Re: [tips] Gender Roles in Homosexual Relationships
In response to Beth’s note about: why humans feel the need to categorize and break groups down into subcategories. I guess the psychological need for categories is especially acute when it comes to sexual matters. We’re so anxious about sex as it is and as the lines blur between what have long been two easily distinguishable categories (male/female) I would expect the need for categories would rise, if only so we can better understand (and explain to our students) what the differences are between people with different orientations, behaviors, etc. As the the next comment points out: in general, today's gay and lesbian communities are characterized by a kaleidoscopic variety of types and a generally more playful attitude toward gender. Self-identified butch and femme lesbians still exist, but the rules have loosened. No one would be surprised to see two butch or two femme lesbians forming a couple, for example. Regarding “…a playful attitude towards gender”: I find that my gay friends (typical caveats: small sample size, confirmation bias, etc., etc.) do indeed seem to be more playful/tolerant about the variety of sexual behaviors we see today. There’s almost a “Isn’t that quaint” response among young people (especially gays?) when they see the stereotypical male/female roles in heterosexual couples. McCreary (1994) pointed out how men who appear effeminate are more likely to be perceived as gay, while women who have masculine traits may be less likely to be seen as gay. An interesting observation. Made in 1994 but still true - we allow women more leeway in how they express themselves than we do men. Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: @mbritt On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:08 PM, Beth Benoit beth.ben...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry to be so late to respond to this thread but I just returned from a long weekend (and a drive through horrible weather) but returned safely to New Hampshire. (Phew!) I have taught a course in Human Sexuality for a while, and offer this research... First, from the text I use (by Simon LeVay and Janice Baldwin, 2012): During the 20th century, the diversity of gay people became much more apparent (Faderman, 1991; Chauncey, 1994). To accommodate this recognition, a new idea took hold - that there are two kinds of lesbians and two kinds of gay men. The two kinds of lesbians were called butch and femme: The butch lesbians looked, dressed, and acted like men and took a dominant role in sex, while the femme lesbians were like heterosexual women and took a submissive role in sex. A lesbian couple would consist of a butch-femme pair. Similarly, gay men were thought to be of two kinds, sometimes referred to as tops and bottoms: Tops were defined by a preference for the insertive role in anal intercourse and were relatively masculine and dominant generally, while bottoms preferred the receptive role and were more feminine. With this thinking, lesbian and gay male relationships were regularized. Although they were same-sex relationships, they mimicked heterosexual relationships in the sense that they were formed by the union of a more masculine-gendered and a more feminine-gendered partner. This general conception of gay sexuality persisted through the 1950s and was very much part of gay and lesbian culture. According to an oral history of mid-2oth century lesbian life in Buffalo, New York, young, working-class women who entered the lesbian culture had to first figure out whether they were butch or femme. After this fateful decision was made, all their relationships, social roles, and sexual behaviors were governed by their identity as one or the other (Kennedy Davis, 1983). To some degree, this culture of complementary gender types still exists today. The 10-year-old son of a lesbian couple living in Decatur, Georgia, put it this way: One of my moms id kind of like my dad, and my other mom is the girly mom (Bagby, 2008). But in general, today's gay and lesbian communities are characterized by a kaleidoscopic variety of types and a generally more playful attitude toward gender. Self-identified butch and femme lesbians still exist, but the rules have loosened. No one would be surprised to see two butch or two femme lesbians forming a couple, for example. In addition, the lesbian/straight and gay/straight dichotomies are themselves under siege, especially among women. While some women remain out-and-out lesbians, others move fluidly between relationships with both men and women (Diamond, 2008). Of course, one might call these women bisexuals...rather than lesbians. However, they may reject any such labels themselves, preferring to define their sexual desires in terms of the specific people they are attracted to, rather than by overall classes of partners. This may help
Re: [tips] Gender Roles in Homosexual Relationships
