
>   Looking forward to apply the oven configuration of the 10811 oven 
> oscillator - that is working so well - could you please help me identifying 
> the appropriate references for the active parts :
>   Q7 and Q8 heating darligntons PNP
>   Q4 driving transistor PNP
>   U1 and U3 op amps
>   From the schematic on fig 8-15 on page 64 of the HP manual.
> 
>   Thx very much,
>   Gilles.
> 
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[time-nuts] HP53132a counter noise floor

[Club-Internet Clemgill]

Hi, 
I am testing my 53132a counter floor.
Connecting the 10Mhz rear output to Channel A, and reading ADEV with Timelab in 
frequency mode.
Attached picture shows first results.

We see log-log lines with a -0,5 slope, and a vertical spacing ratio consistent 
with (Tau0)^2
(Tau0 = actual gate time given by Timelab) 

I understand the 1/square(Tau) slope of the lines, as RMS resolution is 
enhanced with the length of samples
(And ADEV # RMS of fractional frequency in this configuration)
But I don’t understand the (Tau0)^2 spacing ? 

According to the counter manual, RMS resolution should be proportional to 
1/(Tau0  x square(Tau)) so not to 1/(Tau0^2)
I looked at literature, including Rubiola and many others but could not find 
the answer.

Any clue ? 
Best, 
Gilles

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 stabilizing time

[Club Internet]

Hi,
Thanks for the info.
I did’nt find how to find you paper in ko4bb.com
Thanks for pointing.
Best,
Gilles.

Envoyé de mon iPad

> Le 23 juil. 2019 à 13:01, Charles Steinmetz  a écrit :
> 
> Rick wrote:
> 
>> Basically, no counter that we ever made AFAIK had
>> any provision for EFC.
> 
> The later HP5328 "oscillator helper" boards have EFC pots for fine tuning the 
> timebase frequency.  This includes the US military versions that are so 
> prevalent in the US.  I have schematics showing this with both the 10544 
> (support board 05328-60027) and 10811 (support board 05328-60038) oscillators 
> (production shifted from the 10544 to the 10811 during the 5328's run).
> 
> These work fine, but one can easily build an EFC circuit with much better 
> drift characteristics (i.e., first-order temperature compensation).  I 
> published such a circuit some time ago and posted it to this list at least 
> once.  My circuit also reduces the EFC adjustment range to make it easier to 
> adjust precisely.
> 
> That circuit is on Didier's site (ko4bb.com).  Search for a doc named "HP 
> 10544 10811 EFC fine adjustment.pdf".
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] High accuracy temp controller ckt

[Club Internet]

And if you are not in a well air conditioned room
Gilles.

Envoyé de mon iPad

> Le 12 juil. 2019 à 18:12, Javier Herrero  a écrit :
> 
> Hello,
> 
> A TEC is good if you want to maintain the resistors at 25ºC, that seems the 
> zero TC point for some precision low TCR resistors (for example, the Vishay 
> VFCP or VSMP series)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Javier
> 
>> On 12/7/19 10:06, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 at 08:07, Bernd Neubig  wrote:
>>> 
>>> AXTAL has a miniature oven for heating precision resistors or other
>>> components to a constant temperature. It is housed in a small DIP8 package.
>>> See attached AXR135 data sheet.
>>> Optionally this device can be offered unsealed, ready for inserting the
>>> component by yourself
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> Bernd
>> 
>> The resistors I am using are made by Caddock, are 1 M ohm & 10 M ohm, 0.01%
>> tolerance and 5 ppm / deg C. They are much too large to fit in a DIP8
>> package. A quick check with a ruler indicates that the 10 M ohm is 38 x 12
>> mm and the 1 M ohm is 19 x 10 mm.
>> 
>> A quick photograph shows this half finished project. Unfortunately, even
>> before I have finished it, I am wishing I had done a better job. However,
>> my original reason for doing this was to check the stability of a data
>> acquisition unit before sending it to Keysight. I think this will be good
>> enough for that, but I could certainly have done a job with some thought.
>> 
>> The thermocouple is just meant to be a temperature sensor that dissipates
>> no power. A thermistor or RTD buried in the polystyrene would have just got
>> hot. The resistors should not get hot, as the power dissipated will be
>> under 1 uW.
>> 
>> I also intend putting in a 100 M ohm resistor, but the specification of
>> that is much poorer (5%, 100 ppm/ deg C. )
>> 
>> I partially read the paper mentioned. I note that the authors used a thermo
>> electric cooler (TEC) as they wanted get low temperatures. I assume that
>> for crystals or resistors dissipating little heat, a TEC would be
>> unnecessary, and just a resistor acting as a heater would be fine. But will
>> read some of the references. Obviously for controlling a crystal
>> oscillator, or my resistor, stability is most important, whereas for the
>> authors of the paper, stability was not their major concern.
>> 
>>> --
>> Dr. David Kirkby,
>> 
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> 
> -- 
> -
> Javier Herrero
> Chief Technology Officer   EMAIL: 
> jherr...@hvsistemas.com
> HV Sistemas S.L.   PHONE: +34 949 336 
> 806
> Teide 4, Núcleo 1 Of. 0.1  FAX:   +34 949 336 
> 792
> 28703 San Sebastián de los Reyes - Madrid - Spain  WEB: 
> http://www.hvsistemas.com
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] TIC Characterization

