Re: Topband: Stew Beef

[Jeff AC0C]

Good point Gary.  My feelings exactly.  HNY.

73/jeff/ac0c
www.ac0c.com
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie

-Original Message- 
From: Gary Smith 
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2016 11:35 PM 
To: Topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: Stew Beef 

To me, I say what the hell, a good contest is a good contest. You 
want four of them, then run four of them. You don't want top run 
four, don't operate on all four of them.


The gem is you don't have to operate on any you don't want to. Why 
rain on someone's parade if they chose to work every contest they 
can?


Bring em' on. If I can work them, I will. If I can't, I'll work the 
next one I can.


Easy Peasy.

73 & Happy New Year to all.

Gary
KA1J
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Stew Beef

[Gary Smith]

To me, I say what the hell, a good contest is a good contest. You 
want four of them, then run four of them. You don't want top run 
four, don't operate on all four of them.

The gem is you don't have to operate on any you don't want to. Why 
rain on someone's parade if they chose to work every contest they 
can?

Bring em' on. If I can work them, I will. If I can't, I'll work the 
next one I can.

Easy Peasy.

73 & Happy New Year to all.

Gary
KA1J
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Termination Transformer

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,1/1/2016 5:01 PM, n0...@juno.com wrote:

Your winding is shorted to the core and there
could be even a shorted turn.


Yes, BUT -- the conductivity of ferrite cores varies a LOT from one mix 
to another. Some materials are excellent insulators (#61, #44), some are 
pretty good conductors (77, 78, 73, 75). Some are such good insulators 
that bare wires are used to wind coils through them. #31 is sort of in 
the middle -- VOM probes between parts of a #31 core will read in the 
high tens of KOhms.


Pages 4, 5, and 6 the link below show fundamental properties (including 
Resistivity) for each material, one vertical column per material.


http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/pdf/Fair-Rite_Catalog_17th_Edition.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Termination Transformer

[Mike Waters]

Argh! Yes, I stand corrected. I can't believe I did that. Thanks!

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

Mike,
>
> Did you mean the reactance of the winding and not the inductance of the
> winding. The units if inductance is Henries and the units for impedance is
> Ohms. So 2000 Henries to match 2000 Ohms?
>
> The units for reactance is conveniently Ohms and leads to more practical
> inductors.
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Termination Transformer

[Mike Waters]

Did I? :-)

In any case, the inductance and/or reactance of the unconnected winding(s)
in the 73 material ferrite core varies with frequency. That value should be
at least 4 times the impedance of what it is connected to.

There's more info on www.fair-rite.com.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

Mike, I think you mean "reactance" not inductance...
> ...
>
>  As soon as I hit "SEND", I realized that I should have said "inductance"
> rather than "impedance".
>
> The inductance of the winding should at least four times the impedance of
> the load at the lowest operating frequency.
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Termination Transformer

[Mike Waters]

I missed that!

Mike, you're NOT using bare wire are you? That's what this implies.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 7:01 PM,  wrote:

>
> ... I have read it is better to use insulated wire ...
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Termination Transformer

[n0tt1]

Mike,

> A second question, the BN-73-202 cores I use are conductive to a 
> small extent.  I have read it is better to use insulated wire or use 
> sleeves in the cores.  

You should use either enameled wire or something
like the wire-wrap wire that Radio Shack (used to?) sells.
See below on how I use enameled wire.

/>I noticed there was about 2.5K ohm between 
> the core and any of the windings.

Your winding is shorted to the core and there
could be even a shorted turn.  

> I assume some of the insulation 
> go scrapped off the enamel on the wire I was using.  

Yes, that's what happenedsharp edges at the
ends of the holes can slice right through enamel.

> I am moving to 
> insulated wire although that limits the number of turns.  

Use the wire-wrap wire or "Kynar" wire...it's #30 with a thin,
tough insulationcould be Teflon.  A small diameter probe,
something like a toothpick, will help pack the wire in the 
core if your need a lot of turns. 