Great post Beth. Thanks. It has been a while since I taught such a class, but these are often questions that develop. I am now covering this in my Soc. Psych class, but they are more timid. TIPS needs facebook page...then I would just like Beth's post lol. G.L. (Gary) Peterson,Ph.D Psychology@SVSU On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Beth Benoit beth.ben...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry to be so late to respond to this thread but I just returned from a long weekend (and a drive through horrible weather) but returned safely to New Hampshire. (Phew!) I have taught a course in Human Sexuality for a while, and offer this research... First, from the text I use (by Simon LeVay and Janice Baldwin, 2012): During the 20th century, the diversity of gay people became much more apparent (Faderman, 1991; Chauncey, 1994). To accommodate this recognition, a new idea took hold - that there are two kinds of lesbians and two kinds of gay men. The two kinds of lesbians were called butch and femme: The butch lesbians looked, dressed, and acted like men and took a dominant role in sex, while the femme lesbians were like heterosexual women and took a submissive role in sex. A lesbian couple would consist of a butch-femme pair. Similarly, gay men were thought to be of two kinds, sometimes referred to as tops and bottoms: Tops were defined by a preference for the insertive role in anal intercourse and were relatively masculine and dominant generally, while bottoms preferred the receptive role and were more feminine. With this thinking, lesbian and gay male relationships were regularized. Although they were same-sex relationships, they mimicked heterosexual relationships in the sense that they were formed by the union of a more masculine-gendered and a more feminine-gendered partner. This general conception of gay sexuality persisted through the 1950s and was very much part of gay and lesbian culture. According to an oral history of mid-2oth century lesbian life in Buffalo, New York, young, working-class women who entered the lesbian culture had to first figure out whether they were butch or femme. After this fateful decision was made, all their relationships, social roles, and sexual behaviors were governed by their identity as one or the other (Kennedy Davis, 1983). To some degree, this culture of complementary gender types still exists today. The 10-year-old son of a lesbian couple living in Decatur, Georgia, put it this way: One of my moms id kind of like my dad, and my other mom is the girly mom (Bagby, 2008). But in general, today's gay and lesbian communities are characterized by a kaleidoscopic variety of types and a generally more playful attitude toward gender. Self-identified butch and femme lesbians still exist, but the rules have loosened. No one would be surprised to see two butch or two femme lesbians forming a couple, for example. In addition, the lesbian/straight and gay/straight dichotomies are themselves under siege, especially among women. While some women remain out-and-out lesbians, others move fluidly between relationships with both men and women (Diamond, 2008). Of course, one might call these women bisexuals...rather than lesbians. However, they may reject any such labels themselves, preferring to define their sexual desires in terms of the specific people they are attracted to, rather than by overall classes of partners. This may help explain why over 2% of the women in the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior (NSSHB) survey...described themselves as something else rather than gay, bisexual, or straight. Thus, they challenge the centrality of sexual orientation as we currently define it. Some other thoughts on the subject were first offered by Donald McCreary in 1994. (Rhoda Unger discusses his work in another text I've used when teaching Psychology of Women (the text is called The Psychology of Women and Gender). McCreary pointed out how men who appear effeminate are more likely to be perceived as gay, while women who have masculine traits may be less likely to be seen as gay. I know this isn't exactly the point Michael was considering, but I always thought it was interesting, nonetheless. As you may have concluded from LeVay and Baldwin's description, the whole concept of butch and femme is controversial, but still evolving. There are still strong butch movements (here's a newsletter that has much of interest http://www.butchvoices.com/category/announcements/page/2/ ) and the idea that using/thinking of gays as butch and/or femme is not totally unacceptable to the gay community, nor is it necessarily outdated. That said, I also want to stress that, as with any other person or group, many understandably rebel against the idea that they be defined or labeled. After pondering all of this, I wonder if another concept you might
Re: [tips] Gender Roles in Homosexual Relationships
