Topband: Summer Stew results

[Tree]

The results for the 2013 Summer Stew Perry contest are now on the Stew web
page - http://www.kkn.net/stew/.

The results from last December are nearly done.  I will announce when they
are completed.

73 Tree N6TR
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

[Charlie Cunningham]

Well, my "submerged radials" worked well, years ago. Of course, it probably
helped that the lake had been treated with copper sulfate for vegetation
control!

:-)

Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tod
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:15 PM
To: Tom W8JI
Cc: 
Subject: Re: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

Party pooper !

73, Tod, K0TO

Sent from my iPad 4


On Aug 21, 2013, at 9:28, "Tom W8JI"  wrote:


> Generally, freshwater is like very poor dirt. As it gets contaminated with
certain impurities it can become better, but it is nothing even remotely
like salt water.
> 
> With so many radials that long, what you do with the last 30 feet, even on
half of them, won't matter much. Do whatever is easiest and best physically.
Cut them off, throw them in the water, bend them...it won't matter.
> 
> Of course if you want to impress people, run them into the water. Lot's of
people will think that is awesome and will talk about it. If you tell people
you are doing that on the air, you might even get better signal reports. :-)
> 
> But in real dull practical life, it really won't matter what you do with
them.
> 
> 73 Tom 
> _
> Topband Reflector
_
Topband Reflector

_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

[Tod]

Party pooper !

73, Tod, K0TO

Sent from my iPad 4


On Aug 21, 2013, at 9:28, "Tom W8JI"  wrote:


> Generally, freshwater is like very poor dirt. As it gets contaminated with 
> certain impurities it can become better, but it is nothing even remotely like 
> salt water.
> 
> With so many radials that long, what you do with the last 30 feet, even on 
> half of them, won't matter much. Do whatever is easiest and best physically. 
> Cut them off, throw them in the water, bend them...it won't matter.
> 
> Of course if you want to impress people, run them into the water. Lot's of 
> people will think that is awesome and will talk about it. If you tell people 
> you are doing that on the air, you might even get better signal reports. :-)
> 
> But in real dull practical life, it really won't matter what you do with them.
> 
> 73 Tom 
> _
> Topband Reflector
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: TI5/KL9A on 160m

[Eugene Popov /RA0FF/]

 To all thanks for the help!
I have received a feedback from Christopher.

73! de Eugene RA0FF

_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Two 2:1 transformers to choose from!!

[James Rodenkirch]

I received enuff "info" and thoughts to know I'll utilize the 5:7 winding 
version.  Thanks to all that replied!
 
72, Jim Rodenkirch K9JWV
 



From: rodenkirch_...@msn.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Two 2:1 transformers to choose from!!
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:23:37 -0600




I have two impedance transformers wound on BN 73-202 cores that I can use for 
the 2:1 impedance transformer I need for my FO0AAA delta receiving antenna.  
 
One has a  2 turn and 3 turn winding- giving a 4:9 impedance ratio.  The other 
has a 7 turn and 5 turn winding, giving a 25:49 impedance ratio.  I don't know 
which would be better - I believe the one with more
 turns probably has better coupling, but more loss?!?!
 
I am splitting fine hairs here butI am curious if one might say, 'Use "x" 
instead of "y," JimThoughts???
 
72, Jim Rodenkirch K9JWV

  
_
Topband Reflector

Topband: Two 2:1 transformers to choose from!!

[James Rodenkirch]

I have two impedance transformers wound on BN 73-202 cores that I can use for 
the 2:1 impedance transformer I need for my FO0AAA delta receiving antenna.  
 
One has a  2 turn and 3 turn winding- giving a 4:9 impedance ratio.  The other 
has a 7 turn and 5 turn winding, giving a 25:49 impedance ratio.  I don't know 
which would be better - I believe the one with more
 turns probably has better coupling, but more loss?!?!
 
I am splitting fine hairs here butI am curious if one might say, 'Use "x" 
instead of "y," JimThoughts???
 
72, Jim Rodenkirch K9JWV
  
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding

[Charlie Cunningham]

I've also had very good results using wire-wrap wire for winding small RF
transformers. Pretty easy to work with - and it's rugged.

Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
mstang...@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 2:01 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding

I use wire wrap wire when winding small cores. The Kynar insulation is tough
and resists nicking.