On using enameled wire...I insulate the holes in the cores
with ordinary plastic soda straws.  I cut them just a little longer
than the length of the core and then slit them lengthwise
with small sissors.  Then I roll them in my fingers, observing
how much excess there is in the "roll" when inserted into the
core, then I cut off most of that excess, leaving some overlap.
I re-insert the roll into the core and it's ready for use.

73,
Charlie, N0TT

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Termination Transformer

[Mike Waters]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the correction! As soon as I hit "SEND", I realized that I
should have said "inductance" rather than "impedance".

The inductance of the winding should at least four times the impedance of
the load at the lowest operating frequency.

73, Mike
www.w0btu,com

On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On Fri,1/1/2016 3:09 PM, Mike Waters wrote:
>
>> John appears to be taking into account the impedance of the winding vs.
>> the impedance that the winding is connected to (the 710 ohm line).
>>
>
> A review of how transformers work is in order. Except for stray effects
> (capacitance between windings, resistance in a core), transformers have no
> impedance of their own. Rather, they multiply the impedance connected to
> the other winding by the square of the turns ratio. If you measure Z of an
> ideal transformer with the other winding open circuit, you should see an
> open circuit (infinite Z). Real transformers have strays, so you'll see
> some high Z.
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Termination Transformer

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,1/1/2016 3:09 PM, Mike Waters wrote:

John appears to be taking into account the impedance of the winding vs. the 
impedance that the winding is connected to (the 710 ohm line).


A review of how transformers work is in order. Except for stray effects 
(capacitance between windings, resistance in a core), transformers have 
no impedance of their own. Rather, they multiply the impedance connected 
to the other winding by the square of the turns ratio. If you measure Z 
of an ideal transformer with the other winding open circuit, you should 
see an open circuit (infinite Z). Real transformers have strays, so 
you'll see some high Z.


73, Jim K9YC

73, Jim K9YC
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Termination Transformer

[Mike Waters]

Hello Mike,

On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Mike Greenway  wrote:

> ... latest book Pg 7-88, “As we are dealing with nominal impedances that
> are higher ...  not sure why the doubling of the turns is needed.  The
> ratio stayed the same...
>

John appears to be taking into account the impedance of the winding vs. the
impedance that the winding is connected to (the 710 ohm line).


... I guess the question is how bad does the resistance from different
> points on the winding to the core affect things
>

The short answer is that you should replace the windings that have the
coating scraped off.
Using a liner is best, but it's not absolutely necessary.

I'll bet you're using solderable wire, aren't you? If you have some magnet
wire with a tougher coating (such as Formvar or Belden® heavy-armored
Polythermaleze®) it's not so likely to be damaged. You'll have to remove
the coating at each end, because a soldering iron won't melt it.

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: [Bulk] Re: Anybody?

[Grant Saviers]

see N6LF's work on 160m top hats 
http://rudys.typepad.com/files/qex-short-verticals-for-160m.pdf


My guess is that informed the DXE design.

Grant KZ1W

On 1/1/2016 12:07 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

On 1/1/2016 8:16 AM, K4OWR wrote:

 Does anyone recall that I originally asked about this?

http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-160va-1?seid=dxese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAno60BRDt89rAh7qt-4wBEiQASes2tUOULTlQpNyMARBk4ZWRxw70jODW_FJCuBJ1Td47YMgaAhgQ8P8HAQ 




BILL K4OWR


I looked at the data sheet on this and my intuition
told me the top hat didn't make sense either electrically
or mechanically.  I did some quick and dirty
modeling with EZNEC over perfect ground and
got a drive impedance around 6-j34 at 1.83 MHz.  I
then deleted the horizontal skirt wires and pulled
out the 39 foot top loading wires to a 45 degree angle.
I then got a drive impedance of around 8-j9.
A rope tied to the guy anchors in the manual works
perfectly to do this.  These hybrid wire/ropes then
become top guys.   Its almost as if this was the original
design, and then they wanted to make a fancy top
hat.  The data sheet brags about the
uniform current in the vertical, but this simplified
version kept the current within +/-7%.  Good enough
for me.  I don't have a mechanical modeling program,
but I don't like the DXE design in that respect either.
It doesn't lend itself to a falling derrick erection
method, so you have to use their patented winching
fixture and bolt it to a concrete base.  It seems like
this is the hard to way to build a vertical.