[Club-Internet Clemgill]

Thanks Tom for your quick and extensive reply. 
Indeed I confused Time Interval with Phase Difference… 

Corrected calc: 
4/ [(Xi+2 - Xi+1) - (Xi+1 - Xi)]^2 = [(To + Ti+2) - 2(To + Ti+1) + (To + Ti)]^2 
= [Ti+2 - 2Ti+1 + Ti]^2 
=  (Ti+2)^2 + 4(Ti+1)^2 + (Ti)^2 + 2(-2Ti+2*Ti+1 + Ti+2*Ti - 2Ti+1*Ti)

5/ <(Ti+1)^2> # <(Ti+1)^2> #  < (Ti)^2> for large samples and  
<(Ti+a * Ti+b)> = 0 as Ti+1 and Ti are independent
Then AVAR =  (1/2Tau^2) * 6 < (Ti)^2>  = (1/Tau^2) * 6  * SigmaTIC^2

6/ Hence ADEV = sqrt(3) * SigmaTIC / Tau

So ADEV(Tau=1)  = 1.73 * SigmaTIC (indeed…)

By the way, it also seems that HDEV at Tau=1 is  2/sqrt(3) * Sigma = 1.15 
SigmaTIC

Best, 
Gilles.

 


> Le 30 déc. 2018 à 07:14, Tom Van Baak  a écrit :
> 
> Hi Gilles,
> 
> Correct, the log-log slope will be -1.
> 
> But I'm not sure about your ADEV and SigmaTIC claim.
> 
> Assume the 53132A has 150 ps RMS resolution. The standard deviation is also 
> 150 ps. The Allan deviation at tau=1 would be 1.73 * 150 ps/s or 2.60e-10.
> 
> Look at calc_adev() in http://leapsecond.com/tools/adev_lib.c and note the 
> three data[] terms. With multiple uncorrelated terms you simply sum the 
> variances. There are three terms so that's 3 * stdev. When you convert AVAR 
> to ADEV the 3 becomes sqrt(3), or 1.73. Make sense?
> 
> For extra credit, note that MDEV at tau=1 is the same as ADEV. However, TDEV 
> at tau=1 is 1.50e-10, the same as stdev. In the same file, see that the 
> sqrt(3) factor is removed in calc_tdev().
> 
> 
> 
> The best and largest pile of ADEV documentation is:
> 
> "information about frequency stability analysis"
> http://www.wriley.com/Freq%20Stab%20Analy%20Links.htm
> 
> There is also a wikipedia page:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance
> 
> For simpler introductions see:
> 
> "Analysis of Time Domain Data"
> https://tf.nist.gov/phase/Properties/four.htm
> 
> "Clock Performance and Performance Measures"
> https://tycho.usno.navy.mil/mclocks2.html
> 
> "Fundamentals of Time and Frequency"
> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1498.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to play with ADEV check out Stable32 [1] or TimeLab [2]. Both are 
> highly recommended and are also free. For questions like yours the Stable32 
> noise generator feature is very useful to explore the shape(s) of ADEV for 
> given noise types. It was used to create:
> 
> "Exploring Allan Deviation"
> http://leapsecond.com/pages/allan/Exploring_Allan_Deviation_v2.pdf
> 
> /tvb
> 
> [1] http://www.stable32.com/
> [2] http://www.ke5fx.com/timelab/readme.htm
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Club-Internet Clemgill" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 2:28 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] TIC Characterization
