Re: Harris: not-so-cheesy debate
The identical twin data, as I understand it, was based on a sample that had relatively little socioeconomic and cultural variation. The parents were similar. Moreover the fact that they volunteered almost certainly meant that there was less variation in their interactions and parenting style than would be foukknd with a more hetergeneous population. When the variance due to social class and parenting styles are small then other variables would account for more of the variance. If a wider sample were used and the problems of volunteerism worked out, I suspect that parent's interaction with children would account for more of the variance in children's behavior. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: Cheesy debate
On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Weisskirch, Rob went: > ... I think the real reason it received so much attention is because > it appeals to the Baby Boomer psych-types. [I am aware I am opening > up a can of generational worms]. For Boomer parents who have kids > who, well, uh, didn't turn out exactly how they anticipated rejoice > in Harris' assertion that parents don't really matter. Yes, blame > the peers. Peers do the socializing. Parents, as long as you are > generally good to them, have little influence. Boy, does this lift > the burden on parents as the culprits for less-than-ideal kids. I'm not convinced that this accounts for much of the attention given to _The Nurture Assumption_. I think the book got attention because its ideas were startling and yet somehow resonant with many people's experiences. For me, that resonance had nothing to do with being a Boomer parent (I'm only 34 and currently childless-by-choice); it had to do with my being one of three siblings who, despite seemingly similar parenting, are each very different (though each generally happy and successful). >From a more detached perspective, I thought Harris did an excellent job of exposing the weakness of the evidence behind the nurture assumption (even if I didn't buy every detail of her group- socialization hypothesis, wherein teenage culture is transmitted down the generations like a jumprope rhyme). Since having read the book, I no longer swallow facile statements about Upbringing A leading to Adulthood Trait B. It's got nothing to do with blame or credit; it's a matter of critical thinking. Half-tangentially, this thread reminds me of the following fascinating finding: Widom CS, Weiler BL, and Cottler LB. Childhood victimization and drug abuse: a comparison of prospective and retrospective findings. Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology. 67(6):867-80, 1999 Dec. Abstract This study examined whether childhood victimization increases risk for drug abuse using prospective and retrospective victimization information. Substantiated cases of child abuse/neglect from 1967 to 1971 were matched on gender, age, race, and approximate social class with nonabused/nonneglected children and followed prospectively into young adulthood. Between 1989 and 1995, 1,196 participants (676 abused/neglected and 520 control) were administered a 2-hr interview, including measures of self-reported childhood victimization and drug use/abuse (the NIMH Diagnostic Interview Schedule--Version III-- Revised). *Prospectively*, abused/neglected individuals were *not* at increased risk for drug abuse. In contrast, *retrospective* self- reports of childhood victimization *were* associated with robust and significant increases in risk for drug abuse. The relationship between childhood victimization and subsequent drug problems is more complex than originally anticipated. [emphases added. --D.E.] --David H. Epstein, Ph.D. in Behavioral Neuroscience former lecturer, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ Staff Fellow (i.e. postdoc), National Institute on Drug Abuse, Baltimore, MD Staying on TIPS because I intend to return to teaching someday. [THERE's yer .sig, Stephen.]
RE: Cheesy debate
Nancy wrote: "Who one's parents are (genetically, in their social status/financial resources, their values, the neighborhood they settle the family in, the schools they send the kids to, etc.) almost certainly affects the type of friends, clique, or crowd a child chooses." This is exactly where Harris says that parents have the strongest effect on the development of their children. As I understand her, she is arguing that parenting style and other "in home interactions" have little effect on development that is not distinguishable from genetic effects. To borrow an idea from Scarr and McCartney who borrowed the idea from Plomin, the unique characteristics of the child elicit the parental behaviors that we see as making the child unique. I also want to chime in on Stephen's comment. Being a baby boomer with great kids, I am distressed that if Harris is right, then I cannot take as much credit for their development as I would like. Their teachers look at me like I am nuts when I say that they contributed as much to their success as I have. Well I guess I did give the kids some good genes :-) For those of you who are interested, there is an exchange of views in the November Developmental Psychology. Deborah Vandell offers the criticism and Harris responds. I have only skimmed the two papers, but some of the ideas that Nancy raises are addressed by both authors. Dennis Dennis M. Goff Dept. of Psychology Randolph-Macon Woman's College Lynchburg VA