I needed an emergency 160 meter vertical a few years
ago and I made a 60 footer out of 2 30' long
3" diameter irrigation pipes with 2 top loading
wires pulled out.  A third pipe was used as a
falling derrick.  Pretty simple and it worked great.

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Termination Transformer

[Mike Greenway]

I was reworking my two wire beverage and re-examining some of the reasoning for 
my construction.  Regarding the termination transformer, ON4UN comments in his 
latest book Pg 7-88, “As we are dealing with nominal impedances that are higher 
than low-z coaxial cable impedances, we shall multiply the last number by 2, 
which will mean that n1 will be 8 turns with center tap and n2 will be 6”..  
The original computation was for 4 turns n1 with center tap and n2 was 3.  Not 
being an engineer and I not sure why the doubling of the turns is needed.  The 
ratio stayed the same since both the primary and secondary got doubled. 
 

A second question, the BN-73-202 cores I use are conductive to a small extent.  
I have read it is better to use insulated wire or use sleeves in the cores.  I 
noticed there was about 2.5K ohm between the core and any of the windings.  Not 
sure if that really detrimental but I don’t like it.  I assume some of the 
insulation go scrapped off the enamel on the wire I was using.  I am moving to 
insulated wire although that limits the number of turns.  I guess the question 
is how bad does the resistance from different points on the winding to the core 
affect things being in the 2.5 K area? 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Stew Beef

[kolson]

What do you mean by that crack? (hi hi)

Kevin K3OX

- Original Message -
From: Bill Cromwell 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 18:37:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Topband: Stew Beef

As per usual...

It all depends on whose ox is being gored.

73,

Bill  KU8H


On 12/31/2015 03:48 PM, Joe Wilkowski wrote:
> Well, since it is a public forum I have to side with Larry on this.  I am a
> contester and enjoy mostly top band operating but I would have to agree 
that
> too much of a good thing gets old quick.  It used to be that you looked
> forward to the SP, but warm-ups, pre-warmups etc. seem to carry the theme
> too far.
> - Joe K8FC
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Larry
> Burke
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 6:38 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Stew Beef
>
>> Fortunately participation is not mandatory for those who have had 
enough.
> Ah, but that's exactly my point. Those with a limited or no interest in 
this
> event DO have to "participate" in it by virtue of the additional weekend of
> chaos that it causes.
>
> - Larry K5RK
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jeff 
AC0C
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 5:31 PM
> To: Steve; topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Stew Beef
>
> Fortunately participation is not mandatory for those who have had enough.
> Given the winter stew was a thunderstorm extravaganza for most of the
> midwest, another shot at it prior to spring would be attractive for many.
>
> April may be a bit late to have good low noise conditions.
>
> 73/jeff/ac0c
> www.ac0c.com
> alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 5:05 PM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Stew Beef
>
> I tend to agree Larry - even more Stew is not necessarily a good thing.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> WEB - "The VE7SL Radio Notebook":  http://members.shaw.ca/ve7sl
>
> VE7SL BLOG - "Homebrewing and Operating Adventures From 2200m to 
Nanowaves":
> http://ve7sl.blogspot.ca/
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 1/1/2016 8:16 AM, K4OWR wrote:

 Does anyone recall that I originally asked about this?

http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-160va-1?seid=dxese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAno60BRDt89rAh7qt-4wBEiQASes2tUOULTlQpNyMARBk4ZWRxw70jODW_FJCuBJ1Td47YMgaAhgQ8P8HAQ



