Re: Topband: Silver solder
The silver solder I have here does have a high silver content, yes. :-) It also contains cadmium, which shouldn't be used indoors because the fumes are toxic. It's 1/16" diameter round wire. When it's gone, I'll probably replace it with a cad-free alloy. I mostly heat the work (that is, the junction of ground radials, wire, and ground rod), and let that melt the solder. Applying a flame to the solder itself is an exercise in frustration. You're not doing that, are you? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Paul Christensen wrote: > > “If you had trouble with an oxyacetylene torch, then I'll bet you > used "silver-bearing" (tin-copper-silver) solder, which melts at well under > 700 degrees. > > These are mid-level silver sticks with 15% silver + copper/phosphor and > have a working temperature of 1200-1400 degs. F – but not the 2-5% silver > bearing variety with a lower melting point. You are probably using a much > higher silver content if working with OxyAcet. > > Using OxyAcet on the 15% bars can quickly result in boiling and > vaporizing of the solder with damage done to the copper, especially to a > copper strap. With 15% bars, Acetylene/air works fine even with a high > amount of heat-sinking. I have not yet tried MAPP gas. > > Paul, W9AC > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Silver solder
My whole buried radial system uses this type of silver solder to connect the ground radials which are 1/2 in. copper tubing between ground rods. Each ground rod radial is also soldered to the Rohn tower base plate. It has been in over 20 years and no noticeable deterioration. I agree with the comment about using flux not incorporated into the silver solder. Jim - KR9U ___ With hard silver solder --the kind that melts at a red heat-- an oxyacetylene torch with a #4 or smaller tip works just fine. Just keep the flame size down, and/or turn down the oxygen a little for a carburizing flame*. This is similar to brazing, but brazing is much hotter and uses a silver-free brass alloy as a filler material. Use that opaque white borax-type silver solder flux, which is applied to the silver solder by heating the solder a little bit below its melting point, and then dipping the hot solder into the flux to coat it. Or, you can buy silver solder already coated; but IMO, it's not as good. I use MAPP gas and oxygen to silver solder nowadays, because it's all I have here right now. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Silver solder
> “If you had trouble with an oxyacetylene torch, then I'll bet you used > "silver-bearing" (tin-copper-silver) solder, which melts at well under 700 > degrees. These are mid-level silver sticks with 15% silver + copper/phosphor and have a working temperature of 1200-1400 degs. F – but not the 2-5% silver bearing variety with a lower melting point. You are probably using a much higher silver content if working with OxyAcet. Using OxyAcet on the 15% bars can quickly result in boiling and vaporizing of the solder with damage done to the copper, especially to a copper strap. With 15% bars, Acetylene/air works fine even with a high amount of heat-sinking. I have not yet tried MAPP gas. Paul, W9AC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Silver solder
Hi Jorge The most common problem of Passive Inter Modulation (PIM) that can flood your radio with BC harmonica is Aluminum Oxide. The dielectric on that white powder between aluminum and most every others metal became a diode with moisture and a capacitor when dr. It can protected with all kind of process, however tall of them last no longer than one year. With RF current on 160m the joint with rectify and generating all kind of noise. Electro voltage due different materials is an irreversible process. If you want to have your ground plane for several years, do yourself a favor and use brass split bolt and cooper, you can find split bold that can be buried. High temperature also change the tempera of cooper and with all the different metals you are set up to failure, it just a matter of time to happen. Regards JC N4IS -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Diez - CX6VM Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2015 9:28 AM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Silver solder Thanks all for the help Will be looking for a lead free solder to solder terminals to the radial wires According to use 3.5 mm aluminum wire, what do you think? Is a good option or is better to use copper stranded cable? 