Re: [time-nuts] Modern signal generators

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

YES 7851 I hope 
 
In a message dated 12/12/2018 3:43:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rich...@karlquist.com writes:

 
 FWIW, the HMC832 has FOM of -226. The best synth on a chip
now available AFAIK has FOM of -236. That's 10 dB better.

Rick N6RK

On 12/12/2018 10:46 AM, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts wrote:
> I did some phase noise measurement and the 8751 is much better then the rest 
> on the market
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 12, 2018, at 1:20 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Just to save others the time digging, the 7851 uses a HMC832 VCO + 
>> fractional N PLL on a chip as
>> the heart of its synthesizer. Yet another “way to go” if building a quick 
>> and simple signal source.
>>
>> ===
>>
>> No argument at all about other parts of the radio having their limits. PA 
>> performance certainly is one
>> of those areas.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> My feeling is
>>> A Because of the low sunspot cycle the large signal performance of the RX 
>>> is less a topic, the ICOM 7851 dynamic range, synthesizer and frequency 
>>> concept is winning but expensive
>>> B The power amplifier from 100 W to 1500 Watt need to be catching up to the 
>>> old Collins tube Amps with negative feedback, producing - 45 dB or better 
>>> IMD products.
>>>
>>> The military amplifier are fast on , reliable , durable and expensive... 
>>> initially.
>>>
>>> The noisy blower may be a bad thing.
>>>
>>> I “only “ run 1 KW, and I am happy with it
>>>
>>> 73 de N1UL
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
 On Dec 12, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

 Hi

 Usually on HF, the issue is large signal rejection. Phase noise very 
 definitely
 gets into that part of things. Other components in the signal chain do as 
 well.
 Once the synthesizer is no longer the weak link in the chain, spending more
 to improve it (vs spending on the other components) probably does not make
 a lot of sense. Since the synthesizer is *far* from ideal, that sort of 
 begs the
 question of just how troublesome the other parts are and how much better a
 device *could* be built.

 This does seem to be wandering a bit from a Time related topic …..

 It does illustrate the point that “good enough” may be way far away from
 “pretty good” and yet even more distant from “as good as it gets”. The
 question on any system is always “how good do you need / what are you
 doing?” ….

 Bob

> On Dec 12, 2018, at 8:49 AM, jimlux  wrote:
>
> On 12/11/18 3:26 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> As I said, just how rational using these parts in a radio …. not at all 
>> clear to me.
>> Back when I went to school, stuff that was this noisy was not in the 
>> “greatest” category.
>> That was a *very* long time ago.
>> Oddly enough best performance synthesizers have gotten better. (as the 
>> posted
>> presentations very clearly show). Just why a “high end” radio uses a 
>> less than
>> ideal synthesizer likely relates more to cost (even at a price of 
>> thousands of dollars)
>> than to anything else.
>
> Or "good enough" performance - driving to a 3 dB NF for a HF receiver 
> while maintaining good strong signal performance is probably not worth it
>
>
>> Indeed cost also drives things like GPSDO’s and GPS modules. We often 
>> are not
>> very eager to acknowledge that fact.
>> Bob
>
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>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern signal generators

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

That is almost true, depending on the PhFreq. discriminator 
 
In a message dated 12/12/2018 3:56:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rich...@karlquist.com writes:

 
 The TI/NationalSemiconductor LMX2594 and LMX2595 have the best
phase noise floor FOM at -236.

The AnalogDevices/LinearTechnology LTC6952 has the best flicker at -281.
It requires an external VCO. The LTC6951 with an on board VCO is
almost as good.

Although these are state of the air for a synthesizer-on-a-chip,
it is easy to beat them if you roll your own with a mixer as
a phase detector.

