Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Cebik's paper on the counterpoise is interesting and perhaps useful, so far as it goes. I don't remember seeing any mention of voltage-fed antennas, however. If they are in that article, I missed them. Cebik mentions Woodrow Smith in connection with a 1948 antenna book. I don't know if this is the same 'Woody Smith', W6BCX, but I suspect it is. Woody Smith wrote an article in March 1948 CQ Magazine titled Bet My Money on a Bobtail Beam. In that article, he is somewhat vague about the ground return for the center element, but is very clear that 'not much' of a ground is needed. In his Feb/Mar 1983 HR Mag. reprise of the Bobtail/Half Square antennas, he refers to the desirability of a 'ground screen', refraining from calling this small, rectangular grid a 'counterpoise'. But that's what it is, in today's usage. I called it that in my Bobtail pages, and will likely continue doing so. http://www.angelfire.com/md/k3ky/page49.html Moxon, G6XN also refers extensively to the counterpoise in his favored half wave vertical antennas, and in his case, is talking about a pretty tiny piece of metal indeed. See HF Antennas For All Locations. by G6XN. Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a college professor- duh! He certainly knew his stuff, but his views were not necessarily global at all times. Perception colors our understanding of the world. Language is a living, growing thing. Cebik was probably right about the concept of the counterpoise having been 'muddied', but OTOH that horse is now long out of the barn. I very much doubt the word is going away any time soon, in ham 'circles'. Or squares or rectangles. Even elongated, skinny rectangles. I find K2AV's FCP (folded counterpoise) most intriguing, and I intend to give it a try here. My inverted L needs help. I am so over with crummy 'sparse radials'. What a waste. Also, I intend to shift more towards a longer L which more approximates voltage feed. Having a quarter wave L with the current point at ground level is just asking for poor performance IMO. 73, David K3KY ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a college professor- duh! He certainly knew his stuff, but his views were not necessarily global at all times. Perception colors our understanding of the world. ** Thats an understatement. I consider him one of the more blatant plaigarizers who knew a lot less about antennas as he misled many to believe. I happend to be in a meeting with him in GA when the company team I was with were making a presentation. His body language and questions gave a strong impression of a blowhard which was somewhat confirmed by the looks others on his side were giving him. The after the meeting discussions on my side were rather emphatic about the above. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: k...@radioprism.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting Cebik's paper on the counterpoise is interesting and perhaps useful, so far as it goes. I don't remember seeing any mention of voltage-fed antennas, however. If they are in that article, I missed them. Cebik mentions Woodrow Smith in connection with a 1948 antenna book. I don't know if this is the same 'Woody Smith', W6BCX, but I suspect it is. Woody Smith wrote an article in March 1948 CQ Magazine titled Bet My Money on a Bobtail Beam. In that article, he is somewhat vague about the ground return for the center element, but is very clear that 'not much' of a ground is needed. In his Feb/Mar 1983 HR Mag. reprise of the Bobtail/Half Square antennas, he refers to the desirability of a 'ground screen', refraining from calling this small, rectangular grid a 'counterpoise'. But that's what it is, in today's usage. I called it that in my Bobtail pages, and will likely continue doing so. http://www.angelfire.com/md/k3ky/page49.html Moxon, G6XN also refers extensively to the counterpoise in his favored half wave vertical antennas, and in his case, is talking about a pretty tiny piece of metal indeed. See HF Antennas For All Locations. by G6XN. Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a college professor- duh! He certainly knew his stuff, but his views were not necessarily global at all times. Perception colors our understanding of the world. Language is a living, growing thing. Cebik was probably right about the concept of the counterpoise having been 'muddied', but OTOH that horse is now long out of the barn. I very much doubt the word is going away any time soon, in ham 'circles'. Or squares or rectangles. Even elongated, skinny rectangles. I find K2AV's FCP (folded counterpoise) most intriguing, and I intend to give it a try here. My inverted L needs help. I am so over with crummy 'sparse radials'. What a waste. Also, I intend to shift more towards a longer L which more approximates voltage feed. Having a quarter wave L with the current point at ground level is just asking for poor performance IMO. 73, David K3KY ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4030 - Release Date: 11/21/11 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. Dave WX7G On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, ZR z...