BILL K4OWR


I looked at the data sheet on this and my intuition
told me the top hat didn't make sense either electrically
or mechanically.  I did some quick and dirty
modeling with EZNEC over perfect ground and
got a drive impedance around 6-j34 at 1.83 MHz.  I
then deleted the horizontal skirt wires and pulled
out the 39 foot top loading wires to a 45 degree angle.
I then got a drive impedance of around 8-j9.
A rope tied to the guy anchors in the manual works
perfectly to do this.  These hybrid wire/ropes then
become top guys.   Its almost as if this was the original
design, and then they wanted to make a fancy top
hat.  The data sheet brags about the
uniform current in the vertical, but this simplified
version kept the current within +/-7%.  Good enough
for me.  I don't have a mechanical modeling program,
but I don't like the DXE design in that respect either.
It doesn't lend itself to a falling derrick erection
method, so you have to use their patented winching
fixture and bolt it to a concrete base.  It seems like
this is the hard to way to build a vertical.

I needed an emergency 160 meter vertical a few years
ago and I made a 60 footer out of 2 30' long
3" diameter irrigation pipes with 2 top loading
wires pulled out.  A third pipe was used as a
falling derrick.  Pretty simple and it worked great.

Rick N6RK
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

I looked at the data sheet on this and my intuition
told me the top hat didn't make sense either electrically
or mechanically.  I did some quick and dirty
modeling with EZNEC over perfect ground and
got a drive impedance around 6-j34 at 1.83 MHz.  I
then deleted the horizontal skirt wires and pulled
out the 39 foot top loading wires to a 45 degree angle.
I then got a drive impedance of around 8-j9.
A rope tied to the guy anchors in the manual works
perfectly to do this.  These hybrid wire/ropes then
become top guys.   Its almost as if this was the original
design, and then they wanted to make a fancy top
hat.  The data sheet brags about the
uniform current in the vertical, but this simplified
version kept the current within +/-7%.  Good enough
for me.  I don't have a mechanical modeling program,
but I don't like the DXE design in that respect either.
It doesn't lend itself to a falling derrick erection
method, so you have to use their patented winching
fixture and bolt it to a concrete base.  It seems like
this is the hard to way to build a vertical.

I needed an emergency 160 meter vertical a few years
ago and I made a 60 footer out of 2 30' long
3" diameter irrigation pipes with 2 top loading
wires pulled out.  A third pipe was used as a
falling derrick.  Pretty simple and it worked great.

Rick N6RK

On 1/1/2016 8:16 AM, K4OWR wrote:

 Does anyone recall that I originally asked about this?

http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-160va-1?seid=dxese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAno60BRDt89rAh7qt-4wBEiQASes2tUOULTlQpNyMARBk4ZWRxw70jODW_FJCuBJ1Td47YMgaAhgQ8P8HAQ


I appreciate all the advice, but a lot of people recommended antennas
that I have had for years.

BILL K4OWR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,1/1/2016 10:58 AM, D. Scott MacKenzie wrote:

I like the idea of switching antennas as that takes the rig out of the possible
variables - even though it is probably in the noise.


But then you've got to have the rig use two different callsigns. Far 
easier to use two rigs whose power can be well controlled, each with its 
own callsign. K3 and KX3 meet this requirement, power can be set with a 
decent wattmeter.


73, Jim K9YC
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[D. Scott MacKenzie]

Typically there are quite a few, and over time it would build up data
points.  Since WSPR is a weak signal mode, the antenna question is moot.  A
simple script might be able to be able to be written to either switch
antennas at different transmission cycles, or to key different rigs.  I like
the idea of switching antennas as that takes the rig out of the possible
variables - even though it is probably in the noise.

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2016 1:50 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Anybody?

