Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver?
Hi. Usually on a crowded band, to be nice to the RF neighbours (often ourselves!) Irrespective of the "mode" used, and/or getting the "best" performance (small signal sensitivity) from a receiver. Also, when multiplying/mixing up to microwave frequencies, again for a clean signal. The OP wanted to use it as an external reference signal for a Kenwood radio (from memory.) But how much of it's existing phase noise signature is from the "reference", and how much from the other PLL's and synthesizers it has internally may make what a Time Nut might regard as a noisy external reference perfectly OK to use. It's something that does interest a lot of people (especially VHF and up DX'ers) where some popular makes of rig are very much worse than others! However, few have the kit needed to make definitive "measurements", or the ability to understand them "in the real world". (Me included!) 73 & HNY Dave B (G0WBX) On 02/01/2019 04:03, time-nuts-requ...@lists.febo.com wrote: > I wonder if some of the amateur modes also have > that need? -- Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software. :: ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver?
There are no detectable spurs on this plot within 100kHz from the carrier. I have spent a lot of effort trying to get rid of the spurs while maintaining low phase noise. Here is how it looked before the spur war http://www.leobodnar.com/files/miniGPS%20clock%20-%20old%20design.png Leo > From: "Chris Caudle" > On Wed, January 2, 2019 4:15 am, Leo Bodnar wrote: >> Here is the phase noise at 10MHz >> http://www.leobodnar.com/files/mini%20GPS%20clock%20-%20phase%20noise%2010MHz.png > Does that plot have enough resolution to show any narrow band spurs? That > looks really clean for a programmable clock source. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
01/01/2019 14:22 Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. mailto: ch...@chriswilson.tv ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
I don't know about the 3325B but the limited specs available don't give me hope. They state -60dBc for a 30 kHz band around the carrier, excluding +/- 1 Hz about the carrier with option 001, but don't state how that noise is distributed. Leo Bodnar's GPSDOs do provide good enough phase noise output. I'l let him provide recent data if he wishes. You could feed it similarly to how I feed an external frequency to my Perseus SDR, documented on my web pages. Regards, Mark W7MLG On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:24 AM Chris Wilson wrote: > > > 01/01/2019 14:22 > > Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined > 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver > that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ > gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair > it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to > achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks > > https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ > > http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html > > -- >Best Regards, >Chris Wilson. > mailto: ch...@chriswilson.tv > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
Hi Chris: The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise that was needed for testing pagers. See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message 01/01/2019 14:22 Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the EEVBlog? Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Chris: The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise that was needed for testing pagers. See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message 01/01/2019 14:22 Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html -- Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
I have done a study of how good it needs to be on my website: https://sites.google.com/site/markstcxomeasurements/ Regards, Mark On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 2:34 PM Artek Manuals wrote: > The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off > topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this > application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia > area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B > may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical > matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a > possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the > EEVBlog? > > Dave > manu...@artekmanuals.com > > > On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: > > Hi Chris: > > > > The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise > > that was needed for testing pagers. > > See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: > > https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml > > > > -- > > Have Fun, > > > > Brooke Clarke > > https://www.PRC68.com > > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html > > axioms: > > 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be > > limited by how well you understand how it works. > > 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. > > > > Original Message > >> > >>01/01/2019 14:22 > >> > >> Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined > >> 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver > >> that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ > >> gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair > >> it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to > >> achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks > >> > >> https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ > >> > >> http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html > >> > > -- > Dave > manu...@artekmanuals.com > www.ArtekManuals.com > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