New ethics code draft
The first public draft of the new APA ethics code is available via the following url: http://anastasi.apa.org/draftethicscode/ They're soliciting comments from the membership if you're interested. David David T. Wasieleski, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Psychology and Counseling Valdosta State University 229-333-5620 http://chiron.valdosta.edu/dtwasieleski "It's like a dream you try to remember but it's gone Then you try to scream but it only comes out as a yawn When you try to see the world beyond your front door..." --Barenaked Ladies "Pinch Me"
VSU's 9th Annual Psychology Conference
Valdosta State University is readying itself for its 9th Annual Psychology Conference. It's a small conference aimed primarily at undergraduate students. You can suggest that some of your undergrads involved in ongoing or completed research projects apply for a poster or paper presentation. It will be held on Saturday, April 21st, at the Continuing Education Building at Valdosta State University in Valdosta, Georgia. Lodging information will be sent to registrants. Presenters must also register. The keynote speaker is Dr. Jerome Sattler, of the Assessment of Children textbook fame. There will also be some workshops offered on subjects ranging from the GRE, using SPSS, making professional presentations, and test anxiety. Check out the web page below for info on all that and registration: http://chiron.valdosta.edu/mawhatley/confer/ David T. Wasieleski, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Psychology and Counseling Valdosta State University 229-333-5620 http://chiron.valdosta.edu/dtwasieleski "It's like a dream you try to remember but it's gone Then you try to scream but it only comes out as a yawn When you try to see the world beyond your front door..." --Barenaked Ladies "Pinch Me"
Giving Psychoanalytic and Abnormal Psychology Books Away
OK Tipsters, Todays final announcement involves Psychoanalytic and Abnormal Psychology books: Eidelberg Encyclopedia of Psychoanalysis Roazen Brother Animal - The Story of Freud and Tausk FinePsychoanalytic Psychology Thass-ThienemannThe Subconscious Language Jaspers General Psychopathology Same offer as before. I would like to be reimbursed for shipping costs. Michael Bergmire Psychology Department Jefferson College 1000 Viking Drive Hillsboro, MO 63050 (636) 797-3000 Ext. 347 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cheesy debate
Hello friends, I am wondering why a more middle-of-the-road view on this question is not being studied (or is it, and I am just clueless?) That is, it makes little sense to say, however convincingly, that parents have virtually NO influence on how their children turn out, and makes equally little sense to say that the peer group, the importance of which ascends rapidly starting probably at around the 5-7 shift, has no impact either. Both these views strike me as narrow, self-serving and naive. There is probably a complex set of interacting factors at work in shaping each child. Who one's parents are (genetically, in their social status/financial resources, their values, the neighborhood they settle the family in, the schools they send the kids to, etc.) almost certainly affects the type of friends, clique, or crowd a child chooses. The level of parental involvement in the child's life, even through adolescence, is key also. Harris and her foes sometimes seem to present a false dichotomy too - parents versus peers. Many children also find other adults, in the extended family, in the school and community, who help to shape them - mentors, coaches, and the like. Eventually most of us end up struggling most of our lives between identifying ourselves in relationship to our parents, our peers, our culture, and as a separate autonomous individual. I have no scientific way to back this up, of course. It is just my considered opinion. After awhile, it began to seem to me that the whole Harris versus parents thing is just far too reductionist in failing to consider all the myriad variables that can come into play. My .01 - Nancy Melucci East Los Angeles College Monterey Park, CA
Intro Midterm and Final Exams
I've gotten some great suggestions and I thank all of you. However, I need to clarify something - this is to be a comprehensive midterm and final and they must stand on its own. I am teaching a Georgia GLOBE course (or e-core) for the Board of Regents. The BOR decided to create a series of courses that a student could take on-line to obtain their core. Individuals were hired to create an on-line course and they were told that they had certain restrictions to follow (for example, the buttons and location of materials had to be the same for all of the courses). One of the restrictions was that every student had to take a proctored exam. An intro to psych course was created - not by me. I am one of the first people who is teaching an e-core course that has not had a hand in developing said course (and that is harder than it sounds!). One of the things I must do is give a proctored midterm and a final (in addition to chapter quizzes) - the value of which has already been set (again, not by me). The midterm and final are separate from the chapter quizzes. Since I have never given one, I just wanted to know what was reasonable. Deb Dr. Deborah S. Briihl Dept. of Psychology and Counseling Valdosta State University Valdosta, GA 31698 (229) 333-5994 [EMAIL PROTECTED] chiron.valdosta.edu/dbriihl/ Well I know these voices must be my soul... Rhyme and Reason - DMB
