[time-nuts] Re: disciplning natural phenomena

[Skip Withrow]

There is also another disciplined geyser, the Lady Knox Geyser on the
north island in New Zealand.  Goes off every day at 10:15am.  It's
quite a sight just to watch the empty parking lot fill up with cars
and tour buses in about 20 minutes, then after the show everyone goes
on their way.
Regards,
Skip Withrow
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[time-nuts] Re: disciplning natural phenomena

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

Lux, Jim writes:

> Can one discipline a geyser to an external source?
>
>a) I assume there's some data somewhere on eruption timing - sure, Old 
>Faithful is quite regular, sufficiently that they can say "the next 
>eruption will occur at" and people will gather and watch it.

Last I heard, they "seeded" it by pouring some harmless household
chemical (soap?) into it ?  I was told that this also regularized the
size of each "performance".

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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[time-nuts] Re: disciplning natural phenomena

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Well, specific to Old Faithful ….

They look at the current eruption and rate it for height and duration. 
Based on that rating, they make a guess about the wait for the next 
one. Their guess is typically a +/- 10 minute sort of thing. Very much 
like predicting the weather. 

https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/geyser-activity.htm 


Bob

> On Apr 1, 2022, at 9:09 AM, Lux, Jim  wrote:
> 
> As I re-read Fleming's "You Only Live Twice" last night, which features a 
> geyser that is "regulated" by a valve of some sort I was intrigued by this 
> idea:
> 
> Can one discipline a geyser to an external source?
> 
> a) I assume there's some data somewhere on eruption timing - sure, Old 
> Faithful is quite regular, sufficiently that they can say "the next eruption 
> will occur at" and people will gather and watch it.  But what's the ADEV? As 
> a kid in the early 70s, I didn't think to ask this question, and neither 
> Allan nor Leeson seem to mention it in their papers from 1966.  There is a 
> lot of variation in timing performance of various geysers, though.  Old 
> Faithful *is* regular, and in a place where it's watchable.
> 
> b) Are periodic geysers actually regulatable ?- From the little I know about 
> how they work, I would think the eruption frequency depends on things like 
> the water temperature and flow. It's also possible that the valve in 
> Fleming's novel is purely fictional, because it serves as part of a plot 
> device at the end (much like closing off the safety valve on a boiler).
> 
> Or, are geysers an example of a chaotic system that is only seemingly regular 
> in some sense? That is, it's not like a VCO, with a consistent and well 
> defined relation between the control input and the period. Changing the 
> control input may change the period in an unpredictable way. Some geysers 
> stop working if the surrounding hydrology changes. Or is that simply that the 
> Q of the oscillator is so high that it's easy to "get out of operating 
> range".  That would be like trying to discipline a spurious parasitic 
> oscillation in an amplifier.
> 
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[time-nuts] Re: disciplning natural phenomena +1/f of transistors

[ghf]

Am 2022-04-01 15:09, schrieb Lux, Jim:

As I re-read Fleming's "You Only Live Twice" last night, which
features a geyser that is "regulated" by a valve of some sort I was
intrigued by this idea:

Can one discipline a geyser to an external source?


The original Geysir in Island has become lazy. It takes an
earthquake to trigger it.

It's smaller neighbor, the Strokkur, can be triggered by throwing in
some soft soap, but that is forbidden now. Running free, it happens
every 6 minutes or so. Sorry, I did not measure adev etc.

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/4005253/in/album-72157688304045365/ 
  >


cheers, Gerhard

ps.  does anybody here have 1/f data of "interesting" transistors?
(not much hope)
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[time-nuts] Re: disciplning natural phenomena

[Tom Van Baak]

I've attached the ADEV plot from 11 years of Old Faithful data (2001 to 
2011).


For the data and also a deep dive into geyser statistics see this 
wonderful article:


http://www.stat.yale.edu/~jah49/Pictures_in_R/Fickle_Old_Faithful/OldFaithful.pdf

These papers might also be interesting to you:

"Triggering and modulation of geyser eruptions in Yellowstone National 
Park by earthquakes, earth tides, and weather"

https://digitalcommons.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2191&context=geo_pubs

"A Look at Some Data on the Old Faithful Geyser"
https://doi.org/10.2307/2347385

"Model for the eruption of the Old Faithful geyser, Yellowstone National 
Park"

https://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/23/6/pdf/i1052-5173-23-6-4.pdf

"A History of the Old Faithful Area with Chronology, Maps, and Executive 
Summary"

http://npshistory.com/publications/yell/old-faithful-area-history.pdf

For current and recent information see:

https://www.geysertimes.org/geyser.php?id=Old+Faithful
https://www.geysertimes.org/data.php
https://www.geysertimes.org/analysis.php
https://www.geysertimes.org/map.php

And of course there's a webcam:

https://yellowstone.net/geysers/old-faithful/
https://yellowstone.net/geysers/old-faithful-webcam/

/tvb


On 4/1/2022 6:09 AM, Lux, Jim wrote:
As I re-read Fleming's "You Only Live Twice" last night, which 
features a geyser that is "regulated" by a valve of some sort I was 
intrigued by this idea:


Can one discipline a geyser to an external source?

a) I assume there's some data somewhere on eruption timing - sure, Old 
Faithful is quite regular, sufficiently that they can say "the next 
eruption will occur at" and people will gather and watch it. But 
what's the ADEV? As a kid in the early 70s, I didn't think to ask this 
question, and neither Allan nor Leeson seem to mention it in their 
papers from 1966.  There is a lot of variation in timing performance 
of various geysers, though.  Old Faithful *is* regular, and in a place 
where it's watchable.


b) Are periodic geysers actually regulatable ?- From the little I know 
about how they work, I would think the eruption frequency depends on 
things like the water temperature and flow. It's also possible that 
the valve in Fleming's novel is purely fictional, because it serves as 
part of a plot device at the end (much like closing off the safety 
valve on a boiler).


Or, are geysers an example of a chaotic system that is only seemingly 
regular in some sense? That is, it's not like a VCO, with a consistent 
and well defined relation between the control input and the period. 
Changing the control input may change the period in an unpredictable 
way. Some geysers stop working if the surrounding hydrology changes. 
Or is that simply that the Q of the oscillator is so high that it's 
easy to "get out of operating range".  That would be like trying to 
discipline a spurious parasitic oscillation in an amplifier.


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