Sorry to be so late to respond to this thread but I just returned from a long weekend (and a drive through horrible weather) but returned safely to New Hampshire. (Phew!) I have taught a course in Human Sexuality for a while, and offer this research... First, from the text I use (by Simon LeVay and Janice Baldwin, 2012): During the 20th century, the diversity of gay people became much more apparent (Faderman, 1991; Chauncey, 1994). To accommodate this recognition, a new idea took hold - that there are two kinds of lesbians and two kinds of gay men. The two kinds of lesbians were called *butch *and *femme*: The butch lesbians looked, dressed, and acted like men and took a dominant role in sex, while the femme lesbians were like heterosexual women and took a submissive role in sex. A lesbian couple would consist of a butch-femme pair. Similarly, gay men were thought to be of two kinds, sometimes referred to as tops and bottoms: Tops were defined by a preference for the insertive role in anal intercourse and were relatively masculine and dominant generally, while bottoms preferred the receptive role and were more feminine. With this thinking, lesbian and gay male relationships were regularized. Although they were same-sex relationships, they mimicked heterosexual relationships in the sense that they were formed by the union of a more masculine-gendered and a more feminine-gendered partner. This general conception of gay sexuality persisted through the 1950s and was very much part of gay and lesbian culture. According to an oral history of mid-2oth century lesbian life in Buffalo, New York, young, working-class women who entered the lesbian culture had to first figure out whether they were butch or femme. After this fateful decision was made, all their relationships, social roles, and sexual behaviors were governed by their identity as one or the other (Kennedy Davis, 1983). To some degree, this culture of complementary gender types still exists today. The 10-year-old son of a lesbian couple living in Decatur, Georgia, put it this way: One of my moms id kind of like my dad, and my other mom is the girly mom (Bagby, 2008). But in general, today's gay and lesbian communities are characterized by a kaleidoscopic variety of types and a generally more playful attitude toward gender. Self-identified butch and femme lesbians still exist, but the rules have loosened. No one would be surprised to see two butch or two femme lesbians forming a couple, for example. In addition, the lesbian/straight and gay/straight dichotomies are themselves under siege, especially among women. While some women remain out-and-out lesbians, others move fluidly between relationships with both men and women (Diamond, 2008). Of course, one might call these women bisexuals...rather than lesbians. However, they may reject any such labels themselves, preferring to define their sexual desires in terms of the specific people they are attracted to, rather than by overall classes of partners. This may help explain why over 2% of the women in the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior (NSSHB) survey...described themselves as something else rather than gay, bisexual, or straight. Thus, they challenge the centrality of sexual orientation as we currently define it. Some other thoughts on the subject were first offered by Donald McCreary in 1994. (Rhoda Unger discusses his work in another text I've used when teaching Psychology of Women (the text is called *The Psychology of Women and Gender)*. McCreary pointed out how men who appear effeminate are more likely to be perceived as gay, while women who have masculine traits may be less likely to be seen as gay. I know this isn't exactly the point Michael was considering, but I always thought it was interesting, nonetheless. As you may have concluded from LeVay and Baldwin's description, the whole concept of butch and femme is controversial, but still evolving. There are still strong butch movements (here's a newsletter that has much of interest http://www.butchvoices.com/category/announcements/page/2/ ) and the idea that using/thinking of gays as butch and/or femme is not totally unacceptable to the gay community, nor is it necessarily outdated. That said, I also want to stress that, as with any other person or group, many understandably rebel against the idea that they be defined or labeled. After pondering all of this, I wonder if another concept you might want to consider, Michael, is why humans feel the need to categorize and break groups down into subcategories. Ah, I think I see another thread forming. At least, in the old days, that would have happened on TIPS. Beth Benoit Plymouth State University Plymouth NH On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Britt mich...@thepsychfiles.com wrote: Can anyone point me to research on the topic of whether or not homosexual couples tend to “take on” the typical male and female roles that we see in
Re: [tips] Gender Roles in Homosexual Relationships
