Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Actually, Gary, if we triangulate using Victor's 150 deg bearing from Carroll, Ohio and your 180 degree bearing from SE CT, we could plot an intersection and figure out just about where the source is! I suspect that the modulation that Tim said was too rapid for QSB is likely due to swells and wave motion on the sea surface, and those carriers with no IDs may be NDBs on buoys on drift nets. 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
This is an example of a fishnet buoy that operates from 1.6 to 4 MHz. http://www.blueoceantackle.com/radio_buoys.htm The good news is they're battery operated and will ultimately have to be retrieved for battery replacement. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com To: g...@ka1j.com, Topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 6:21:23 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
I'm using a HI-Z triangular array. Both of these signals are nulled significantly due north and are loudest due south not quite as loud SW SE from here. BTW, Gary - how are you measuring direction on 80m? -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Yes, that's what I was thinking too. The link Frank posted mentions continuous operation which is something I hadn't experienced on 160. What is amazing to me is how loud their signals are compared to other signals I hear on the band. I understand its their saltwater location but that's pretty much what I have too and if I was at 100 watts I doubt I'd be as loud as those 3W-8W transmitters. Since they're on frequencies that are outside the 1900-1999Khz they are most likely from some foreign ported ship operating close to our shore. Aggravating they make any of those bouys designed to operate in ham bands at all. 73, Gary KA1J BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Carriers here this morning are at 3500.85 khz 3501.58 khz 3503.16 khz Using nulls from my 8-direction K9AY loop, I put the signal between 135 and 150 degrees from DN36. If that helps at all, Steve, KK7UV _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
A steady carrier from fish net beacons doesn't fit the pattern of the ones everyone has heard on 160. That would deplete the batteries fairly quickly. All the ones I know of send a short carrier and a CW ID followed by a long period of silence. That lets them be unattended for several days. If it is a FNB, perhaps it has a large-capacity battery and solar panels, or the batteries are manually replaced daily. Maybe it's RFI from that floating Google data center barge. ;-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com wrote: Seems that I saw something a while back about some fishing beacons on the low end of 80m ( or maybe 160m -but I think it was 80m) _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Approximately 128 deg from WD8DSB (EM69) using small DF loop. On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: A steady carrier from fish net beacons doesn't fit the pattern of the ones everyone has heard on 160. That would deplete the batteries fairly quickly. All the ones I know of send a short carrier and a CW ID followed by a long period of silence. That lets them be unattended for several days. If it is a FNB, perhaps it has a large-capacity battery and solar panels, or the batteries are manually replaced daily. Maybe it's RFI from that floating Google data center barge. ;-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com wrote: Seems that I saw something a while back about some fishing beacons on the low end of 80m ( or maybe 160m -but I think it was 80m) _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
It's mostly S8 on my SE 580' Beverage here in SW Missouri. Rather fast QSB down to S6. On the NE 580' Bev, mostly S3 to S6, but I just saw the signal about equal on both antennas. 73, Mike www,w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Clarification: my NE Beverage is actually about 55 degrees. (The SE Bev is 135 degrees.) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 6:45 AM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: It's mostly S8 on my SE 580' Beverage here in SW Missouri. Rather fast QSB down to S6. On the NE 580' Bev, mostly S3 to S6, but I just saw the signal about equal on both antennas. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
I'm mapping the data, but nothing to hang my hat on at this time. The data from Steve (KK7UV) does not intersect any of the other reports (odd). A heading from W8JI or AA1K would be very helpful. Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 7:45 AM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: It's mostly S8 on my SE 580' Beverage here in SW Missouri. Rather fast QSB down to S6. On the NE 580' Bev, mostly S3 to S6, but I just saw the signal about equal on both antennas. 73, Mike www,w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Topband: Steady carrier on 80 cw
There is a carrier on 1749.3 in the same direction about 150 degrees from Michigan. Harmonics anyone. _ Topband Reflector
Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
