Re: Topband: Laird ferrites
I agree with Chuck, Laird, formerly Steward, is an established magnetics company. Jack Smith of Clifton labs uses them in some of this designs. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/easy_broadband_transformer.htm You should evaluate them. 73, Mike N2MS - Original Message - From: Chuck charle...@msn.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 01:28:50 - (UTC) Subject: Re: Topband: Laird ferrites On 6/29/2012 8:07 AM, Jim Brown wrote: Other than those samples, I've never gotten a thing from Fair-Rite, but they have been an excellent corporate citizen, and they have been quite willing to sell directly to hams for group purchases at the same prices they sell to distributors for the same quantities.. Why would we want to bite the hand that feeds us to buy virtually unknown parts from a company we've never heard of? 73, Jim Brown K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK I'm quite happy with the test results for Laird #35 toroids. The price is much less that Fair Rite for a comparable part. From my point of view, there's no need to stick with IBM, GM, etc. Chuck ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
Any one out there using a Bird 43 for measuring out put power for QRP? I have a 250H element for HF. Should I get the 50H element for HF? I have a Ten-Tec Omni VI Plus Power turned down to minimum. with the 250H slug I measure 5 watts, first mark from the bottom of scale. Not very accurate or is it? There are lower wattage slugs but for a much higher frequency range. The 250H range is 2 to 30 mhz 160M is not quite covered but I think is ok. Stay on course, fight a good fight, and keep the faith. Jim K9TF/WA9YSD ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
There are lower wattage slugs but for a much higher frequency range. The 250H range is 2 to 30 mhz 160M is not quite covered but I think is ok. Bird make HF (H) elements at 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, 2500, 5000 and 1 Watts. Finding the 5, 10, or 25 Watt elements new may be a trick as they are only produced infrequently. Several resellers have used elements in some of those ranges. RF Parts and RadioDan stock new elements. A Google search for Bird Elements will generate leads on sources for both new and used elements. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/30/2012 12:11 PM, Jim WA9YSD wrote: Any one out there using a Bird 43 for measuring out put power for QRP? I have a 250H element for HF. Should I get the 50H element for HF? I have a Ten-Tec Omni VI Plus Power turned down to minimum. with the 250H slug I measure 5 watts, first mark from the bottom of scale. Not very accurate or is it? There are lower wattage slugs but for a much higher frequency range. The 250H range is 2 to 30 mhz 160M is not quite covered but I think is ok. Stay on course, fight a good fight, and keep the faith.Jim K9TF/WA9YSD ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
Adding to Joe's suggestion, NM3E and Chuck Martin RF Supply are good sources for used Bird and Coaxial Dynamics product. I've been pleased with both suppliers. http://www.nm3e.com/ http://www.chuckmartin.com/ Paul, W9AC - Original Message - From: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help There are lower wattage slugs but for a much higher frequency range. The 250H range is 2 to 30 mhz 160M is not quite covered but I think is ok. Bird make HF (H) elements at 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, 2500, 5000 and 1 Watts. Finding the 5, 10, or 25 Watt elements new may be a trick as they are only produced infrequently. Several resellers have used elements in some of those ranges. RF Parts and RadioDan stock new elements. A Google search for Bird Elements will generate leads on sources for both new and used elements. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 6/30/2012 12:11 PM, Jim WA9YSD wrote: Any one out there using a Bird 43 for measuring out put power for QRP? I have a 250H element for HF. Should I get the 50H element for HF? I have a Ten-Tec Omni VI Plus Power turned down to minimum. with the 250H slug I measure 5 watts, first mark from the bottom of scale. Not very accurate or is it? There are lower wattage slugs but for a much higher frequency range. The 250H range is 2 to 30 mhz 160M is not quite covered but I think is ok. Stay on course, fight a good fight, and keep the faith.Jim K9TF/WA9YSD ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
Hi Jim Many years ago at 4U1ITU I found the Bird 43 grossly underestimated the power output on 160, rather embarrassing at the temple of regulation. Bob VE7BS The 250H range is 2 to 30 mhz 160M is not quite covered but I think is ok. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
