RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
Now the question should be: does Tomcat 4 have the potential to be ready for primetime? The answer to that is yes, and it may take a few maintenance releases of mod_webapp and Tomcat 4x to get there. Right now, the architecture is much better (in my opinion) then Tomcat 3.x and you can find some good articles on the web on creating applications. And Resin is a great product. I used it in development. And Jboss is a good EJB server. Some people are using it now with Tomcat, and others take a wait and see as the releases continue to improve. The real test is to try Tomcat, Resin, and Weblogic in your environment, and see how each handles the job. Now Postgresql is a great database, but mysql is much better with release 4x. Again, you can run both and see how they hold up. -Original Message- From: J. Eric Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Greetings, I'm getting ready to put specs together on a load balanced cluster designed around open source software, and the time has come to decide what JSP/Servlet engine we're going to use. Up until this point we've used Weblogic for industrial strength web app development and we've been very happy with everything but the price ($10k per cluster node). Now we've got a client who wants to demonstrate open source and at the same time try and keep all the software free as possible. We've selected PostgreSQL as our backend database, and we're using Apache 1.3.22 on Linux with the latest stable kernel. So, to the point: is Tomcat4 ready to play with the big boys? Granted, we're not expecting all the bells and whistles of Weblogic (or speed, for that matter), but what about stability and ease of use? I've downloaded Tomcat4 and installed it, along with the bastard child called mod_webapp, which I have never gotten to work properly. I've read an awful lot of horror stories in this forum that really make me think that Tomcat4 is not ready to take this mantle. The documentation is attrocious. Can I really trust a business app (albeit a small one) to this? I've been looking at non-freeware alternatives like Resin, and the polish shows. Resin's install is flawless, the documentation is rich and complete, and unlike mod_webapp, it works without having to sacrifice any small furry animals or limb detaching. I'm a Systems Engineering guy, not a programmer, so I don't have time to figure out the intricacies and pitfalls that Tomcat4 seems to want me to go through. To me, Java is something that the other guys down the hall program on. I'm just responsible for picking the hardware, OS, the app environment, and then making it all run happily together. The Java guys simply don't care what engine I use, so somebody out there speak up: is Tomcat4 ready for prime time production? If not, how soon? And if not soon, what about alternatives that are either free or available for under $2000 per node? Many thanks to all. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
Hello, I'm involved in developing a large B2B web application. I'd like to know what you end up doing, Web logic's price seems to be way to high to ask a customer to purchase it. We are looking at open source too. Carl -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
Hi, I currently work in an ISP, we are using Tomcat exclusively to handle ALL our JSP / Servlet EJB apps, we have never seen an outage due to tomcat, and the performace has never given us reason to be concerned. TC4 is currently being used to provide B2B services to clients on a fairly small scale, however the server loads indicate that scaling would not present any significant problems. (No complaints yet) The TC4 architecture seems to be more flexible than previous releases. However, I have been migrating some of our systems to tomcat4 from tc3 and have come across a few teething problems. I'm sure these will be worked out in few maintenance releases, It's a case of suck it and see. 28/11/2001 14:47:26, Carl Boudreau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I'm involved in developing a large B2B web application. I'd like to know what you end up doing, Web logic's price seems to be way to high to ask a customer to purchase it. We are looking at open source too. Carl -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
Well, Tomcat obviously has potential but I'm interested in the here and now. All of the benchmarks that I've seen thus far have shown TC4 to be vastly inferior (by a factor of 10) compared to the commercial servlet engines. Of course, these benches were published BY those vendors, so I take them with a grain of salt, but I haven't seen any benches from the TC group, so I have nothing to compare. Speed issues along with the horrific documentation and poor functionality of mod_webapp (or poor documentation/difficulty of configuring mod_jk) make me very apprehensive of starting project with TC4/mod_webapp at the core. I was hoping someone in this forum could convince me otherwise, but I haven't seen anything encouraging thus far, mostly folks saying wait a bit and it'll be great. I've got a project NOW and I can't afford to wait. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Kemp Randy-W18971 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Now the question should be: does Tomcat 4 have the potential to be ready for primetime? The answer to that is yes, and it may take a few maintenance releases of mod_webapp and Tomcat 4x to get there. Right now, the architecture is much better (in my opinion) then Tomcat 3.x and you can find some good articles on the web on creating applications. And Resin is a great product. I used it in development. And Jboss is a good EJB server. Some people are using it now with Tomcat, and others take a wait and see as the releases continue to improve. The real test is to try Tomcat, Resin, and Weblogic in your environment, and see how each handles the job. Now Postgresql is a great database, but mysql is much better with release 4x. Again, you can run both and see how they hold up. -Original Message- From: J. Eric Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Greetings, I'm getting ready to put specs together on a load balanced cluster designed around open source software, and the time has come to decide what JSP/Servlet engine we're going to use. Up until this point we've used Weblogic for industrial strength web app development and we've been very happy with everything but the price ($10k per cluster node). Now we've got a client who wants to demonstrate open source and at the same time try and keep all the software free as possible. We've selected PostgreSQL as our backend database, and we're using Apache 1.3.22 on Linux with the latest stable kernel. So, to the point: is Tomcat4 ready to play with the big boys? Granted, we're not expecting all the bells and whistles of Weblogic (or speed, for that matter), but what about stability and ease of use? I've downloaded Tomcat4 and installed it, along with the bastard child called mod_webapp, which I have never gotten to work properly. I've read an awful lot of horror stories in this forum that really make me think that Tomcat4 is not ready to take this mantle. The documentation is attrocious. Can I really trust a business app (albeit a small one) to this? I've been looking at non-freeware alternatives like Resin, and the polish shows. Resin's install is flawless, the documentation is rich and complete, and unlike mod_webapp, it works without having to sacrifice any small furry animals or limb detaching. I'm a Systems Engineering guy, not a programmer, so I don't have time to figure out the intricacies and pitfalls that Tomcat4 seems to want me to go through. To me, Java is something that the other guys down the hall program on. I'm just responsible for picking the hardware, OS, the app environment, and then making it all run happily together. The Java guys simply don't care what engine I use, so somebody out there speak up: is Tomcat4 ready for prime time production? If not, how soon? And if not soon, what about alternatives that are either free or available for under $2000 per node? Many thanks to all. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
Resin is looking like a good candidate for now because the project qualifies as a free project under the licensing terms. It's for a non-profit entity and is intended to be largely an open source technology demonstrator. If you're doing a large B2B app you wouldn't get it for free, but Resin costs (I think) $2500 per license so it's much cheaper than Weblogic. We've had relatively good luck with Websphere and IBM's pricing (if you get their DB2 bundle) is very good. We didn't particularly like DB2, however, as we generally have used Oracle. No probs with DB2, just different. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Carl Boudreau [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:47 AM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Hello, I'm involved in developing a large B2B web application. I'd like to know what you end up doing, Web logic's price seems to be way to high to ask a customer to purchase it. We are looking at open source too. Carl -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
now. All of the benchmarks that I've seen thus far have shown TC4 to be vastly inferior (by a factor of 10) compared to the commercial servlet Try tomcat 3.3, and sorry for jump in the thread..;) Saludos , Ignacio J. Ortega -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
I'd love to be able to wait around for TC4 to get stable, but I have to make a decision within a week or so, and I don't think anything major is going to happen in that timeframe. I've heard the same thing many places: TC is being used for small scale stuff. I need something that's going to show scalability in a big way, as this is going to start out very, very tiny and may ultimately grow to something huge (think billion dollar revenues and you know what I mean). TC may be fine to play with right now, but can I trust it to something that's got to run 24x7x365 for 50,000 users a year from now? If mod_webapp is the best they can do, then the Apache group has a LOT of work to do. Further, I'd like to comment on what stable ought to mean. For Tomcat, stable apparently means that if you can get it to work, it will usually work somewhat okay. Gee, I'd hate to see what the development stuff means. Stable