I noticed the day after the contest, all the fish net beacons on 160 were missing. Got wondering if contest QRM had anything to do with it. coincidence ? The 2nd day after, a couple, but not all came back. 73 Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html - Original Message - From: donov...@starpower.net To: Topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:30 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW This is an example of a fishnet buoy that operates from 1.6 to 4 MHz. http://www.blueoceantackle.com/radio_buoys.htm The good news is they're battery operated and will ultimately have to be retrieved for battery replacement. 73 Frank W3LPL _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Thanks for that link, Frank! Very enlightening and interesting!! It does seem to fit with my speculation that those carriers might be from buoys! I'm impressed with the directional resolution available to some folks on this reflector! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 2:31 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW This is an example of a fishnet buoy that operates from 1.6 to 4 MHz. http://www.blueoceantackle.com/radio_buoys.htm The good news is they're battery operated and will ultimately have to be retrieved for battery replacement. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com To: g...@ka1j.com, Topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 6:21:23 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Thanks for the information, Gary! I'm impressed with and envious of your directional resolution capability! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 5:35 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I'm using a HI-Z triangular array. Both of these signals are nulled significantly due north and are loudest due south not quite as loud SW SE from here. BTW, Gary - how are you measuring direction on 80m? -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Thanks, Gary Well, there are many vessels from Japan, Korea, US and Canada (and others) that operate out there! Yes, unfortunate that we have intruders in our bands! 73, Charlie,K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 5:36 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW Yes, that's what I was thinking too. The link Frank posted mentions continuous operation which is something I hadn't experienced on 160. What is amazing to me is how loud their signals are compared to other signals I hear on the band. I understand its their saltwater location but that's pretty much what I have too and if I was at 100 watts I doubt I'd be as loud as those 3W-8W transmitters. Since they're on frequencies that are outside the 1900-1999Khz they are most likely from some foreign ported ship operating close to our shore. Aggravating they make any of those bouys designed to operate in ham bands at all. 73, Gary KA1J BTW, Gary, When Tim, K3LR, started this thread he also reported that the signals peaked at around 150 deg, from Middlesex, PA, so that, combined with your due south bearing, would also put the source out to sea! ( and not in NC or SC) 73, Charlie, K4OTV --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Charlie, My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com wrote: I'm impressed with the directional resolution available to some folks on this reflector! _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Thanks, Gary and Mike Well, with my small lot, about all I can do is be envious!! :-) 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 10:05 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW Charlie, mine's nowhere as good as the 8 element array they offer and others here have far better antennae than I. This offending signal is just stronger from my south and the HI-Z antennas do work as advertised. I'm someday going to get their 8 element array. Unfortunately I can't add to my existing phasing or controller for the 3 element so it'll be a whole new purchase. There's a Yamaha FJR1300 in-between now then... :) 73, Gary KA1J Thanks for the information, Gary! I'm impressed with and envious of your directional resolution capability! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 5:35 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I'm using a HI-Z triangular array. Both of these signals are nulled significantly due north and are loudest due south not quite as loud SW SE from here. BTW, Gary - how are you measuring direction on 80m? -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:18 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW 3.503.1 due south from SE CT. 3.501.6 due south from SE CT 73, Gary KA1J There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Duffy Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:45 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Funny that this should come up. My daughter Lina is part of the crew on the SSV Corwith Cramer, sailing (135ft, 2-master) that left Woods Hole, MA on October 13, sailing due south to Bequia (the Grenadines) and finishing up in St. Croix. This is a scientific (i.e., research) vessel --Lina's and environmental sciences student). While ship has lots of electronics, I haven't been able to find any specifics other than that they have Inmarsat phone and data, and an Argos satellite transmitter (beacon) on a buoy. We'll be meeting her in St.Crox in 3 weeks. I'll I'll look around and find out what they have. The latest position I have for them is Thursday 31 October 2013 Position: 20° 33.4’ N x 058° 45.4’ W Heading: 174° True Speed: 5.5 knots, motor sailing under the two staysy ls Weather: Wind ESE Force 4, cumulous and cirrus cloud cover, air temperature 29.5°C Yesterday: Wednesday 30 October 2013 Position: 22° 30.5’ W x 58° 39.2 ‘W Heading: 174° True Speed: 3 knots, sailing under all fore and aft sail Weather: Wind SE Force 3, Swell 6 feet 73, Eric W3DQ Washington, DC - Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:14 -0400 From: Tim Duffy k...@k3lr.com To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR -- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 23:37:57 -0400 From: Tim Duffy k...