RE: Intro Midterm and Final Exams
Deborah <> In my intro psych course, I give 3 or 4 exams depending on whether it is the mini-term or the 16-week term. Usually each exam is 50 questions, multiple choice. I rarely use T/F, as those are pretty hard (I know, maybe that's not the best reason to avoid those). I'll sometimes slip in a few matching questions. <> I keep a file of questions handy and select different ones from the base file for each class. So the work is labor intensive for me once and I just cut/rework different questions from my base file for different classes. Initially, I compile the "base" file of about 100 questions for each of the exams using the test bank questions as the base for that. I just use the test bank questions to save time but I usually rewrite the test bank questions and make them more "user friendly" (not necessarily to dumb them down, just more unique to my style) and more consistent with the phrasing I used in my transparencies. I think this helps stimulates their recall. You might think this is overboard, but I also allow them the option of turning in a bonus essay question for extra credit on each test (you know, pick one out of three). If they take the time to turn in an Essay with the test, they can get an extra 10 or so points depending on the level of sophistication of the work. Hope this helps. P.S. Some months back (3 Oct 00), Sue Frantz posted an interesting alternative that I really liked and keep thinking of trying - I particularly like the idea that you don't need work out a make-up exam schedule. The final exam automatically becomes the make-up opportunity. Here is the gist (quoted from her post). There is lots more on her post and you may want to check out her web page which is excellent. <> Haydee Gelpi Broward Community College, Florida (954) 776-6500 -Original Message- From: Deborah Briihl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 3:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Intro Midterm and Final Exams Hello all. I am teaching an Intro to Psych class this term and, for the first time, must give a midterm and comprehensive final. I have not given these in my Intro classes before (not this format anyway) and am not sure what the best method would be. For those of you who give these tests, do you use mainly MC questions, or fill in the blanks, or essays? Do you pull questions from previous tests? How many questions do you typically ask? Thanks in advance for any help. Deb Dr. Deborah S. Briihl Dept. of Psychology and Counseling Valdosta State University Valdosta, GA 31698 (229) 333-5994 [EMAIL PROTECTED] chiron.valdosta.edu/dbriihl/ Well I know these voices must be my soul... Rhyme and Reason - DMB
faculty position announcements
Please post the information below and share it with others who might be interested: Thanks - Retta PSYCHOLOGY FACULTY SEARCH (I/O, QUANTITATIVE/EDUCATIONAL PSYCHOLOGY) - The Department of Psychology at Western Kentucky University invites applications for two tenure track positions at the assistant or associate professor level. We are seeking applicants with strengths in the following areas: a) Industrial/Organizational Psychology, area of emphasis open, earned doctorate in I/O required. The ability to direct theses on I/O related topics is required. b) Educational Psychology with a quantitative focus, including skills to teach graduate courses in ANOVA and multiple regression and expertise in program evaluation; and working with teachers, Ed Psychology broadly defined. Applicants who combine expertise across two or more of these areas are especially encouraged to apply. Responsibilities include teaching courses in our master=s level graduate programs and undergraduate support courses in the person=s area of expertise; experience in teaching is preferred. A record of publications and grants is preferred. Experience/interest in working with ethnic/diverse groups desirable. Knowledge of web-based technology and other modes of delivery is preferred. Please visit our website at http://edtech.tph.wku.edu/~psych to learn more about our department. Review of applications begins February 15, 2001 and will continue until the position is filled. Send letter of application, vita, transcripts, and three letters of reference to: Dr. John O=Connor, Department of Psychology, Psychology Search Committee, Western Kentucky University, 1 Big Red Way, Bowling Green, KY 42101-3576. Women and minorities are encouraged to apply. The department also is supportive of dual career couples, who are encouraged to apply. Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer. -- Retta E. Poe, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Western Kentucky University 1 Big Red Way Bowling Green, Ky. 42101 (270) 745-4409 FAX: (270) 745-6934 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Live long, and prosper!"