Hi Mark: It's not clear to me why pager testing requires such good phase noise. I wonder if some of the amateur modes also have that need? Maybe WSPR? https://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke, N6GCE https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message I have done a study of how good it needs to be on my website: https://sites.google.com/site/markstcxomeasurements/ Regards, Mark On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 2:34 PM Artek Manuals wrote: The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the EEVBlog? Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Chris: The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise that was needed for testing pagers. See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message 01/01/2019 14:22 Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html -- Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
I was doing some DR3 testing of receivers fitted with additional crystal filtering and at the time wanted to find a sig gen that was as clean as the pair of xtal oscillators which were the baseline. Of course I never found anything that clean (at least not without spending a fortune) but do remember the 3325B was exceptionally clean close in. The tradeoff of that as a source is that the noise floor does not roll off nearly as fast as something like an 8657b. It lacks spurs close to the fundamental which are found in all the HP stuff of the age at least until you get to the 864x stuff. The answer, as others mentioned, depends on what you are really trying to do with that rig though. If you want a quick LO source then I would bet you will have a hard time showing the that rig's performance is suffering with the 3325B as the LO. At least not without some pretty specific test criteria setup (e.g. DR3 testing vs. a pure xtal source). 73/jeff/ac0c alpha-charlie-zero-charlie www.ac0c.com On 01-Jan-19 3:33 PM, Artek Manuals wrote: The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the EEVBlog? Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Chris: The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise that was needed for testing pagers. See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message 01/01/2019 14:22 Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
Take a look at the plots at the bottom of this page. http://hpmemoryproject.org/technics/bench/3048/hp_sources_02.htm Note the 8642b vs the 3325B. The '42b has much lower ultimate noise far out but see how decent the 3325B is in comparison. HP really made great stuff back in the day!!! 73/jeff/ac0c alpha-charlie-zero-charlie www.ac0c.com On 01-Jan-19 5:32 PM, Jeff Blaine wrote: I was doing some DR3 testing of receivers fitted with additional crystal filtering and at the time wanted to find a sig gen that was as clean as the pair of xtal oscillators which were the baseline. Of course I never found anything that clean (at least not without spending a fortune) but do remember the 3325B was exceptionally clean close in. The tradeoff of that as a source is that the noise floor does not roll off nearly as fast as something like an 8657b. It lacks spurs close to the fundamental which are found in all the HP stuff of the age at least until you get to the 864x stuff. The answer, as others mentioned, depends on what you are really trying to do with that rig though. If you want a quick LO source then I would bet you will have a hard time showing the that rig's performance is suffering with the 3325B as the LO. At least not without some pretty specific test criteria setup (e.g. DR3 testing vs. a pure xtal source). 73/jeff/ac0c alpha-charlie-zero-charlie www.ac0c.com On 01-Jan-19 3:33 PM, Artek Manuals wrote: The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the EEVBlog? Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Chris: The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise that was needed for testing pagers. See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message 01/01/2019 14:22 Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
Hi Jeff: The key feature of the 3325 is the amplitude resolution. They are called out in the cal procedures for many instruments because of that and I don't think there's a modern replacement. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message I was doing some DR3 testing of receivers fitted with additional crystal filtering and at the time wanted to find a sig gen that was as clean as the pair of xtal oscillators which were the baseline. Of course I never found anything that clean (at least not without spending a fortune) but do remember the 3325B was exceptionally clean close in. The tradeoff of that as a source is that the noise floor does not roll off nearly as fast as something like an 8657b. It lacks spurs close to the fundamental which are found in all the HP stuff of the age at least until you get to the 864x stuff. The answer, as others mentioned, depends on what you are really trying to do with that rig though. If you want a quick LO source then I would bet you will have a hard time showing the that rig's performance is suffering with the 3325B as the LO. At least not without some pretty specific test criteria setup (e.g. DR3 testing vs. a pure xtal source). 73/jeff/ac0c alpha-charlie-zero-charlie www.ac0c.com On 01-Jan-19 3:33 PM, Artek Manuals wrote: The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the EEVBlog? Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Chris: The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise that was needed for testing pagers. See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message 01/01/2019 14:22 Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 4:40 PM Jeff Blaine wrote: > Take a look at the plots at the bottom of this page. > > http://hpmemoryproject.org/technics/bench/3048/hp_sources_02.htm > > Note the 8642b vs the 3325B. The '42b has much lower ultimate noise far > out but see how decent the 3325B is in comparison. HP really made great > stuff back in the day!!! > > Thanks for pointing out that page. My measurements of my 8642A looked better than that far out, but are pretty similar close in. Comparing the 3325B to my measurements of TCXOs and transmit Phase noise of the TS-590, I'm not sure it will be good enough far out to meet the 590's original performance. On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 4:29 PM Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Mark: > > It's not clear to me why pager testing requires such good phase noise. I > wonder if some of the amateur modes also have > that need? > Maybe WSPR? > https://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR > > The reason for good phase noise in amateur gear is if you operate in close proximity to another strong station while trying to receive a weak one. The phase noise will cause far out noise from the strong signal to overwhelm the weak one. There are lots of examples on the web, explained better than I could. Regards, Mark W7MLG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
