Re: Topband: How does KP4KE do it with 20 watts?
> Really, if his claims are true KP4KE worked 49 countries in two > nights > during the CQ 160 meter contest running only 20 watts. He claims he > is I have a transmit advantage I would not like to surrender, I am maybe 200' from salt water in a marsh which contains my radials. It sucks for Rx but for Tx, I have a kick butt station albeit it is only wire antennas. I just 5 minutes ago worked XT2TT with 15 watts on 1.8331 while I was waiting for my amp to warm up; this is my input wattage on 160. Considering he came back to me after three calls and all I'm using is an inv-L over the 50' tree top with a nice radial bed of 50(-) radials with 1/2 on a salt marsh, I can see how someone can do very well with 20 watts and a fine antenna can work many countries on 160 when they are a rare multiplier. I'm just sayin'... Gary KA1J _ Topband Reflector
Topband: TX5K - the showstopper
I was a bit on 30M, listening and waiting for the gud signal to call them and... I thought: "don't look the cluster, don't go to 160, will never work it!" :). What a shot! Absurd signal guys, right now, here, in the valley... sounds like a station from Canary Islands! IMHO, at these levels ( they have perfect balance between receiving and transmitting ) I don't think it is just a matter of propagation... Thanks Clipperton! Alessandro, IZ5MOQ _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Ground radials problem - Tnks
Joe, John and Dean, many thanks for your answer and suggestions. I need to add that fence wire used is iron and not aluminum and it was installed 2 years ago. I still wonder if the huge difference in current distribution between the ground pipe and the radial before and after the rain is normal for 60 lying on the ground (now buried) radials or if it is a clear indication something is really wrong with my radials and I need to replace them (add another 60). Many thanks... Eddy.- > - Original Message - > From: "Eduardo Araujo" > To: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 10:06:34 AM > Subject: Topband: Ground radials problem > > Dear people, I experience a situation that confused me a > little bit. > > I have a vertical with 60 fence wire buried radials 1/4 wave > long plus a ground rod. > > Prior to the contest I decided to check the buried radials > of my vertical. I have bundles ranging from 4 to 7 radials > connected to a square ring around the base of the tower. I > provided 20W input and measured the current entering each of > the bundles which is a procedure I have done many times. > > To my big surprise there was little to no current entering > most of them except one which also had a ground rod. > > This bundle took aprox 80% of the total current. Then I > decided to measure the current entering the ground road and > it was aprox 100% of the total for that bundle. > > This situation was the opposite I always had measured where > the ground rod practically had insignificant current. > > 2 months had passed without any rain so I tried to spread > some water around a radius of 4 meters but situation didn´t > change dramatically but yes an small increase in all radials > current > > That night I thought a lot of possibilities but the > strongest was that for some reason most of the radials had > dissapeared. > > Next day we have 27mm of rain. Another surprise, everything > back to normal. I had current in all bundles and almost > nothing into the ground rod. > > Question 1: I expected that having 60 radials it should not > matter if it rains or not. I expected to have a relative > good shield of the ground and besides if the soil was so dry > why the ground road was collecting so much current from it? > Any guess what could be going on ? > > Question 2: Could it be possible that radials could have > been eaten by the soil and I am having very short ones ? > > I am planning to add another 60 and for a reason of cooper > cost I am planning to use what I think should be similar to > what I read here many times as WD1. It is for exterior > telephony drop consisting of a pair of 0.8 mm of stiff wire > which looks like iron covered by cooper and both separated > by 3mm of a very heavy plastic. I measured 13 ohms of DC > resistance in 60 mts of wire. > > My plan is to split the 2 wires and use them as radials. > > Question 3: It is a good or a bad idea to use this kind of > wire instead of fence wire?. Cooper will be the last option > of course > > Many thanks in advance for your opinions Eddy, LU2DKT > _ > Topband Reflector > _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Adding 160m to Butternut verticals
Yes, I tried that a few zillion years ago. The upper section of an HF2V was never designed to support a long hunk of wire hanging off the top ... it turns into a noodle, requiring a set of guys at the top. Tuning was difficult and inconsistent. Vertical section isn't high enough to be effective on TB. I'd do something else. Even with lots of radials, it didn't work that well on 80M ( w/o the extra wire on top). 160M? What was I thinking? Paul WB2ABD < Has anyone tried adding a horizontal wire to the top of either the Butternut HF2V, HF6V, or HF9V in order to get it to resonate on 160m? Les, N1SV > _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Elevated Radials EPILOGUE