Harris: not-so-cheesy debate
On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Weisskirch, Rob wrote: > > I definitely don't want to resurrect the Nurture Assumption debate that has > gone on since her theories have been published. But, I will give you my > perspective. Harris has a fine theory supported by selective studies and > not well-countered in her book. > > But, I think the real reason it received so much attention is because it > appeals to the Baby Boomer psych-types. [I am aware I am opening up a can of > generational worms]. For Boomer parents who have kids who, well, uh, didn't > turn out exactly how they anticipated rejoice in Harris' assertion that > parents don't really matter. Yes, blame the peers. Peers do the > socializing. Parents, as long as you are generally good to them, have > little influence. Boy, does this lift the burden on parents as the culprits > for less-than-ideal kids. As Boomers, who are much better educated living > in a time of economic expansion and other opportunities, blaming the peers > becomes a way to assuage guilt for turning out the oft-maligned Xers, Ys, > and Millenials. > > A proud Xer and non-Harris supporter, This is getting interesting. I take back the pejorative "cheesy" applied to this discussion. Not up to reviewing the evidence here myself, I have to say I disagree with Rob's characterization of the support for the theory. Moreover, the implication of the twin research of Plomin and Bouchard was already clearly stated in the literature before Harris, only no one paid any attention. We owe Harris for hitting people over the head with it. Now it's true that her work has been interpreted as arguing that parents no longer need take the blame. I find this refreshing. For years the pschodynamic establishment has viciously attacked parents, particularly mothers, and cruelly blamed them for everything from schizophrenia to autism. For example, take Bruno Bettleheim. Please! So I think it's time to redress the balance, and point out that all of these claims were pure horse, but devastating to parents. (E. Fuller Torrey has an imaginative essay in which he puts Bettleheim, Laing, and others on trial for these crimes--see Torrey, 1977) On the other hand, most people I talk to about Harris's views, both of my generation and my students, generally are not positive. On the contrary, they do not welcome their new blame-free status with respect to the next generation. This is because there's another side to Harris's view. If we can't be blamed for how our children turn out, neither can we take the credit when they turn out well. And many people are eager to take the credit. As a parent, I have trouble accepting what Harris has to say. But as a scientist, I have no trouble at all. -Stephen Torrey, E. (1977). A fantasy trial about a real issue. Psychology Today, March, 1977, p. ?? Stephen Black, Ph.D. tel: (819) 822-9600 ext 2470 Department of Psychology fax: (819) 822-9661 Bishop's Universitye-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lennoxville, QC J1M 1Z7 Canada Department web page at http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy Check out TIPS listserv for teachers of psychology at: http://www.frostburg.edu/dept/psyc/southerly/tips/
Re: Hoople hoopla deconstructed
On Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:33:19 -0500 (EST) Stephen Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hey, Ken! Wasn't it at USND at Hoople that the early work was done on the > > > PDQ Bach effect, in which rats listened to his Concerto for > > > Horn and Hardart > > > > Anyway, it was at Hoople that we learned about Skinner's visit to > > a certain Philadelphia institution and the true story behind the design > > of the operant chamber. > > All of this tongue-in-cheek insider joke stuff is getting to me. > Could someone please explain what this is all about? Or do I > have to alert the Relevance Police? > To continued with Jim Dougan's explanation... Track 1 of "An evening with PDQ Bach" is a concerto to Horn & Hardart. Horn & Hardart developed the first automat, or waiterless restaurant, in the US and it is the ancestor of the fast food retaurant. The first restaurant was located in Philadelphia, and the Horn & Hardart automat was the inspiration for the song "Let's have another cup of coffee..." Here is a link to pictures from an H & H... http://www.theautomat.com/inside/history/history.html Scroll down to the picture with Doris Day. That picture and the picture above give you an appreciation of the interior of an H & H. The interior walls were lined with little glass doors through which you could retrieve sandwiches, pie slices, and other food items. When Robert Herdegen made the reference to Horn & Hardart, I remembered vividly a visit to a Horn & Hardart Automat in Phildelphia, to which I had gone to have [sentimentally] a cup of coffee and a piece of pie. That experience was one of stepping back in time to the 1940s, and it looked just like the pictures discussed above. I hadn't thought of an H & H in years. The reference in the context of discussing a rat experiment made me suddenly realize that the arrangement looked like an operant conditioning lab where the chambers were stacked, one on top of another. And so in my testimony to the relevance police, I would point out that this type of memory experience should be discussed in class. It has a name... but I forgotten it at the moment. Ken -- Kenneth M. Steele, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dept. of Psychology Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608
