Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials

[KB8NTY]

Eddie,

Great Job!
I would not worry to take results any further unless an individual request.

Your results are a helpful visual, resulting in the fact that indeed you can
obtain increased DB's as a result of simple RF ground radials!
Those who re-quote the statement that a "vertical antenna radiates equally
poor in all directions" need to learn about ground radials...

The subject has been worked & re-worked by many in years past, with varied
results by those who have investigated.
N6LF - Rudy comes to mind with his very detailed study.

To keep it simple & allow the hobby to remain enjoyable-your results should
speak volumes.
Adding radials equal increased efficiency.

I have a filtered RF ground radial link available below, which should offer
those who may have interest in RF ground radials, hours & hours of good
interesting reading.
http://www.rossradio.net/

Thank you Eddie for your contribution!

-73- KB8NTY
http://www.rossradio.net/



++


- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 12:00 PM
Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 129, Issue 29



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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Hairpin Matching Coil Questions - "Shunt"? (Jim GM)
  2. 'Hairpin' matching (Tom Boucher)
  3. Re: Hairpin Matching Coil Questions - "Shunt"? (Tom W8JI)
  4. 'Hairpin' matching (Tom Boucher)
  5. AutoEZ v2 with Optimizer (Dan Maguire)
  6. Re: 'Hairpin' matching (Charlie Cunningham)
  7. Re: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing
 radials (Eduardo Araujo)
  8. Re: AutoEZ v2 with Optimizer (Charlie Cunningham)
  9. Re: 'Hairpin' matching (John Chappell G3XRJ)
 10. Re: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing
 radials (Charlie Cunningham)
 11. Re: elevated radials (Mike Waters)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 13:25:02 -0500
From: Jim GM 
To: topband 
Subject: Re: Topband: Hairpin Matching Coil Questions - "Shunt"?
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thankyou Charlie.

I got those Q numbers from
http://www.m0ukd.com/Calculators/air_core_inductor_calculator/
Maybe a decimal point was left out.

Thanks Tom

--
Jim K9TF


--

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 19:52:33 +0100
From: "Tom Boucher" 
To: "160 reflector" 
Subject: Topband: 'Hairpin' matching
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Just to add a comment on this thread:

I do not use an inductor to match my inverted 'L', just a capacitor from 
coax centre/bottom of wire to the radial point. Further I do not use big 
wide space 'toast-rack' Cs, but tiny ceramic ones rated at 6.3KV which 
will handle very decent amounts of power and are readily available over 
here. They seem to handle the high currents at the bottom of the quarter 
wave 'L' quite happily.


I measure the impedance at resonance of the antenna without any matching 
network, then use

www.sandiego.edu/~ekim/e194rfs01/jwmatcher2.html

to calculate the L-network values needed. Fit the parallel capacitor then 
lengthen the antenna slightly to bring it back to the required frequency. 
This provides the inductance necessary for the L-network.




Needless to say, your MFJ, or Palstar ZM-30 in my case, antenna analyser 
will probably give you the wrong sign for the reactive part of the 
antenna's impedance. This had me going for a long time before I realised 
the problem! Check this by moving the analyser frequency LF from resonance 
and the impedance should show -jX (capacitive). Moving the analyser HF 
from resonance should show inductive reactance (+jX).




My inverted 'L' needs 1600pF to give me 50 + j0.



I have also made switched L-networks to successfully resonate the same 
antenna on some other bands.




73

Tom G3OLB


--

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 16:22:57 -0400
From: "Tom W8JI" 
To: "Jim GM" , "topband"

Subject: Re: Topband: Hairpin Matching Coil Questions - "Shunt"?
Message-ID: <3F7B5C34343645EF9DDACB0DCBFC62E3@MAIN>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original


Thankyou Charlie.

I got those Q numbers from
http://www.m0ukd.com/Calculators/air_core_inductor_calculator/
Maybe a decimal point was left out.


Jim,

I thought something was misleading you somewhere.