@jeremy.mv.com wrote: Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a college professor- duh! He certainly knew his stuff, but his views were not necessarily global at all times. Perception colors our understanding of the world. ** Thats an understatement. I consider him one of the more blatant plaigarizers who knew a lot less about antennas as he misled many to believe. I happend to be in a meeting with him in GA when the company team I was with were making a presentation. His body language and questions gave a strong impression of a blowhard which was somewhat confirmed by the looks others on his side were giving him. The after the meeting discussions on my side were rather emphatic about the above. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: k...@radioprism.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting Cebik's paper on the counterpoise is interesting and perhaps useful, so far as it goes. I don't remember seeing any mention of voltage-fed antennas, however. If they are in that article, I missed them. Cebik mentions Woodrow Smith in connection with a 1948 antenna book. I don't know if this is the same 'Woody Smith', W6BCX, but I suspect it is. Woody Smith wrote an article in March 1948 CQ Magazine titled Bet My Money on a Bobtail Beam. In that article, he is somewhat vague about the ground return for the center element, but is very clear that 'not much' of a ground is needed. In his Feb/Mar 1983 HR Mag. reprise of the Bobtail/Half Square antennas, he refers to the desirability of a 'ground screen', refraining from calling this small, rectangular grid a 'counterpoise'. But that's what it is, in today's usage. I called it that in my Bobtail pages, and will likely continue doing so. http://www.angelfire.com/md/k3ky/page49.html Moxon, G6XN also refers extensively to the counterpoise in his favored half wave vertical antennas, and in his case, is talking about a pretty tiny piece of metal indeed. See HF Antennas For All Locations. by G6XN. Cebik tended to be pedantic. Heck, he was a college professor- duh! He certainly knew his stuff, but his views were not necessarily global at all times. Perception colors our understanding of the world. Language is a living, growing thing. Cebik was probably right about the concept of the counterpoise having been 'muddied', but OTOH that horse is now long out of the barn. I very much doubt the word is going away any time soon, in ham 'circles'. Or squares or rectangles. Even elongated, skinny rectangles. I find K2AV's FCP (folded counterpoise) most intriguing, and I intend to give it a try here. My inverted L needs help. I am so over with crummy 'sparse radials'. What a waste. Also, I intend to shift more towards a longer L which more approximates voltage feed. Having a quarter wave L with the current point at ground level is just asking for poor performance IMO. 73, David K3KY ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4030 - Release Date: 11/21/11 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: The 16th Stew Perry TopBand DX Challenge
Brian; I would encourage you to participate at any speed. This is the gentlemen's band after all and I for one and most others will welcome a contact with you. Since scoring is based on grid squares and distance I would guess that you would add some good points to scores for those of us in the upper midwest and east coast. I'll be listening for you; 73, Russ N3CO From: kd6...@earthlink.net kd6...@earthlink.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Topband: The 16th Stew Perry TopBand DX Challenge Hi Folks: I'm a slow CW op (less than 10 WPM). Would it be worth my time to participate, or will my slow speed slow down other stations and while I add to the QRM? 73 Brian, KD6NRP ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
On 11/22/2011 9:29 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: L.B. was a professor of Philosophy and not a degreed engineer. Dave WX7G On Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM, ZRz...@jeremy.mv.com wrote: I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my problem and moved on. 73, Mike, W5UC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE MAILING LIST