Rick N6RK

On 12/12/2018 12:44 PM, Ulrich Rohde wrote:
> Who makes it ?
> 
> In a message dated 12/12/2018 3:43:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> rich...@karlquist.com writes:
> 
> FWIW, the HMC832 has FOM of -226. The best synth on a chip
> now available AFAIK has FOM of -236. That's 10 dB better.
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
> On 12/12/2018 10:46 AM, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts wrote:
> > I did some phase noise measurement and the 8751 is much better then the 
> > rest on the market
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > 
> >> On Dec 12, 2018, at 1:20 PM, Bob kb8tq  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Just to save others the time digging, the 7851 uses a HMC832 VCO + 
> >> fractional N PLL on a chip as
> >> the heart of its synthesizer. Yet another “way to go” if building a quick 
> >> and simple signal source.
> >>
> >> ===
> >>
> >> No argument at all about other parts of the radio having their limits. PA 
> >> performance certainly is one
> >> of those areas.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Dec 12, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts 
> >>> mailto:n...@lists.febo.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> My feeling is
> >>> A Because of the low sunspot cycle the large signal performance of the RX 
> >>> is less a topic, the ICOM 7851 dynamic range, synthesizer and frequency 
> >>> concept is winning but expensive
> >>> B The power amplifier from 100 W to 1500 Watt need to be catching up to 
> >>> the old Collins tube Amps with negative feedback, producing - 45 dB or 
> >>> better IMD products.
> >>>
> >>> The military amplifier are fast on , reliable , durable and expensive... 
> >>> initially.
> >>>
> >>> The noisy blower may be a bad thing.
> >>>
> >>> I “only “ run 1 KW, and I am happy with it
> >>>
> >>> 73 de N1UL
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
>  On Dec 12, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Bob kb8tq   > wrote:
> 
>  Hi
> 
>  Usually on HF, the issue is large signal rejection. Phase noise very 
>  definitely
>  gets into that part of things. Other components in the signal chain do 
>  as well.
>  Once the synthesizer is no longer the weak link in the chain, spending 
>  more
>  to improve it (vs spending on the other components) probably does not 
>  make
>  a lot of sense. Since the synthesizer is *far* from ideal, that sort of 
>  begs the
>  question of just how troublesome the other parts are and how much better 
>  a
>  device *could* be built.
> 
>  This does seem to be wandering a bit from a Time related topic …..
> 
>  It does illustrate the point that “good enough” may be way far away from
>  “pretty good” and yet even more distant from “as good as it gets”. The
>  question on any system is always “how good do you need / what are you
>  doing?” ….
> 
>  Bob
> 
> > On Dec 12, 2018, at 8:49 AM, jimlux  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 12/11/18 3:26 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> >> Hi
> >> As I said, just how rational using these parts in a radio …. not at 
> >> all clear to me.
> >> Back when I went to school, stuff that was this noisy was not in the 
> >> “greatest” category.
> >> That was a *very* long time ago.
> >> Oddly enough best performance synthesizers have gotten better. (as the 
> >> posted
> >> presentations very clearly show). Just why a “high end” radio uses a 
> >> less than
> >> ideal synthesizer likely relates more to cost (even at a price of 
> >> thousands of dollars)
> >> than to anything else.
> >
> > Or "good enough" performance - driving to a 3 dB NF for a HF receiver 
> > while maintaining good strong signal performance is probably not worth 
> > it
> >
> >
> >> Indeed cost also drives things like GPSDO’s and GPS modules. We often 
> >> are not
> >> very eager to acknowledge that fact.
> >> Bob
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
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>  
>  To unsubscr

Re: [time-nuts] Modern signal generators

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

Who makes it ?
 
In a message dated 12/12/2018 3:43:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rich...@karlquist.com writes:

 
 FWIW, the HMC832 has FOM of -226. The best synth on a chip
now available AFAIK has FOM of -236. That's 10 dB better.

Rick N6RK

On 12/12/2018 10:46 AM, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts wrote:
> I did some phase noise measurement and the 8751 is much better then the rest 
> on the market
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 12, 2018, at 1:20 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Just to save others the time digging, the 7851 uses a HMC832 VCO + 
>> fractional N PLL on a chip as
>> the heart of its synthesizer. Yet another “way to go” if building a quick 
>> and simple signal source.
>>
>> ===
>>
>> No argument at all about other parts of the radio having their limits. PA 
>> performance certainly is one
>> of those areas.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> My feeling is
>>> A Because of the low sunspot cycle the large signal performance of the RX 
>>> is less a topic, the ICOM 7851 dynamic range, synthesizer and frequency 
>>> concept is winning but expensive
>>> B The power amplifier from 100 W to 1500 Watt need to be catching up to the 
>>> old Collins tube Amps with negative feedback, producing - 45 dB or better 
>>> IMD products.
>>>
>>> The military amplifier are fast on , reliable , durable and expensive... 
>>> initially.
>>>
>>> The noisy blower may be a bad thing.
>>>
>>> I “only “ run 1 KW, and I am happy with it
>>>
>>> 73 de N1UL
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
 On Dec 12, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

 Hi

 Usually on HF, the issue is large signal rejection. Phase noise very 
 definitely
 gets into that part of things. Other components in the signal chain do as 
 well.
 Once the synthesizer is no longer the weak link in the chain, spending more
 to improve it (vs spending on the other components) probably does not make
 a lot of sense. Since the synthesizer is *far* from ideal, that sort of 
 begs the
 question of just how troublesome the other parts are and how much better a
 device *could* be built.

 This does seem to be wandering a bit from a Time related topic …..