@k3lr.com To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW There appears to be a second carrier coming from the same direction on 3503.1. It is not as strong as the one on 3501.4. So whatever is going on - two steady carriers are on the low end of 80 CW. 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to exaggerate ability to determine direction. It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an interferometer of normal receiving antennas. An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees. Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees. Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 degrees. A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear spot and properly constructed. An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees. A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees. My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England. When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, and not the absolute numbers. _ Topband Reflector
Topband: TEST on 1830
Anyone else hearing this? It's south from Maine. 73, Roger -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the past). I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported (what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is using when he reports a heading). 15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England states... Same problem out in the Northwest US, but opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees. Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to exaggerate ability to determine direction. It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an interferometer of normal receiving antennas. An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees. Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees. Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 degrees. A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear spot and properly constructed. An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees. A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees. My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England. When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, and not the absolute numbers. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: TEST on 1830
Roger, if you are testing you might use the reverse beacon network. Make several CW CQ calls and maybe a 'skimmer' will hear you...neat hi tech way to see if one is getting out.. gives sig. strength rprt too. 73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com To: Top Band Reflector topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 11:16:19 AM Subject: Topband: TEST on 1830 Anyone else hearing this? It's south from Maine. 73, Roger -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: TEST on 1830
Don't think Roger was testing. I think he was reporting a signal he was hearing from the south of ME. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:16 PM To: Roger D Johnson Cc: Top Band Reflector Subject: Re: Topband: TEST on 1830 Roger, if you are testing you might use the reverse beacon network. Make several CW CQ calls and maybe a 'skimmer' will hear you...neat hi tech way to see if one is getting out.. gives sig. strength rprt too. 73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com To: Top Band Reflector topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 11:16:19 AM Subject: Topband: TEST on 1830 Anyone else hearing this? It's south from Maine. 73, Roger -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Tim, I've been hearing these carriers for several days and confirmed with W8VVG and K4IQJ yesterday that they aren't ghosts in my machine. I sent the info we gathered to the ARRL (K0BOG), who will enlist their Official Observers to track them down. 73 -- Brian K1LI -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:14 -0400 From: Tim Duffy To: Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: TEST on 1830
You're correct, Charlie. Someone sending TEST in slow CW for last couple of days. It's loudest on my south Beverage. 73, Roger On 11/1/2013 11:23 AM, Charlie Cunningham wrote: Don't think Roger was testing. I think he was reporting a signal he was hearing from the south of ME. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:16 PM To: Roger D Johnson Cc: Top Band Reflector Subject: Re: Topband: TEST on 1830 Roger, if you are testing you might use the reverse beacon network. Make several CW CQ calls and maybe a 'skimmer' will hear you...neat hi tech way to see if one is getting out.. gives sig. strength rprt too. 73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: Roger D Johnsonn...@roadrunner.com To: Top Band Reflectortopband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 11:16:19 AM Subject: Topband: TEST on 1830 Anyone else hearing this? It's south from Maine. 73, Roger -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: TEST on 1830