The two-way radio (LMR/PMR) industry has always had very demanding requirements for RX adjacent channel rejection specifications. The limiting case for adj-ch rejection often comes down to the PN of the RX LO and the PN of a transmitter in the adj-ch. Some vendors sold sig gens targeted and built for this market and the required performance. -Brian, WA1ZMS > On Jan 1, 2019, at 6:29 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: > > Hi Mark: > > It's not clear to me why pager testing requires such good phase noise. I > wonder if some of the amateur modes also have that need? > Maybe WSPR? > https://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR > > -- > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke, N6GCE > https://www.PRC68.com > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html > axioms: > 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by > how well you understand how it works. > 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. > > Original Message >> I have done a study of how good it needs to be on my website: >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/markstcxomeasurements/ >> >> Regards, >> >> Mark >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 2:34 PM Artek Manuals >> wrote: >> >>> The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off >>> topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this >>> application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia >>> area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B >>> may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical >>> matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a >>> possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the >>> EEVBlog? >>> >>> Dave >>> manu...@artekmanuals.com >>> >>> On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Chris: The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise that was needed for testing pagers. See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message >01/01/2019 14:22 > > Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined > 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver > that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ > gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair > it but as they are noHi Mark: > > It's not clear to me why pager testing requires such good phase noise. I > wonder if some of the amateur modes also have that need? > Maybe WSPR? > https://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR > > -- > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke, N6GCE > https://www.PRC68.com > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html > axioms: > 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by > how well you understand how it works. > 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. > > Original Message >> I have done a study of how good it needs to be on my website: >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/markstcxomeasurements/ >> >> Regards, >> >> Mark >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 2:34 PM Artek Manuals >> wrote: >> >>> The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off >>> topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this >>> application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia >>> area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B >>> may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical >>> matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a >>> possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the >>> EEVBlog? >>> >>> Dave >>> manu...@artekmanuals.com >>> >>> On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Chris: The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise that was needed for testing pagers. See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. Original Message >01/01/2019 14:22 > > Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined > 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver > that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is t
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
On 1/1/19 4:05 PM, Mark Goldberg wrote: On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 4:40 PM Jeff Blaine wrote: Take a look at the plots at the bottom of this page. http://hpmemoryproject.org/technics/bench/3048/hp_sources_02.htm Note the 8642b vs the 3325B. The '42b has much lower ultimate noise far out but see how decent the 3325B is in comparison. HP really made great stuff back in the day!!! Thanks for pointing out that page. My measurements of my 8642A looked better than that far out, but are pretty similar close in. Comparing the 3325B to my measurements of TCXOs and transmit Phase noise of the TS-590, I'm not sure it will be good enough far out to meet the 590's original performance. The reason for good phase noise in amateur gear is if you operate in close proximity to another strong station while trying to receive a weak one. The phase noise will cause far out noise from the strong signal to overwhelm the weak one. There are lots of examples on the web, explained better than I could. Has someone measured the reciprocal mixing noise contribution from the TCXO - You've got measurements on the *output* of the transmitter using the various reference oscillators, and, of course, there's measurements on various bare oscillators and signal generators. I suppose that's the sort of thing you'd get with a "strong signal next to weak" receive test. But the original question was "how