should mean production ready. I mean Apache-like stablity, with good docs and modules that actually function as advertised. Mod_webapp has left an awful taste in my mouth after working with REAL production-ready connector modules like mod_weblogic. If the whole project was listed in beta status, I'd be more forgiving, but the current state is not anywhere near what I'd call production. Maybe TC3x is, but not TC4, not if you plan to attach it to a real webserver (use mod_jk? Sure, where are the docs? OHH! In the TC3x docs! Sure, THAT'S the logical place, right? And I'm sure it's been thoroughly tested, too). Read the TC4 docs and FAQ's and you'll find numerous references that indicate some function isn't yet implemented, or this doesn't work yet, or that'll be fixed sometime soon. That is intolerable for real business work. TC4 should not be listed as production ready in its current state. It's my opinion, and it may be wrong, but if someone is using TC4 and mod_webapp in a mission critical situation, I'd love to hear from them, because thus far I've heard nothing to convince me otherwise. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Alec Bickerton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:16 AM To: Tomcat User list Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Hi, I currently work in an ISP, we are using Tomcat exclusively to handle ALL our JSP / Servlet EJB apps, we have never seen an outage due to tomcat, and the performace has never given us reason to be concerned. TC4 is currently being used to provide B2B services to clients on a fairly small scale, however the server loads indicate that scaling would not present any significant problems. (No complaints yet) The TC4 architecture seems to be more flexible than previous releases. However, I have been migrating some of our systems to tomcat4 from tc3 and have come across a few teething problems. I'm sure these will be worked out in few maintenance releases, It's a case of suck it and see. 28/11/2001 14:47:26, Carl Boudreau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I'm involved in developing a large B2B web application. I'd like to know what you end up doing, Web logic's price seems to be way to high to ask a customer to purchase it. We are looking at open source too. Carl -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
All those things may very well be true re: TC4. However, if you're looking at billion dollar revenues and 24x7x265 for 50,000 users, the time you're spending researching Tomcat would have paid for WebLogic. Cough up the few grand per CPU for WebLogic and put yourself out of your misery. :) Donnie [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/28/01 10:34AM I'd love to be able to wait around for TC4 to get stable, but I have to make a decision within a week or so, and I don't think anything major is going to happen in that timeframe. I've heard the same thing many places: TC is being used for small scale stuff. I need something that's going to show scalability in a big way, as this is going to start out very, very tiny and may ultimately grow to something huge (think billion dollar revenues and you know what I mean). TC may be fine to play with right now, but can I trust it to something that's got to run 24x7x365 for 50,000 users a year from now? If mod_webapp is the best they can do, then the Apache group has a LOT of work to do. Further, I'd like to comment on what stable ought to mean. For Tomcat, stable apparently means that if you can get it to work, it will usually work somewhat okay. Gee, I'd hate to see what the development stuff means. Stable should mean production ready. I mean Apache-like stablity, with good docs and modules that actually function as advertised. Mod_webapp has left an awful taste in my mouth after working with REAL production-ready connector modules like mod_weblogic. If the whole project was listed in beta status, I'd be more forgiving, but the current state is not anywhere near what I'd call production. Maybe TC3x is, but not TC4, not if you plan to attach it to a real webserver (use mod_jk? Sure, where are the docs? OHH! In the TC3x docs! Sure, THAT'S the logical place, right? And I'm sure it's been thoroughly tested, too). Read the TC4 docs and FAQ's and you'll find numerous references that indicate some function isn't yet implemented, or this doesn't work yet, or that'll be fixed sometime soon. That is intolerable for real business work. TC4 should not be listed as production ready in its current state. It's my opinion, and it may be wrong, but if someone is using TC4 and mod_webapp in a mission critical situation, I'd love to hear from them, because thus far I've heard nothing to convince me otherwise. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Alec Bickerton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:16 AM To: Tomcat User list Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Hi, I currently work in an ISP, we are using Tomcat exclusively to handle ALL our JSP / Servlet EJB apps, we have never seen an outage due to tomcat, and the performace has never given us reason to be concerned. TC4 is currently being used to provide B2B services to clients on a fairly small scale, however the server loads indicate that scaling would not present any significant problems. (No complaints yet) The TC4 architecture seems to be more flexible than previous releases. However, I have been migrating some of our systems to tomcat4 from tc3 and have come across a few teething problems. I'm sure these will be worked out in few maintenance releases, It's a case of suck it and see. 28/11/2001 14:47:26, Carl Boudreau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I'm involved in developing a large B2B web application. I'd like to know what you end up doing, Web logic's price seems to be way to high to ask a customer to purchase it. We are looking at open source too. Carl -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles with the list: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
Here's my company's dilemna, which I'm sure is very similar to Mr. Smith's. Our production app is starting relatively small - 1 client with about 5,000 dedicated users - but may grow into 500,000 within months. I needed to find a CHEAP solution that is robust and reliable enough to handle the load until we can financially justify spending the money for a weblogic license or two. I was hoping and expecting TC4 to fill the slot. So far, I'm grossly disappointed and have backed down to either TC3.3 or Resin. Every point brought up by Mr. Smith should be looked at closely by the Jakarta/Tomcat development group. How can TC4 be released as Production with such poor and incomplete documentation??!! Tomcat doesn't consist of just the binaries, it's the whole package. Don't be a Microsoft and push something out the door before it's ready, it's only going to hurt the project. I feel I've wasted valuable time trying to get TC-4.0.1 working consistantly with Apache- 1.3.22. I was a huge fan of JServ and even TC3.2, but the latest Tomcat release has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. What's the point of this project if Tomcat's only good for Development use? I love you guys, but I'm frustrated and disappointed with this release. -Ken Quoting DONNIE HALE [EMAIL PROTECTED]: All those things may very well be true re: TC4. However, if you're looking at billion dollar revenues and 24x7x265 for 50,000 users, the time you're spending researching Tomcat would have paid for WebLogic. Cough up the few grand per CPU for WebLogic and put yourself out of your misery. :) Donnie [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/28/01 10:34AM I'd love to be able to wait around for TC4 to get stable, but I have to make a decision within a week or so, and I don't think anything major is going to happen in that timeframe. I've heard the same thing many places: TC is being used for small scale stuff. I need something that's going to show scalability in a big way, as this is going to start out very, very tiny and may ultimately grow to something huge (think billion dollar revenues and you know what I mean). TC may be fine to play with right now, but can I trust it to something that's got to run 24x7x365 for 50,000 users a year from now? If mod_webapp is the best they can do, then the Apache group has a LOT of work to do. Further, I'd like to comment on what stable ought to mean. For Tomcat, stable apparently means that if you can get it to work, it will usually work somewhat okay. Gee, I'd hate to see what the development stuff means. Stable should mean production ready. I mean Apache-like stablity, with good docs and modules that actually function as advertised. Mod_webapp has left an awful taste in my mouth after working with REAL production-ready connector modules like mod_weblogic. If the whole project was listed in beta status, I'd be more forgiving, but the current state is not anywhere near what I'd call production. Maybe TC3x is, but not TC4, not if you plan to attach it to a real webserver (use mod_jk? Sure, where are the docs? OHH! In the TC3x docs! Sure, THAT'S the logical place, right? And I'm sure it's been thoroughly tested, too). Read the TC4 docs and FAQ's and you'll find numerous references that indicate some function isn't yet implemented, or this doesn't work yet, or that'll be fixed sometime soon. That is intolerable for real business work. TC4 should not be listed as production ready in its current state. It's my opinion, and it may be wrong, but if someone is using TC4 and mod_webapp in a mission critical situation, I'd love to hear from them, because thus far I've heard nothing to convince me otherwise. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Alec Bickerton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:16 AM To: Tomcat User list Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Hi, I currently work in an ISP, we are using Tomcat exclusively to handle ALL our JSP / Servlet EJB apps, we have never seen an outage due to tomcat, and the performace has never given us reason to be concerned. TC4 is currently being used to provide B2B services to clients on a fairly small scale, however the server loads indicate that scaling would not present any significant problems. (No complaints yet) The TC4 architecture seems to be more flexible than previous releases. However, I have been migrating some of our systems to tomcat4 from tc3 and have come across a few teething problems. I'm sure these will be worked out in few maintenance releases, It's a case of suck it and see. 28/11/2001 14:47:26, Carl Boudreau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I'm involved in developing a large B2B web application. I'd like to know what you end up doing, Web logic's price seems to be way to high to ask