Thanks, Gary. I like that Michael Britt gave me the opportunity to present this interesting concept. I hope I did it justice. Beth Benoit Plymouth State University Plymouth NH On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Gerald Peterson peter...@svsu.edu wrote: Great post Beth. Thanks. It has been a while since I taught such a class, but these are often questions that develop. I am now covering this in my Soc. Psych class, but they are more timid. TIPS needs facebook page...then I would just like Beth's post lol. G.L. (Gary) Peterson,Ph.D Psychology@SVSU On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Beth Benoit beth.ben...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry to be so late to respond to this thread but I just returned from a long weekend (and a drive through horrible weather) but returned safely to New Hampshire. (Phew!) I have taught a course in Human Sexuality for a while, and offer this research... First, from the text I use (by Simon LeVay and Janice Baldwin, 2012): During the 20th century, the diversity of gay people became much more apparent (Faderman, 1991; Chauncey, 1994). To accommodate this recognition, a new idea took hold - that there are two kinds of lesbians and two kinds of gay men. The two kinds of lesbians were called *butch *and *femme*: The butch lesbians looked, dressed, and acted like men and took a dominant role in sex, while the femme lesbians were like heterosexual women and took a submissive role in sex. A lesbian couple would consist of a butch-femme pair. Similarly, gay men were thought to be of two kinds, sometimes referred to as tops and bottoms: Tops were defined by a preference for the insertive role in anal intercourse and were relatively masculine and dominant generally, while bottoms preferred the receptive role and were more feminine. With this thinking, lesbian and gay male relationships were regularized. Although they were same-sex relationships, they mimicked heterosexual relationships in the sense that they were formed by the union of a more masculine-gendered and a more feminine-gendered partner. This general conception of gay sexuality persisted through the 1950s and was very much part of gay and lesbian culture. According to an oral history of mid-2oth century lesbian life in Buffalo, New York, young, working-class women who entered the lesbian culture had to first figure out whether they were butch or femme. After this fateful decision was made, all their relationships, social roles, and sexual behaviors were governed by their identity as one or the other (Kennedy Davis, 1983). To some degree, this culture of complementary gender types still exists today. The 10-year-old son of a lesbian couple living in Decatur, Georgia, put it this way: One of my moms id kind of like my dad, and my other mom is the girly mom (Bagby, 2008). But in general, today's gay and lesbian communities are characterized by a kaleidoscopic variety of types and a generally more playful attitude toward gender. Self-identified butch and femme lesbians still exist, but the rules have loosened. No one would be surprised to see two butch or two femme lesbians forming a couple, for example. In addition, the lesbian/straight and gay/straight dichotomies are themselves under siege, especially among women. While some women remain out-and-out lesbians, others move fluidly between relationships with both men and women (Diamond, 2008). Of course, one might call these women bisexuals...rather than lesbians. However, they may reject any such labels themselves, preferring to define their sexual desires in terms of the specific people they are attracted to, rather than by overall classes of partners. This may help explain why over 2% of the women in the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior (NSSHB) survey...described themselves as something else rather than gay, bisexual, or straight. Thus, they challenge the centrality of sexual orientation as we currently define it. Some other thoughts on the subject were first offered by Donald McCreary in 1994. (Rhoda Unger discusses his work in another text I've used when teaching Psychology of Women (the text is called *The Psychology of Women and Gender)*. McCreary pointed out how men who appear effeminate are more likely to be perceived as gay, while women who have masculine traits may be less likely to be seen as gay. I know this isn't exactly the point Michael was considering, but I always thought it was interesting, nonetheless. As you may have concluded from LeVay and Baldwin's description, the whole concept of butch and femme is controversial, but still evolving. There are still strong butch movements (here's a newsletter that has much of interest http://www.butchvoices.com/category/announcements/page/2/ ) and the idea that using/thinking of gays as butch and/or femme is not totally unacceptable to the gay community, nor is it necessarily outdated. That said, I
[tips] Gender Roles in Homosexual Relationships
Can anyone point me to research on the topic of whether or not homosexual couples tend to “take on” the typical male and female roles that we see in heterosexual couples? When people see homosexual couples, they seem to ask a question like “Well, which one is ‘the guy’?” Michael Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: @mbritt --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@mail-archive.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=41908 or send a blank email to leave-41908-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