___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting
Hear! Hear! 73, Joe K2XX On 11/22/2011 2:16 PM, Paul Christensen wrote: As long as we're providing testimony against a defendant who is now a SK, I can counter those assertions by saying L.B. was extremely helpful to me as I began learning EZNEC. I had consulted with him on many occasions to clarify the design of various antennas and several link-coupled tuners. Paul, W9AC - Original Message - From: Mike(W5UC)w...@suddenlink.net To:topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 2:08 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting I got into it with L. B. several years ago. He published something((I don't remember what) that was quite ambiguous, and I dropped him an e-mail asking him to be more specific. He replied by accusing me of being demanding. I found another source to reference in solving my problem and moved on. 73, Mike, W5UC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4632 - Release Date: 11/22/11 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: feeding phased verticals at half wave spacing
1/4 wave verticals spaced half-wave apart fed out-of-phase gives you a end-fire pattern - the same verticals fed in-phase gives you a broad-side pattern. Chapter 11 - Practical Antenna Handbook - Joseph J. Carr - Tab Books - 1989 Clint - W5CPT - On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Dale Long dale.l...@prodigy.net wrote: Gentlemen: I have been told repeatedly that phased verticals should be spaced 1/4 wavelength apart. Ok, I am willing to accept that. My question is if you have verticals that are 1/2 wave apart, would it not give some pattern, whatever that should be? If you were looking for an endfire pattern how should you feed such verticals? If you have specific questions, you may contact me directly at dale.l...@prodigy.net Thanks and 73, Dale N3BNA ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK -- *Clint Talmadge* ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: feeding phased verticals at half wave spacing
And there's an expanded write-up about phased verticals in the new, 5th edition, c. 2011. Bud, W2RU On Nov 22, 2011, at 6:30 PM, Clint Talmadge wrote: 1/4 wave verticals spaced half-wave apart fed out-of-phase gives you a end-fire pattern - the same verticals fed in-phase gives you a broad-side pattern. Chapter 11 - Practical Antenna Handbook - Joseph J. Carr - Tab Books - 1989 Clint - W5CPT - On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Dale Long dale.l...@prodigy.net wrote: Gentlemen: I have been told repeatedly that phased verticals should be spaced 1/4 wavelength apart. Ok, I am willing to accept that. My question is if you have verticals that are 1/2 wave apart, would it not give some pattern, whatever that should be? If you were looking for an endfire pattern how should you feed such verticals? If you have specific questions, you may contact me directly at dale.l...@prodigy.net Thanks and 73, Dale N3BNA ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK -- *Clint Talmadge* ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Counterpoise very interesting
In retrospect, I'm asking myself was this thread a troll? I can't tell who the sender is- no call, signature, etc. Could this be bashing calling the FCP a 'counterpoise'? Well, regardless, it's not going to deter me from trying one. 73, David K3KY Original Message Subject: Topband: Counterpoise very interresting From: lrp...@comcast.net Date: Mon, November 21, 2011 9:28 am To: topband@contesting.com http://www.antennex.com/shack/Dec06/cps.html ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: no response to query: feeding phased verticals at half wave spacing
A wide spaced array offers many benefits when possible. In general the is less coupling between the elements results in better less mutual impedance interdependence. When enough space is available a simple Ham array would be 1/2 wave spaced elements fed from the center point with open wire. This will produce familiar figure 8 pattern where the major lobe is perpendicular to the line of the towers. Basically the energy if equal from both towers will cancel along the line of the towers but since the towers are in phase, points perpendicular, beginning at 45 degrees between the line of the towers will add in phase with the resultant lobe at 90 degrees. If the phasing is 180 degrees the energy will add along the line of the towers and also produce a figure 8 but rotated 90 degrees. A useful unidirectional mode with 180 degree spaced towers is 45 degree phasing which produces a wide forward lobe with deep nulls at an angle to the rear and a 'tail' peaking up at the rear. Towers spaced around 90 degrees produce better cardioid patterns. The ARRL Antenna Handbook goes into pretty detailed explanation of phased arrays and gets into multitower arrays, showing three and four tower designs. I would also suggest EZNEC as good entry modelling software. while with modeling the devil is always in how close to life the modeling details are, simple two towers models play out pretty well with basic models. If I had the space I would consider a 180 deg spaced two tower array with as I mentioned earlier open transmission with 4 positions. The first in the center for normal figure 8 operation, the second a transmission line to either one of the towers to rotate the figure 8 90 degrees and the third and forth to taps in either direction along the TX line to achieve 45 degree phasing for quasi unidirectional operation along the line of the towers in either direction. This would be one of the least expensive arrays that could be built with a minimum parts count. But have 360 deg coverage. On 11/22/11 8:06 PM, Gerry Treas, K8GT wrote: Hi Dale, I'm no antenna expert, but certainly read as much of the experts publications as I can get my hands on, but having a Teflon brain, it doesn't stick very well. That said, the ARRL Antenna Book has a page that shows the patterns of various spacings and phasings of vertical antennas, which I found very enlightening. 