Cheesy debate
Stephen and others, I definitely don't want to resurrect the Nurture Assumption debate that has gone on since her theories have been published. But, I will give you my perspective. Harris has a fine theory supported by selective studies and not well-countered in her book. But, I think the real reason it received so much attention is because it appeals to the Baby Boomer psych-types. [I am aware I am opening up a can of generational worms]. For Boomer parents who have kids who, well, uh, didn't turn out exactly how they anticipated rejoice in Harris' assertion that parents don't really matter. Yes, blame the peers. Peers do the socializing. Parents, as long as you are generally good to them, have little influence. Boy, does this lift the burden on parents as the culprits for less-than-ideal kids. As Boomers, who are much better educated living in a time of economic expansion and other opportunities, blaming the peers becomes a way to assuage guilt for turning out the oft-maligned Xers, Ys, and Millenials. A proud Xer and non-Harris supporter, Rob Weisskirch Rob Weisskirch, MSW, Ph.D. Department of Child and Adolescent Studies California State University, Fullerton P.O. Box 6868 Fullerton, CA 92834-6868 (714) 278-2896 http://faculty.fullerton.edu/rweisskirch
Re: issue with stats course
"G. Marc Turner" wrote: > I need some advice on how to handle an issue in my stats course... > > I'm currently using the Essentials of Statistics (by Gravetter & Wallnau) > as the textbook. In the chapter on variability, it uses the real limits for > the calculation of the range, inter-quartile range, etc. This is actually > how I learned to do the calculations by hand, and haven't really thought > much about it until now. > > I'm also teaching the students how to use SPSS (v9) to get the same > information after going over the hand-calculations. BUT, SPSS does not use > the real limits when calculating the range, quartiles, etc. (For example, > for one data set we get a range of 9 and an interquartile range of 1.89 by > hand. SPSS calculates the range as 8 and the interquartile range as 2.) > > So, tomorrow afternoon when I go over this in class, and the students ask > me to explain why the scores are different, what should the answer be? My > immediate reaction is to say that we shouldn't trust the values of SPSS, > and this points out why it is important to know how to do the calculations > by hand. However, I'm not sure how far that will get me in convincing the > students. I don't mess with the upper and lower limits anymore (except when I teach them how to graph). I don't think it's worth the effort. With a _small_ data set, knowing that the IQR is 3.1 as opposed to 3.0 is rarely useful. Indeed, with a small data set many of our descriptive statistics are not needed anyway. You just look at the numbers. As the sample size gets larger and larger, the practical significance of using limits and factoring in "tied" scores diminshes. While I don't ordinarily condone imprecision - medians, ranges, and IQRs are usually done as part of exploratory data analysis (EDA) in which case nobody every does them anyway - and all the attention payed to the limits and tied scores deflects the students _away_ from the real message which is the approriate use of these statistics. Given the numerous challenges of the stats course and all the hurdles that lie ahead, I "choose my battles", do a quick example by hand (no limits or ties) and then tell them to have the computer do it. When else in their professional life will they need to get a IQR to that precision? I have seen some stats books (Lehman?) that have students plot the cumulative freqency, and then with a straight edge draw in Q1 and Q3, and then "eyeball" where the line hits. If done properly this is quite accurate and potentially useful in an exploratory data analysis (EDA) context. The stats book I use now (Moore's Basic Practice of Statistics - EDA oriented) doesn't mess with the limits at all. From the standpoint of the software developers, I think it would be easy to adjust for tied scores (though I have never tried to write the code!), but it might being a stretch to figure the limits. When you have the numbers 3,4,5 - _you_ know the unit of measurement is .5 and the limits of 5 are 4.5 to 5.4, but how would the code know? I suspect (but don't actually know) that when the enter the number 5, it is represented as 5.000 - or something like that. On most programs you can change the number of digits past the period to display on the monitor, but this is cosmetic (though I'd love to hear from a real programmer on this issue). -- --- John W. Kulig[EMAIL PROTECTED] Department of Psychology http://oz.plymouth.edu/~kulig Plymouth State College tel: (603) 535-2468 Plymouth NH USA 03264fax: (603) 535-2412 --- "What a man often sees he does not wonder at, although he knows not why it happens; if something occurs which he has not seen before, he thinks it is a marvel" - Cicero.
