Re: [tips] B vitamins, Alzheimer's, and telling the whole story
Snake oil,snakoil,snake oil. Michael --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=4724 or send a blank email to leave-4724-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] TIPSTER OF THE WEEK
Yo Fike: It's a 'K' On 9/10/2010 7:54 PM, michael sylvester wrote: ANNETTE FUJAWSKI TAYLOR Michael "omnicentric" Sylvester,PhD Daytona Beach,Florida --- --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=4723 or send a blank email to leave-4723-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
[tips] Ronald Reagan 101 for Gainesville participants
TRUST BUT VERIFY! Michael "omnicentric" Sylvester,PhD Daytona Beach,Florida --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=4722 or send a blank email to leave-4722-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
[tips] TIPSTER OF THE WEEK
ANNETTE FUJAWSKI TAYLOR Michael "omnicentric" Sylvester,PhD Daytona Beach,Florida --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=4721 or send a blank email to leave-4721-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] B vitamins, Alzheimer's, and telling the whole story
On 10 Sep 2010 at 3:08, Allen Esterson wrote: > > Query re cognitive impairment: Is it possible that previous studies > showing some correlation between brain atrophy and the likelihood of > developing Alzheimer's is relevant to the claims? > > http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/132/8/2026.short > > http://radiology.rsna.org/content/229/3/691.full > Interesting. But "predictive" is not the same as "causes". And note that while they're happy to tell us about this encouraging- sounding correlation, they're somehow unable to provide a clear statement that they failed to find a difference between placebo and drug. The larger point is not that they can't be allowed some wiggle room. It may well be that their sample size was too small to detect a cognitive effect, or that they didn't continue the trial long enough (However, I understand that the prior evidence for B- vitamins for Alzheimer's is not encouraging.) No, the problem is that they instead buried this inconvenient finding. Imagine that they did find a positive effect. Would you find a similar reticence to mention it alongside the brain results? I won't hold my breath waiting for those promised negative "findings to be reported separately". But even if they do appear, how much publicity do you think they will generate split off from the rest of the study? I now see that _New Scientist_ (NS) has also expressed reservations about the study, but I'd say they got it wrong. (See http://tinyurl.com/NewScientisttake ). NS complained that the sample was too small for the brain atrophy results. Actually, getting an effect with a small sample means the finding must be robust. Also, as we're not talking about a clinical drug effect, criticizing Smith et al by saying the absolute difference in atrophy size is small is not a persuasive criticism. But NS do incorrectly say that no cognitive tests were done. This makes my point. Smith et al's write-up seems to have misled them. Bottom line: If you say in advance that cognitive changes are one of your primary outcome measures (and you should), you'd better report 'em, even if you don't like the way they turned out. And even if doing so will dampen enthusiasm for buying said vitamins. Stephen Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca 2600 College St. Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7 Canada --- --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=4718 or send a blank email to leave-4718-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] B vitamins, Alzheimer's, and telling the whole story
Nice.
Also to note: is this surprising? Don't we know that Korsakoff's causes brain
atrophy because of a lack of B1?
At least, that's what I learned back in the old days...
m
--
Marc Carter, PhD
Associate Professor and Chair
Department of Psychology
College of Arts & Sciences
Baker University
--
> -Original Message-
> From: sbl...@ubishops.ca [mailto:sbl...@ubishops.ca]
> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 12:46 AM
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: [tips] B vitamins, Alzheimer's, and telling the whole story
>
> Our CTV television network, which prides itself in presenting
> the very latest in medical advances, adequate evidence or
> not, had another one tonight. A randomized controlled study
> which showed that a 2-year regimen of B vitamins in the
> elderly with mild cognitive impairment slows the rate of
> MRI-assessed brain atrophy.
>
> But funny, I said to my wife, there's no mention of cognitive
> improvement. Surely in a clinical study of this size and
> sophistication, not to mention expense, they would measure
> cognition before and after treatment. And if they did,
> wouldn't they be bound to mention the outcome? Think again.