Smithfield, NC? -Original Message- From: Bill Stewart [mailto:cw...@embarqmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:46 PM To: Charlie Cunningham Cc: Top Band Reflector; Roger D Johnson Subject: Re: Topband: TEST on 1830 Hi Charlie, I wasn't sure...subj. sorta sounded like he might be testing. I'm still hearing the 80m sigs here near Smithfield. Much weaker now, but readable. No dir. antennas so can't add to the thread..but interesting reading. 73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com To: Bill Stewart cw...@embarqmail.com, Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com Cc: Top Band Reflector topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 12:23:38 PM Subject: RE: Topband: TEST on 1830 Don't think Roger was testing. I think he was reporting a signal he was hearing from the south of ME. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:16 PM To: Roger D Johnson Cc: Top Band Reflector Subject: Re: Topband: TEST on 1830 Roger, if you are testing you might use the reverse beacon network. Make several CW CQ calls and maybe a 'skimmer' will hear you...neat hi tech way to see if one is getting out.. gives sig. strength rprt too. 73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com To: Top Band Reflector topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 11:16:19 AM Subject: Topband: TEST on 1830 Anyone else hearing this? It's south from Maine. 73, Roger -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the past). I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported (what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is using when he reports a heading). The best procedure is to use multiple stations with known locations to calibrate, and use a movable null. For example, if I use a DXE NCC-1 as a combiner for interferometer use, I can calibrate from W1AW and other ham stations in that general area. I can then easily resolve directions that are just 2 degrees apart in heading at that distance. Without that, just using the eight circle, I cannot really resolve middle NY from eastern Mass. I think as the FCC becomes less and less involved, and as their DF sites continue to deteriorate, hams may have to pick up their own system. The important point of this is that bearings have tolerances, sometimes very wide tolerances, so any plots should look like V's with ranges rather than lines. The best thing is always to get data from people with right angle lines, especially those close to the problem, and to look at the plots based on the real resolution of each plot. Some might be 120 degrees wide, and very few will be narrower than 20-30 degrees. _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Hi, Don Well, we can improve on that by using a solar determination of true North. The way that I do it for my antenna arrays is: 1.0 Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for your location on the day that you are going to make the determination. 2.0 Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon. 3.0 At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North. (Best done on sunny day of course!) 73. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:31 AM To: Tom W8JI Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the past). I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported (what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is using when he reports a heading). 15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England states... Same problem out in the Northwest US, but opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees. Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to exaggerate ability to determine direction. It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an interferometer of normal receiving antennas. An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees. Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees. Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 degrees. A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear spot and properly constructed. An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees. A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees. My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England. When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, and not the absolute numbers. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
Or a compass laying on a camera tripod, and an up-to-date magnetic declination map (Google it). 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com wrote: ... by using a solar determination of true North. The way that I do it for my antenna arrays is: 1.0 Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for your location on the day that you are going to make the determination. 2.0 Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon. 3.0 At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North. (Best done on sunny day of course!) _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW
How about a compass and declination map? A bit simpler good enough +/- 2 degrees. http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/WMM/image.shtml The standard for course plots on nautical charts is the letter T for true or M for magnetic after the degrees number and then an arrow to indicate for which direction the marking is valid. Of course, for antennas we really never care about magnetic headings so the only T makes sense to quote. Grant KZ1W On 11/1/2013 10:12 AM, Charlie Cunningham wrote: Hi, Don Well, we can improve on that by using a solar determination of true North. The way that I do it for my antenna arrays is: 1.0 Use a weather site to determine local sunrise and sunset times for your location on the day that you are going to make the determination. 2.0 Split the difference to determine the time for your local solar noon. 3.0 At the time of your local solar noon, a vertical shaft (determined by plumb line or spirit level) will cast a shadow that points to true North. (Best done on sunny day of course!) 73. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:31 AM To: Tom W8JI Cc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW -BTW OK, while we are on the topic another very big factor to think about is magnetic north vs. true north (I have tried to not bring this up in the past). I don't expect any response to this, but this has always been in the back of my mind and wonder what headings are really being reported (what is the reference, magnetic north or true north that each station is using when he reports a heading). 15 to 20 degrees difference for those of you in the New England states... Same problem out in the Northwest US, but opposite polarity 15 to 20 degrees. Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: My resolution is not as good as some people here, either. But where there's a will, there's often a way. :-) Many of the headings are misleading. Having been through this before several times, much of the data is always grossly overstated.It is common to exaggerate ability to determine direction. It's almost impossible to obtain several degree direction accuracy without either a rotatable loop with GOOD common mode rejection (some popular loop antennas can have a ~20 degree or more skew between what are supposed to be 180 degree apart nulls, because they have poor feed designs) or an interferometer of normal receiving antennas. An 8-circle array in a very clear location with proper hardware design and good element spacing can get within about 20 degrees. Single long Beverages in an array of 8 antennas maybe within 30-35 degrees. Broadside Beverages with wide spacing (~5/8th or wider) within about 20 degrees. A three direction array only within about 60 degrees or so, if in a clear spot and properly constructed. An interferometer with a few wavelengths spacing within a few degrees. A calibrated rotatable small loop without common mode skewing and in the clear, which is actually a pretty rare case, can be within a few degrees. My eight direction 350 ft diameter 8 circle, located out in a field 1500 feet or so from any re-radiators, can only resolve within +-22 degrees with good reliability. When I use it as part of a calibrated interferometer against Beverage arrays spaced ~1000 feet away, I can resolve the directional difference between two signals 50 miles apart in New England. When you draw the lines, be sure to allow for resolution of the antennas, and not the absolute numbers. _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: TEST on 1830
Yep - Original Message - From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com To: Bill Stewart cw...@embarqmail.com Cc: Top Band Reflector topband@contesting.com, Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 12:52:18 PM Subject: RE: Topband: TEST on 1830 Smithfield, NC? -Original Message- From: Bill Stewart [mailto:cw...@embarqmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:46 PM To: Charlie Cunningham Cc: Top Band Reflector; Roger D Johnson Subject: Re: Topband: TEST on 1830 Hi Charlie, I wasn't sure...subj. sorta sounded like he might be testing. I'm still hearing the 80m sigs here near Smithfield. Much weaker now, but readable. No dir. antennas so can't add to the thread..but interesting reading. 73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: Charlie Cunningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com To: Bill Stewart cw...@embarqmail.com, Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com Cc: Top Band Reflector topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 12:23:38 PM Subject: RE: Topband: TEST on 1830 Don't think Roger was testing. I think he was reporting a signal he was hearing from the south of ME. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:16 PM To: Roger D Johnson Cc: Top Band Reflector Subject: Re: Topband: TEST on 1830 Roger, if you are testing you might use the reverse beacon network. Make several CW CQ calls and maybe a 'skimmer' will hear you...neat hi tech way to see if one is getting out.. gives sig. strength rprt too. 73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com To: Top Band Reflector topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 11:16:19 AM Subject: Topband: TEST on 1830 Anyone else hearing this? It's south from Maine. 73, Roger -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Topband: Fw: TEST on 1830
1:24 PM Hearing the weak CW signal in Belfast, ME with severe QSB on my South Delta RX ANT. Unable to hear it on other antennas pointed other general directions. Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html - Original Message - From: Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Topband: TEST on 1830 You're correct, Charlie. Someone sending TEST in slow CW for last couple of days. It's loudest on my south Beverage. 73, Roger On 11/1/2013 11:23 AM, Charlie Cunningham wrote: Don't think Roger was testing. I think he was reporting a signal he was hearing from the south of ME. Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 12:16 PM To: Roger D Johnson Cc: Top Band Reflector Subject: Re: Topband: TEST on 1830 Roger, if you are testing you might use the reverse beacon network. Make several CW CQ calls and maybe a 'skimmer' will hear you...neat hi tech way to see if one is getting out.. gives sig. strength rprt too. 73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: Roger D Johnsonn...@roadrunner.com To: Top Band Reflectortopband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 11:16:19 AM Subject: Topband: TEST on 1830 Anyone else hearing this? It's south from Maine. 73, Roger -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: TEST on 1830