Be careful with online calculators. The one in the link uses pi out to 39
places (which might give the impression of accuracy), but omits many far
more critical, import

Topband: Beacon

[DnEMoth]

One watt beacon on 1999.5 located at Chittenango, NY 15 miles east of  
Syracuse, NY @ FN23ba.
_dnemoth@aol.com_ (mailto:dnem...@aol.com)   Will be on until  11:00 PM. 
03:00 Sunday
_
Topband Reflector

Topband: BEACON

[DnEMoth]

Anyone copying my 1 watt 160 meter beacon on 1999.5 please notify me at 
 _dnemoth@aol.com_ (mailto:dnem...@aol.com) ...
It will be on until 03:00 Sunday (11:00 PM this evening).
THANK YOU
Don
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: location

[Bill Cromwell]

On 09/21/2013 04:11 PM, DALE LONG wrote:

Bill:

Expect the unexpected.  If you are using insulated wire, it can be broken 
inside the insulation...Easy to check the wire for continuity.. Be absolutely 
sure all connections are really clean..

If you have a 1/4 vertical that is not touching another metal object, it should 
tune up.

Try bypassing the tuner completely (not just putting the tuner in bypass mode) 
and check with antenna analyzer where it is resonant.  That should give you 
some ideas.  Perhaps your antenna is too short or too long.  If you have a 1/4 
vertical, you should not need a tuner unless you want to ragchew above 1900 
KHz...You really need to find the resonant frequency of what you have.

An ineffective antenna is one thing, but sounds like your antenna is not even resonant on 
160m.  (from your description of "not loading on 160"). Antenna analyzers are a 
wonderful tool.

Best 73

Dale - N3BNA



Hi Dale,

Thanks for your comments. I do have a couple of Grid dip 
oscillators...one grid dip and one gate dip. I need to figure out where 
the dial calibration on both them actually is and get the resonance 
info. That will still not tell me what impedance I'm looking at.


After I posted I dug an old power supply board out and found a two and 
half inch ferrite donut with heavy wire windings on it (two of them 
actually). I fooled around and ended up with the rig and 'tuner' getting 
happy on 160. I have 18 turns on the antenna side and 5 turns on the 
radio side. I'll give it a try tonight when there are some people on and 
the RBN skimmers are back on the band. Obviously that changed the 
settings for 80 and 40 but 80 and 40 still load up okay. The real test 
is successful QSOs! I have to wait for dark when those other people come 
out to play.


73,

Bill  KU8H

_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: location

[DALE LONG]

Bill:

Expect the unexpected.  If you are using insulated wire, it can be broken 
inside the insulation...Easy to check the wire for continuity.. Be absolutely 
sure all connections are really clean.. 

If you have a 1/4 vertical that is not touching another metal object, it should 
tune up.

Try bypassing the tuner completely (not just putting the tuner in bypass mode) 
and check with antenna analyzer where it is resonant.  That should give you 
some ideas.  Perhaps your antenna is too short or too long.  If you have a 1/4 
vertical, you should not need a tuner unless you want to ragchew above 1900 
KHz...You really need to find the resonant frequency of what you have.

An ineffective antenna is one thing, but sounds like your antenna is not even 
resonant on 160m.  (from your description of "not loading on 160"). Antenna 
analyzers are a wonderful tool.  

Best 73

Dale - N3BNA



 From: Bill Cromwell 
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: location
 

Hi,

I'm dealing with life on a small lot, too. I have a wire up (quarter wave on 
160) that somewhat wants to work. I can load it through a matching network (aka 
tuner) on 80, 40, etc but it does NOT want to load on 160 meters. I can hear 
quite a bit but TX is woefully inadequate. I plan to raise it higher off the 
ground AND redo the counterpoise. I expect I'll have to make some sort of 
transformer to get it to load well, too. There are enough pieces that I am not 
planning to do anything until after I build the impedance measurement bridge 
and get some idea of just where to go. Meanwhile I might whiz up some 
transformers and take a shot in the dark but without knowing where I am I can't 
really know how to get somewhere else. Maybe I'll get lucky. Those counterpoise 
wires - like the antenna wire - cannot run in straight lines because there is 
not enough room (maybe one or two can).

That same antenna used down below 500 kc has pulled in NDB stations from as far 
away as 1225 miles! When I try to pump about 35 watts into it I'm lucky if even 
ONE RBN receiver hears it and the signal is dismal. I only get that much when I 
remove the 'tuner' and feed the antenna direct from the Ranger's Pi network. 80 
and 40 are good to go with that wire at less than 5 watts.

If I get it to work I'll be back with more info. I am getting my own ideas of 
what to try from some of the same articles online that you guys have 
referenced. Trying to adapt to what I have here.

