Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Ed: I see what appear to be good voltages from the mothor board into the A17 video driver board, that is Gnd, +12VDC, V Sync, HSync, and video (Intensity) Have a possibly good A17 board, on the bench along with a CRT, removed from instrument. Am testing voltages, waveforms, and Electrolytic Cap values for base line. It functions with just +12V drive from bench supply. I have a raster scan that varies in intensity with voltage level (0-5v) applied to video input. Have two more (not good) boards, with some known bad caps, that then can then be repaired to the baseline.Will then try A17 and CRT on the 5372A itself. Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com 452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail) Keyser WV 26726 GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) Telephones: Home: +1-304-289-6057 US cell +1-304-790-9192 Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of ed breya Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 4:40 PM To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display. Looking back at the OP, it appears the display is at least partially working, since there is some HV to light a dim spot on screen. I don't know what this display looks like inside, but imagine it's one or two small boards mounted open-frame on the CRT mechanical assembly, and connected to the instrument by one or two cable/connector assemblies. It should be possible to remove the whole thing onto a bench, and run it out in the open for better access. The first thing to do is close inspection, looking for any obvious problems like puffy or leaky capacitors and burnt parts, loose/broken connections, and possibly fuses open. Power supply problems are the most likely culprits, so if you can figure out the internal power distribution at least somewhat, you can make some measurements. These kind of units likely run on a single bulk supply at a standard voltage like +12 (most likely since most magnetic raster CRTs use 12V heaters) or +24, and you should be able to find out from the schematics for the rest of the system. Are the signals in the interconnections labeled? If so, the power should be identified, and also try to figure out what each signal is supposed to do. You already know the sync and video, etc, but also look for anything else like an enable or standby signal. What I'm getting at here is that depending on the overall supply architecture, when the 5372A is in standby (keeping the OCXO on) it could be that a lot of stuff is actually powered, but disabled. Related to this, is there a GPIB or other command that can turn off the display and lock out the front panel when in remote-only mode? If there is some form of on/off provision, a signal failure here could shut it down even if the rest is OK. There are lots of possibilities, but it narrows it down a lot if you can proof the supplies and external controls. Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Looking back at the OP, it appears the display is at least partially working, since there is some HV to light a dim spot on screen. I don't know what this display looks like inside, but imagine it's one or two small boards mounted open-frame on the CRT mechanical assembly, and connected to the instrument by one or two cable/connector assemblies. It should be possible to remove the whole thing onto a bench, and run it out in the open for better access. The first thing to do is close inspection, looking for any obvious problems like puffy or leaky capacitors and burnt parts, loose/broken connections, and possibly fuses open. Power supply problems are the most likely culprits, so if you can figure out the internal power distribution at least somewhat, you can make some measurements. These kind of units likely run on a single bulk supply at a standard voltage like +12 (most likely since most magnetic raster CRTs use 12V heaters) or +24, and you should be able to find out from the schematics for the rest of the system. Are the signals in the interconnections labeled? If so, the power should be identified, and also try to figure out what each signal is supposed to do. You already know the sync and video, etc, but also look for anything else like an enable or standby signal. What I'm getting at here is that depending on the overall supply architecture, when the 5372A is in standby (keeping the OCXO on) it could be that a lot of stuff is actually powered, but disabled. Related to this, is there a GPIB or other command that can turn off the display and lock out the front panel when in remote-only mode? If there is some form of on/off provision, a signal failure here could shut it down even if the rest is OK. There are lots of possibilities, but it narrows it down a lot if you can proof the supplies and external controls. Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Magnus; Thanks. The one thing, I think I know, is that the defection coils seem to work as expect. That was from testing with a low voltage variable supply. I have the TAPR TICC talking to TimeLab, as a free running ASCII source, but the TICC documentation is a bit cryptic. I will address the "Nuts" with some specific questions soon. First need to upload the new software. Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 11:09 AM To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display. Hi Lester, The 5372A excels in a field where we usually do not go, "high" speed signals. It can time-tag events every 75 ns (in fast mode, 100 ns in normal mode) if needed, and it can also do hardware accelerated histograms. Valuable skills for some tasks. Some have the FFT option. For normal time-nuts work, you can often use a TAPR TICC and TimeLab to do most of "our" exercises much more convenient than using the 5372A. To some degree tha 5372A is old and arcane, but it still find it's uses and you still can use it as a 200 ps resolution counter, which beat a bunch of other options. The TAPR TICC has however higher resolution and is therefore very useful. The CRT module should not be too challenging to an old tube-ham like yourself. I had to replace a capacitor. Some diodes looked like they had been running hot, but they where still operational. I also had deflection problems, but once the retrace oscillator started operating things fell into place. 