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Gary Smith Enviado el: miércoles, 31 de diciembre de 2014 02:49 a.m. Para: Topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: Silver solder I 2nd Merv's experience. My on the ground radials, on an oceanside salt marsh, have held up as new for 4 years and I used the lead free plumbing solder. The only issue is that solder requires a bit more heat then the leaded solder. That's all I use outdoors any more. 734 & HNY, Gary KA1J > Here in salt air regular solder turns to white powder pretty fast, I > have been also using lead free solder, I got a roll of plumbers > solder and a jar of resin flux. works very well on #10 radials and > 4 inch wide copper strap etc. Have left several joints exposed > and there is no corrosion after 4 years. > Works great so far. > 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 > > > 2% is about what the lead-free electronic solders are (they are a tin/silver/copper alloy and are mostly tin). Don't bother with the 30%. My mechanical contractor uses this stuff to fix things he can't reach well enough to braze. It's not generally used for anything normal. > > > > Coincidentally I was just out soldering more radials last night. I > > use 18 gauge solid copper radial wire and a 1/2" copper pipe ring to tie them together. My original 29 radials were all soldered with lead-free electronic solder and they are all fine after 2-3 years. I didn't do anything to try to protect the soldered connections -- everything is fully exposed and lying on the ground. > > > > I added 31 more radials. I soldered some the same way, but I'm > > trying regular lead-free plumbing solder on the others. I am finding the plumbing flux to work better than the rosin-core solder (it wets the joints more evenly). I'm not sure what the exact alloy is for the plumbing solder. > > > > If you use the solder bars remember that you'll need separate flux > > and brushes to apply it. I like the water soluble flux -- it cleans up way easier. > > > > -Bill KB8WYP > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On Dec 30, 2014, at 7:28 PM, Jorge Diez CX6VM > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hello > >> > >> I read about using silver to solder wire radials to terminals > >> > >> This week I decided to ask sellers about silver solder and they > >> offered me a 2% and 30% silver bars > >> > >> What we need for our use? Will be ok to use 2%? The difference in > >> price is extremely high! > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Jorge > >> CX6VM/CW5W > >> > >> Enviado desde mi iPhone > >> _ > >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protección de avast! Antivirus está activa. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Silver solder
Paul, If you had trouble with an oxyacetylene torch, then I'll bet you used "silver-bearing" (tin-copper-silver) solder, which melts at well under 700 degrees. (In that kind of solder, the small amount of silver is added mainly to lower the melting point a little). That's commonly referred to as "lead-free solder". I use it all the time here. That is NOT what is commonly called "silver solder" in the trades. With hard silver solder --the kind that melts at a red heat-- an oxyacetylene torch with a #4 or smaller tip works just fine. Just keep the flame size down, and/or turn down the oxygen a little for a carburizing flame*. * A carburizing flame has a third cone that's not as bright as the flame right next to the tip, but is brighter than the rest of the flame. And don't touch the bright blue part of the flame (>6000 degrees F) to the work, and especially to the solder! That portion of the flame can melt and weld steel, it's so hot. Use that opaque white borax-type silver solder flux, which is applied to the silver solder by heating the solder a little bit below its melting point, and then dipping the hot solder into the flux to coat it. Or, you can buy silver solder already coated; but IMO, it's not as good. This is similar to brazing, but brazing is much hotter and uses a silver-free brass alloy as a filler material. I use MAPP gas and oxygen to silver solder nowadays, because it's all I have here right now. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Paul Christensen wrote: > "The only issue is that solder requires a bit more heat then the leaded >> solder." > > > I once tried oxyacetylene (a pure oxygen + acetylene mixture) and had a > disastrous result. The torch temperature rises rapidly with even a small > volume of mixed oxygen. Good for some welding applications, but not > silver-soldering. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Silver solder
.and to add to the variables, the wires connect to stuff that can drive the wires with potential difference from the soil. This can "electroplate" the wires or wire protective coatings away, or it might slow it down. This is why stainless steel bolts and clamps last a lot longer on aluminum booms and elements than galvanized hardware does, despite what some people might think (or claim) based on looking at galvanic tables. None of this is a simple process of just looking at the material. It is a complex **system**. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2015 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Silver solder Hi Jorge, Aluminum wire may have a short life due to corrosion, depending on your local soil conditions. Aluminum wire buried in poorly drained clay soils is particularly susceptible to corrosion. It is for this reason that the National Electric Code bans the use of bare aluminum in soils. Corrosion is nothing more than the inherent tendency of refined metals such as aluminum to revert to their natural ore state through release of latent energy acquired during the refining process. Metals like copper, gold and silver that exist naturally in their metal lic state are almost totally impervious to corrosion from most soils found worldwide. Natural clay, sand, gravel, loam, and chalk soils seldom possess the combination of properties that promote copper corrosion. Abnormally aggressive soils -- for example, soils with extremely high levels of organic or inorganic acidic materials, sulfides, or carbon bearing materials such as cinders -- may promote copper corrosion. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" To: Topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 2:28:00 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Silver solder Thanks all for the help Will be looking for a lead free solder to solder terminals to the radial wires According to use 3.5 mm aluminum wire, what do you think? Is a good option or is better to use copper stranded cable? 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Gary Smith Enviado el: miércoles, 31 de diciembre de 2014 02:49 a.m. Para: Topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: Silver solder I 2nd Merv's experience. My on the ground radials, on an oceanside salt marsh, have held up as new for 4 years and I used the lead free plumbing solder. The only issue is that solder requires a bit more heat then the leaded solder. That's all I use outdoors any more. 734 & HNY, Gary KA1J Here in salt air regular solder turns to white powder pretty fast, I have been also using lead free solder, I got a roll of plumbers solder and a jar of resin flux. works very well on #10 radials and 4 inch wide copper strap etc. Have left several joints exposed and there is no corrosion after 4 years. Works great so far. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 > 2% is about what the lead-free electronic solders are (they are a tin/silver/copper alloy and are mostly tin). Don't bother with the 30%. My mechanical contractor uses this stuff to fix things he can't reach well enough to braze. It's not generally used for anything normal. > > Coincidentally I was just out soldering more radials last night. I use 18 gauge solid copper radial wire and a 1/2" copper pipe ring to tie them together. My original 29 radials were all soldered with lead-free electronic solder and they are all fine after 2-3 years. I didn't do anything to try to protect the soldered connections -- everything is fully exposed and lying on the ground. > > I added 31 more radials. I soldered some the same way, but I'm trying regular lead-free plumbing solder on the others. I am finding the plumbing flux to work better than the rosin-core solder (it wets the joints more evenly). I'm not sure what the exact alloy is for the plumbing solder. > > If you use the solder bars remember that you'll need separate flux and brushes to apply it. I like the water soluble flux -- it cleans up way easier. > > -Bill KB8WYP > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Dec 30, 2014, at 7:28 PM, Jorge Diez CX6VM wrote: >> >> Hello >> >> I read about using silver to solder wire radials to terminals >> >> This week I decided to ask sellers about silver solder and they >> offered me a 2% and 30% silver bars >> >> What we need for our use? Will be ok to use 2%? The difference in >> price is extremely high! >> >> Thanks, >> Jorge >> CX6VM/CW5W >> >> Enviado desde mi iPhone >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- Este mensaje no contiene v
Re: Topband: Silver solder
Hi Jorge, Aluminum wire may have a short life due to corrosion, depending on your local soil conditions. Aluminum wire buried in poorly drained clay soils is particularly susceptible to corrosion. It is for this reason that the National Electric Code bans the use of bare aluminum in soils. Corrosion is nothing more than the inherent tendency of refined metals such as aluminum to revert to their natural ore state through release of latent energy acquired during the refining process. Metals like copper, gold and silver that exist naturally in their metal lic state are almost totally impervious to corrosion from most soils found worldwide. Natural clay, sand, gravel, loam, and chalk soils seldom possess the combination of properties that promote copper corrosion. Abnormally aggressive soils -- for example, soils with extremely high levels of organic or inorganic acidic materials, sulfides, or carbon bearing materials such as cinders -- may promote copper corrosion. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" To: Topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2015 2:28:00 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Silver solder Thanks all for the help Will be looking for a lead free solder to solder terminals to the radial wires According to use 3.5 mm aluminum wire, what do you think? Is a good option or is better to use copper stranded cable? 