> 
> 
>> Hi, 
>> Looking to testing my HP53132A in TIC mode. 
>> I considered the Time Interval measurement technique: 
>> The start channel is connected to a 1 PPS signal, and to the stop channel 
>> though a coax cable (constant delay line).
>> I found some references on the web, but no one with the associated maths.
>> So I tried the following :
>> 
>> 1/ AVAR  =  (1/2*Tau^2) * < [(Xi+2 - Xi+1) - (Xi+1 - Xi)]^2 >
>> with (Xi+1 - Xi) = phase difference = time interval 
>> 
>> 2/ Phase difference = To + Ti 
>> where To is the constant delay between start and stop (coax line)
>> and Ti is the counter's resolution at time i
>> 
>> 3/ Assuming that Ti is a Central Gaussian distribution then:
>> mean = < Ti > = 0 and variance = < Ti ^2> = SigmaTIC^2
>> 
>> 4/ [(Xi+2 - Xi+1) - (Xi+1 - Xi)]^2 = [(To + Ti+1) - (To + Ti)]^2 = (Ti+1 - 
>> Ti)^2 
>> =  (Ti+1)^2 + (Ti)^2 - 2(Ti+1 * Ti)
>> 
>> 5/ <(Ti+1)^2> #  < (Ti)^2> for large samples and 
>> <2(Ti+1 * Ti)> = 0 because Ti+1 and Ti are independent
>> Then AVAR =  (1/2Tau^2) * 2< (Ti)^2>  = (1/Tau^2) * SigmaTIC^2
>> 
>> 6/ Hence ADEV = SigmaTIC / Tau
>> 
>> So ADEV (log log) is a straight line with -1 slope
>> And ADEV(Tau=1) provides the standard deviation = SigmaTIC  of the Time 
>> Interval Counter's resolution 
>> 
>> Is this right ? 
>> Thanks to point me at related articles or web pages if you know any.
>> 
>> Gilles. 
>> 
>> 
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[time-nuts] TIC Characterization

[Club-Internet Clemgill]

Hi, 
Looking to testing my HP53132A in TIC mode. 
I considered the Time Interval measurement technique: 
The start channel is connected to a 1 PPS signal, and to the stop channel 
though a coax cable (constant delay line).
I found some references on the web, but no one with the associated maths.
So I tried the following :

1/ AVAR  =  (1/2*Tau^2) * < [(Xi+2 - Xi+1) - (Xi+1 - Xi)]^2 >
with (Xi+1 - Xi) = phase difference = time interval 

2/ Phase difference = To + Ti 
where To is the constant delay between start and stop (coax line)
and Ti is the counter's resolution at time i

3/ Assuming that Ti is a Central Gaussian distribution then:
mean = < Ti > = 0 and variance = < Ti ^2> = SigmaTIC^2

4/ [(Xi+2 - Xi+1) - (Xi+1 - Xi)]^2 = [(To + Ti+1) - (To + Ti)]^2 = (Ti+1 - 
Ti)^2 
=  (Ti+1)^2 + (Ti)^2 - 2(Ti+1 * Ti)

5/ <(Ti+1)^2> #  < (Ti)^2> for large samples and 
<2(Ti+1 * Ti)> = 0 because Ti+1 and Ti are independent
Then AVAR =  (1/2Tau^2) * 2< (Ti)^2>  = (1/Tau^2) * SigmaTIC^2

6/ Hence ADEV = SigmaTIC / Tau

So ADEV (log log) is a straight line with -1 slope
And ADEV(Tau=1) provides the standard deviation = SigmaTIC  of the Time 
Interval Counter's resolution 

Is this right ? 
Thanks to point me at related articles or web pages if you know any.