Buck I think a lot of people have already done these kinds of tests. Tom and others have given a pretty thorough run-down of the different factors and results to expect. And, it all mostly agrees with modeling. There are a lot of real world differences such as type of ground, nearby terrain levels, buildings, overhead wires, and so on. Then, there are economic factors. About all you can do is to put up whatever you can live with at your locale. Or, you could buy a perfect location somewhere and operate a remote station via an internet link. - Wes Attaway (N5WA) --- 1138 Waters Edge Circle, Shreveport, LA 71106 318-797-4972 (Office) - 318-393-3289 (Cell) Computer Consulting and Forensics -- EnCase Certified Examiner --- -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Buck wh7dx Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 12:39 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Elevated Radials EPILOGUE I can't believe that no one has put this really important question to bed already. If I had the land and an existing vertical with a large buried radial system and another tower available.. I would try it out for the sake of Ham Radio :-)) Put up another 160M vertical.. contact a few friends from around North America or International and take some notes. Put 2 1/4 wave elevated radials up in the air.. 10ft. Then try 30ft.. take some notes. How did the control sample compare (buried radials). Should give you an idea of propagation and changes. Put 4 1/4 wave in the air.. (if you noticed a difference with 10ft and 30ft - don't bother with the weaker one) any difference with 4 versus 2? - I'd bet there is... Put 12 1/4 wave in the air...how does that compare? Pretty close to Control Sample??What are the real world results. If it's one "S" unit and I don't need to lay a mile-plus of wire buried in the ground.. that might be enough. I don't think people want to have a ton of elevated radials in the air either - and I'm reading that you don't need to. If you don't want to go with elevated - then bury as many in the ground as you can - have fun... Surely, someone has the room and energy (friends) to give us all the "final" answer to this question. It would be a blast to do. We'll all pitch in some beer money. Please post the results.. :-) P.S. Can someone with a tower also test out a low dipole around 30 ft and then go to 60, 90 and 120 and post the results. I'm thinking a pulley and rope and some quick 10 minutes adjustments for real world results... that one's easy. Bryan WH7DX [CONFIDENTIALITY AND PRIVACY NOTICE] Information transmitted by this email is proprietary to Mr. & Mrs. B and is intended for use only by the individual or entity to which it is addressed, or where ever the hell it ends up, and will almost certainly contain information that will offend a large portion of the population, which isn't our concern. If you are not the intended lucky recipient, or it appears that this mail has been forwarded to you without the proper authority of the Wizard of Email or Al Gore, you are notified that any thought, use, or consumption of this email is entirely your choice. In such case, Bon AppetitNote: A $.02 Internet Tax was charged for receiving this email and all funds were given to some family somewhere in America or the U.N Have a nice day. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: How does KP4KE do it with 20 watts?
I find no record of KP4KE in my CW logs or in reversebeacon data. ??? I'm guessing he's phone-only. Is this summary for CQ 160M phone or what? As to killer loud signals... TX5K (Clipperton) was coming in at my QTH on East Coast night before last, super duper loud on 160M, amazing. Louder than many legal-limit stations in my region. I'm guessing saltwater path on 160M makes a big difference. Tim N3QE -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herb Schoenbohm Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 5:32 PM To: TopBand List Subject: Topband: How does KP4KE do it with 20 watts? Really, if his claims are true KP4KE worked 49 countries in two nights during the CQ 160 meter contest running only 20 watts. He claims he is using for the states a "double bazooka" at 85 feet. His signals on RBN were consistently stronger than my 1.5 KW to a 1/4 wave vertical with 60 radials. In fact he was stronger here than Perdro, NP4A who has an excellent low band setup with ample power output. My point is that if there some sort of "magic antenna" that can do this I think it would be important to do an forensic analysis of it's structure. As far a I can understand such a feat is unprecedented on 160 meter SSB and TB'ers might be interested in examining such an an antenna that you can hang at 85 feet and be the top dog on the band. Please let me know when you know if there is true RF magic on 160 meters. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ Call: KP4KE Operator(s): KP4KE Station: KP4KE Class: Single Op LP QTH: Puerto Rico Operating Time (hrs): 14 Summary: Total: QSOs = 508 State/Prov = 49 Countries = 49 Total Score = 318,794 Club: Rhein Ruhr DX Association Comments: [log removed from comments] Hello, from Aguadilla PR *Working the contest with 20 watts was fun.* my Antennas are 4 el. vertical beam looking to EU and two inverter L and a double bazooka at 85 feet high to the USA but conditions no good to USA but to EU very good opening both day my goal was 50 countries but only made 49 and 49 State and Canada No activities from central america and a lot of islands in the caribbean with no operators. I receive very good reports from EU station. I think I was the only KP4 Station early on band both days that help a lot Sorry for delay in send this report but no internet in shack. See you in next contest 73 & DX and remember put your money in ant. no in power hi hi. Good ham operator no need power. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Elevated Radials EPILOGUE