On Fri,1/1/2016 10:04 AM, D. Scott MacKenzie wrote:
> I like your RBN testing - nice idea.  I wonder if the process could be 
> automated to some extent by using WSPR.  By proper programing you 
> could alternate antennas.  Might be an interesting to try.  This way 
> you could let it run over a period of time, and collected.  Data is 
> gathered in SNR and 6 digit grid.  Data can then be analyzed and presented
in a suitable format.

Yes, with any evaluation of antenna performance, more data from more points
over greater time is better.

We did what we could easily do without that automation. I don't know enough
about WSPR to know the extent to which two QRP rigs at the same site could
TX with different callsigns in alternate transmission cycles. 
Another limitation is the number of WSPR stations active on 80M with
antennas good enough to hear us.

73, Jim K9YC


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[Jim Brown]

On Fri,1/1/2016 10:04 AM, D. Scott MacKenzie wrote:

I like your RBN testing - nice idea.  I wonder if the process could be
automated to some extent by using WSPR.  By proper programing you could
alternate antennas.  Might be an interesting to try.  This way you could let
it run over a period of time, and collected.  Data is gathered in SNR and 6
digit grid.  Data can then be analyzed and presented in a suitable format.


Yes, with any evaluation of antenna performance, more data from more 
points over greater time is better.


We did what we could easily do without that automation. I don't know 
enough about WSPR to know the extent to which two QRP rigs at the same 
site could TX with different callsigns in alternate transmission cycles. 
Another limitation is the number of WSPR stations active on 80M with 
antennas good enough to hear us.


73, Jim K9YC


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[D. Scott MacKenzie]

I like your RBN testing - nice idea.  I wonder if the process could be
automated to some extent by using WSPR.  By proper programing you could
alternate antennas.  Might be an interesting to try.  This way you could let
it run over a period of time, and collected.  Data is gathered in SNR and 6
digit grid.  Data can then be analyzed and presented in a suitable format.


I would try it but no antennas are up now nor will be for the foreseeable
future.


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2016 12:40 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Anybody?

I can confirm Jim's experience that the Spiderbeam poles are NOT very
robust, and are not sufficiently robust to be used in the manner Spiderbeam
describes. We bought a 40 ft Spiderbeam pole to use as part of an 80M
vertical for FD and county expeditions for the California QSO Party.  The
antenna worked fine -- until the wind blew and broke the Spiderbeam mast at
the point of attachment to the rest of the antenna.  
The poles are advertised as being reinforced by crossed fibers; our pole was
not, which is why it broke.

The mechanical engineer for our antenna, Glen, W6GJB, is an M.E. by degree,
and practices as an aeronautical engineer in the space program. 
He's quite familiar with materials and the stresses in a given design. 
He holds a dozen or so patents.

I can also confirm that the antenna is NOT easy to erect, and for the same
reason Jim cited -- the top wobbles around, generating lots of side stresses
as it goes up, making it more difficult to raise. We needed five people, one
on each guy, and two at the antenna base.  Our antenna, and our experience,
is described here.

http://k9yc.com/80M-FDVertical.pdf

We're very pleased with its performance and every aspect of its design other
than the Spiderbeam pole.  We tested the antenna over poor ground at Glen's
QTH, and our FD and CQP sites also have poor ground. Over good ground, the
advantage of this antenna over the reference inverted Vee would increase by
3-6 dB.