Gilles. 


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Re: [time-nuts] new WWVB BPSK dev board

[Club-Internet Clemgill]

Hi, 
The Allouis phase modulation is as follows : 
- sawtooth phase shift of the 162kHz carrier with 40rad/sec slope => +/- 1 rad 
shift => +/- 6,36Hz carrier frequency shift 
- sequence of full sawtooth periods of length 100msec => frequency 10Hz
- one full period sawtooth codes a « 0 » bit
- two full periods sawtooth code a « 1 » bit
- One bit only is coded per second in each minute =>  59 bits available 
because...
- 59th second is silent (no phase modulation)

Gilles. 

> Le 5 déc. 2018 à 16:27, Poul-Henning Kamp  a écrit :
> 
> 
> In message , Magnus 
> D
> anielson writes:
> 
>> Looking at it using a Kiwi receiver just north of Stockholm, it comes in
>> nice and clean with 100 Hz sidebands from what looks like a PM whose 4th
>> sideband is nearly suppressed, so is 8th, 12/13, 21... so slightly more
>> that 4th and multiples.
> 
> It looks like both 162 and 198 has gotten more modulation after
> Loran-C disappeared, and I wonder if submarines are involved ?
> 
>> The Loran-C/Chayka plug-in does not calculate position, so already there
>> would be some fun little mini-project to attempt.
> 
> If only there were some Loran-C stations left :-)
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Programmable clock for BFO use....noise

[Club-Internet Clemgill]

Hi Attila, 
Very interesting, thanks.  
I found ref (2) by seems that need to pay or be to registered as a researcher 
to get ref (1). 
Is there a easier way to get a copy ? 
Thx,
Gilles. 

> Le 15 sept. 2018 à 12:26, Attila Kinali  a écrit :
> 
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 21:42:05 +
> Bryan _  wrote:
> 
>> I would be interested in hearing more of the more suitable classes of
>> logic chips. I have a 20Mhz rubidium that I wanted to divide down to 10Mhz
> 
> Any logic family works, as long as it is fast enough to handle your
> input frequency. Due to the non-linear (aka digital) behaviour
> of a D-Flipflop style divider, it is recommended to use the slowest
> possible logic family for the task. Otherwise the harmonics of the
> switching of the FF will down-mix high frequency white noise down
> to the signal band (this is the reason for the 10*log(N) noise scaling
> of digital divider that Egan[1] and Calosso/Rubiola[2] and a few others 
> mentioned).
> 
> As a rule of thumb, I'd say that the FF should not be more than 10 to 20
> times faster than the input frequency, to limit noise down-mixing.
> If your FF is too fast or you want to reduce the noise floor, capacitively
> loading and/or having some additional resistance in the Vcc and GND lines
> will help slow it down. But ensure that the resistance is still low enough
> that the FF's supply stays within specs at all time. Similarly, the
> capacitive loading should be low enough that the output current is within
> reasonable bounds.
> 
> Alternatively, using the Λ-divider approach[2] and introducing voltage
> steps between 0 and 1 will also reduce down-mixing.
> 
> If you divide by something that is not a power of 2, then it is important
> that each stage produces an output waveform with a 50% duty cycle. Otherwise
> flicker noise which has been up-mixed by a previous stage, will be down-mixed
> into the signal band, increasing the close-in phase-noise.
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> [1] "Modeling Phase Noise in Frequency Dividers," by Egan, 1990
> 
> [2] "The Sampling Theorem in Pi and Lambda Digital Frequency Dividers,"
> by Calosso and Rubiola 2013
> 
> -- 
>   The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
>throw DARK chocolate at you.
> 
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