OT: Wire wrapping was very popular in the 60's and the 70's before the
advent of multilayer printed circuit boards.

It was very reliable. The backplane of the Apollo Guidance Compluter was
connected via wire wrap. You can see an example at the Infor Age Museum in
Wall, NJ.



Mike N2MS
_
Topband Reflector

_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding

[mstangelo]

I use wire wrap wire when winding small cores. The Kynar insulation is tough 
and resists nicking.



OT: Wire wrapping was very popular in the 60's and the 70's before the advent 
of multilayer printed circuit boards.

It was very reliable. The backplane of the Apollo Guidance Compluter was 
connected via wire wrap. You can see an example at the Infor Age Museum in 
Wall, NJ.



Mike N2MS
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Fw: RX antenna transformer winding(pureresistancetransformation issues)

[Bill Aycock]

Carl--
Earlier, you claimed that Tom had taken apposing sides on the turns spacing 
question, and, at his request, furnished a quote of his for reference. That 
was the base for my post, not any tests you had done.

Bill--W4BSG

-Original Message- 
From: ZR

Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:52 AM
To: Bill Aycock ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: RX antenna transformer 
winding(pureresistancetransformation issues)


I dont understand your question Bill.

My tests were with maximum common mode reduction on the feedline prior to
starting the process. Common mode isnt a factor in that case and the
improvements gained by reducing interwinding C can be seen especially with
increasing frequency.

Carl
KM1H


- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Aycock" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:38 AM
Subject: Topband: Fw: RX antenna transformer
winding(pureresistancetransformation issues)





-Original Message- 
From: Bill Aycock

Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:37 AM
To: ZR
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding 
(pureresistancetransformation issues)


ZR-- Don't those two statements say the same thing? ie, with high common
mode impedance, spacing can count.
Bill--W4BSG

-Original Message- 
From: ZR

Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:49 PM
To: Tom W8JI ; topband
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding
(pureresistancetransformation issues)


- Original Message - 
From: "Tom W8JI" 

To: "topband" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding (pure
resistancetransformation issues)




Unless you have a system with pretty high common mode impedances, winding
spacing means nothing.

** Contrary to what you have stated elsewhere


The primary reason I (and DXE) isolate windings with
Teflon tubes is to reduce lighting damage, and to greatly reduce assembly
damage. If the system has pretty high common mode impedances there might 
be

some small advantage in pushing windings apart, but the primary-secondary
capacitance is never going to be important in Beverages or other low or
modest common mode impedance antennas. Balancing a small loop might be an
issue.

** Common mode is an overworked response for perceived ailments.
I took your low capacitance suggestions a step further after carefully
measuring C and frequency response for maintaining high directivity and 
F/B.

Many Topband operators use their Beverages above 2 MHz.


I started using Teflon sleeves in windings because I ran out of small 
Teflon
wire wrap wire I was using. Without Teflon on the wires, and with normal 
mag
wire, the enamel was easily scratched. Not only that, lightning would 
punch

through from enamel to core, or from wire to wire.

** Telon is easily nicked, the type of wire used in modern vehicles is 
very
robust but with the sleeves plain ole magnet wire works well and allows 
even

smaller winding bundles.
Since I was more interested in performance rather than production problems 
I

took the time to evaluate a large number of variations.

Carl
KM1H


_
Topband Reflector
_
Topband Reflector


-
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding

[Don Kirk]

I've been using Radio Shack 30 AWG insulated wire (wire wrap wire) to wind
my binocular cores for RX antennas.  It comes in 50 foot spools, and you
can buy it in Blue, Red, or White.  This insulated wire has made winding of
my binocular cores a real pleasure.  No more worries about scratching the
enamel coating on the magnet wire that used to drive me nuts, and no more
messing around removing the enamel coating on the ends (I just use normal
cheap wire strippers to remove the insulation on the ends of the wires for
connection purposes).  Have never had problems using this wire without the
use of plastic/teflon sleeves (but I was also not attempting to keep the
primary and secondary turns separate (using sleeves) for purposes of
reduced capacitance between the windings in my applications)

Here are the Radio Shack part numbers for the wire I use :
Red : 278-501
White : 278-502
Blue : 278-503

Cost is $5.49 per spool.