>
> The study turns out to be Smith et al (2010). They took a
> battery of cognitive measures, all right, but there was
> nothing in the methods I could see noting that they took
> these measures after treatment as well as before. But
> apparently they did.
>
> Buried in a section labeled "secondary outcomes" was this
> statement "Although the study was not powered to detect an
> effect of treatment on cognition (findings to be reported
> separately), in a post hoc analysis we noted that final
> cognitive test scores were correlated to rate of atrophy".
>
> My translation: We didn't find any difference between placebo
> and vitamin treatments in cognition, so we did what we could
> to put a positive spin on this, and also to forget about it.
> Anyway, if we had more subjects, we might have seen something
> (the "not powered" excuse).
>
> They provide a brief similar excuse ("not powered to detect
> effects of treatment on cognitive test scores") in a later
> section titled "Possible therapeutic implications". No data,
> of course.
>
> But curiously, if one goes to where they registered their
> trial before it began, they specified that in their study a
> "primary outcome measure" was "Changes in performance on a
> variety of cognitive tests". Nothing there about "not powered".
>
> See:
> http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN94410159/94410159
>
> So it seems that in their haste to get out the good news
> (vitamins slow brain atrophy, which is indeed impressive),
> they somehow avoided providing the bad news (no detectable
> effect on cognition). Perhaps providing it would tend to
> dampen sales for the products for which Dr. Smith is listed
> as inventor with patents held by the University of Oxford and
> on which he "could benefit financially" (see "competing interests").
>
>
> Stephen
>
>
> Smith, A. et al (2010). Homocysteine-lowering by B vitamins
> slows the rate of accelerated brain atrophy in mild cognitive
> impairment: a randomized controlled tria. PLoS ONE, September
> 2010, v. 5, issue 9, e1244
>
> Available here:
> http://tinyurl.com/Bvitamins-for-the-brain
>
>
> Stephen L. Black, Ph.D.
> Professor of Psychology, Emeritus
> Bishop's University
> e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca
> 2600 College St.
> Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7
> Canada
> --
> -
>
> ---
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[tips] They Too Died That Day
An article in the NY Times focuses on one family that deals with their grief over the loss of a father and husband in the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center. How they have dealth with the attack and the aftermath should give us and, if we share with our students, pause. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/nyregion/10muslim.html?_r=1&th=&emc=th&pagewanted=all The fact that the family is Muslim would be incidental except for the recent madness manifesting itself in U.S. religious and political circles. I wonder what critical thinking lessons psychologists will teach about this madness? -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=4705 or send a blank email to leave-4705-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] B vitamins, Alzheimer's, and telling the whole story
And some continue to wonder why the public is losing its trust in science ...
Miguel
- Original Message -
From: sbl...@ubishops.ca
To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)"
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 1:46:15 AM
Subject: [tips] B vitamins, Alzheimer's, and telling the whole story
Our CTV television network, which prides itself in presenting the
very latest in medical advances, adequate evidence or not, had
another one tonight. A randomized controlled study which
showed that a 2-year regimen of B vitamins in the elderly with
mild cognitive impairment slows the rate of MRI-assessed brain
atrophy.
But funny, I said to my wife, there's no mention of cognitive
improvement. Surely in a clinical study of this size and
sophistication, not to mention expense, they would measure
cognition before and after treatment. And if they did, wouldn't
they be bound to mention the outcome? Think again.
The study turns out to be Smith et al (2010). They took a battery
of cognitive measures, all right, but there was nothing in the
methods I could see noting that they took these measures after
treatment as well as before. But apparently they did.
Buried in a section labeled "secondary outcomes" was this
statement "Although the study was not powered to detect an
effect of treatment on cognition (findings to be reported
separately), in a post hoc analysis we noted that final cognitive
test scores were correlated to rate of atrophy".
My translation: We didn't find any difference between placebo
and vitamin treatments in cognition, so we did what we could to
put a positive spin on this, and also to forget about it. Anyway, if
we had more subjects, we might have seen something (the "not
powered" excuse).
They provide a brief similar excuse ("not powered to detect
effects of treatment on cognitive test scores") in a later section
titled "Possible therapeutic implications". No data, of course.