73 de SA0MAD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Hi Lester, The 5372A excels in a field where we usually do not go, "high" speed signals. It can time-tag events every 75 ns (in fast mode, 100 ns in normal mode) if needed, and it can also do hardware accelerated histograms. Valuable skills for some tasks. Some have the FFT option. For normal time-nuts work, you can often use a TAPR TICC and TimeLab to do most of "our" exercises much more convenient than using the 5372A. To some degree tha 5372A is old and arcane, but it still find it's uses and you still can use it as a 200 ps resolution counter, which beat a bunch of other options. The TAPR TICC has however higher resolution and is therefore very useful. The CRT module should not be too challenging to an old tube-ham like yourself. I had to replace a capacitor. Some diodes looked like they had been running hot, but they where still operational. I also had deflection problems, but once the retrace oscillator started operating things fell into place. 73 de SA0MAD On 2020-06-30 15:33, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote: > Magnus: > Thanks for the advice. As a long time ham (1962 Tech and commercial RTO > tickets), when one of the rites of passage was taking discarded Vacuum tube > TVs and turning them into CW transmitters, the dangers of HV are well known. > Particularly what lurks under that anode feed through clip on the crt > envelope. Or learning not to grab the plate cap on a 6146 when using a > cathode keyed rig.. (Only did that once) > > On my 5372A, both horiz and Vert deflection drives do not look like what I > would expect, particularly with the coils disconnected. > > That is why I am hoping the 5371 (arriving today) may give me a starting > point. > > As an aside, does the 5372A offer any direct measurement capability that the > TAPR TICC does not (with sufficient software post processing of course) > > I would like to get it going, as a point of personal pride ( I love cheeep, > not working, for parts only deals), but having a TICC, should I let this > project simmer on a low burner? > > Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y > les...@veenstras.com > > 452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail) > Keyser WV 26726 > > GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) > GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) > > > Telephones: > Home: +1-304-289-6057 > US cell+1-304-790-9192 > Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 > > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus > Danielson > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 5:24 PM > To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display. > > Hi Lester, > > I had this problem with the 5372A at work. As others have noted, > documentation of the CRT unit is for sure leaving a lot to wish for when > comparing how well the rest of the unit is documented. We could however > fairly quickly see the problem, and it turned out that a capacitor had > let out it's grey smoke. So, we replaced it and it fired up and worked. > Took care of a little trimming and it went out the lab again. The CRT > unit is fairly standard as for monochrome CRT goes, so nothing very > advanced. I usually do not service CRTs but me and my colleague did not > found it very challenging in the end. One just needs to be careful with > voltages. It was a fair bit of unscrewing to "get to it" as I recall, so > both top and bottom lid had to be popped, as well as the side lid which > hides screws. > > Besides the CMOS-battery, the CRT failure is the only other service I've > had to do to the 5372As. > > The "GUI" of the 5372A leaves a few things to desire, but it has it's > good points too. The GPIB command structure may be daunting at first, > but if one really reads the programming manual, your really get to learn > how everything is processed from the hardware bits, because the > preferred interface just dumps one of a number of subsets of data > register read-outs, and all the processing one needs to do it explained > in detail. It also becomes apparent that a sneak-feature is that 100 ps > resolution may be possible to support by replacing the interpolator boards. > > If I had the time, I would do a modern hardware to grab data on the > fast-port connectors and dump them out over Ethernet. This would be the > way to keep the counter operating continuously with fast data gathering, > but without being limited to the 8192 samples long memory, which when > full being processed by the 68k processor before another run could be > triggered. Offboarding that the existing CPU would be used to set the > instrument up, and then all the data is gathered and processed in > somewhat more modern hardware. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 2020-06-28 16:22, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote: >> >> >> TimeNuts: >> >> >> >> I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this (A17) >> is undocumented (as no
Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Magnus: Thanks for the advice. As a long time ham (1962 Tech and commercial RTO tickets), when one of the rites of passage was taking discarded Vacuum tube TVs and turning them into CW transmitters, the dangers of HV are well known. Particularly what lurks under that anode feed through clip on the crt envelope. Or learning not to grab the plate cap on a 6146 when using a cathode keyed rig.. (Only did that once) On my 5372A, both horiz and Vert deflection drives do not look like what I would expect, particularly with the coils disconnected. That is why I am hoping the 5371 (arriving today) may give me a starting point. As an aside, does the 5372A offer any direct measurement capability that the TAPR TICC does not (with sufficient software post processing of course) I would like to get it going, as a point of personal pride ( I love cheeep, not working, for parts only deals), but having a TICC, should I let this project simmer on a low burner? Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com 452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail) Keyser WV 26726 GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) Telephones: Home: +1-304-289-6057 US cell+1-304-790-9192 Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 5:24 PM To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display. Hi Lester, I had this problem with the 5372A at work. As others have noted, documentation of the CRT unit is for sure leaving a lot to wish for when comparing how well the rest of the unit is documented. We could however fairly quickly see the problem, and it turned out that a capacitor had let out it's grey smoke. So, we replaced it and it fired up and worked. Took care of a little trimming and it went out the lab again. The CRT unit is fairly standard as for monochrome CRT goes, so nothing very advanced. I usually do not service CRTs but me and my colleague did not found it very challenging in the end. One just needs to be careful with voltages. It was a fair bit of unscrewing to "get to it" as I recall, so both top and bottom lid had to be popped, as well as the side lid which hides screws. Besides the CMOS-battery, the CRT failure is the only other service I've had to do to the 5372As. The "GUI" of the 5372A leaves a few things to desire, but it has it's good points too. The GPIB command structure may be daunting at first, but if one really reads the programming manual, your really get to learn how everything is processed from the hardware bits, because the preferred interface just dumps one of a number of subsets of data register read-outs, and all the processing one needs to do it explained in detail. It also becomes apparent that a sneak-feature is that 100 ps resolution may be possible to support by replacing the interpolator boards. If I had the time, I would do a modern hardware to grab data on the fast-port connectors and dump them out over Ethernet. This would be the way to keep the counter operating continuously with fast data gathering, but without being limited to the 8192 samples long memory, which when full being processed by the 68k processor before another run could be triggered. Offboarding that the existing CPU would be used to set the instrument up, and then all the data is gathered and processed in somewhat more modern hardware. Cheers, Magnus On 2020-06-28 16:22, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote: > > > TimeNuts: > > > > I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this (A17) > is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way > around it to see if the defect is findable. > > > > Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation? > > I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the > board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would > expect. > > > > Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still > no horizontal line. > > With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves well > in both axis with low voltage DC applied. > > > > > > However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the > instrument without the GUI user interface? > > I seem to recall some discussion of “raw data” dumps turned into useful > measurements. > > > > > > Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y > > les...@veenstras.com > > > > 452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail) > > Keyser WV 26726 > > > > GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) > > GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) > > > > > > Telephones: > > Home: +1-304-289-6057 > > US cell+1-304-790-9192 > > Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 > > > > >
Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Steve: I probably will be reduced to stealing the two assemblies from a 71 to go into the 72 Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Yes, but no schematics visible. Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Dave Miller Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 11:31 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display. Lester, All I can find is the PN 2090-0209 for the whole assembly. Dave VE7HR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
"You can get a bitmap of the screen using "INTERFACE;PSOURCE,DISPLAY;PRINT", but it is not particularly fast and comes with gratis PCL escapes, but it does work." Interesting, I will look into it as a way to get a starting point, atleast for initial tests and diadnostics --- "If you dump the raw measurements, that's precisely what you get, and you will need to do all the processing, math and plotting yourself.: Well in the world of Linux/Python, processing, math and plotting, these are not really big difficulties Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com 452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail) Keyser WV 26726 GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) Telephones: Home: +1-304-289-6057 US cell +1-304-790-9192 Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 -Original Message- From: Poul-Henning Kamp [mailto:p...@phk.freebsd.dk] Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 11:21 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Cc: Lester Veenstra Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display. Lester Veenstra via time-nuts writes: I assume you mean HP-5372A and not 5732A ? > I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the > board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would > expect. The 5372 uses a weird video-format, 19KHz horizontal and 60Hz vertical, but it might be possible to find a LCD panel which can do that. There are two bits of video, "half intensity" and "full intensity", so a color panel would be required. > However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the > instrument without the GUI user interface? I've never quite gotten the hang of HPIB with the HP5372, the HPIB is very geared towards moving the raw binary data, and not very much towards "remote front-panel". You can get a bitmap of the screen using "INTERFACE;PSOURCE,DISPLAY;PRINT", but it is not particularly fast and comes with gratis PCL escapes, but it does work. If you dump the raw measurements, that's precisely what you get, and you will need to do all the processing, math and plotting yourself. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
I assume you mean HP-5372A---Yes, of course. Mind not fully in control Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com 452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail) Keyser WV 26726 GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) Telephones: Home: +1-304-289-6057 US cell +1-304-790-9192 Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