73, Gerry, K8GT Dale Longdale.l...@prodigy.net wrote: = Gentlemen: I am not one who thinks the whole world revolves around my concerns. And I recognize that some research on my part may be necessary. ( I have read ON4UN's Low-Band Dxing) But I do think this is a reasonable question, and think that there are knowledgeable folks who might provide some advice. Unfortunately I have never done any antenna modeling. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks, Dale N3BNA From: Dale Long [mailto:dale.l...@prodigy.net] Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 3:05 PM To: 'Topband@contesting.com' Subject: feeding phased verticals at half wave spacing Gentlemen: I have been told repeatedly that phased verticals should be spaced 1/4 wavelength apart. Ok, I am willing to accept that. My question is if you have verticals that are 1/2 wave apart, would it not give some pattern, whatever that should be? If you were looking for an endfire pattern how should you feed such verticals? If you have specific questions, you may contact me directly at dale.l...@prodigy.net Thanks and 73, Dale N3BNA ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: The 16th Stew Perry TopBand DX Challenge
Speaking for myself, I would slow down to 10WPM for you. It's not 20m CW during CQWW where guys are running 40-45wpm, so my hope is that most guys would slow down for you. I consider it a friendly contest. VE9AA dit dit Mike, Coreen Corey Smith 699 Rte 616 Keswick Ridge NB Canada E6L 1T1 - Original Message - From: kd6...@earthlink.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Topband: The 16th Stew Perry TopBand DX Challenge Hi Folks: I'm a slow CW op (less than 10 WPM). Would it be worth my time to participate, or will my slow speed slow down other stations and while I add to the QRM? 73 Brian, KD6NRP ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.454 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4029 - Release Date: 11/20/11 19:34:00 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: no response to query: feeding phased verticals at halfwave spacing
On Tue, 2011-11-22 at 21:39 -0500, ZR wrote: Well first of all dont expect instant gratification on here as there are usually delays in a post appearing. As far as the question you can phase them to get figure 8 patterns broadside and end fire. I had a pair of 80M 1/4 wave spaced 1/4 wave also fed as 1/2 waves on 40M at a prior QTH. Carl KM1H Thanks Carl, I have been wondering about using a phased pair with each element as a trapped vertical for 40 and 30 with suitable phasing for each band. From your testimony about your 80/40 antenna system I should be able to get some kind of useful pattern for each band (and I would favor 40 and compromise 30 when choices have to be made). From other recent messages here I am going to look for the EZnec software and play around with the possibilities before I commit any time, materials, and labor to an antenna system. I am on a small lot now so my 160 meter antenna will have to a severe compromise and I'll just do the best that I can with what I have. There won't be any phased arrays nor beverages for 160 meters here. You can't put five pounds of baloney in a one pound sack. I'll be putting up what I regard as an end fed wire with a counterpoise and ground..as much wire and counterpoise as I can bend around my territory. I've used that combination before but laid out in a nice, straight, long line. I'm probably not going to work a qrp op on 160 in New Zealand but I'm sure I'll have some QSOs. 73, Bill KU8H ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: 1/2 wave spacing
Hi reflectees ! I currently have the setup to try 3el in line against 2 el halfwave spaced broadside. I run this comparingly for about two years now and my findings are : the broadside radiation from 2el /halfwave is lower than the endfire radiation from 3 el 1/4 spaced. E.g. westcoast USA is easier to work with my 2el broadside than with 3 el endfire, not by much, but some 2 dbs on the long hauls is frquently encountered, which is a lot on 160. This is also commonly described in antenna design books. Just a short message from the been there, done that department :-) 73 de wolf df2py ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