But curiously, if one goes to where they registered their trial
before it began, they specified that in their study a "primary
outcome measure" was "Changes in performance on a variety
of cognitive tests". Nothing there about "not powered".
See:
http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN94410159/94410159
So it seems that in their haste to get out the good news
(vitamins slow brain atrophy, which is indeed impressive), they
somehow avoided providing the bad news (no detectable effect
on cognition). Perhaps providing it would tend to dampen sales
for the products for which Dr. Smith is listed as inventor with
patents held by the University of Oxford and on which he "could
benefit financially" (see "competing interests").
Stephen
Smith, A. et al (2010). Homocysteine-lowering by B vitamins
slows the rate of accelerated brain atrophy in mild cognitive
impairment: a randomized controlled tria. PLoS ONE,
September 2010, v. 5, issue 9, e1244
Available here:
http://tinyurl.com/Bvitamins-for-the-brain
Stephen L. Black, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Emeritus
Bishop's University
e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca
2600 College St.
Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7
Canada
---
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Re: [tips] B vitamins, Alzheimer's, and telling the whole story
Stephen: Thanks for your analysis of the B vitamins and Alzheimer's
study as reported.
Query re cognitive impairment: Is it possible that previous studies
showing some correlation between brain atrophy and the likelihood of
developing Alzheimer's is relevant to the claims?
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/132/8/2026.short
http://radiology.rsna.org/content/229/3/691.full
Allen Esterson
Former lecturer, Science Department
Southwark College, London
allenester...@compuserve.com
http://www.esterson.org
---
[tips] B vitamins, Alzheimer's, and telling the whole story
sblack
Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:46:47 -0700
Our CTV television network, which prides itself in presenting the
very latest in medical advances, adequate evidence or not, had
another one tonight. A randomized controlled study which
showed that a 2-year regimen of B vitamins in the elderly with
mild cognitive impairment slows the rate of MRI-assessed brain
atrophy.
But funny, I said to my wife, there's no mention of cognitive
improvement. Surely in a clinical study of this size and
sophistication, not to mention expense, they would measure
cognition before and after treatment. And if they did, wouldn't
they be bound to mention the outcome? Think again.
The study turns out to be Smith et al (2010). They took a battery
of cognitive measures, all right, but there was nothing in the
methods I could see noting that they took these measures after
treatment as well as before. But apparently they did.
Buried in a section labeled "secondary outcomes" was this
statement "Although the study was not powered to detect an
effect of treatment on cognition (findings to be reported
separately), in a post hoc analysis we noted that final cognitive
test scores were correlated to rate of atrophy".
My translation: We didn't find any difference between placebo
and vitamin treatments in cognition, so we did what we could to
put a positive spin on this, and also to forget about it. Anyway, if
we had more subjects, we might have seen something (the "not
powered" excuse).
They provide a brief similar excuse ("not powered to detect
effects of treatment on cognitive test scores") in a later section
titled "Possible therapeutic implications". No data, of course.
But curiously, if one goes to where they registered their trial
before it began, they specified that in their study a "primary
outcome measure" was "Changes in performance on a variety
of cognitive tests". Nothing there about "not powered".
See:
http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN94410159/94410159
So it seems that in their haste to get out the good news
(vitamins slow brain atrophy, which is indeed impressive), they
somehow avoided providing the bad news (no detectable effect
on cognition). Perhaps providing it would tend to dampen sales
for the products for which Dr. Smith is listed as inventor with
patents held by the University of Oxford and on which he "could
benefit financially" (see "competing interests").
Stephen
Smith, A. et al (2010). Homocysteine-lowering by B vitamins
slows the rate of accelerated brain atrophy in mild cognitive
impairment: a randomized controlled tria. PLoS ONE,
September 2010, v. 5, issue 9, e1244
Available here:
http://tinyurl.com/Bvitamins-for-the-brain
Stephen L. Black, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Emeritus
Bishop's University
e-mail: sblack at ubishops.ca
2600 College St.
Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7
Canada
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