73,
Don





On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 12:46 PM, George Dubovsky  wrote:

> I have used plastic coffee stirrers from the fast food joints; they start
> out smaller and they cost the same... ;-)
>
> 73,
>
> geo - n4ua
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:48 AM,  wrote:
>
> > From recent postings:
> >
> > > I started using Teflon sleeves in windings because I ran out of small
> > Teflon
> > wire wrap wire I was using. Without Teflon on the wires, and with normal
> > mag
> > wire, the enamel was easily scratched. Not only that, lightning would
> > punch
> > through from enamel to core, or from wire to wire.
> >
> > ** Telon is easily nicked, the type of wire used in modern vehicles is
> > very
> > robust but with the sleeves plain ole magnet wire works well and allows
> > even
> > smaller winding bundles.
> >
> >
> > RE: binocular cores and sleeving
> > I didn't have the right size of Teflon sleeves in my junque drawer, so I
> > cut
> > appropriate lengths of used soda straws from McD's, slit them lengthwise,
> > then cut off the excess (lengthwise).  Then I curled the cut straw
> > sections
> > and pushed them through the cores.  The result is a near perfect fit
> > with a slight overlap at the lengthwise cuts.  The overlaps can
> > be oriented toward the "outside" of the core so the wire won't
> > have a tendancy to open up the overlap.
> >
> > 73,
> > Charlie, N0TT
> > _
> > Topband Reflector
> >
> _
> Topband Reflector
>
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

[w4buw]

HI, RANDY...  TOM, W8JI, HAS GIVEN YOU SOME GOOD INPUTS.  WHAT YOU DO WITH HALF 
A DOZEN OR SO OF THE RADIAL ENDS PROBABLY WON'T RESULT IN ANYTHING MEASURABLE.


I THINK IT IS GREAT THAT YOU HAVE THE REAL ESTATE FOR THE INVERTED L AND GROUND 
PLANE RADIAL SYSTEM YOU DESCRIBE.  YOU PROBABLY ARE AWARE THAT WITH THE 60 
PROPOSED RADIALS @ 120 FT, THAT IS 7200+ FT OF RADIAL WIRE.  THERE OF COURSE IS 
SOME DIFFERENCE AS RADIALS ARE ADDED, HOWEVER YOU REACH A POINT OF DIMINISHING 
RETURNS, WHICH FEW WISH TO ADDRESS.  IN ADDITION, THERE IS ALSO THE OPTION OF 
NOT HAVING 1/4 WAVELENGTH RADIALS FOR THE ENTIRE SYSTEM, BUT APPLYING SOME OF 
THE WIRE TO SHORTER RADIALS TO ACCOMMODATE THE RETURN CURRENT DENSITY THAT 
INCREASES AS YOU APPROACH THE BASE OF THE ANTENNA (FEED POINT)...  I DON'T 
REMEMBER WHERE THE INFO IS, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN ARTICLES WHICH EVALUATE THE 
MOST EFFICIENT APPLICATION OF A GIVEN AMOUNT OF RADIAL WIRE.  SAME APPLIES TO 
NUMBER OF RADIALS AS COMPARED TO EFFICIENCY, ELEVATED RADIALS VS ON GROUND OR 
BURIED RADIAL SYSTEMS, ETC.


JUST GIVING YOU FOOD FOR THOUGHT.


GOOD LUCK WITH THE SYSTEM... 73 DE GEORGE, W4BUW



-Original Message-
From: AA8R 
To: topband 
Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 4:48 pm
Subject: Topband: Radials in the pond..?


I'm putting out 60 1/4 wave radials for my 160m Inverted L on the 
ground.   4-5 of those radials will end up in my pond with anywhere from 
5-10 feet to 25 feet in the pond for those 4-5 radials.  The pond is to 
the NN/E of the Inverted L.

