Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
One last thought on this.. When I came back to the mainland in 2010 the only rig I had was my truck, an ICOM 706 and a Tarheel screwdriver antennanot exactly a super setup. I was really craving a radio fix so for the 2010 phone sweepstakes I drove my truck on dirt road that jutted out into the Gulf of Mexico for a mile or so and backed the truck up so the antenna was hovering over the water and proceeded to call CQSS. During the first two hours of SS I was able to hold a run frequency and knocked off 100 Qs, with 100W and a Tarheel antenna...on 14240. Ah, the wonders of Saltwater. Bill K4XS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Hi Guys I would say vertical IN the salt water. George AA7JV is my mentor about antennas, and his 160m vertical is at the pear, just 2 m from the salt water, the ground plane is a flat sheet SS metal 1 ft. x 20~30 ft. that goes inside the water , dropping 10 from the pear wall and on the see floor for 10 to 20 ft. if I'm not wrong. My antenna is a stand free tower 116ft with a good a good radial system 20 miles from the beach and 40 miles north of George in Miami, I'm in Fort Lauderdale. George can beat my signal or equivalent to my signal in Europe with only 5 w. I need 1KW to get close to his signal with 5w. We did some tests 3 or 4 years ago. Now with RBN we can run some tests again next fall. Regards JC N4IS -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Hardy Landskov Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 10:23 PM To: Yuri Blanarovich; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Yuri, Thanks for your input. Tom asks, where are the other stations? It is a one pony race. Well I am sure if we look at the CQ logs for that year we will see that there were other Carib stations on but we did not hear them out here--that is my point. I can't compare a set of verticals on the beach IF I CAN'T HEAR ANYONE ELSE AT THAT GENERAL QTH AT THAT TIME! Verticals on the beach are a winner...nuff said. 73 N7RT - Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach One pony needs to get into one drag radio car and drive around the ocean front, over the bridges, back over the land and watch the S-meter and listen to the bands. Observant would see 10 - 20 dB difference in signal levels in lousy mobile, especially on low angle propagation. Examples: Driving around Sydney, NS and listening to Disney 1670 AM in NJ - no signals over land, full quieting solid signal while driving on bridge over salt water. While contesting as N2EE from Cape Hatteras, NC on 10m in contest, was told by ZS6EZ to be the first NA he heard, with vertical on the beach. Results of Team Vertical speak for themselves. Some of us do know. The reverse beacons testing can verify or legitimize modeling program's calculated guessing. Yuri, K3BU.us On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 11:02 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: My point is if no one else is on, we really don't how other signals would be. It's like a drag race with just one car, or a pony show with one horse. - Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Tom W8JI ; TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:08 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Tom, I was totallly not expecting any station from that direction, just thought I'd work a few locals with high incident angles before Sunset here. Then I heard the 6Y2 guys and it was amazing. He was the only station--no KV4FZ, NP4A, etc and certainly no EU at our time. Made me a believer in beach verticals. 73 N7RT - Original Message - From: Tom W8JI To: TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach How was his signal compared to someone from a similar heading and distance at the same time who was not on the beach? - Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Guy Olinger K2AV ; Richard Fry Cc: TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Just an observation to all: When Tom, N6BT went to Jaimaca and operated 6Y2J (I think was the call) with verticals on the beach I was blown away. I heard them 2 hours before Sunset here on 160nuff said. The proof is in the pudding. 73 N7RT - Original Message - From: Guy Olinger K2AV To: Richard Fry Cc: TopBand List Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2014 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Just to mention that the prior opinion is controversial and not universally agreed upon. Nor to date has anyone surfaced with actual measurements made at the distances (25 to 50 km) and with span of altitudes (0 to 10 km) to either prove or disprove either side. It remains unproven modelling from NEC at those distances either way. This situation may, alas, persist this way, because the precise subject resolution appears to be without benefit to any commercial interest and therefore without funds to pay for some pretty expensive experimenting involving precision measurements from aircraft. Additionally, there is considerable suspicion that moving from LF to MF in this general subject involves a ground modal change of some sort that would render 50x10 km measurments at 0.5 or 1 MHz unlike those at 2 MHz, rendering commercial measurements at low and possibly high BC of no
Topband: anybody in Eu using JT-9 or JT-65