73, Jim K9YC

On Fri,1/1/2016 9:13 AM, Jim Garland wrote:
> I have the 26m (85.3 ft) Spiderbeam fiberglass vertical, with sixty 
> 30m radials on top of sandy desert soil. It uses four 7m top hat 
> wires, and is tuned to 1.820 MHz, where the VSWR is 1.47:1.  I feed it 
> with about 300m of buried hardline.  The assembly instructions are 
> clear and the antenna tuned to frequency very easily. It's a good 
> perfomer, although the radiatmg wire only extends up to about 24m .
>
> Structurally, the antenna is relatively light duty. It has four levels 
> of guy lines (16 guys total), the top two levels being 1 mm Kevlar and 
> very thin polypropylene fishing line attached to the top hat wires.. 
> The top few sections of mast resemble fishing poles and are very 
> flexible. The bottom section is roughly 6 inch OD and with the 
> supplied rubber cap fits tightly into standard PVC plumbing tubing. I 
> anchored a 1m length of the PVC into concrete and that made a dandy anchor
point for the mast.
>
> The top hat is made of very thin wire with a low breaking strength. 
> Rodents ate through the Kevlar guys last year and toppled the antenna, 
> which broke into three pieces. I redid the guys, elevating the anchor 
> points, so don't expect that problem to recur. Don't be deceived by 
> the YouTube video showing the pole being raised by two people. When 
> the wire is attached to the pole, including the top hat wires, 
> erection for me has been a four hour job involving a minimum of six 
> people; four at each guy anchor and two to hoist the mast. The 
> slightest wind makes erection very difficult because slight flexing 
> prevents the nested sections from sliding. Last time I did this I 
> mounted a 12 foot long 4x4 post in concrete next to the pole with an 
> inexpensive hand winch to raise the sections. That helped a lot.  I can
send photos to anyone interested.
> 73,
> Jim W8ZR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[Jim Brown]

I can confirm Jim's experience that the Spiderbeam poles are NOT very 
robust, and are not sufficiently robust to be used in the manner 
Spiderbeam describes. We bought a 40 ft Spiderbeam pole to use as part 
of an 80M vertical for FD and county expeditions for the California QSO 
Party.  The antenna worked fine -- until the wind blew and broke the 
Spiderbeam mast at the point of attachment to the rest of the antenna.  
The poles are advertised as being reinforced by crossed fibers; our pole 
was not, which is why it broke.


The mechanical engineer for our antenna, Glen, W6GJB, is an M.E. by 
degree, and practices as an aeronautical engineer in the space program. 
He's quite familiar with materials and the stresses in a given design. 
He holds a dozen or so patents.


I can also confirm that the antenna is NOT easy to erect, and for the 
same reason Jim cited -- the top wobbles around, generating lots of side 
stresses as it goes up, making it more difficult to raise. We needed 
five people, one on each guy, and two at the antenna base.  Our antenna, 
and our experience, is described here.


http://k9yc.com/80M-FDVertical.pdf

We're very pleased with its performance and every aspect of its design 
other than the Spiderbeam pole.  We tested the antenna over poor ground 
at Glen's QTH, and our FD and CQP sites also have poor ground. Over good 
ground, the advantage of this antenna over the reference inverted Vee 
would increase by 3-6 dB.


73, Jim K9YC

On Fri,1/1/2016 9:13 AM, Jim Garland wrote:

I have the 26m (85.3 ft) Spiderbeam fiberglass vertical, with sixty 30m
radials on top of sandy desert soil. It uses four 7m top hat wires, and is
tuned to 1.820 MHz, where the VSWR is 1.47:1.  I feed it with about 300m of
buried hardline.  The assembly instructions are clear and the antenna tuned
to frequency very easily. It's a good perfomer, although the radiatmg wire
only extends up to about 24m .

Structurally, the antenna is relatively light duty. It has four levels of
guy lines (16 guys total), the top two levels being 1 mm Kevlar and very
thin polypropylene fishing line attached to the top hat wires.. The top few
sections of mast resemble fishing poles and are very flexible. The bottom
section is roughly 6 inch OD and with the supplied rubber cap fits tightly
into standard PVC plumbing tubing. I anchored a 1m length of the PVC into
concrete and that made a dandy anchor point for the mast.