Should I:
   1)  Just attach to each radial a heavy enough weigh at the end of 
those 4-5 radials and toss the weight into the pond?
   2) Coil up those 4-5 radials and lay the coil wire at the shore line ?
   3) String those radials along the shore line?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Randy,  AA8R
_
Topband Reflector

 
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding

[George Dubovsky]

I have used plastic coffee stirrers from the fast food joints; they start
out smaller and they cost the same... ;-)

73,

geo - n4ua


On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:48 AM,  wrote:

> From recent postings:
>
> > I started using Teflon sleeves in windings because I ran out of small
> Teflon
> wire wrap wire I was using. Without Teflon on the wires, and with normal
> mag
> wire, the enamel was easily scratched. Not only that, lightning would
> punch
> through from enamel to core, or from wire to wire.
>
> ** Telon is easily nicked, the type of wire used in modern vehicles is
> very
> robust but with the sleeves plain ole magnet wire works well and allows
> even
> smaller winding bundles.
>
>
> RE: binocular cores and sleeving
> I didn't have the right size of Teflon sleeves in my junque drawer, so I
> cut
> appropriate lengths of used soda straws from McD's, slit them lengthwise,
> then cut off the excess (lengthwise).  Then I curled the cut straw
> sections
> and pushed them through the cores.  The result is a near perfect fit
> with a slight overlap at the lengthwise cuts.  The overlaps can
> be oriented toward the "outside" of the core so the wire won't
> have a tendancy to open up the overlap.
>
> 73,
> Charlie, N0TT
> _
> Topband Reflector
>
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding

[n0tt1]

>From recent postings:

> I started using Teflon sleeves in windings because I ran out of small
Teflon 
wire wrap wire I was using. Without Teflon on the wires, and with normal
mag 
wire, the enamel was easily scratched. Not only that, lightning would
punch 
through from enamel to core, or from wire to wire.

** Telon is easily nicked, the type of wire used in modern vehicles is
very 
robust but with the sleeves plain ole magnet wire works well and allows
even 
smaller winding bundles.


RE: binocular cores and sleeving
I didn't have the right size of Teflon sleeves in my junque drawer, so I
cut
appropriate lengths of used soda straws from McD's, slit them lengthwise,
then cut off the excess (lengthwise).  Then I curled the cut straw
sections
and pushed them through the cores.  The result is a near perfect fit
with a slight overlap at the lengthwise cuts.  The overlaps can
be oriented toward the "outside" of the core so the wire won't 
have a tendancy to open up the overlap.

73,
Charlie, N0TT 
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding (pure resistancetransformation issues)

[Jim Brown]

On 8/20/2013 2:49 PM, ZR wrote:
Many Topband operators use their Beverages above 2 MHz. 


Yep. I use them extensively on 30, 40, and 80, and occasionally on 20. 
I've also used them on the AM broadcast band.


73, Jim K9YC
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

[Charlie Cunningham]

I have to agree with Tom. With 60 1/4 wave radials on the ground, you  are
going to have a pretty good ground anyway, and it won't matter much what
you do with a few of them. In my case, the ground rod and the 8 submerged
1/4 wave radials were all the ground that I had. The radials were 14 ga.
stranded bare copper wire.

Have fun!

73.
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:29 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

> I'm putting out 60 1/4 wave radials for my 160m Inverted L on the ground. 
> 4-5 of those radials will end up in my pond with anywhere from 5-10 feet 
> to 25 feet in the pond for those 4-5 radials.  The pond is to the NN/E of 
> the Inverted L.
>
> Should I:
>   1)  Just attach to each radial a heavy enough weigh at the end of those 
> 4-5 radials and toss the weight into the pond?
>   2) Coil up those 4-5 radials and lay the coil wire at the shore line ?
>   3) String those radials along the shore line?

Generally, freshwater is like very poor dirt. As it gets contaminated with 
certain impurities it can become better, but it is nothing even remotely 
like salt water.

With so many radials that long, what you do with the last 30 feet, even on 
half of them, won't matter much. Do whatever is easiest and best physically.

Cut them off, throw them in the water, bend them...it won't matter.

Of course if you want to impress people, run them into the water. Lot's of 
people will think that is awesome and will talk about it. If you tell people

you are doing that on the air, you might even get better signal reports. 
:-)

But in real dull practical life, it really won't matter what you do with 
them.

73 Tom 

_
Topband Reflector

_
Topband Reflector

Topband: Fw: RX antenna transformer winding (pureresistancetransformation issues)

[Bill Aycock]

-Original Message- 
From: Bill Aycock

Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:37 AM
To: ZR
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding 
(pureresistancetransformation issues)


ZR-- Don't those two statements say the same thing? ie, with high common
mode impedance, spacing can count.
Bill--W4BSG

-Original Message- 
From: ZR

Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:49 PM
To: Tom W8JI ; topband
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding
(pureresistancetransformation issues)


- Original Message - 
From: "Tom W8JI" 

To: "topband" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna transformer winding (pure
resistancetransformation issues)




Unless you have a system with pretty high common mode impedances, winding
spacing means nothing.