1830 signal came up strong a few times, and despite erratic QSB it has modulation sonding like a AM braodcast radio station. 73 Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverageantennanotes.html - Original Message - From: Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com To: Top Band Reflector topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 8:16 AM Subject: Topband: TEST on 1830 Anyone else hearing this? It's south from Maine. 73, Roger -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Having more time this evening I went to an open field with two different portable DF antenna systems (shielded loop, and terminated flag), and I'm now going to say the signal is 140 degrees from my location just NE of Indianapolis (140 degrees True heading). Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 10:09 AM, nekv...@hushmail.com wrote: Tim, I've been hearing these carriers for several days and confirmed with W8VVG and K4IQJ yesterday that they aren't ghosts in my machine. I sent the info we gathered to the ARRL (K0BOG), who will enlist their Official Observers to track them down. 73 -- Brian K1LI -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:14 -0400 From: Tim Duffy To: Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Oops, I compensated for true north backwards on my last report. Therefore I should have said the signal is 130 degrees from my location just NE of Indianapolis (130 degrees True heading which is very close to the 128 deg number I said this morning). Don On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Don Kirk wd8...@gmail.com wrote: Having more time this evening I went to an open field with two different portable DF antenna systems (shielded loop, and terminated flag), and I'm now going to say the signal is 140 degrees from my location just NE of Indianapolis (140 degrees True heading). Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 10:09 AM, nekv...@hushmail.com wrote: Tim, I've been hearing these carriers for several days and confirmed with W8VVG and K4IQJ yesterday that they aren't ghosts in my machine. I sent the info we gathered to the ARRL (K0BOG), who will enlist their Official Observers to track them down. 73 -- Brian K1LI -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:14 -0400 From: Tim Duffy To: Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
Seems like it is south of me in NNJ as well as its nill on my NE flag and s4 on the SW flag. Sent from my iPad On Nov 1, 2013, at 22:37, Don Kirk wd8...@gmail.com wrote: Oops, I compensated for true north backwards on my last report. Therefore I should have said the signal is 130 degrees from my location just NE of Indianapolis (130 degrees True heading which is very close to the 128 deg number I said this morning). Don On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Don Kirk wd8...@gmail.com wrote: Having more time this evening I went to an open field with two different portable DF antenna systems (shielded loop, and terminated flag), and I'm now going to say the signal is 140 degrees from my location just NE of Indianapolis (140 degrees True heading). Don (wd8dsb) On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 10:09 AM, nekv...@hushmail.com wrote: Tim, I've been hearing these carriers for several days and confirmed with W8VVG and K4IQJ yesterday that they aren't ghosts in my machine. I sent the info we gathered to the ARRL (K0BOG), who will enlist their Official Observers to track them down. 73 -- Brian K1LI -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:45:14 -0400 From: Tim Duffy To: Subject: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I know this is the TopBand reflector - but there has been a carrier on 3501.4 for the past few days - that needs some DF work. It peaks at 150 degrees from K3LR so South South East. It is S9 this evening Any ideas on what it is and where it is coming from? 73, Tim K3LR _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
The signals on 3501.6 and 3503.1 are both SE of me (north Alabama) but I can't locate the direction any closer than that with only a four direction receiving antenna. They are very strong, S9+5 to S9+10, same on either a low dipole or a vertical. They were also that strong even a few hours before sunset. I listened for a while on AM but never heard any modulation. Jerry, K4SAV _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Steady Carrier on 80 CW
From the Virgin Islands they are 59+ on my NW Beverage and weak on my North and West Beverage. I know that is probably not much help but I send the information along for what its worth. Like Merv said the strongest is 3501.6. I am listening to a NA pile up on 3525.5 calling 5J0R and the carrier is equal or better than most of the callers. I would thus assume that these signals are produced by substantial power and good antennas and not some flea powered sea buoy floating around in the Gulf. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 11/2/2013 12:16 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote: Can hear them here in KH6 land, at least the 3500.9 and 3501.6. the 3503.1 is there also but weak, strongest is 3501.6 antenna to broad to pin point any true direction, but its coming from the east to north east for sure. Merv K9FD/KH6 The signals on 3501.6 and 3503.1 are both SE of me (north Alabama) but I can't locate the direction any closer than that with only a four direction receiving antenna. They are very strong, S9+5 to S9+10, same on either a low dipole or a vertical. They were also that strong even a few hours before sunset. I listened for a while on AM but never heard any modulation. Jerry, K4SAV _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