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
I'd love to cough up a few thousand for Weblogic, but at this stage of the project it's not funded beyond hardware costs. It's a technology demonstrator for a non-profit entity at this point and they don't have $20k for two Weblogic licenses. Six months from now might be a different story, and I'm strongly leaning towards that solution as a long-term thing. But if I can START with TC and KEEP TC, I'd like to. Switching platforms in the middle is a pain I'd like to avoid if possible. And there's no guarantee (especially in THIS economy) that this project will grow to billions of dollars and thousands of users. If it doesn't, the client doesn't want to be in the hole for two Weblogic licenses for a defunct site. And my time spent researching this is a freebie on this project. Pro bono stuff has unfortunately permeated our sales staff as a way to get follow-on sales. I don't agree with the practice, but I have to work within the framework given to me. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: DONNIE HALE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? All those things may very well be true re: TC4. However, if you're looking at billion dollar revenues and 24x7x265 for 50,000 users, the time you're spending researching Tomcat would have paid for WebLogic. Cough up the few grand per CPU for WebLogic and put yourself out of your misery. :) Donnie [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/28/01 10:34AM I'd love to be able to wait around for TC4 to get stable, but I have to make a decision within a week or so, and I don't think anything major is going to happen in that timeframe. I've heard the same thing many places: TC is being used for small scale stuff. I need something that's going to show scalability in a big way, as this is going to start out very, very tiny and may ultimately grow to something huge (think billion dollar revenues and you know what I mean). TC may be fine to play with right now, but can I trust it to something that's got to run 24x7x365 for 50,000 users a year from now? If mod_webapp is the best they can do, then the Apache group has a LOT of work to do. Further, I'd like to comment on what stable ought to mean. For Tomcat, stable apparently means that if you can get it to work, it will usually work somewhat okay. Gee, I'd hate to see what the development stuff means. Stable should mean production ready. I mean Apache-like stablity, with good docs and modules that actually function as advertised. Mod_webapp has left an awful taste in my mouth after working with REAL production-ready connector modules like mod_weblogic. If the whole project was listed in beta status, I'd be more forgiving, but the current state is not anywhere near what I'd call production. Maybe TC3x is, but not TC4, not if you plan to attach it to a real webserver (use mod_jk? Sure, where are the docs? OHH! In the TC3x docs! Sure, THAT'S the logical place, right? And I'm sure it's been thoroughly tested, too). Read the TC4 docs and FAQ's and you'll find numerous references that indicate some function isn't yet implemented, or this doesn't work yet, or that'll be fixed sometime soon. That is intolerable for real business work. TC4 should not be listed as production ready in its current state. It's my opinion, and it may be wrong, but if someone is using TC4 and mod_webapp in a mission critical situation, I'd love to hear from them, because thus far I've heard nothing to convince me otherwise. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Alec Bickerton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:16 AM To: Tomcat User list Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Hi, I currently work in an ISP, we are using Tomcat exclusively to handle ALL our JSP / Servlet EJB apps, we have never seen an outage due to tomcat, and the performace has never given us reason to be concerned. TC4 is currently being used to provide B2B services to clients on a fairly small scale, however the server loads indicate that scaling would not present any significant problems. (No complaints yet) The TC4 architecture seems to be more flexible than previous releases. However, I have been migrating some of our systems to tomcat4 from tc3 and have come across a few teething problems. I'm sure these will be worked out in few maintenance releases, It's a case of suck it and see. 28/11/2001 14:47:26, Carl Boudreau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I'm involved in developing a large B2B web application. I'd like to know what you end up doing, Web logic's price seems to be way to high to ask a customer to purchase it. We are looking at open source too. Carl -- To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Troubles
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