Re: issue with stats course
I'd also like to point out that, even though I am not familiar with how SPSS and other stat packages calculate these things, I'm guessing they do it via a "simple frequency distribution" rather than a "grouped frequency distribution". That could/might account for small differences in the hand- vs. computer-calculated answers. --Cheryl >"G. Marc Turner" wrote: > > > I need some advice on how to handle an issue in my stats course... > > > > I'm currently using the Essentials of Statistics (by Gravetter & >Wallnau) as the textbook. In the chapter on variability, it uses the real >limits for the calculation of the range, inter-quartile range, etc. This is >actually how I learned to do the calculations by hand, and haven't really >thought much about it until now. > > I'm also teaching the students how to use SPSS (v9) to get the same information after going over the hand-calculations. BUT, SPSS does not use the real limits when calculating the range, quartiles, etc. (For example, for one data set we get a range of 9 and an interquartile range of 1.89 by hand. SPSS calculates the range as 8 and the interquartile range as 2.) > I don't mess with the upper and lower limits anymore (except when I >teach them how to graph). I don't think it's worth the effort. With a >_small_ data set, knowing that the IQR is 3.1 as opposed to 3.0 is rarely >useful. >John W. Kulig Cheryl Schwartz, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] OR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- If logic is in the eye of the logician, then is wit in the eye of the wittician? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
RE: issue with stats course
Marc, I just pulled my (old) copy of Gravetter & Wallnau off the shelf. They define the range as the distance between the largest and smallest score in the distribution. After thinking about this for a bit, it occurs to me that using the real limits to calculate the range *may* be inappropriate because what it really gives you is the *potential* range. If the highest score is a 5, it could potentially be 5.49, but it could also be 4.99. We don't know for sure. In that case, calculating the range as Xlargest - X smallest (as SPSS does according to their algorithm book) gives you a range on the actual scores assigned rather than potential scores. Thoughts worth everything you paid for 'em. Regards, Larry Larry Z. Daily Assistant Professor of Psychology Department of Psychology White Hall, Room 213 Shepherd College Shepherdstown, West Virginia 25443 phone: (304) 876-5297 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://webpages.shepherd.edu/LDAILY/index.html > -Original Message- > From: G. Marc Turner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 10:47 PM > To: TIPS > Subject: issue with stats course > > > I need some advice on how to handle an issue in my stats course... > > I'm currently using the Essentials of Statistics (by Gravetter & Wallnau) > as the textbook. In the chapter on variability, it uses the real > limits for > the calculation of the range, inter-quartile range, etc. This is actually > how I learned to do the calculations by hand, and haven't really thought > much about it until now. > > I'm also teaching the students how to use SPSS (v9) to get the same > information after going over the hand-calculations. BUT, SPSS does not use > the real limits when calculating the range, quartiles, etc. (For example, > for one data set we get a range of 9 and an interquartile range of 1.89 by > hand. SPSS calculates the range as 8 and the interquartile range as 2.) > > So, tomorrow afternoon when I go over this in class, and the students ask > me to explain why the scores are different, what should the answer be? My > immediate reaction is to say that we shouldn't trust the values of SPSS, > and this points out why it is important to know how to do the calculations > by hand. However, I'm not sure how far that will get me in convincing the > students. > > Any suggestions are appreciated... > - marc > G. Marc Turner, MEd > Lecturer & Head of Computer Operations > Department of Psychology > Southwest Texas State University > San Marcos, TX 78666 > phone: (512)245-2526 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
RE: issue with stats course
-Original Message- From: G. Marc Turner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:47 PM To: TIPS Subject: issue with stats course I need some advice on how to handle an issue in my stats course... So, tomorrow afternoon when I go over this in class, and the students ask me to explain why the scores are different, what should the answer be? My immediate reaction is to say that we shouldn't trust the values of SPSS, and this points out why it is important to know how to do the calculations by hand. However, I'm not sure how far that will get me in convincing the students. Any suggestions are appreciated... -- Marc: This is true of most stats programs. I actually make it one of my descriptive stats HW assignments to compare results of calculations using spreadsheet formulae with the results from the stat program because I think it helps emphasize the difference in formulae used. It is a fact that SPSS and many other stat programs only calculate the simple (or exclusive) range not the true (inclusive) range. If the students want a reason to use the real limits in the calculation instead of just taking the SPSS result, take an example from creating intervals for a grouped frequency distribution. Say you have a distribution with intervals 0-9, 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, etc. What is the range of one of those intervals as calculated by SPSS? 39-30=9. So is the interval only 9? Count how many scores are in the interval. 