73,

Bill  KU8H


On 09/21/2013 09:31 AM, James Rodenkirch wrote:
>  
> 
> During the summer of 2011 I came across a website hosted by
> Simone Mannini, IW5EDI, of Firenze, Italy, that featured a “160 meter antenna
> for a small lot.”  The information and
> picture, supplied by Troy Martin, K5CBL, of Madill, Oklahoma, intrigued me. 
> For details on the IW5EDI antenna,
> visit his website at .
>   Thinking,
> “Why not?,” I assembled the “small lot” antenna, found five 75’ foot wires to
> use as counterpoises/radials, erected the antenna temporarily outside my shack
> and ran the five counterpoise wires along the back patio deck and out on the
> front yard.
> 
> 
> I connected
> the antenna to my venerable ICOM 735, keyed it up and found the SWR, without a
> tuner, was 1.3:1! It was Miller Time! Cranking
> the power down as low as it could go – and inserting a quickly-assembled 2db
> in-line attenuator – I entered the 2010 CQ WW 160 Meter Contest in the QRP
> category. At the end of the contest, I had garnered 182 QSOs, 37 multipliers
> and 3 (count ’em, THREE) DXCC multipliers.
> There ya go - quick, easy way top get on 160 and have some fun!
>   72, Jim Rodenkirch, K9JWV
> 

_
Topband Reflector
_
Topband Reflector

Topband: 4NEC2 and AutoEZ

[Rudy Severns]

4NEC2 is a great piece of software and I recommend it regularly, certainly 
the price is right.  But AutoEZ is different.  If you have EZNEC then AutoEZ 
provides a extensive toolbag for modeling which goes well beyond what's 
available in EZNEC or 4NEC2.


If you are designing arrays, with their phasing networks, doing parameter 
studies or exploring unusual configurations AutoEZ is very helpful and 
greatly speeds up the modeling.


73, Rudy N6LF


_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: AutoEZ

[Bill Cromwell]

Thanks,

...for saving me the trouble of ever downloading AutoEZ.

73,

Bill  KU8H


On 09/21/2013 11:47 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:




AutoEZ only supports exactly Microsoft Excel with the latest
service pack.  Period.  As described on the AutoEZ site.

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector



_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: AutoEZ

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 9/21/2013 4:13 AM, Richard Fry wrote:

Rick N6RK:

The stumbling block with AutoEZ is that you have to have a copy of
Microsoft Excel, and it has to be exactly that, not a clone like Open
Office or Libre. ... Can anyone point me to an economical solution to
this dilemma?


You might download and try the Kingsoft Office Suite, which is free.



AutoEZ only supports exactly Microsoft Excel with the latest
service pack.  Period.  As described on the AutoEZ site.

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: elevated radials

[Carl]

I would expect that after X number of elevated radials it becomes moot. 
Height and ground conductivity determine the actual number.


For my poor ground and 20' elevation it was somewhere around 24 based upon 
the antenna analyzer. Since all were run over branches and a lot of dead 
wood falls around here in the winter I went to 32 to have a few extra.


Carl
KM1H
- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Waters" 

To: "topband" 
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: elevated radials



Hello Jim,

Thank you for this. I don't doubt for a second that my elevated 1/4 wave
radial currents may be unequal. I should throw together an RF current 
meter

and check them sometime, and add more radials while I'm at it. After the
ticks and chiggers here die, though. :-)

I don't have any Communications Quarterly issues, but K5IU's article 
sounds

interesting, if anyone has a copy.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

**

Hey Mike

Saw your post to TB reflector:

"I suppose if you made the elevated radials long, then you could adjust
the current balance with series variable capacitors. You could use a 
simple

clamp-on meter like W8JI has on his site to measure the relative current,
perhaps.I didn't bother with that myself, I was just careful to keep the
radial lengths the same length and height."

My old friend K5IU had an article "Optimum Elevated Radial Vertical
Antennas" in Communication Quarterly, Spring 1997, pp 9 - 27.  He showed
why 1/4 wave elevated radials are the worst length as it invariably 
results

in radials having unequal currents (at least on the low bands where the
height is small in terms of lambda).  He only concluded the pattern was
distorted, explicitly stating no opinion on efficiency.  Dick is pretty
careful - he likes actual measurements. The fix was to use non-1/4 wave
radials with a single lumped reactance between the shield and the 
junction
of all the radials to bring to resonance.  Using separate reactors for 
each

radial makes it too critical to adjust.