good does it have to be"... That is, what numerical performance is needed for an HF transceiver? For CW or SSB? for one of the digital modes like WSJT or PSK31 ? The propagation path itself has a fair amount of "phase noise" in the single digit Hz sort of bandwidth due to ionospheric effect, but you're looking a bit farther out as far as a undesired strong interfering signal rejection standpoint. Mark, your first set of plots show the output phase noise being the same, regardless of TCXO, from 100-1000 Hz, which is where I think you'd be concerned, even for CW. The CW signal itself is on the order of 100-200 Hz wide (depending on the keying waveform). So you'd not be as concerned about the 10 Hz out phase noise.. And of course, if the strong interfering signal you're trying to reject with good receiver performance has crummy Tx noise that's another problem. We see this all the time when folks try to use mass market design approaches for space flight. Your product may meet FCC requirements of being down 40dB or 60dB out of band/channel, but still be intolerable if you're radiating a carrier 1 mW (so your spurious emissions are at -60dBm), and we're trying to receive a signal at -150dBm in that adjacent band/channel. Example, 802.11, BT or 802.15 transmitter spurious outputs in the 7.15 GHz deepspace receive band, especially into the omni receive antenna used in safe mode. This was the whole problem with LightSquared (or whatever their name is now) - 10kW transmitters in a band adjacent to GPS L-band. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
Another option is to use an OCXO. You have to go pretty nuts to get a modern frequency agile gadget to beat the spectral purity of a decent oscillator. And here pretty nuts is probably an understatement. If you only need frequency stability, the OCXO is a solid option assuming you can get one with the proper freq. 73/jeff/ac0c alpha-charlie-zero-charlie www.ac0c.com On 01-Jan-19 6:05 PM, Mark Goldberg wrote: On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 4:40 PM Jeff Blaine wrote: Take a look at the plots at the bottom of this page. http://hpmemoryproject.org/technics/bench/3048/hp_sources_02.htm Note the 8642b vs the 3325B. The '42b has much lower ultimate noise far out but see how decent the 3325B is in comparison. HP really made great stuff back in the day!!! Thanks for pointing out that page. My measurements of my 8642A looked better than that far out, but are pretty similar close in. Comparing the 3325B to my measurements of TCXOs and transmit Phase noise of the TS-590, I'm not sure it will be good enough far out to meet the 590's original performance. On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 4:29 PM Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Mark: It's not clear to me why pager testing requires such good phase noise. I wonder if some of the amateur modes also have that need? Maybe WSPR? https://prc68.com/I/DRM.shtml#WSPR The reason for good phase noise in amateur gear is if you operate in close proximity to another strong station while trying to receive a weak one. The phase noise will cause far out noise from the strong signal to overwhelm the weak one. There are lots of examples on the web, explained better than I could. Regards, Mark W7MLG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 5:31 PM jimlux wrote: > Has someone measured the reciprocal mixing noise contribution from the > TCXO - You've got measurements on the *output* of the transmitter using > the various reference oscillators, and, of course, there's measurements > on various bare oscillators and signal generators. > > Rob Sherwood has measured many receivers at http://www.sherweng.com/table.html. I haven't been able to get together to try different TCXOs, but conventional receiver performance is largely due to the synthesizer design and the roofing filters. Andy, K3WYC's testing, linked on my page, with simulated CW signals found little difference when changing the TCXO in the receiver, but about 11 dB difference when the transmit TCXO was changed. You don't want the guy with the cheap TCXO transmitting a block over from you. That is a big reason people still buy the cheap ones. They don't affect me, just the other guy. > I suppose that's the sort of thing you'd get with a "strong signal next > to weak" receive test. > > But the original question was "how good does it have to be"... > > That is, what numerical performance is needed for an HF transceiver? For > CW or SSB? for one of the digital modes like WSJT or PSK31 ? > I can tell you that trying to use digital modes when there is someone with a bad SSB transceiver near you on field day is not fun. Better transmitters are always better, but how good it has to be depends on how it is used. I haven't really done quantitative testing. My goal was not to make it worse than the original manufacturer's performance. > > The propagation path itself has a fair amount of "phase noise" in the > single digit Hz sort of bandwidth due to ionospheric effect, but you're > looking a bit farther out as far as a undesired strong interfering > signal rejection standpoint. > > Mark, your first set of plots show the output phase noise being the > same, regardless of TCXO, from 100-1000 Hz, which is where I think you'd > be concerned, even for CW. The CW signal itself is on the order of > 100-200 Hz wide (depending on the keying waveform). So you'd not be as > concerned about the 10 Hz out phase noise.. > I expect you meant 10 kHz, and yes, the receiver filtering is good enough and the synthesizer bad enough such that the oscillator phase noise does not matter that much. It is largely only important for the transmitter, at least in this radio. > > And of course, if the strong interfering signal you're trying to reject > with good receiver performance has crummy Tx noise that's another problem. > > We see this all the time when folks try to use mass market design > approaches for space flight. Your product may meet FCC requirements of > being down 40dB or 60dB out of band/channel, but still be intolerable if > you're radiating a carrier 1 mW (so your spurious emissions