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39. There are 10. Why? Because the true range is from the upper real limit of 39.5 down to the lower real limit of 29.5, 39.5-29.5=10. In some cases, the simple range is an OK rough estimate of variability but, for many applications, you will need to calculate the true range. I don't think it will be helpful to say, "we shouldn't trust the values of SPSS, and this points out why it is important to know how to do the calculations by hand" because that leaves the student in the position of having to second guess all of SPSS' calculations and do all of them by hand (where is the time savings in that?) Instead, I would focus on pointing out to them those cases in which they should know that SPSS is printing something different than they may be looking for. The range is one and many stat programs also assume sd of a sample used to estimate a population sd (N-1 in the denominator) when you ask for a standard deviation. You are likely to have to find another command to actually receive the sd of the population (N in the denominator). Of course, this is just descriptive stats. With all the models of multivariate approaches out there, there is a good chance that a computer program will give you something other than you might calculate by hand. I think the bottom line is that that doesn't mean that either calculation is wrong, you are just using different formulae to ask different questions using different models and you have to know the implications of those differences to correctly interpret your results. In the final analysis, maybe stats isn't as easy as everyone thinks ;-} Rick Dr. Richard L. Froman Psychology Department John Brown University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.jbu.edu/sbs/psych/froman.htm
Giving Social Psychology Books Away
Hi Tipsters, The retirement cleaning and pitching continues. Todays books that are looking for a new home are: Radloff & Helmreich Groups Under Stress: Psychological Research in SEALAB II CampbellThe Sense of Well-Being In America Coleman & Rainwater Social Standing in America - New Dimensions of Class Glueck Unraveling Juvenile Delinquency GAP Assessment of Sexual Function - A Guide to Interviewing Brand The Media Lab: Inventing the Future at MIT Same deal as before. I would like to be reimbursed for shipping expenses. Michael Bergmire Psychology Department Jefferson College 1000 Viking Drive Hillsboro, MO 63050 (636) 797-3000 x347 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: issue with stats course
On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:47:22 -0600 "G. Marc Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I need some advice on how to handle an issue in my stats course... > > I'm currently using the Essentials of Statistics (by Gravetter & Wallnau) > as the textbook. In the chapter on variability, it uses the real limits for > the calculation of the range, inter-quartile range, etc. This is actually > how I learned to do the calculations by hand, and haven't really thought > much about it until now. > > I'm also teaching the students how to use SPSS (v9) to get the same > information after going over the hand-calculations. BUT, SPSS does not use > the real limits when calculating the range, quartiles, etc. (For example, > for one data set we get a range of 9 and an interquartile range of 1.89 by > hand. SPSS calculates the range as 8 and the interquartile range as 2.) > > So, tomorrow afternoon when I go over this in class, and the students ask > me to explain why the scores are different, what should the answer be? My > immediate reaction is to say that we shouldn't trust the values of SPSS, > and this points out why it is important to know how to do the calculations > by hand. However, I'm not sure how far that will get me in convincing the > students. > Marc: Definitely, I would not teach them that SPSS is "wrong" in this case. Instead I would turn this into a discussion of group or class interval size. When someone reports that his weight is 165 lbs then there is an implicit assumption that he has been truthful if his weight turns out to be 164.9 or 165.2. We usually count 164.51 -- 165.49 as a 165. In other words, we use the mean of the interval to represent the entire interval. That is what SPSS is doing, using the mean of the interval. Depending on circumstances, you may want to compute a range from true upper and lower bounds or you may want to compute the range from mean to mean of the intervals. The important point, and this applies to all stat packages and stat formulae, is that the person must choose what are the appropriate and meaningful math operations for the task at hand. This issue is not solved by choosing to do the compuations by hand or by keyboard. Ken PS--Systat uses the same calculation rule as SPSS. Are they both wrong? -- Kenneth M. Steele, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dept. of Psychology Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608
Re: Hoople hoopla
> >All of this tongue-in-cheek insider joke stuff is getting to me. >Could someone please explain what this is all about? Or do I >have to alert the Relevance Police? > >-Stephen (pausing briefly to relish the moment - I actually know more about something than Stephen.) The University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople (U. of S.N.D. at H.) is the home of Professor Peter Schickele. Professor Schickele is a musicologist best known for his in-depth studies of P.D.Q. Bach, one of the lesser known of the Bach family. To find out more, you can start with the following website: http://www.presser.com/pdqbach.html Relevance? Simply that any educated person should be familiar with the work of both Schickele and P.D.Q. Bach. -- Jim Dougan (who avoids signature files on principle)
more on SPSS and IQR and limits
Marc: Sorry I left the punchline off my previous post. As far as what to tell students: SPSS is "wrong" in that it takes short cuts (I assume that is what it does). But, the short cut methods are closer to the spirit of the way these measures are used in actually practice. -- --- John W. Kulig[EMAIL PROTECTED] Department of Psychology http://oz.plymouth.edu/~kulig Plymouth State College tel: (603) 535-2468 Plymouth NH USA 03264fax: (603) 535-2412 --- "What a man often sees he does not wonder at, although he knows not why it happens; if something occurs which he has not seen before, he thinks it is a marvel" - Cicero.
