Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff
> The real danger is in doing things seriously wrong, like putting the loop > over something with inadequate radius. I've seen some pretty poor > installations. Some installers slip the loop over the tower leg, or worse > yet, over the leg plus a brace rod end. The rod puts a real sharp bump > against the grip. > > > > IMHO you hit the nail on the HEAD.. with either material used. Did a > job on Rohn 45 with torque arm assemblies the installer/Ham did not use any thimbles in the torque arm eyelets or on the top triangular flat plate IT's unnerving when you adjust your lanyard over a set of torque arms and see only HALF of the guy grip remaining and rusted broken strands staring you in the face. @ 45'and the top set was worse from axial twisting . but we had fixed the lower set B-4 I climbed up there ... Wayne W3EA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff
I would expect the regular grip to not fail, as you tested, because it is rated at 100% of 1/4 inch EHS breaking strength. Normally companies will not rate it that way without a huge safety margin. The somewhat longer "big grip" styles, according to PLP, were only for added protection in cases where the guy lines had twisting or unwrapping issues. It was never even available in 1/4 inch until tower companies started selling it. The real danger is in doing things seriously wrong, like putting the loop over something with inadequate radius. I've seen some pretty poor installations. Some installers slip the loop over the tower leg, or worse yet, over the leg plus a brace rod end. The rod puts a real sharp bump against the grip. - Original Message - From: Wayne Kline To: Carl ; JI Charles ; low bad reflector Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Just my .02 Some call them Tomatoes some call them Tomottos but even those fruits come in different size and texture . When I built my station @ this QTH 4 guyed towers with broken up guys 502 insulators and a PRE Formed guy Fasteners . A fellow FRC member had a source for 5000' rolls of 1/4 Strand and 502 insulators and these GUY grips that are used in the Cable industry... from pole to pole to support the cable. These grips had the 4 twisted wire with yellow tag I had access to the Quality Control Lab @ the Mack Trucks test lab, We first tested Rohn 1/4 EHS. to facilitate the pull I installed 3 Press furls on each end all test were repeated 2X The EHS began to stretch twist and fracture @ 9K and fail @ 10.2K lb pull Rohn PLP BIG GRIP (5) strand , with a length of 1/4 EHS and the same furl at the end never failed with the EHS stretching and failing at 11 + K lb pull now the Shorter 4 strand twist yellow tagged with the same length EHS ( 16" exposed if my memory serves me ) This to never Failed and the 1/4 EHS both times failing . We painted layout dye on the 1/4 ehs/grip ends looking for pull out NONE was found on either DEAD END the guy grip loop end was around a solid 1 .250 rod to mimic a 502 or Rohn tower leg or HD thimble. I tried Thimbles but the press destroyed them in the clamp down securing phase . Conclusion 4 towers 180 plus guy grips All 4 strand DEAD End type and 25 years and all A - OK... I even caught a lower level guy on my ROPS bolt on my BIG tractor pulling so hard till I got to stop it Ripped the joint open and bent it 70 degree on ROHN 25 AND DID NOT FAIL. It's length was 73' with two 502's attached directly to the tower leg and three way equalizer plate. MY .02 > From: k...@jeremy.mv.com > To: w...@w8ji.com; topband@contesting.com > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 10:46:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > > Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower > > apes". > > http://www.preformed.com/ > > ** Which has never been denied by anyone in this discussion. OTOH linemen > and other strand installers use it as a general description thus my tower > ape terminology. > > > > > > > Dead end is the termination style of grip. > > http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 > > > > ** Also previously discussed > > > > > The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy > > line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are > > normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should > > check the catalog specs because some are less). > > ** As are the Big Grips rated at strand strength. > > > > > > The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer > > grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. > > > > PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably > > be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who > > sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) > > > ** PLP marketing is aimed at commercial and industrial applications and not > hobbiests. Their idea of a radio tower starts where most ham versions let > off. > > > > > Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy > > strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice > > guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! > > > ** Ive even seen some with RatShak guy wire which is maybe 1/8. Ive never > used an inline splice either. > > > It's common to see someone > > worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do mu
Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff
Just my .02 Some call them Tomatoes some call them Tomottos but even those fruits come in different size and texture . When I built my station @ this QTH 4 guyed towers with broken up guys 502 insulators and a PRE Formed guy Fasteners . A fellow FRC member had a source for 5000' rolls of 1/4 Strand and 502 insulators and these GUY grips that are used in the Cable industry... from pole to pole to support the cable. These grips had the 4 twisted wire with yellow tag I had access to the Quality Control Lab @ the Mack Trucks test lab, We first tested Rohn 1/4 EHS. to facilitate the pull I installed 3 Press furls on each end all test were repeated 2X The EHS began to stretch twist and fracture @ 9K and fail @ 10.2K lb pull Rohn PLP BIG GRIP (5) strand , with a length of 1/4 EHS and the same furl at the end never failed with the EHS stretching and failing at 11 + K lb pull now the Shorter 4 strand twist yellow tagged with the same length EHS ( 16" exposed if my memory serves me ) This to never Failed and the 1/4 EHS both times failing . We painted layout dye on the 1/4 ehs/grip ends looking for pull out NONE was found on either DEAD END the guy grip loop end was around a solid 1 .250 rod to mimic a 502 or Rohn tower leg or HD thimble. I tried Thimbles but the press destroyed them in the clamp down securing phase . Conclusion 4 towers 180 plus guy grips All 4 strand DEAD End type and 25 years and all A - OK... I even caught a lower level guy on my ROPS bolt on my BIG tractor pulling so hard till I got to stop it Ripped the joint open and bent it 70 degree on ROHN 25 AND DID NOT FAIL. It's length was 73' with two 502's attached directly to the tower leg and three way equalizer plate. MY .02 > From: k...@jeremy.mv.com > To: w...@w8ji.com; topband@contesting.com > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 10:46:37 -0400 > Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff > > > Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower > > apes". > > http://www.preformed.com/ > > ** Which has never been denied by anyone in this discussion. OTOH linemen > and other strand installers use it as a general description thus my tower > ape terminology. > > > > > > > Dead end is the termination style of grip. > > http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 > > > > ** Also previously discussed > > > > > The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy > > line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are > > normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should > > check the catalog specs because some are less). > > ** As are the Big Grips rated at strand strength. > > > > > > The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer > > grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. > > > > PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably > > be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who > > sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) > > > ** PLP marketing is aimed at commercial and industrial applications and not > hobbiests. Their idea of a radio tower starts where most ham versions let > off. > > > > > Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy > > strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice > > guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! > > > ** Ive even seen some with RatShak guy wire which is maybe 1/8. Ive never > used an inline splice either. > > > It's common to see someone > > worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do much for strength), > > > and then not worry about radius inside the loop (which just kills the > > strength). > > > ** Good points > > Carl > KM1H > > > > > > > > _ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > > > - > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8155 - Release Date: 09/04/14 > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff
Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower apes". http://www.preformed.com/ ** Which has never been denied by anyone in this discussion. OTOH linemen and other strand installers use it as a general description thus my tower ape terminology. Dead end is the termination style of grip. http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 ** Also previously discussed The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should check the catalog specs because some are less). ** As are the Big Grips rated at strand strength. The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) ** PLP marketing is aimed at commercial and industrial applications and not hobbiests. Their idea of a radio tower starts where most ham versions let off. Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! ** Ive even seen some with RatShak guy wire which is maybe 1/8. Ive never used an inline splice either. It's common to see someone worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do much for strength), > and then not worry about radius inside the loop (which just kills the strength). ** Good points Carl KM1H _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8155 - Release Date: 09/04/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff - please be safe