greetings to pass the time through the summer doldrums, I've been playing with weak signal digi-modes. Near sunrise, am having fair luck to VK, w jt-65... VK3XQ comes through almost every day.. but, at Eu sunrise, my cq's go un-answered, even with kw power. Is the band really THAT bad to Eu, still? from a noisy suburban location, WSJT-x seems to help... 73, W5XZ, Dan _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: anybody in Eu using JT-9 or JT-65
There's the band, and then there's folks using the band. Both have to line up! Important thing is that it is winter in VK :-). So more likely for VK's to be on topband than for EU's. I don't do JT-65 but below I share some of my experience with CW this summer on 160M: Just in the past week I have been able to hear intermittent EU 160M CW activity as I clean up my K9AY loop. In the Summer Stew, I worked one EU, which is kinda the best case I had hoped for. I was surprised when I went back this morning to look at the reversebeacon reports for the summer stew... for a bit I was getting spotted on 160M on several places in Europe. I notice that NO3M who was also very active in Summer Stew was getting spotted too but not at exact same times: grep N3QE 20140622.csv | grep 160m | grep EU DR1A,DL,EU,1823.3,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,10,2014-06-22 01:40:23,21,CW GW8IZR,GW,EU,1823.3,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,6,2014-06-22 01:40:36,21,CW GW8IZR,GW,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,7,2014-06-22 01:45:19,22,CW GW8IZR,GW,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,9,2014-06-22 01:57:52,21,CW DR1A,DL,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,23,2014-06-22 02:02:35,24,CW DL1EMY,DL,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,26,2014-06-22 02:03:20,24,CW DR1A,DL,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,14,2014-06-22 02:12:56,23,CW DL1EMY,DL,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,17,2014-06-22 02:13:10,23,CW GW8IZR,GW,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,6,2014-06-22 02:16:48,24,CW GW8IZR,GW,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,7,2014-06-22 02:23:54,24,CW DR1A,DL,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,4,2014-06-22 02:25:52,24,CW GW8IZR,GW,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,7,2014-06-22 02:34:00,24,CW DL1EMY,DL,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,3,2014-06-22 02:34:17,24,CW DR1A,DL,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,8,2014-06-22 02:36:48,20,CW GW8IZR,GW,EU,1823.4,160m,N3QE,K,NA,CQ,6,2014-06-22 02:44:11,22,CW grep NO3M 20140622.csv | grep 160m | grep EU GW8IZR,GW,EU,1819.4,160m,NO3M,K,NA,CQ,10,2014-06-22 03:33:30,29,CW EI6IZ,EI,EU,1819.4,160m,NO3M,K,NA,CQ,10,2014-06-22 03:33:43,29,CW GW8IZR,GW,EU,1819.4,160m,NO3M,K,NA,CQ,25,2014-06-22 03:45:06,29,CW EI6IZ,EI,EU,1819.4,160m,NO3M,K,NA,CQ,21,2014-06-22 03:48:16,28,CW Tim N3QE On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Dan Edward Dba East edwards dan.n.edwa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: greetings to pass the time through the summer doldrums, I've been playing with weak signal digi-modes. Near sunrise, am having fair luck to VK, w jt-65... VK3XQ comes through almost every day.. but, at Eu sunrise, my cq's go un-answered, even with kw power. Is the band really THAT bad to Eu, still? from a noisy suburban location, WSJT-x seems to help... 73, W5XZ, Dan _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: anybody in Eu using JT-9 or JT-65
Dan Edward Dba East edwards dan.n.edwa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: greetings to pass the time through the summer doldrums, I've been playing with weak signal digi-modes. Near sunrise, am having fair luck to VK, w jt-65... VK3XQ comes through almost every day.. but, at Eu sunrise, my cq's go un-answered, even with kw power. Is the band really THAT bad to Eu, still? from a noisy suburban location, WSJT-x seems to help... I'm a late night person so sunrise is unlikely for me but the band has been very quiet late evening/early morning of late, apart from the S9++ static from summer storms. CQs on JT9/65 have only registered at most two or three eu stations on the RB sites but no replies. 80m has been quite good but few new DX stations to work! VK/ZL coming through grey line, and Namibia/ZS most evenings. 73, W5XZ, Dan _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband -- Brian D G3VGZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: anybody in Eu using JT-9 or JT-65
Hello brethren, I´m ready to be crucified yet I couldn´t resist asking a question: What's the value of JT modes qso for a dxer? IMHO Digimodes undermine the value of low band dxing. I don't arfue over reliability of the modes and their help in extension of hamradio capabilities in general yet JT and such do not require much from the operator. With all due respect, Alex _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