Re: Netiquette (now PDQB)
At 10:11 AM -0500 2/1/01, Ken Steele wrote: >On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:08:52 -0800 Robert Herdegen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: > >> >> Hey, Ken! Wasn't it at USND at Hoople that the early work was done on the >> PDQ Bach effect, in which rats listened to his Concerto for >> Horn and Hardart (S. 27) 12 hours a day for 6 weeks, after >> which their ability to learn mazes was significantly >> worse than rats that were left in peace? (At least >> it was for those rats in the music condition who didn't chew their own >> ears off during the study.) >> >> > >Unfortunately, we later discovered that the rats in the Horn & Hardart >group had increased consumption of coffee and pie which could also >account for the change. > >Anyway, it was at Hoople that we learned about Skinner's visit to >a certain Philadelphia institution and the true story behind the design >of the operant chamber. > >Ken Yes, that was the true source of AUTOMATed research. * PAUL K. BRANDON [EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Psychology Dept Minnesota State University, Mankato * * 23 Armstrong Hall, Mankato, MN 56001 ph 507-389-6217 * *http://www.mankato.msus.edu/dept/psych/welcome.html*
Hoople hoopla
On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Ken Steele wrote: > > On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:08:52 -0800 Robert Herdegen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Hey, Ken! Wasn't it at USND at Hoople that the early work was done on the > > PDQ Bach effect, in which rats listened to his Concerto for > > Horn and Hardart > > Anyway, it was at Hoople that we learned about Skinner's visit to > a certain Philadelphia institution and the true story behind the design > of the operant chamber. All of this tongue-in-cheek insider joke stuff is getting to me. Could someone please explain what this is all about? Or do I have to alert the Relevance Police? -Stephen Stephen Black, Ph.D. tel: (819) 822-9600 ext 2470 Department of Psychology fax: (819) 822-9661 Bishop's Universitye-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lennoxville, QC J1M 1Z7 Canada Department web page at http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy Check out TIPS listserv for teachers of psychology at: http://www.frostburg.edu/dept/psyc/southerly/tips/
Re: Netiquette (now PDQB)
On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:08:52 -0800 Robert Herdegen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hey, Ken! Wasn't it at USND at Hoople that the early work was done on the > PDQ Bach effect, in which rats listened to his Concerto for > Horn and Hardart (S. 27) 12 hours a day for 6 weeks, after > which their ability to learn mazes was significantly > worse than rats that were left in peace? (At least > it was for those rats in the music condition who didn't chew their own > ears off during the study.) > > Unfortunately, we later discovered that the rats in the Horn & Hardart group had increased consumption of coffee and pie which could also account for the change. Anyway, it was at Hoople that we learned about Skinner's visit to a certain Philadelphia institution and the true story behind the design of the operant chamber. Ken -- Kenneth M. Steele, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dept. of Psychology Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608
milton erikson
It's been a while since I have read about Milton Erikson, the famous hypnotherapist. I understand his work has garnered a strong following among those promoting "neurolinguistic programming" or NLP. I am wondering if any tipsters present info about hypnosis in their classes and use his cases or ideas? Also, are the cases/stories about his amazing use of suggestion hyped or exaggerated? Are there better balanced treatments (not Haley, Rosen, etc.) of his ideas, work, etc? Gary Peterson Saginaw Valley State Univ.
Re: issue with stats course
Hi On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, G. Marc Turner wrote: > I need some advice on how to handle an issue in my stats course... ... SPSS and Hand calculations give different values > So, tomorrow afternoon when I go over this in class, and the students ask > me to explain why the scores are different, what should the answer be? My > immediate reaction is to say that we shouldn't trust the values of SPSS, > and this points out why it is important to know how to do the calculations > by hand. However, I'm not sure how far that will get me in convincing the > students. I would hesitate to take the position that SPSS is "wrong," as that is unlikely to be the case and could come back to haunt you. I would rather take the position that in calculating statistics there are often several (or many) different ways of actually defining and computing the statistics. Sometimes the assumptions made might differ, for example. This is an example of one of those cases. You could try and track down the algorithm that SPSS is using and apply it manually to your set of data to show the correspondence with the output, and also how the procedure differs from the (simpler?) one that you taught. Best wishes Jim James M. Clark (204) 786-9757 Department of Psychology(204) 774-4134 Fax University of Winnipeg 4L05D Winnipeg, Manitoba R3B 2E9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA http://www.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark
Re: Intro Midterm and Final Exams
Deborah: When I give an inclass test, it is usually a combination of multiple choice and essays. I normally allow one sheet of "cheat notes." Students may explain their answers on the test paper (an idea I stole from a fellow tipster.) I always give tests back to the students to keep, because I believe they should have their tests back. So I rewrite the tests every semester, usually keeping and rewording 1/3-1/2 of the items, and making up or using the other items from the test banks I have. The essays stay the same from semester to semester. I figure if they are looking at old tests, seeing the essays and thinking about them, that's a learning process. If I give take home exams, they are fill in the blank and essays. This semester I have experimented with using T/F items on pop quizzes only. My quizzes are open book. Hope this helps. Nancy Melucci East Los Angeles College Monterey Park, CA