** Contrary to what you have stated elsewhere


The primary reason I (and DXE) isolate windings with
Teflon tubes is to reduce lighting damage, and to greatly reduce assembly
damage. If the system has pretty high common mode impedances there might be
some small advantage in pushing windings apart, but the primary-secondary
capacitance is never going to be important in Beverages or other low or
modest common mode impedance antennas. Balancing a small loop might be an
issue.

** Common mode is an overworked response for perceived ailments.
I took your low capacitance suggestions a step further after carefully
measuring C and frequency response for maintaining high directivity and F/B.
Many Topband operators use their Beverages above 2 MHz.


I started using Teflon sleeves in windings because I ran out of small Teflon
wire wrap wire I was using. Without Teflon on the wires, and with normal mag
wire, the enamel was easily scratched. Not only that, lightning would punch
through from enamel to core, or from wire to wire.

** Telon is easily nicked, the type of wire used in modern vehicles is very
robust but with the sleeves plain ole magnet wire works well and allows even
smaller winding bundles.
Since I was more interested in performance rather than production problems I
took the time to evaluate a large number of variations.

Carl
KM1H


_
Topband Reflector 


_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

[Charlie Cunningham]

Hi, Randy,,

Based on my experience, I would add weights to the radials that will enter
the pond and extend them as far into the water as possible.

My very first 160 inverted L was supported by a tall pine on the dam of a
lake. I owned the dam.  I drove an 8 foot ground rod at the water's edge and
attached 8 1/4 wave radials that I fanned out into the lake in a semicircle
from the dam. I used my canoe to install the radials.  I could see a
significant drop in the driving point impedance as the submerged radials
were added, eliminating a lot of the ground resistance in series with the
radiation resistance of the vertical. The VSWR bandwidth also reduced as the
Q increased. I should also mention that the lake had been treated with some
amount of copper sulfate to suppress some of the vegetative growth.

I expect that your pond will certainly have inorganic impurities in the
water that will increase its conductivity and improve your ground
connection.

In my case,that simple inverted L was quite a good performer, and some of
the things that  I worked from my  location in Raleigh NC were VK6, VK3, ZL,
JA, 3B8, KX6, KH6, ZS  and many Europeans - all with about 400W.

GL!

73,
Charlie, K4OT V

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of AA8R
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:34 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

I'm putting out 60 1/4 wave radials for my 160m Inverted L on the 
ground.   4-5 of those radials will end up in my pond with anywhere from 
5-10 feet to 25 feet in the pond for those 4-5 radials.  The pond is to 
the NN/E of the Inverted L.

Should I:
   1)  Just attach to each radial a heavy enough weigh at the end of 
those 4-5 radials and toss the weight into the pond?
   2) Coil up those 4-5 radials and lay the coil wire at the shore line ?
   3) String those radials along the shore line?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Randy,  AA8R
_
Topband Reflector

_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Radials in the pond..?

[Tom W8JI]

I'm putting out 60 1/4 wave radials for my 160m Inverted L on the ground. 
4-5 of those radials will end up in my pond with anywhere from 5-10 feet 
to 25 feet in the pond for those 4-5 radials.  The pond is to the NN/E of 
the Inverted L.


Should I:
  1)  Just attach to each radial a heavy enough weigh at the end of those 
4-5 radials and toss the weight into the pond?

  2) Coil up those 4-5 radials and lay the coil wire at the shore line ?
  3) String those radials along the shore line?


Generally, freshwater is like very poor dirt. As it gets contaminated with 
certain impurities it can become better, but it is nothing even remotely 
like salt water.


With so many radials that long, what you do with the last 30 feet, even on 
half of them, won't matter much. Do whatever is easiest and best physically. 
Cut them off, throw them in the water, bend them...it won't matter.


Of course if you want to impress people, run them into the water. Lot's of 
people will think that is awesome and will talk about it. If you tell people 
you are doing that on the air, you might even get better signal reports. 
:-)


But in real dull practical life, it really won't matter what you do with 
them.


73 Tom 


_
Topband Reflector