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Gary Smith Enviado el: miércoles, 31 de diciembre de 2014 02:49 a.m. Para: Topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: Silver solder I 2nd Merv's experience. My on the ground radials, on an oceanside salt marsh, have held up as new for 4 years and I used the lead free plumbing solder. The only issue is that solder requires a bit more heat then the leaded solder. That's all I use outdoors any more. 734 & HNY, Gary KA1J > Here in salt air regular solder turns to white powder pretty fast, I > have been also using lead free solder, I got a roll of plumbers > solder and a jar of resin flux. works very well on #10 radials and > 4 inch wide copper strap etc. Have left several joints exposed > and there is no corrosion after 4 years. > Works great so far. > 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 > > > 2% is about what the lead-free electronic solders are (they are a tin/silver/copper alloy and are mostly tin). Don't bother with the 30%. My mechanical contractor uses this stuff to fix things he can't reach well enough to braze. It's not generally used for anything normal. > > > > Coincidentally I was just out soldering more radials last night. I use 18 gauge solid copper radial wire and a 1/2" copper pipe ring to tie them together. My original 29 radials were all soldered with lead-free electronic solder and they are all fine after 2-3 years. I didn't do anything to try to protect the soldered connections -- everything is fully exposed and lying on the ground. > > > > I added 31 more radials. I soldered some the same way, but I'm trying regular lead-free plumbing solder on the others. I am finding the plumbing flux to work better than the rosin-core solder (it wets the joints more evenly). I'm not sure what the exact alloy is for the plumbing solder. > > > > If you use the solder bars remember that you'll need separate flux and brushes to apply it. I like the water soluble flux -- it cleans up way easier. > > > > -Bill KB8WYP > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On Dec 30, 2014, at 7:28 PM, Jorge Diez CX6VM wrote: > >> > >> Hello > >> > >> I read about using silver to solder wire radials to terminals > >> > >> This week I decided to ask sellers about silver solder and they > >> offered me a 2% and 30% silver bars > >> > >> What we need for our use? Will be ok to use 2%? The difference in price is extremely high! > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Jorge > >> CX6VM/CW5W > >> > >> Enviado desde mi iPhone > >> _ > >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protección de avast! Antivirus está activa. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Silver solder
Thanks all for the help Will be looking for a lead free solder to solder terminals to the radial wires According to use 3.5 mm aluminum wire, what do you think? Is a good option or is better to use copper stranded cable? 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Gary Smith Enviado el: miércoles, 31 de diciembre de 2014 02:49 a.m. Para: Topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: Silver solder I 2nd Merv's experience. My on the ground radials, on an oceanside salt marsh, have held up as new for 4 years and I used the lead free plumbing solder. The only issue is that solder requires a bit more heat then the leaded solder. That's all I use outdoors any more. 734 & HNY, Gary KA1J > Here in salt air regular solder turns to white powder pretty fast, I > have been also using lead free solder, I got a roll of plumbers > solder and a jar of resin flux. works very well on #10 radials and > 4 inch wide copper strap etc. Have left several joints exposed > and there is no corrosion after 4 years. > Works great so far. > 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 > > > 2% is about what the lead-free electronic solders are (they are a tin/silver/copper alloy and are mostly tin). Don't bother with the 30%. My mechanical contractor uses this stuff to fix things he can't reach well enough to braze. It's not generally used for anything normal. > > > > Coincidentally I was just out soldering more radials last night. I use 18 gauge solid copper radial wire and a 1/2" copper pipe ring to tie them together. My original 29 radials were all soldered with lead-free electronic solder and they are all fine after 2-3 years. I didn't do anything to try to protect the soldered connections -- everything is fully exposed and lying on the ground. > > > > I added 31 more radials. I soldered some the same way, but I'm trying regular lead-free plumbing solder on the others. I am finding the plumbing flux to work better than the rosin-core solder (it wets the joints more evenly). I'm not sure what the exact alloy is for the plumbing solder. > > > > If you use the solder bars remember that you'll need separate flux and brushes to apply it. I like the water soluble flux -- it cleans up way easier. > > > > -Bill KB8WYP > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On Dec 30, 2014, at 7:28 PM, Jorge Diez CX6VM wrote: > >> > >> Hello > >> > >> I read about using silver to solder wire radials to terminals > >> > >> This week I decided to ask sellers about silver solder and they > >> offered me a 2% and 30% silver bars > >> > >> What we need for our use? Will be ok to use 2%? The difference in price is extremely high! > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Jorge > >> CX6VM/CW5W > >> > >> Enviado desde mi iPhone > >> _ > >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protección de avast! Antivirus está activa. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