Ken, I couldn't have said it better. Our situations appear to be identical with regards to the client: small start with potential for huge growth. We've used TC3x in the past with mixed results, usually poor performance being the biggest gripe, and I've never been fond of the convoluted config issues between TC3x, mod_jk, and Apache. I'd spec Resin before I'd go back to TC3x. The Apache group should re-examine what constitutes production ready releases. If Java junkies want something to play with, TC4 seems to be just the thing for them. But for sysadmins and sysengineers, it means hours of frustration trying to get something to work, only to find out in the forums that it'll be fixed soon/that's not in this release/function not yet implemented/use an older module/the documentation isn't done/the docs are incorrect. I don't feel that this is asking a lot, even for a free project such as this. TC4 should not have been taken out of beta without the ENTIRE project being up to snuff. That includes dependent modules like mod_webapp AS WELL AS the documentation on TC4 and mod_webapp. After all, all the examples say use mod_webapp, but the forum recommends mod_jk because mod_webapp isn't stable/functional/documented enough. One only has to look at this very mailing list to see that the vast majority out there can't even get Tomcat/Apache to talk to one another without major headaches. It comprises about 70% of the posts here, so it's not just me. How do you expect someone to react who's used to Weblogic-levels of documentation and finish? And don't hand me the old you get what you pay for. Apache webserver has proven that you don't have to pay a lot to get a lot. Why they abandoned that for TC4 is beyond me. J. Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:11 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff? Here's my company's dilemna, which I'm sure is very similar to Mr. Smith's. Our production app is starting relatively small - 1 client with about 5,000 dedicated users - but may grow into 500,000 within months. I needed to find a CHEAP solution that is robust and reliable enough to handle the load until we can financially justify spending the money for a weblogic license or two. I was hoping and expecting TC4 to fill the slot. So far, I'm grossly disappointed and have backed down to either TC3.3 or Resin. Every point brought up by Mr. Smith should be looked at closely by the Jakarta/Tomcat development group. How can TC4 be released as Production with such poor and incomplete documentation??!! Tomcat doesn't consist of just the binaries, it's the whole package. Don't be a Microsoft and push something out the door before it's ready, it's only going to hurt the project. I feel I've wasted valuable time trying to get TC-4.0.1 working consistantly with Apache- 1.3.22. I was a huge fan of JServ and even TC3.2, but the latest Tomcat release has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. What's the point of this project if Tomcat's only good for Development use? I love you guys, but I'm frustrated and disappointed with this release. -Ken Quoting DONNIE HALE [EMAIL PROTECTED]: All those things may very well be true re: TC4. However, if you're looking at billion dollar revenues and 24x7x265 for 50,000 users, the time you're spending researching Tomcat would have paid for WebLogic. Cough up the few grand per CPU for WebLogic and put yourself out of your misery. :) Donnie [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/28/01 10:34AM I'd love to be able to wait around for TC4 to get stable, but I have to make a decision within a week or so, and I don't think anything major is going to happen in that timeframe. I've heard the same thing many places: TC is being used for small scale stuff. I need something that's going to show scalability in a big way, as this is going to start out very, very tiny and may ultimately grow to something huge (think billion dollar revenues and you know what I mean). TC may be fine to play with right now, but can I trust it to something that's got to run 24x7x365 for 50,000 users a year from now? If mod_webapp is the best they can do, then the Apache group has a LOT of work to do. Further, I'd like to comment on what stable ought to mean. For Tomcat, stable apparently means that if you can get it to work, it will usually work somewhat okay. Gee, I'd hate to see what the development stuff means. Stable should mean production ready. I mean Apache-like stablity, with good docs and modules that actually function as advertised. Mod_webapp has left an awful taste in my mouth after working with REAL production-ready connector modules like mod_weblogic. If the whole project was listed in beta status, I'd be more forgiving, but the current state
RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
speaking of tomcat 4. i've always loved the ease of use of tomcat until i tried tomcat 4. i deployed a simple web application and none of the servlet, jasper or catalina jar files seem to get loaded. i was surprised to see import javax.servlet.xxx ... not found when i tested a jsp page. do you have any idea why this would happen? i see the jar files in their respective lib directories? thanks, frank