Since some of his measurements showed next to no current in some radials,
I figured right off the efficiency would almost always be higher with 
equal

currents, even when using shorter radials of the same number.  I never
needed to use elevated radials, so it was all merely academic for me.

I'll bet anything you have very unequal currents in your elevated radials
despite their being precisely the same physical length.  Dick's article
shows how he measured the currents with a simple HB device.  Don't know 
if

it is simpler than W8JI's or not.


_
Topband Reflector


-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3222/6182 - Release Date: 09/19/13



_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: The best ears ...

[ZR]

Back about 20 years ago K1MEM (SK) and I worked about 20 miles on 160 with 
Heath Cantennas in the basement at both ends. Both rigs at 100W. With no 
band noise the pee weak signals were perfect copy.


This started when I heard Jim testing while I was on the Beverage. I called 
him on our local group 222 MHz simplex frequency and set up the test.


Carl
KM1H

- Original Message - 
From: "Jon Zaimes AA1K" 

To: "topband" 
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 8:34 PM
Subject: Topband: The best ears ...


A few days ago I finally got around to resurrecting my screwdriver antenna 
that had met its demise many months back when a 7-year-old stainless steel 
mounting bolt suffered metal fatigue.. I was 5 miles down the road before a 
passing motorist brought it to my attention, and there was serious damage 
from its horizontal journey on the roadway.


After finding some 1-inch aluminum rod locally and purchasing a 
larger-than-previous Grade 8 steel bolt, I once again had the antenna 
mounted on my 2009 VW Jetta. I finished this up after dark yesterday only 
to discover that the motor no longer worked. Additionally, chafing from 
when it was dragged on the road surface had effectively shorted out about 
a quarter of the coil length, so it was nowhere near resonance on 160 
meters. Nor was it resonant on any other band.


I was out of time so left it be and was at least satisfied I'd be able to 
listen to HF again on my morning hour-long commute.


When I hit the road at 0830z today I was pleased to hear some early 
activity. For a lark I did try calling the W1, W2 and W3 stations who were 
CQing, but none took notice. With the IC-706 showing infinity for SWR and 
the output power clamped down to just a few watts, I really wasn't 
surprised.


About 30 minutes into my trip I heard VE1ZZ calling CQ. Again I dropped my 
call a few times, and when I stopped there was a long pause before Jack 
came back with a QRZ, then a busted call and finally getting it right and 
we exchanged reports. I was truly amazed that anyone could hear me with 
this poor antenna.


A few minutes later VY2ZM was CQ'ing, and when I called Jeff came right 
back, with an even better report than Jack had given me. Again I was 
amazed.


So my hat's off to these two veterans of Topband and their great ears who 
could pull out such a puny signal!


73/Jon AA1K/m

_
Topband Reflector


-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3222/6186 - Release Date: 09/20/13



_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: location

[Bill Cromwell]

Hi,

I'm dealing with life on a small lot, too. I have a wire up (quarter 
wave on 160) that somewhat wants to work. I can load it through a 
matching network (aka tuner) on 80, 40, etc but it does NOT want to load 
on 160 meters. I can hear quite a bit but TX is woefully inadequate. I 
plan to raise it higher off the ground AND redo the counterpoise. I 
expect I'll have to make some sort of transformer to get it to load 
well, too. There are enough pieces that I am not planning to do anything 
until after I build the impedance measurement bridge and get some idea 
of just where to go. Meanwhile I might whiz up some transformers and 
take a shot in the dark but without knowing where I am I can't really 
know how to get somewhere else. Maybe I'll get lucky. Those counterpoise 
wires - like the antenna wire - cannot run in straight lines because 
there is not enough room (maybe one or two can).


That same antenna used down below 500 kc has pulled in NDB stations from 
as far away as 1225 miles! When I try to pump about 35 watts into it I'm 
lucky if even ONE RBN receiver hears it and the signal is dismal. I only 
get that much when I remove the 'tuner' and feed the antenna direct from 
the Ranger's Pi network. 80 and 40 are good to go with that wire at less 
than 5 watts.


If I get it to work I'll be back with more info. I am getting my own 
ideas of what to try from some of the same articles online that you guys 
have referenced. Trying to adapt to what I have here.