By the way, my intention is not to make anyone feel bad, but to just to remind people that an impression or feeling is not confirmation. Impressions really get us off track, and lead to unnecessary debates and arguments. - Original Message - From: Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Just to set the record straight, I have no doubt saltwater helps propagation at most angles. I probably did not make my point very well. My point is, with no comparison, an impression or feeling is not convincing data. It doesn't mean a thing. I think this is a pretty simple concept. Not having proper comparative data is what allows all sorts of misplaced voodoo nonsense, like 360 radials is worth 6 dB. There is a huge difference between the validity of an A-B comparison and running away with a feeling. - Original Message - From: Carl k...@jeremy.mv.com To: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net; topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 9:51 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach There have been reports of verticals and salt water almost as long as there has been radio. It helps horizontal antennas also. Ive operated for enough years aboard USN ships to know it is often a band opener and have to laugh at a couple of petty comments. The difference between operating shipboard and MARS/ham club stations was often a couple of hours and even with big yagis there was no comparison. Go back to the ship tied up at the pier or at anchor and the band was wide open again and again, and again. After awhile you learn to ignore the nattering nabobs of negativism. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach One pony needs to get into one drag radio car and drive around the ocean front, over the bridges, back over the land and watch the S-meter and listen to the bands. Observant would see 10 - 20 dB difference in signal levels in lousy mobile, especially on low angle propagation. Examples: Driving around Sydney, NS and listening to Disney 1670 AM in NJ - no signals over land, full quieting solid signal while driving on bridge over salt water. While contesting as N2EE from Cape Hatteras, NC on 10m in contest, was told by ZS6EZ to be the first NA he heard, with vertical on the beach. Results of Team Vertical speak for themselves. Some of us do know. The reverse beacons testing can verify or legitimize modeling program's calculated guessing. Yuri, K3BU.us On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 11:02 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: My point is if no one else is on, we really don't how other signals would be. It's like a drag race with just one car, or a pony show with one horse. - Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Tom W8JI ; TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:08 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Tom, I was totallly not expecting any station from that direction, just thought I'd work a few locals with high incident angles before Sunset here. Then I heard the 6Y2 guys and it was amazing. He was the only station--no KV4FZ, NP4A, etc and certainly no EU at our time. Made me a believer in beach verticals. 73 N7RT - Original Message - From: Tom W8JI To: TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach How was his signal compared to someone from a similar heading and distance at the same time who was not on the beach? - Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Guy Olinger K2AV ; Richard Fry Cc: TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Just an observation to all: When Tom, N6BT went to Jaimaca and operated 6Y2J (I think was the call) with verticals on the beach I was blown away. I heard them 2 hours before Sunset here on 160nuff said. The proof is in the pudding. 73 N7RT - Original Message - From: Guy Olinger K2AV To: Richard Fry Cc: TopBand List Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2014 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Just to mention that the prior opinion is controversial and not universally agreed upon. Nor to date has anyone surfaced with actual measurements made at the distances (25 to 50 km) and with span of altitudes (0 to 10 km) to either prove or disprove either side. It remains unproven modelling from NEC at those distances either way. This situation may, alas, persist this way, because the precise subject resolution appears to be without benefit to any commercial interest and therefore without funds to pay for some pretty expensive experimenting involving
Re: Topband: anybody in Eu using JT-9 or JT-65
On 8/12/2014 8:00 AM, ALEXEY OGORODOV wrote: What's the value of JT modes qso for a dxer? There's far more to ham radio than making QSOs on CW (which I have been doing for 59 years). There's also station and antenna building, learning new techniques, interfacing computers to rigs, and so on. From my QTH 5 miles from the Pacific, 70 miles S of San Francisco, I haven't heard EU on 160 for three seasons, and I've never heard any stations from eastern Europe in the 8 years I've lived here. If any of K1JT's WSJT modes let me do that, I'll use them. They are NOT automatic modes, they do require operator skill and knowledge of propagation, and they do require transmitters, receivers, and antennas. Although W5XZ did not say so in his post, he often is on the band calling CQ on CW. I know because I hear him. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Oh, here comes the guru again. :-) Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS of comparing normal in land ground effect vs. salt water beach or marshes. We are commenting on the benefit of immediate proximity of salt water to antenna performance, especially on low angles. K3BU and others found out that it is not feeling, but S-meter readings in order of 10 - 20 dB (RX and TX!) in favor of salty beach. It is like driving inside into the amplifier There is really no debate or argument. Anyone can verify that by driving mobile around the ocean front. Team vertical N2KW put the numbers on the effect - world high in CQ WW with bunch of fishing rods on the beach from 6Y5. Anyone interested in finding about the effect or using it can do it and testify themselves. I did it from the Cape Hatteras and was amazed. Operating as N2EE/4 from Cape Hatteras, NC in CQ WW SSB 2000 it is still all time US 10m LP record. For those not knowing about the effect, it is an eye opener, for those knowing or experiencing it, there is no argument. Those who do not believe it, can get into their mobile and drive around watching the S-meter and putting the numbers with two decimal places to it. Those going on expeditions to places with oceanfront can multiply their results by placing the antennas close to the salt water as others commented. The best way to take advantage of the salty effect is to use phased or parasitic verticals, or vertically polarized beams (Yagi or Quad) about half wave up. No need for high towers, waste of using horizontal beams. Yuri, K3BU.us www.MVmanor.com By the way, my intention is not to make anyone feel bad, but to just to remind people that an impression or feeling is not confirmation. Impressions really get us off track, and lead to unnecessary debates and arguments. - Original Message - From: Tom W8JI To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Just to set the record straight, I have no doubt saltwater helps propagation at most angles. I probably did not make my point very well. My point is, with no comparison, an impression or feeling is not convincing data. It doesn't mean a thing. I think this is a pretty simple concept. Not having proper comparative data is what allows all sorts of misplaced voodoo nonsense, like 360 radials is worth 6 dB. There is a huge difference between the validity of an A-B comparison and running away with a feeling. - Original Message - From: Carl To: Yuri Blanarovich ; Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 9:51 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach There have been reports of verticals and salt water almost as long as there has been radio. It helps horizontal antennas also. Ive operated for enough years aboard USN ships to know it is often a band opener and have to laugh at a couple of petty comments. The difference between operating shipboard and MARS/ham club stations was often a couple of hours and even with big yagis there was no comparison. Go back to the ship tied up at the pier or at anchor and the band was wide open again and again, and again. After awhile you learn to ignore the nattering nabobs of negativism. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach One pony needs to get into one drag radio car and drive around the ocean front, over the bridges, back over the land and watch the S-meter and listen to the bands. Observant would see 10 - 20 dB difference in signal levels in lousy mobile, especially on low angle propagation. Examples: Driving around Sydney, NS and listening to Disney 1670 AM in NJ - no signals over land, full quieting solid signal while driving on bridge over salt water. While contesting as N2EE from Cape Hatteras, NC on 10m in contest, was told by ZS6EZ to be the first NA he heard, with vertical on the beach. Results of Team Vertical speak for themselves. Some of us do know. The reverse beacons testing can verify or legitimize modeling program's calculated guessing. Yuri, K3BU.us On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 11:02 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: My point is if no one else is on, we really don't how other signals would be. It's like a drag race with just one car, or a pony show with one horse. - Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Tom W8JI ; TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:08 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Tom, I was totallly not expecting any station from that direction, just thought I'd work a few locals with high incident angles before Sunset here. Then I heard the 6Y2 guys and it was amazing. He was the only station--no KV4FZ, NP4A, etc and certainly no EU at our time. Made me a believer in beach verticals. 73 N7RT - Original
Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Wow, nice S-meter... -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Yuri Blanarovich Oh, here comes the guru again. :-) Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS of comparing normal in land ground effect vs. salt water beach or marshes. We are commenting on the benefit of immediate proximity of salt water to antenna performance, especially on low angles. K3BU and others found out that it is not feeling, but S-meter readings in order of 10 - 20 dB (RX and TX!) in favor of salty beach. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
- Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Oh, here comes the guru again. :-) Is that immature stuff really necessary? Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS of comparing normal in land ground effect vs. salt water beach or marshes. We are commenting on the benefit of immediate proximity of salt water to antenna performance, especially on low angles. K3BU and others found out that it is not feeling, but S-meter readings in order of 10 - 20 dB (RX and TX!) in favor of salty beach. It is like driving inside into the amplifier Perhaps you can explain why VOA and others willingly gave up that 10-20 dB, and how K3LR and W3LPL do so well inland, when they pay a 10-20 dB penalty for communications? One would think if there was a 10-20 db penalty, it would show on skimmers and that W2GD would be unbeatable being on the water. I'm sure I'm missing something. What is it I am missing? Thanks, Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 08:14 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: - Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Oh, here comes the guru again. :-) Is that immature stuff really necessary? Subject of effect of ground, salt water front was discussed, some experiences were mentioned, but you judge it unnecessary and feelings. We have been there before: first you don't believe it, deny it, then when convinced that you were wrong, you go quiet for a while, and then you discover the stuff and post article on your web site, like it was your invention all along. I have been biting my pen, but sometimes stuff just slips out. Looks like nothing new. Maybe there is a help by bringing it up. So, here we go again: Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS of comparing normal in land ground effect vs. salt water beach or marshes. We are commenting on the benefit of immediate proximity of salt water to antenna performance, especially on low angles. K3BU and others found out that it is not feeling, but S-meter readings in order of 10 - 20 dB (RX and TX!) in favor of salty beach. It is like driving inside into the amplifier Perhaps you can explain why VOA and others willingly gave up that 10-20 dB, and how K3LR and W3LPL do so well inland, when they pay a 10-20 dB penalty for communications? Ask VOA engineers how they chose their locations. I see why WOO - RCA and ATT engineers chose their site in Ocean Gate, NJ on some 240 acres of salty marshes, and how they dominated overseas comms. K3LR and W3LPL knowingly chose inland sites, because they don't need extra dBs? Comparing results to which beach station? Maybe operators have something to do with it? Using scores between comparable stations gives some indication. But the real test is the observation of signals in said locations. Simple test of driving around in the mobile demonstrates the effect. WRTC 2014 disqualified few sites because they were too good, they did the tests and those too close for salty comfort were not used in order to keep things more equal (for the inland locations that were available). One would think if there was a 10-20 db penalty, it would show on skimmers and that W2GD would be unbeatable being on the water. I'm sure I'm missing something. What is it I am missing? It is not penalty, it is advantage. It all depends how one takes advantage of the effect and how good operator(s) are. You are missing getting into the car, drive to Cape Hatteras and observe S-meter while driving close to, or away from the salt water or over the bridges. You are also overlooking experiences of experienced contesters commenting on the effect and calling it unnecessary debate and feelings. It is not easy to find beachfront property suitable for station, but it is rewarding to get 10 - 20 dB on RX and TX for free if one can. I got convinced and have seen the results and still have few records, even if anecdotal from XJ3ZZ/1 St. Paul, from VE1ZZ, N2EE/4, TF4X, WOO site, etc. Others have described their enhancements too, so it is not fairy tale. Hope it helps. Yuri, K3BU.us Thanks, Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
Yuri, I don't think K3LR, W3LPL could afford that kind of property to begin with plus they have to work and have families and all of that. It is nice to do that kind of thing on DXPD's but I would not want to live there. My final 2 centsI vote we move on. 73 N7RT - Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 6:35 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 08:14 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: - Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Oh, here comes the guru again. :-) Is that immature stuff really necessary? Subject of effect of ground, salt water front was discussed, some experiences were mentioned, but you judge it unnecessary and feelings. We have been there before: first you don't believe it, deny it, then when convinced that you were wrong, you go quiet for a while, and then you discover the stuff and post article on your web site, like it was your invention all along. I have been biting my pen, but sometimes stuff just slips out. Looks like nothing new. Maybe there is a help by bringing it up. So, here we go again: Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS of comparing normal in land ground effect vs. salt water beach or marshes. We are commenting on the benefit of immediate proximity of salt water to antenna performance, especially on low angles. K3BU and others found out that it is not feeling, but S-meter readings in order of 10 - 20 dB (RX and TX!) in favor of salty beach. It is like driving inside into the amplifier Perhaps you can explain why VOA and others willingly gave up that 10-20 dB, and how K3LR and W3LPL do so well inland, when they pay a 10-20 dB penalty for communications? Ask VOA engineers how they chose their locations. I see why WOO - RCA and ATT engineers chose their site in Ocean Gate, NJ on some 240 acres of salty marshes, and how they dominated overseas comms. K3LR and W3LPL knowingly chose inland sites, because they don't need extra dBs? Comparing results to which beach station? Maybe operators have something to do with it? Using scores between comparable stations gives some indication. But the real test is the observation of signals in said locations. Simple test of driving around in the mobile demonstrates the effect. WRTC 2014 disqualified few sites because they were too good, they