The top hat is made of very thin wire with a low breaking strength. Rodents
ate through the Kevlar guys last year and toppled the antenna, which broke
into three pieces. I redid the guys, elevating the anchor points, so don't
expect that problem to recur. Don't be deceived by the YouTube video showing
the pole being raised by two people. When the wire is attached to the pole,
including the top hat wires, erection for me has been a four hour job
involving a minimum of six people; four at each guy anchor and two to hoist
the mast. The slightest wind makes erection very difficult because slight
flexing prevents the nested sections from sliding. Last time I did this I
mounted a 12 foot long 4x4 post in concrete next to the pole with an
inexpensive hand winch to raise the sections. That helped a lot.  I can send
photos to anyone interested.
73,
Jim W8ZR


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[Jim Garland]

I have the 26m (85.3 ft) Spiderbeam fiberglass vertical, with sixty 30m
radials on top of sandy desert soil. It uses four 7m top hat wires, and is
tuned to 1.820 MHz, where the VSWR is 1.47:1.  I feed it with about 300m of
buried hardline.  The assembly instructions are clear and the antenna tuned
to frequency very easily. It's a good perfomer, although the radiatmg wire
only extends up to about 24m .

Structurally, the antenna is relatively light duty. It has four levels of
guy lines (16 guys total), the top two levels being 1 mm Kevlar and very
thin polypropylene fishing line attached to the top hat wires.. The top few
sections of mast resemble fishing poles and are very flexible. The bottom
section is roughly 6 inch OD and with the supplied rubber cap fits tightly
into standard PVC plumbing tubing. I anchored a 1m length of the PVC into
concrete and that made a dandy anchor point for the mast.

The top hat is made of very thin wire with a low breaking strength. Rodents
ate through the Kevlar guys last year and toppled the antenna, which broke
into three pieces. I redid the guys, elevating the anchor points, so don't
expect that problem to recur. Don't be deceived by the YouTube video showing
the pole being raised by two people. When the wire is attached to the pole,
including the top hat wires, erection for me has been a four hour job
involving a minimum of six people; four at each guy anchor and two to hoist
the mast. The slightest wind makes erection very difficult because slight
flexing prevents the nested sections from sliding. Last time I did this I
mounted a 12 foot long 4x4 post in concrete next to the pole with an
inexpensive hand winch to raise the sections. That helped a lot.  I can send
photos to anyone interested.
73,
Jim W8ZR 

> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Henk
PA5KT
> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2016 09:29 AM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: Anybody?
> 
> Bill,
> 
> This is a standard toploaded vertical. Spiderbeam sells the same with
> fiber mast.
>
(http://www.spiderbeam.com/product_info.php?info=p337_160m%20Wire%20Vertical
%20
> kit%20including%2018m%20fiberglass%20pole.html)
> 
> Like any other vertical the performance of your antenna depends on your
> radial system.
> 
> I do not have experience with these commercial available antennas as I
> have  tree of that height which I use.
> 
> 73 Henk PA5KT
> 
> Op 1/1/2016 om 5:16 PM schreef K4OWR:
> >  Does anyone recall that I originally asked about this?
> >
> > http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-160va-
> 1?seid=dxese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAno60BRDt89rAh7qt-
> 4wBEiQASes2tUOULTlQpNyMARBk4ZWRxw70jODW_FJCuBJ1Td47YMgaAhgQ8P8
> HAQ
> >
> >
> > I appreciate all the advice, but a lot of people recommended antennas
> > that I have had for years.
> >
> > BILL K4OWR
> >
> > _
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Stew Beef

[Michael Adams]

A topband contest in early-mid March

The biggest problem I see with the concept is that (assuming not abnormally 
warm weather) for some of us that's the time of year by when Ol' Man Winter 
will almost certainly have brought down the good tx and/or rx antennas, but 
before the snowpack shrinks enough to do anything about it.  :)

Seriously thoughwhile I don't think there is such a thing as "too many 
contests" (after all, there are some successful, fun weekly contests being 
run), I'll admit that I tend not to get too excited about summer or fall Stews 
because of the relatively limited participation levels.  There may be something 
romantic about the image of a boy and his radio endlessly calling CQ through 
the night, but I have to maximize the fun I have in the limited amount of play 
time the XYL allows me. 