I can't believe that no one has put this really important question to bed already. Since the results vary with installation and soil, and since no one considers "it depends" a good answer, the debate will never end. If I had the land and an existing vertical with a large buried radial system and another tower available.. I would try it out for the sake of Ham Radio :-)) I've already done that using field strength readings. I'm sure others have also. P.S. Can someone with a tower also test out a low dipole around 30 ft and then go to 60, 90 and 120 and post the results. I'm thinking a pulley and rope and some quick 10 minutes adjustments for real world results... that one's easy. I already did that. I made thousands of A-B-C comparisons between high dipoles, low dipoles, and a reference vertical. For a period of time I even had two dipoles at 250 feet or so phased. The problem is what works here for what I do can be considerably different than other places and what someone else wants. VK3ZL also compared a shorter vertical with a ~100-foot high dipole for a long period of time. All of these tests were "blind" A-B tests. The problem is results vary not only with the installation and location, but also with the distance, time of day, and solar conditions. Bob and I both pretty much settled on verticals, as did ZL3REX and others. Anyone who has made extensive A-B comparisons likely gets a chuckle out of "I took down an antenna and put up another one and it was difference" statements. It takes a long time period of many direct A-B comparisons to reach dependable conclusions. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Elevated Radials EPILOGUE
Brian and any other interested party, Although it is not exactly the test you are proposing, for all intents and purposes the information I have will give you a quite good summary of your suggested testing. Both TX antennas described below perform VERY, VERY well. I have constructed and have used for some years with excellent results at N5BG/NI5T the following installation. 40' of Rohn 25 to an insulated base. Above the insulated base is 80' of Rohn 25 with a Force 12 C4XL as a top hat. 15 each, 1/4 WL long radials slope down from 40' to ~10'-15' AGL. This past year at a location 50 miles separated from the above described installation I constructed a full sized (120' tall) ground mounted and insulated Rohn 25 vertical with 64 each, 1/4 WL long, insulated radials laying on top of the ground. This is the first time I have had the ground space to construct a 'textbook' antenna. This location was operated under the call sign N7GP. The two locations are both in DM52, one inside of New Mexico and the other in Arizona. During some of the recent Top Band contests both stations have been active simultaneously and have been received by various RBN sites around the country. I have a set of jpeg images of the comparisons of the signals from the two stations at 8 different RBN sites across the USA during the CQ 160 CW 'test at the end of January. Both stations were running legal limit power over a period of ~3 hours providing an excellent comparison of signal strength at various distances from DM52. The images are only about 40 Kb per image, so they are not large files. I will be glad to send them to anyone who requests them in a direct E-Mail. I also have high resolution jpeg images (2-3 Mb) of the towers and close up views of certain parts of the antennas for those who are more interested in the details and might like to view those also. Happy Monday to everyone out there in radio land. de Milt, N5IA -Original Message- From: Buck wh7dx Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:38 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Elevated Radials EPILOGUE I can't believe that no one has put this really important question to bed already. If I had the land and an existing vertical with a large buried radial system and another tower available.. I would try it out for the sake of Ham Radio :-)) --SNIP-- Bryan WH7DX - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6135 - Release Date: 02/26/13_ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Elevated Radials