did the tests and those too close for salty comfort were not used in order to keep things more equal (for the inland locations that were available). One would think if there was a 10-20 db penalty, it would show on skimmers and that W2GD would be unbeatable being on the water. I'm sure I'm missing something. What is it I am missing? It is not penalty, it is advantage. It all depends how one takes advantage of the effect and how good operator(s) are. You are missing getting into the car, drive to Cape Hatteras and observe S-meter while driving close to, or away from the salt water or over the bridges. You are also overlooking experiences of experienced contesters commenting on the effect and calling it unnecessary debate and feelings. It is not easy to find beachfront property suitable for station, but it is rewarding to get 10 - 20 dB on RX and TX for free if one can. I got convinced and have seen the results and still have few records, even if anecdotal from XJ3ZZ/1 St. Paul, from VE1ZZ, N2EE/4, TF4X, WOO site, etc. Others have described their enhancements too, so it is not fairy tale. Hope it helps. Yuri, K3BU.us Thanks, Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach
this brings back a lot of memories..i arrived on rarotonga a week after a French Dxpidition did, who was set up in the K2KW motel room with vertical antennas on the beach just as you would imagine. the motel management said she was sorry, and set me up in a cottage (from the same motel) on the other side of the island for me and my venerable HW-16, now connected to a 400 foot long wire to a 100(?) foot high palm tree. i was across a road to the beach (75 feet from the shore?), but could on 160m easily hear the USA 579 two hours before sunset mike ZK1DRA (then) yes, my HW-16 works on 160-20m On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 18:55:46 -0700 Hardy Landskov n...@cox.net writes: Yuri, I don't think K3LR, W3LPL could afford that kind of property to begin with plus they have to work and have families and all of that. It is nice to do that kind of thing on DXPD's but I would not want to live there. My final 2 centsI vote we move on. 73 N7RT - Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 6:35 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 08:14 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: - Original Message - From: Yuri Blanarovich To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach Oh, here comes the guru again. :-) Is that immature stuff really necessary? Subject of effect of ground, salt water front was discussed, some experiences were mentioned, but you judge it unnecessary and feelings. We have been there before: first you don't believe it, deny it, then when convinced that you were wrong, you go quiet for a while, and then you discover the stuff and post article on your web site, like it was your invention all along. I have been biting my pen, but sometimes stuff just slips out. Looks like nothing new. Maybe there is a help by bringing it up. So, here we go again: Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS of comparing normal in land ground effect vs. salt water beach or marshes. We are commenting on the benefit of immediate proximity of salt water to antenna performance, especially on low angles. K3BU and others found out that it is not feeling, but S-meter readings in order of 10 - 20 dB (RX and TX!) in favor of salty beach. It is like driving inside into the amplifier Perhaps you can explain why VOA and others willingly gave up that 10-20 dB, and how K3LR and W3LPL do so well inland, when they pay a 10-20 dB penalty for communications? Ask VOA engineers how they chose their locations. I see why WOO - RCA and ATT engineers chose their site in Ocean Gate, NJ on some 240 acres of salty marshes, and how they dominated overseas comms. K3LR and W3LPL knowingly chose inland sites, because they don't need extra dBs? Comparing results to which beach station? Maybe operators have something to do with it? Using scores between comparable stations gives some indication. But the real test is the observation of signals in said locations. Simple test of driving around in the mobile demonstrates the effect. WRTC 2014 disqualified few sites because they were too good, they did the tests and those too close for salty comfort were not used in order to keep things more equal (for the inland locations that were available). One would think if there was a 10-20 db penalty, it would show on skimmers and that W2GD would be unbeatable being on the water. I'm sure I'm missing something. What is it I am missing? It is not penalty, it is advantage. It all depends how one takes advantage of the effect and how good operator(s) are. You are missing getting into the car, drive to Cape Hatteras and observe S-meter while driving close to, or away from the salt water or over the bridges. You are also overlooking experiences of experienced contesters commenting on the effect and calling it unnecessary debate and feelings. It is not easy to find beachfront property suitable for station, but it is rewarding to get 10 - 20 dB on RX and TX for free if one can. I got convinced and have seen the results and still have few records, even if anecdotal from XJ3ZZ/1 St. Paul, from VE1ZZ, N2EE/4, TF4X, WOO site, etc. Others have described their enhancements too, so it is not fairy tale. Hope it helps. Yuri, K3BU.us Thanks, Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 4 Fish to Never Eat Click to Learn 4 Fish to