Sounds like a lot of Nervous Nellie knee knocking to me Tim. Caution within reason is a good thing, understanding that all Rohn tower specs plus PLP and other hardware providers are extremely conservative has to be considered also. Going overboard with disaster predictions does nobody any good. First of all Im only going to 90' of 25G where 3/16 is the Rohn spec and Im going to 1/4". The tower will be lightly loaded, by my standards, and even grips that are 2" shorter will have far more holding power than the tower calls for. All my towers use Rohn guy brackets with torque arms, none of the Hammy Hambone method of wrapping the guy around a tower leg. The difference between properly tensioned 3/16 and 1/4" guys on 25 and 45G is immediately felt as the tower is much more stable feeling with the latter; especially when muscling around heavy stuff at the top and/or with 2 people. My 180' 45G has been up since 1990 and the Rohn spec is still for 3/16. Im using 1/4 with the guy anchors at the full Rohn spec distance. For added safety I used the proper size guy clamp near the end of each grip as recommended by a REAL tower professional who I used to assist on 300-600' work. The tower also sits on a pier pin so the guys do all the work. As you and many others know Im on top of the highest hill in 20+ miles and subject to intense hill effect updraft winds plus numerous nor'easters, micobursts, high speed T storms, Cat 1-2 hurricanes plus general unamed coastal storms with hurricane class gusts. The ocean is 20-30 miles from here over a wide azimuth and it is all downhill from here. Im also known for exceeding Rohn loading specs as far back as the 60's. For several years here the 180' had a 4/4 KLM 4el 40 plus 4/4/4/4 PV-4's (40' booms) on 20. The only damage was keeping the top KLM from breaking element to boom insulators. The pier pin and oversized 1/4 guys did exactly what I intended. The 100' 25G was also overloaded with 10 and 15M stacks plus 2M and 222MHz pairs of long booms. Those two towers also have 22' chrome moly masts. The above is Real World Testimonial. Carl KM1H Be very careful with "real world" testimonials - giving advice to use products for the wrong application is really dangerous. We are talking about serious tower projects that can turn fatal if you use the wrong equipment. I don't care how high the tower is. PLEASE USE THE RIGHT STUFF! If anyone uses the wrong tower hardware and does not have problems or does not get killed, I call that "luck". Do you want to bet your life on luck? Use the EXACT product that is specifically designed for tower applications. Do not take short cuts! Pay attention to the tower, guy wire and antenna manufactures instructions. Tower guy wires are special. Talk to a professional mechanical engineer with tower engineering experience, he will tell you. There is a reason there are two different PLP products for two very different applications. Every year several Hams are killed in tower accidents because they took short cuts, bad chances or tried to save money - or worst of all, they got bad advice. What is your life or one of your friend's lives worth? Have you ever gone to a funeral of a tower climber? I have - and it changed my life forever. PLEASE BE SAFE 73, Tim K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 10:44 PM To: donov...@starpower.net Cc: Carl; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff Have been for the last 7 years...no issues at all. The tower products are just an adaptation of products used in the power distribution business for years. I work for an electric utility, one of the largest in the US. I've seen both products and see no difference in their design. The preformed line products grips are used to guy transmission towers on a routine basis. We also use them to support fiber optic cables on distribution and transmission structures. I chose the PLP grips for my 65' tower...they were a good bit cheaper. I also used screw down anchors for my guy points...the ones used in the electrical distribution business. Bigger plates, galvanized instead of painted and heavier dutyfor less money. But it is a personal choice Cecil K5DL Sent from my iPad On Sep 4, 2014, at 3:13 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Carl, Preformed Line Products says: ""Guy-Grip Dead-ends are intended for use on single wood poles associated with distribution construction." If you examine the Rohn tower hardware catalog, they list only Big Grips, never a mention of using wood pole Guy Grips on any of their towers For a few dollars more you can use the BG-2144 Big Grip product recommended by the manufacturer for use on towers. Use Guy Grips for wood poles at your own risk... 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Carl" To: donov...@starpower.net, "Bill Wichers" Cc: topba
Re: Topband: WTB: Guy wire stuff
Preform comes from the name of a major grip manufacturer, not from "tower apes". http://www.preformed.com/ Dead end is the termination style of grip. http://www.preformed.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=15&Itemid=145 The normal "Guy Grip dead end" is typically used on any shorter length guy line that does not have rotational or twisting forces, and they are normally are rated at 100% of stand breaking strength (but you should check the catalog specs because some are less). The "Big Grip dead end" is the Prefomed Line Products name for the longer grips, and are better for longer guy runs that might twist. PLP manufactures custom grips that are not cataloged. PLP would probably be a better place for application advice than Ham tower parts vendors (who sell some pretty sketchy stuff at times) or Ham reflectors. :) Every tower failure I have seen has come from incorrectly installed guy strand, saddle clamps, or anchors. I've seen towers where people splice guy lines with dead ends looped through dead ends! It's common to see someone worry enough to buy extra long grips (which doesn't do much for strength), and then not worry about radius inside the loop (which just kills the strength). _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