73,

Bill  KU8H


On 09/21/2013 09:31 AM, James Rodenkirch wrote:
  



During the summer of 2011 I came across a website hosted by
Simone Mannini, IW5EDI, of Firenze, Italy, that featured a “160 meter antenna
for a small lot.”  The information and
picture, supplied by Troy Martin, K5CBL, of Madill, Oklahoma, intrigued me. For 
details on the IW5EDI antenna,
visit his website at .
  Thinking,
“Why not?,” I assembled the “small lot” antenna, found five 75’ foot wires to
use as counterpoises/radials, erected the antenna temporarily outside my shack
and ran the five counterpoise wires along the back patio deck and out on the
front yard.


I connected
the antenna to my venerable ICOM 735, keyed it up and found the SWR, without a
tuner, was 1.3:1! It was Miller Time! Cranking
the power down as low as it could go – and inserting a quickly-assembled 2db
in-line attenuator – I entered the 2010 CQ WW 160 Meter Contest in the QRP
category. At the end of the contest, I had garnered 182 QSOs, 37 multipliers
and 3 (count ’em, THREE) DXCC multipliers.
There ya go - quick, easy way top get on 160 and have some fun!
  
72, Jim Rodenkirch, K9JWV




_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: location

[James Rodenkirch]

 


During the summer of 2011 I came across a website hosted by
Simone Mannini, IW5EDI, of Firenze, Italy, that featured a “160 meter antenna
for a small lot.”  The information and
picture, supplied by Troy Martin, K5CBL, of Madill, Oklahoma, intrigued me. For 
details on the IW5EDI antenna,
visit his website at . 
 Thinking,
“Why not?,” I assembled the “small lot” antenna, found five 75’ foot wires to
use as counterpoises/radials, erected the antenna temporarily outside my shack
and ran the five counterpoise wires along the back patio deck and out on the
front yard.


I connected
the antenna to my venerable ICOM 735, keyed it up and found the SWR, without a
tuner, was 1.3:1! It was Miller Time! Cranking
the power down as low as it could go – and inserting a quickly-assembled 2db
in-line attenuator – I entered the 2010 CQ WW 160 Meter Contest in the QRP
category. At the end of the contest, I had garnered 182 QSOs, 37 multipliers
and 3 (count ’em, THREE) DXCC multipliers. 
There ya go - quick, easy way top get on 160 and have some fun!
 
72, Jim Rodenkirch, K9JWV

 
> From: kd8...@suddenlink.net
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 09:35:53 -0400
> Subject: Topband: location
> 
> look me up on qrz I need help trying to get on 160 meters. 
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector
  
_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: AutoEZ

[Richard Fry]

Rick N6RK:
The stumbling block with AutoEZ is that you have to have a copy of 
Microsoft Excel, and it has to be exactly that, not a clone like Open 
Office or Libre. ... Can anyone point me to an economical solution to this 
dilemma?


You might download and try the Kingsoft Office Suite, which is free.

I installed it on my WIN7 Starter netbook and also on my WIN8 laptop -- and 
it runs without a glitch on both.  I can open/run/edit files I wrote in 
Excel 97 and Excel 2000 having extensive math and graphics.


It has a very low learning curve for anyone familiar with MS Office.

http://www.kingsoftstore.com/

RF 


_
Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: AutoEZ

[Paul Christensen]

4Nec2 supports current sources, as well as surface/ground wave modeling --  
as has been discussed here in past weeks and should be of importance to 
topbanders.


It may be worth having a look at the most recent versions of the 4Nec2 
software.


Paul, W9AC

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 

To: "Rick Kiessig" 
Cc: "'topband'" 
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: AutoEZ





On 9/20/2013 1:14 PM, Rick Kiessig wrote:
Although I like and use (and have paid for) EZNEC, I've been using the 
free

4nec2 app for optimization -- perhaps that's another option for those
without Excel.

73, Rick ZL2HAM


I recently looked at 4nec2.  Correct me if I am
missing something, but this software cannot do
many important extensions to the NEC engine that
EZNEC does, such as current sources.  The lack
of current sources is sufficient to rule out
4nec2 for me.  There are many other deficiencies
in 4nec2.  It really makes EZNEC look good.

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector 


_
Topband Reflector