Grant and all, The lingering problem with this, like with many other things in life, is that the time or effort required for good verification of a theory or idea is much larger than the time or effort to form and publish an idea. The result is almost nobody actually verifies a theory in a way that quantifies the change. It all becomes personal belief, feeling, or faith, mush of which is often exaggerated far beyond what the change could really be. If you read carefully, you'll see articles that use the words "measure" and "build" , giving the illusion something was built and measured, when the "construction" is actually only model. Another common thing is to measure something other than field strength, and conclude the thing measured indicates or verifies the supposed field strength or efficiency changes. Examples of this are: 1.) Making a "happier amount" of contacts 2.) Measuring current and concluding a field strength change 3.) Measuring base impedance and concluding a field strength change 1. I would think that a system with elevated radials that slope upward towards the far ends (e.g for 160m 10' at feedpoint and 30' at far ends) should have less loss as the field is less near earth where the voltage is high in the radial. (unless there is something else that goes the wrong way). It depends on the soil, the number and length of radials, and the antenna. 2. Is 1/4 wl resonance at all important as the number of elevated radials increases - eg 10 total? The QEX N6LF papers seem to indicate that a little less than 1/4 wl is optimum for that number of radials. The more radials, the less critical and more repeatable everything becomes. As much as I try to get answers to these from EZNEC+ the far field results are all the same, 4 or 10 elevated radials and sloping or not, resonant or not. That result probably is because there isn't the large change we expect in the real world. The only real problems with EZNEC are how it calculates very low angle patterns (infinite flat earth) and it treats earth as a homogeneous media. PS: if you have a moment please explain the pros and cons of skirt wires. I think they are a good thing for top hat loading systems, but I can't reason it out for elevated or in the ground radials. The old VLF antennas all had them on the elevated ground planes, which isn't in any current recommended practice. The only thing skirt wires significantly do is change bandwidth. They can also change current distribution if the system is not top loaded and relies on capacitance of the vertical structure for loading. Look at Rudy N6LF's clear published warnings about (mis)use of his data, and then look at how his cautions are ignored as people selectively use the data they want from his articles as absolutes. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: How does KP4KE do it with 20 watts?
He claims he is using a "4 element vertical beam" to Europe. An optimized 4 EL array combined with proximity to saltwater might explain it, but that still seems like a big stretch. I remember sending an email to Ed @ D4B remarking on how loud he was here in W6 during one contest where he was active. He wrote back saying that his amplifier had died and that he was running low power during the entire contest. I couldn't believe it. Still going from 1500 Watts to 20 Watts is an 18.8dB deficit. That's a lot of dBs to overcome with antenna and QTH. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Seems like he should step up and provide a detailed description of his antenna system and QTH. Barring that, one is really left to wonder. BTW, here is what K2KW was able to do with a single vertical on the beach with 5W during CQ WW CW 2003: http://www.k2kw.com/6y0aqrp/ 20W would be 6dB louder. Add gain from a 4 element array and good conditions then it might be possible to explain it given the great advantage of CW over SSB on topband. Of course K2KW made no secret of his antenna system and QTH. Same thing with D4B. 73, Mike W4EF. On 3/3/2013 2:31 PM, Herb Schoenbohm wrote: Really, if his claims are true KP4KE worked 49 countries in two nights during the CQ 160 meter contest running only 20 watts. He claims he is using for the states a "double bazooka" at 85 feet. His signals on RBN were consistently stronger than my 1.5 KW to a 1/4 wave vertical with 60 radials. In fact he was stronger here than Perdro, NP4A who has an excellent low band setup with ample power output. My point is that if there some sort of "magic antenna" that can do this I think it would be important to do an forensic analysis of it's structure. As far a I can understand such a feat is unprecedented on 160 meter SSB and TB'ers might be interested in examining such an an antenna that you can hang at 85 feet and be the top dog on the band. Please let me know when you know if there is true RF magic on 160 meters. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ Call: KP4KE Operator(s): KP4KE Station: KP4KE Class: Single Op LP QTH: Puerto Rico Operating Time (hrs): 14 Summary: Total: QSOs = 508 State/Prov = 49 Countries = 49 Total Score = 318,794 Club: Rhein Ruhr DX Association Comments: [log removed from comments] Hello, from Aguadilla PR *Working the contest with 20 watts was fun.* my Antennas are 4 el. vertical beam looking to EU and two inverter L and a double bazooka at 85 feet high to the USA but conditions no good to USA but to EU very good opening both day my goal was 50 countries but only made 49 and 49 State and Canada No activities from central america and a lot of islands in the caribbean with no operators. I receive very good reports from EU station. I think I was the only KP4 Station early on band both days that help a lot Sorry for delay in send this report but no internet in shack. See you in next contest 73 & DX and remember put your money in ant. no in power hi hi. Good ham operator no need power. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