 It does illustrate the point that “good enough” may be way far away from
 “pretty good” and yet even more distant from “as good as it gets”. The
 question on any system is always “how good do you need / what are you
 doing?” ….

 Bob

> On Dec 12, 2018, at 8:49 AM, jimlux  wrote:
>
> On 12/11/18 3:26 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> As I said, just how rational using these parts in a radio …. not at all 
>> clear to me.
>> Back when I went to school, stuff that was this noisy was not in the 
>> “greatest” category.
>> That was a *very* long time ago.
>> Oddly enough best performance synthesizers have gotten better. (as the 
>> posted
>> presentations very clearly show). Just why a “high end” radio uses a 
>> less than
>> ideal synthesizer likely relates more to cost (even at a price of 
>> thousands of dollars)
>> than to anything else.
>
> Or "good enough" performance - driving to a 3 dB NF for a HF receiver 
> while maintaining good strong signal performance is probably not worth it
>
>
>> Indeed cost also drives things like GPSDO’s and GPS modules. We often 
>> are not
>> very eager to acknowledge that fact.
>> Bob
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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>>>
>>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Modern signal generators

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

yes 
 
In a message dated 12/11/2018 5:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
k8yumdoo...@gmail.com writes:

 
 Ulrich,

Is it OK for us to forward the URL for your "Noise" paper to others
outside the time-nuts group?

Thanks,

Dana K8YUM


On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 9:24 AM Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

>
> https://badw.de/fileadmin/members/R/3685/6_4_18_UNI_BW_June18-safe.pdf
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[time-nuts] Modern signal generators

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

 
https://badw.de/fileadmin/members/R/3685/6_4_18_UNI_BW_June18-safe.pdf
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Re: [time-nuts] Noise in linear and non-linear circuits and systems

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

Update :
 
https://badw.de/fileadmin/members/R/3685/Optoelectronic_Oscillators.pdf
 
73 de Ulrich 
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[time-nuts] Noise in linear and non-linear circuits and systems

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

This may be of interest ...
 
https://www-docs.b-tu.de/ag-hochfrequenztechnik/public/rohde/rohde2011ULR_MUNICH_PRESENTATION.pdf
 
 
Ulrich 
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[time-nuts] Ovenaire reference 0960-0477

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

Can  anyone help with a schematic , data sheet and measured data ?
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
I
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Re: [time-nuts] Naked 4046 PLL chip

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

That is a different better beast !
 
In a message dated 7/22/2018 1:45:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
msimon6...@yahoo.com writes:

 
The 9046 handles ant-backlash
 
https://assets.nexperia.com/documents/data-sheet/74HCT9046A.pdf
 
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a 
profit. 

I like Polywell Fusion.

 
 
On Saturday, July 21, 2018, 4:54:28 PM UTC, Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts 
 wrote:
 
 
NO
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/21/2018 12:51:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
k8yumdoo...@gmail.com writes:

 
 Did the original '4046 include the anti-backlash fix? Dana On Saturday, July 
21, 2018, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: 
> Obsolet by today’s standard > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 21, 2018, at 
10:44 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  > wrote: > > > > Clearly not 
your average chip: > > > > https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-CD4046BE-CMOS-PLL- 
> Oscillator-VCO-zener > > > > -- > > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 
3.20 > > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > > FreeBSD committer | BSD 
since 4.3-tahoe > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained 
by > incompetence. > > > > ___ > > 
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and 
follow the instructions there. > > > 
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Re: [time-nuts] Naked 4046 PLL chip

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

NO
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/21/2018 12:51:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
k8yumdoo...@gmail.com writes:

 
 Did the original '4046 include the anti-backlash fix? Dana On Saturday, July 
21, 2018, Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: 
> Obsolet by today’s standard > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 21, 2018, at 
10:44 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  > wrote: > > > > Clearly not 
your average chip: > > > > https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-CD4046BE-CMOS-PLL- 
> Oscillator-VCO-zener > > > > -- > > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 
3.20 > > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > > FreeBSD committer | BSD 
since 4.3-tahoe > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained 
by > incompetence. > > > > ___ > > 
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and 
follow the instructions there. > > > 
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Re: [time-nuts] SSB Test in NJ

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

 
I am at Upper Saddle River NJ, for some military manpack testing .
 
Should go either 7.177 plus minus or 5346 60m , can you transmit there ?
 
 
 
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61347375
 
73 de Ulrich N1UL
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/7/2018 4:53:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
olivawasi...@gmail.com writes:

 
 On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 15:35:30 -0400, you wrote:

>Who can help me with an antenna test ?

Depending on what distance you want; I'm outside Albany, NY.
Band/freq/time?


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