are at > -60dBm), and we're trying to receive a signal at -150dBm in that > adjacent band/channel. Example, 802.11, BT or 802.15 transmitter > spurious outputs in the 7.15 GHz deepspace receive band, especially > into the omni receive antenna used in safe mode. > > This was the whole problem with LightSquared (or whatever their name is > now) - 10kW transmitters in a band adjacent to GPS L-band. > > Exactly the problem at field day or while working a DXPedition, where lots of radios are close together. Elecraft has some very good synthesizers and very low phase noise and they are used a lot in those situations. Of course for an SDR reciever, oscillator phase noise is way more important. On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:03 PM Jeff Blaine wrote: > Another option is to use an OCXO. You have to go pretty nuts to get a > modern frequency agile gadget to beat the spectral purity of a decent > oscillator. And here pretty nuts is probably an understatement. If you > only need frequency stability, the OCXO is a solid option assuming you > can get one with the proper freq. Yes, and for my measurements made with a Perseus SDR, I modified it to use an external Wenzel OCXO. The A/D noise floor now is the limiting factor. Regards, Mark W7MLG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
Here is the phase noise at 10MHz http://www.leobodnar.com/files/mini%20GPS%20clock%20-%20phase%20noise%2010MHz.png There will be overall noise increase of about 4dB at 15.6MHz Leo On 1 Jan 2019, at 17:00, time-nuts-requ...@lists.febo.com wrote: > From: Mark Goldberg > Leo Bodnar's GPSDOs do provide good enough phase noise output. > I'l let him provide recent data if he wishes. You could feed it similarly > to how I feed an external frequency to my Perseus SDR, documented on my web > pages. > On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:24 AM Chris Wilson wrote: >> Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined >> 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver >> that has a LO at 15.6 MHz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
Another option would be to phase lock the existing XO in the transceiver instead of "replacing" it. With a very narrow PLL bandwidth, you should not degrade the transceiver stock performance. Didier KO4BB On Wed, Jan 2, 2019, 4:17 AM Leo Bodnar Here is the phase noise at 10MHz > http://www.leobodnar.com/files/mini%20GPS%20clock%20-%20phase%20noise%2010MHz.png > There will be overall noise increase of about 4dB at 15.6MHz > Leo > > On 1 Jan 2019, at 17:00, time-nuts-requ...@lists.febo.com wrote: > > From: Mark Goldberg > > Leo Bodnar's GPSDOs do provide good enough phase noise output. > > I'l let him provide recent data if he wishes. You could feed it similarly > > to how I feed an external frequency to my Perseus SDR, documented on my > web pages. > > > On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:24 AM Chris Wilson > wrote: > >> Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined > >> 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver > >> that has a LO at 15.6 MHz > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
On Wed, January 2, 2019 4:15 am, Leo Bodnar wrote: > Here is the phase noise at 10MHz > http://www.leobodnar.com/files/mini%20GPS%20clock%20-%20phase%20noise%2010MHz.png Does that plot have enough resolution to show any narrow band spurs? That looks really clean for a programmable clock source. -- Chris Caudle ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?
Hello all Tuesday, January 1, 2019 Thanks very much for all the replies and the helpful links. I guess I should just try and see then! I much appreciate the trouble people have gone to explaining this although I do not have a full comprehension of measuring phase noise yet ;) Happy New Year! Best regards, Chrismailto:ch...@chriswilson.tv MG> I have done a study of how good it needs to be on my website: MG> https://sites.google.com/site/markstcxomeasurements/ MG> Regards, MG> Mark MG> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 2:34 PM Artek Manuals MG> wrote: >> The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off >> topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this >> application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia >> area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B >> may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical >> matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a >> possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the >> EEVBlog? >> >> Dave >> manu...@artekmanuals.com >> >> >> On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: >> > Hi Chris: >> > >> > The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise >> > that was needed for testing pagers. >> > See second table of SSB Phase Noise at: >> > https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml >> > >> > -- >> > Have Fun, >> > >> > Brooke Clarke >> > https://www.PRC68.com >> > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html >> > axioms: >> > 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be >> > limited by how well you understand how it works. >> > 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. >> > >> > Original Message >> >> >> >>01/01/2019 14:22 >> >> >> >> Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined >> >> 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver >> >> that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ >> >> gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair >> >> it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to >> >> achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks >> >> >> >> https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/ >> >> >> >> http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html >> >> >> >> -- >> Dave >> manu...@artekmanuals.com >> www.ArtekManuals.com >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> MG> ___ MG> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com MG> To unsubscribe, go to MG> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com MG> and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