Bob, If you had a 250H that read grossly underestimated, then you had a bad element, the line section or the meter. The usable range in NOT a square-wave. Price W0RI Hi Jim Many years ago at 4U1ITU I found the Bird 43 grossly underestimated the power output on 160, rather embarrassing at the temple of regulation. Bob VE7BS The 250H range is 2 to 30 mhz 160M is not quite covered but I think is ok. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
Try Webster Communications in Rochester, Michigan. This is the old Webster Band Spanner mobile antennas. He's still around, I saw him at Dayton this year. He sells Bird elements. Also, don't forget Coaxial Dynamics that sells a wattmeter that uses elements that are compatible with Bird wattmeters. 73, Gerry, K8GT ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
Simply going to the Bird site would have given you a glimpse at one of their manuals that has the correction factors needed. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Bob Eldridge eldri...@direct.ca To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help Hi Jim Many years ago at 4U1ITU I found the Bird 43 grossly underestimated the power output on 160, rather embarrassing at the temple of regulation. Bob VE7BS The 250H range is 2 to 30 mhz 160M is not quite covered but I think is ok. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5100 - Release Date: 06/29/12 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Laird ferrites
Evaluate against what? While Ive heard of Steward in the past I see nothing on Lairds site that gives me any information to base an evaluation on. Would you buy a complete unknown product of any kind without knowing all the specs? And not having to waste time filling out a form and not even knowing what that will bring? IMO, its a pretty dumb way of doing business. Since they are almost in my back yard I might take a drive up next week. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: mstang...@comcast.net To: Chuck charle...@msn.com Cc: topband@contesting.com Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Laird ferrites I agree with Chuck, Laird, formerly Steward, is an established magnetics company. Jack Smith of Clifton labs uses them in some of this designs. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/easy_broadband_transformer.htm You should evaluate them. 73, Mike N2MS - Original Message - From: Chuck charle...@msn.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 01:28:50 - (UTC) Subject: Re: Topband: Laird ferrites On 6/29/2012 8:07 AM, Jim Brown wrote: Other than those samples, I've never gotten a thing from Fair-Rite, but they have been an excellent corporate citizen, and they have been quite willing to sell directly to hams for group purchases at the same prices they sell to distributors for the same quantities.. Why would we want to bite the hand that feeds us to buy virtually unknown parts from a company we've never heard of? 73, Jim Brown K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK I'm quite happy with the test results for Laird #35 toroids. The price is much less that Fair Rite for a comparable part. From my point of view, there's no need to stick with IBM, GM, etc. Chuck ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5100 - Release Date: 06/29/12 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
Many years ago at 4U1ITU I found the Bird 43 grossly underestimated the power output on 160, rather embarrassing at the temple of regulation. If that was the case, they had a bad slug. The rating of the Bird 43 and standard slug is + or - 5% of full scale anywhere on the scale within the range of the slug, but it does not go far out of tolerance just 10% below the low end of the specification range. A 250-watt 2-30 MHz slug will read close to spec on 160 meters. If it is way off on 160, you can bet it is way off on 80 and 40 meters, too. - or + 5% means acceptable error is 12.5 watts low or high anywhere on the scale, although normally when freshly calibrated they are much closer than that. I would not expect a 250 watt slug to be more than 10-15 watts off on 160 meters, although the most common calibration failure is low reading. The low reading error almost always comes from the calibration pot making a high resistance connection to the wiper, meaning the slugs that go bad will age terribly low in reading. About 30% of my Bird slugs fail in ten years, despite very rarely being handled or used. People need to remember the accuracy specs, and use slugs that keep the meter well up the scale if accuracy is important. 73 Tom ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Laird ferrites
On 6/30/2012 3:34 PM, ZR wrote: Evaluate against what? While Ive heard of Steward in the past I see nothing on Lairds site that gives me any information to base an evaluation on. I've had samples and a catalog from Stewart for years, but there's not nearly enough data there on which to base a judgment. Like Carl and Tom, I see no value in much cheaper for a product which there is only skeleton data, and characterizing these parts takes a LOT of time. Every Fair-Rite suppression part has a detailed data sheet with graphs of impedance vs frequency, and most of them for 1-3 turns. Fair-Rite publishes graphs of u' and u'' vs frequency for every material. I see nothing comparable in the Stewart book, nor in the Laird pdf referenced, and it is those data that tell a designer what they are and how they behave. Jack Smith may have learned enough about the part's he using to find them a good option, or he may be using them in a relatively undemanding application, or in application where the skeleton data is enough. 73, Jim K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help
Or if you don't want to concern yourself with different slugs for different frequencies and power levels (other than UHF)...sell your Bird wattmeter and all the slugs and get a LP-100A which has NIST traceable calibration and typically reads +/- 3% of the power reading from 1 W to 3000W and you get peak or average reading as well as many other nice features... Call me biased -- because I have two of them...but if you want to learn more... http://www.telepostinc.com/lp100.html 73 de Greg-N4CC -Original Message- From: topband-boun...@contesting.com [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:25 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: QRP and Bird 43 Watt meter help Many years ago at 4U1ITU I found the Bird 43 grossly underestimated the power output on 160, rather embarrassing at the temple of regulation. If that was the case, they had a bad slug. The rating of the Bird 43 and standard slug is + or - 5% of full scale anywhere on the scale within the range of the slug, but it does not go far out of tolerance just 10% below the low end of the specification range. A 250-watt 2-30 MHz slug will read close to spec on 160 meters. If it is way off on 160, you can bet it is way off on 80 and 40 meters, too. - or + 5% means acceptable error is 12.5 watts low or high anywhere on the scale, although normally when freshly calibrated they are much closer than that. I would not expect a 250 watt slug to be more than 10-15 watts off on 160 meters, although the most common calibration failure is low reading. The low reading error almost always comes from the calibration pot making a high resistance connection to the wiper, meaning the slugs that go bad will age terribly low in reading. About 30% of my Bird slugs fail in ten years, despite very rarely being handled or used. People need to remember the accuracy specs, and use slugs that keep the meter well up the scale if accuracy is important. 73 Tom ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: Laird ferrites
Evaluate against what? Hmm seems kind of a silly statement to me as a designer. Evaluation is the job of component engineering in most companies. They make sure that the components conform to the specification data sheets provided or not by the suppliers. Just so you always purchase the same thing. There are 25 toroid transformers accomplishing various functions in my highly successful 8 element receiving array, not counting the 8 in the antenna elements.. One cannot simply design a broad band transformer from a data sheet having lots or little information and expect it to accomplish perfectly its function. Each function is generally methodically tested to verify that the transformer does indeed perform its function with minor variation. One cannot assume that will happen just because the data sheet provides various parameters. About the only thing Fair Rite says about wideband transformers is to use High u and few turns. H. My point is this. Jim K9YC has measured cores and provided useful data for the masses. This is wonderful but it did not come from any companies data sheet. Jim has pointed out what you need to duplicate his efforts. I find no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. Who is to say the Laird ferrites might not work even better in a K9YC evaluation. Most successful amateur applications of ferrites do not come as a result of the manufacturers data sheet but as a result of some tests done by someone in the past. By thorough evaluation in my circuits, I have found an off brand ferrite to perform well beyond my expectations. They were not chosen because of price. They were also not chosen by what it says on the spec sheet. Lee K7TJR OR ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Laird ferrites
I have found an off brand ferrite to perform well beyond my expectations Control the quality of any product is expensive but it can assure that every single core has the same specification range. Narrow the range higher the price. When the specification is not clear and the product has half the price, you can expect large variation between units. It could be excellent in one unity and terrible on the next one. Sure you can buy quantity and measure each one selecting the ones you need. It is like to buy toroid in a ham fest, you have no idea what you got. Regards JC N4IS ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