If there's a contest and if I'm in the shack, I'll probably tune around to see 
if there's any fun to be had.  But I am constrained on just how often I can 
clear a block of time to make a serious effort.  Nevertheless, I welcome the 
extra serving of Stew.  

-- 
Michael Adams | N1EN | m...@n1en.org
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Anybody?

[Henk PA5KT]

Bill,

This is a standard toploaded vertical. Spiderbeam sells the same with 
fiber mast.

(http://www.spiderbeam.com/product_info.php?info=p337_160m%20Wire%20Vertical%20kit%20including%2018m%20fiberglass%20pole.html)

Like any other vertical the performance of your antenna depends on your 
radial system.


I do not have experience with these commercial available antennas as I 
have  tree of that height which I use.


73 Henk PA5KT

Op 1/1/2016 om 5:16 PM schreef K4OWR:

 Does anyone recall that I originally asked about this?

http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-160va-1?seid=dxese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAno60BRDt89rAh7qt-4wBEiQASes2tUOULTlQpNyMARBk4ZWRxw70jODW_FJCuBJ1Td47YMgaAhgQ8P8HAQ 



I appreciate all the advice, but a lot of people recommended antennas 
that I have had for years.


BILL K4OWR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Anybody?

[K4OWR]

 Does anyone recall that I originally asked about this?

http://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-160va-1?seid=dxese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAno60BRDt89rAh7qt-4wBEiQASes2tUOULTlQpNyMARBk4ZWRxw70jODW_FJCuBJ1Td47YMgaAhgQ8P8HAQ

I appreciate all the advice, but a lot of people recommended antennas 
that I have had for years.


BILL K4OWR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Commercial 160 antennas?

[Hank Garretson]

On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 5:50 AM, Ed Sawyer  wrote:

We would do better sometimes to stop talking ideal and actually help posters
> when they state a question with clear compromises and limitations.  In my
> opinion anyway.
>

Okay. In my anecdotal experience, an inverted L, or in my case a T, with a
single bent elevated counterpoise beats the pants off my horizontal or
inverted-V wires.

Specifics. I have horizontal room for a 90-foot flattop. I make this into
an 80-meter dipole by with dropping 30-foot doglegs at each end. The
flattop is only 46 feet high. I feed the dipole with coax. On 160, I tie
the coax together and feed it against a single 134-foot counterpoise 12
feet above ground. The counterpoise runs about forty feet to back of yard
and then is bent back to run by side of house toward street. Included bent
angle is about 40 degrees.

This arrangement works. WAS in one weekend. All continents except Europe in
one weekend. Anecdotal--everyone's mileage will vary.

Someday, I'm going to try to add some more counterpoises but it will be
hard given my layout. Maybe a K2AV FCP or two.

Bottom line. Vertical is usually better than horizontal or inverted-V. Put
up the best you can manage. Most important, don't let naysayers keep you
from getting on the most-fun band ever.

73,

Hank, W6SX
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Commercial 160 antennas?

[Ed Sawyer]

Guys, the point of the original posts, if you actually read it, was from
someone who is balancing their limitations vs an antenna choice.  If a
significant portion of the radial field desired is un obtainable, then
vertical antennas are not the defacto choice necessarily.

 

As someone with 2 phased T top verticals and over 10,000 ft of radial wire
on the ground, I get that.  But not everyone has the interest, ability, or
circumstance to install the "best" antenna.

 

While an inverted vee at 90 ft puts a lot of signal in the wrong direction
for most prop.  All top banders know that there are times when it actually
IS the best antenna.  Not often, but with ducting conditions, sometimes.
And if your ground losses are terrible through poor radial efficiency, the
signal level at desired radiation angles, starts getting a lot closer than
you would realize.

 

We would do better sometimes to stop talking ideal and actually help posters
when they state a question with clear compromises and limitations.  In my
opinion anyway.

 

Ed  N1UR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband