Re: Topband: Giving "true" signal reports
> What do you give if you listen to the signal on a beverage? Does it > have a preamp and do you take that into account? A S9 on the transmit > antenna won't be S9 on a beverage. I think the idea of using a contest > to find out how you are getting out is fine but you don't, as others > have already pointed out, need a signal report for that. > N4XD The "S" in RST system on CW was never intended to be an S-meter report. In fact, the RST system and it predecessor were in place long before most hams even had an S-meter on their receiver. The signal report was designed to be (an inherently a subjective) evaluation BY EAR of the signal by the person doing the listening on a receiver. Pick up an ARRL handbook and review the definitions of each component of the RST. Under certain conditions, for example with some of the receiving antennas commonly used on 160m, a valid signal report might be 589 or 599, even though it only registers S2 on the meter. An S-meter report can be made more meaningful by reporting the reading with the presence of the signal, and again with the background noise in the absence of the signal. For example, "you are hitting ten over nine on the meter, and the background noise is S-3". IMO, one of the weaknesses of the RS(T) system is the nine levels of signal strength. Whoever originally conceived of the system got it right with five levels of readability, but missed the mark with nine levels of signal strength. It is unrealistic to make a clear distinction between, for example, S6 and S7. RST is an adaptation of the old QSA-R system, which likewise had superfluous nine levels of signal strength report, represented by "R". A five-nine report would have been expressed as "Q5, R9", and this terminology was still heard from old timers as late as the 1960s. Five levels of readability and five levels of strength would be much more meaningful, and less subjective on the part of the operator, than nine. French-speaking military communication uses a 5 by 5 system for signal reports, and the expression has crept into ordinary (non-radio) language to mean "(I hear you) loud and clear": "cinq sur cinq". Regarding contests, since the signal report has been declared meaningless, it should be eliminated altogether. In any case, in the rare occasions that I do participate in a contest, you can expect an honest signal report from me. Don k4kyv _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
Give me an S1 and I won't answer any more of you CQ's. So there! Sent from AOL Mobile Mail -Original Message- From: Tom W8JI To: Steve Flood Cc: Topband Sent: Sat, Jan 9, 2016 12:16 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths >>> marks on a rubber band. > > > Great analogy Tom.If I were truthful with the signal reports for most > of > the topband DX worked here, using the S-meter with RX loops, I would be > sending "209". I don't know how to really express it, but our S meters have index marks that say the same thing but all read (because of many variables) different things. It's like have voltmeters where on some meters 1 volt is .529 volts and on others one volt is 8.7 volts. It isn't just the receiver (which are poor enough), it is the IF filter, local noise, antenna gain, and everything else. If we dispense with the S meter and go by ear, it can get even worse. I don't anyone who can listen to a receiver without looking at an S meter and tell levels from one through nine based on sound. Why anyone would criticize other people or contests for something we should all know is either next to meaningless at worse, or cannot ever be accurate at best, is beyond my comprehension. If you like the guy, give him an S9. If you don't, tell him he is S1. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband"; target="_blank">http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: receive 4 sq question
I have been looking at ways to improve reception around here. The receive 4 square comes to mind. Has anyone experimented with incorporating one or more variable phasing controllers (like the DXE NCC-1)? This would be to further reduce noise from a given direction. Perhaps you constructed a controller with 4 antenna inputs? 73, Art NK8X ᐧ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
marks on a rubber band. Great analogy Tom.If I were truthful with the signal reports for most of the topband DX worked here, using the S-meter with RX loops, I would be sending "209". I don't know how to really express it, but our S meters have index marks that say the same thing but all read (because of many variables) different things. It's like have voltmeters where on some meters 1 volt is .529 volts and on others one volt is 8.7 volts. It isn't just the receiver (which are poor enough), it is the IF filter, local noise, antenna gain, and everything else. If we dispense with the S meter and go by ear, it can get even worse. I don't anyone who can listen to a receiver without looking at an S meter and tell levels from one through nine based on sound. Why anyone would criticize other people or contests for something we should all know is either next to meaningless at worse, or cannot ever be accurate at best, is beyond my comprehension. If you like the guy, give him an S9. If you don't, tell him he is S1. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
Agree with Tom. My Flex 6300 calibrates signal strength directly in dbm, which makes a lot more sense to me than S-units. I've checked it with a switched attenuator, and it's quite accurate. The log scale of the display makes it's very easy to see the effects of attenuators, preamplifiers, RX antennas, etc. jim w8zr Sent from my iPhone On Jan 9, 2016, at 8:38 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: >> Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages. The received >> noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased >> EU beverages is S0 to S1. I have found the signal strengths of the received >> stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on >> the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise >> floor by a 1 or 2 S units. Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the >> beverage preamp. The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only >> 1 to 2 S units. I often drop in some attenuation to make the noise floor >> "just" go away. > If the signal comes up 3-4 S units and the noise 1-2 S units, the meter is > nonlinear. This is typical for many receivers. Some are as little as 1 dB per > S unit down low on the scale. Most meters (it was years ago I looked) were 3 > to 5 dB per S unit up at the high scale end. > > The entire idea of S readings is for many uncontrollable reasons.. > meaningless. > > There have been various campaigns over the years to correct reports, but none > can ever mean anything. > > It is silly getting all worked up because we **think** S meters and S reports > are like precision dial calipers, when they are really like marks on a rubber > band. > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
>> marks on a rubber band. Great analogy Tom.If I were truthful with the signal reports for most of the topband DX worked here, using the S-meter with RX loops, I would be sending "209". Steve KK7UV --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages. The received noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased EU beverages is S0 to S1. I have found the signal strengths of the received stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise floor by a 1 or 2 S units. Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the beverage preamp. The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only 1 to 2 S units. I often drop in some attenuation to make the noise floor "just" go away. If the signal comes up 3-4 S units and the noise 1-2 S units, the meter is nonlinear. This is typical for many receivers. Some are as little as 1 dB per S unit down low on the scale. Most meters (it was years ago I looked) were 3 to 5 dB per S unit up at the high scale end. The entire idea of S readings is for many uncontrollable reasons.. meaningless. There have been various campaigns over the years to correct reports, but none can ever mean anything. It is silly getting all worked up because we **think** S meters and S reports are like precision dial calipers, when they are really like marks on a rubber band. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
Here, 160m vertical had noise floor this AM of -103 dbm, with beverages (720 ft), about -118 dbm, measured with Flex 6300. No need for a preamp.BTW, 160 was poor this morning. Jim W8ZR > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of C Allen > Baker via > Topband > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 06:29 AM > To: sawye...@earthlink.net; topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths > > > > On Saturday, January 9, 2016 6:52 AM, Ed Sawyer > wrote: > > > The 5NN discussion brought up an interesting subject to me. Signal > strengths reported on 75M SSB are funny to listen too as people seem to be > in a "mines bigger than yours" competition on how many dB above S9 a signal > is. Meanwhile their noise floor is probably S7 or more - what's the point? > > > > Here at N1UR, on 160, I have switchable T verticals (EU direction and Omni). > I NEVER listen on them. Nighttime noise floor is typically S5 - 7 in the > winter on them with static crashes well over S9 if there is storming in the > east half of the US (for CW). I have done some signal strength comparisons > with EU stations and Carib stations vs my beverages. > > > > Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages. The received > noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased > EU beverages is S0 to S1. I have found the signal strengths of the received > stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on > the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise > floor by a 1 or 2 S units. Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the > beverage preamp. The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only > 1 to 2 S units. I often drop in some attenuation to make the noise floor > "just" go away. > > > > What do others see as the difference in transmit antenna vs low noise > antenna signal strengths? > > > > N1UR > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
>From my perspective, "S" meter readings cannot give an accurate representation of your station's RX performance, or at least it never has for me, because evaluating or comparing signal levels would be very difficult. I use a calibrated panadapter where I get very good documentation of my noise floor, in dBm, to begin with. Noise floor's will very from station to station and given your QTH will vary from direction to direction if your RX system is working properly. This also allows me to keep records of my noise floor to identify any changes over time (if you don't, you should!). If someone really likes to jack up a lot of "preamp gain" that does nothing but cause related problems and you can definitely have a signal "10 over" but your noise floor may be close to the same!!! You don't need a preamp or a bunch of extra RX gain just because your buddy told you so!! There are lots of good info out there to educate yourself on whether you do or not (also a lot of BAD info!). Start with W8JI's tutorial. After evaluating my noise floor I then compare signal strengths to their level above my noise floor, in dB, and never pay attention to my S meter. This gives me accurate comparison to record day to day, or over time, changes in my station, changes in propagation or several other factors. That is vital in keeping my station working at an effective level, or to compare when making improvements. As far as "RST" goes, it would be awkward, but more meaningful for me to send "S -120dB NF -128" for signal and noise floor levels rather than "RST" but in reality for me whether I can actually copy the other stations information (call sign, whatever report, etc) is what is important. If I can copy it all clearly, regardless to signal level, it is a strength of "9". I am very familiar with the history of the "RST" system but in reality how applicable is it today with today's technology? For my operating, it is just an exchange of information, for my station's performance records, it is meaningless. 73 Joel W5ZN www.w5zn.org _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Received Signal Strengths
On Saturday, January 9, 2016 6:52 AM, Ed Sawyer wrote: The 5NN discussion brought up an interesting subject to me. Signal strengths reported on 75M SSB are funny to listen too as people seem to be in a "mines bigger than yours" competition on how many dB above S9 a signal is. Meanwhile their noise floor is probably S7 or more - what's the point? Here at N1UR, on 160, I have switchable T verticals (EU direction and Omni). I NEVER listen on them. Nighttime noise floor is typically S5 - 7 in the winter on them with static crashes well over S9 if there is storming in the east half of the US (for CW). I have done some signal strength comparisons with EU stations and Carib stations vs my beverages. Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages. The received noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased EU beverages is S0 to S1. I have found the signal strengths of the received stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise floor by a 1 or 2 S units. Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the beverage preamp. The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only 1 to 2 S units. I often drop in some attenuation to make the noise floor "just" go away. What do others see as the difference in transmit antenna vs low noise antenna signal strengths? N1UR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Received Signal Strengths
The 5NN discussion brought up an interesting subject to me. Signal strengths reported on 75M SSB are funny to listen too as people seem to be in a "mines bigger than yours" competition on how many dB above S9 a signal is. Meanwhile their noise floor is probably S7 or more - what's the point? Here at N1UR, on 160, I have switchable T verticals (EU direction and Omni). I NEVER listen on them. Nighttime noise floor is typically S5 - 7 in the winter on them with static crashes well over S9 if there is storming in the east half of the US (for CW). I have done some signal strength comparisons with EU stations and Carib stations vs my beverages. Typically, on 160M, I leave the preamp off for my beverages. The received noise floor for my N/S beverage (on CW) is usually S2 - 3 and for my phased EU beverages is S0 to S1. I have found the signal strengths of the received stations to be 1 to 2 S units down on the beverage and equal or stronger on the beverage if I turn the preamp on - with usually a rise in the noise floor by a 1 or 2 S units. Interestingly, on 80M CW, I usually use the beverage preamp. The signal often comes up 3 - 4 S units and the noise only 1 to 2 S units. I often drop in some attenuation to make the noise floor "just" go away. What do others see as the difference in transmit antenna vs low noise antenna signal strengths? N1UR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
