Re: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

2016-04-23 Thread Ken K6MR 
No it does not and that’s a good point. I’m pretty sure the vertical 800 feet 
away is not much of an issue, but the tower within 150’ could be a problem. The 
model is going to be difficult because there are four yagis on the tower.  Good 
project for a rainy day.
I have one other tower about 350’ away that also has multiple yagis but 
hopefully that also is far enough.

The other option is to move it to one of the other towers and change to 
horizontal polarization and up higher. N4IS seems to prefer that orientation. 
At the moment the performance is so poor that I’m thinking I did something 
wrong in the assembly.

Ken K6MR





From: Clive GM3POI
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 15:03
To: 'Ken K6MR'
Subject: RE: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

on Locked="
Ken, When you say the EZnec model looks great does that include the other 
towers.? If not include them and reassess.
73 Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: 23 April 2016 18:38
To: Bob K6UJ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

Let’s start here and see how it goes. If someone complains we’ll take it off 
line. Nothing like a public discussion to bring out the best ideas.  I changed 
the subject line so the discussion will make sense.

The 160 transmit vertical is about 800’ away. There is an 80’ tower with 
various higher band yagis on it about 150’ away.

My loop size is 12’ high, 10’ wide. 4’ between loops.  Vertical loops. The boom 
is 50’ high. The tower is near the house, but single story house so the boom is 
35’ above the roof.

The EZNec model looks great (of course). The gain models a bit low, but the RDF 
and gain test are in the right ranges. Right now the big problem is no 
directivity and it is actually noisier than the vertical. I have the adjustable 
gain pre-amp from DXE (KD9SV design) in the shack.

So that’s the background. Common mode problems would indeed be my first 
suspect.  Interested in how you handled it.

Ken K6MR

From: Bob K6UJ
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:00
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

rue" Name="index 1"/>  Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has 
> been a complete failure.
>
> Care to share the details?
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
> From: Bob K6UJ
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise
>
> Bill,
>
> Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !
>
> Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
> I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
> At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
> hardware on a power pole.
> It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller
> Flag for receive on 160 and it was very effective at nulling out the
> power pole noise.  I read all the rave reviews on the Pixel and
> thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
> also curious how it compared to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.
> The Pixel did provide a nice null from the power pole noise but not
> nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
> 160 DX from the band noise level
> it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
> I could hear DX stations with the
> flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving
> stations close to the noise level.
> The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
> lot and doesn't have the room for a larger receiving antenna like the
> Waller Flag.  It is a compromise receiving antenna but we have to work
> with what we have as far as room for antennas.
>
> 73,
> Bob
> K6UJ
>
>
>
> On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:
>>  I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is
>> an all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
>> BILL
>>
>> On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>>> Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
>>> the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
>>> hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
>>> he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Rob
>>> K5UJ
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:
 SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
 performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

 I'm out of this discussion.

 Regards

 JC


 In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off
 the sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
 would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
>>>

Topband: Waller Flag construction and performance

2016-04-23 Thread Ken K6MR 
Let’s start here and see how it goes. If someone complains we’ll take it off 
line. Nothing like a public discussion to bring out the best ideas.  I changed 
the subject line so the discussion will make sense.

The 160 transmit vertical is about 800’ away. There is an 80’ tower with 
various higher band yagis on it about 150’ away.

My loop size is 12’ high, 10’ wide. 4’ between loops.  Vertical loops. The boom 
is 50’ high. The tower is near the house, but single story house so the boom is 
35’ above the roof.

The EZNec model looks great (of course). The gain models a bit low, but the RDF 
and gain test are in the right ranges. Right now the big problem is no 
directivity and it is actually noisier than the vertical. I have the adjustable 
gain pre-amp from DXE (KD9SV design) in the shack.

So that’s the background. Common mode problems would indeed be my first 
suspect.  Interested in how you handled it.

Ken K6MR

From: Bob K6UJ
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:00
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

rue" Name="index 1"/>  Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has 
> been a complete failure.
>
> Care to share the details?
>
> Ken K6MR
>
>
>
> From: Bob K6UJ
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise
>
> Bill,
>
> Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !
>
> Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
> I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
> At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
> hardware on a power pole.
> It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag
> for receive on 160 and it
> was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the
> rave reviews on the Pixel and
> thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
> also curious how it compared
> to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice
> null from the power pole noise
> but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
> 160 DX from the band noise level
> it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
> I could hear DX stations with the
> flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations
> close to the noise level.
> The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
> lot and doesn't have the room
> for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise
> receiving antenna but we have
> to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.
>
> 73,
> Bob
> K6UJ
>
>
>
> On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:
>>  I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
>> all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
>> BILL
>>
>> On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>>> Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
>>> the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
>>> hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
>>> he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Rob
>>> K5UJ
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:
 SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
 performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

 I'm out of this discussion.

 Regards

 JC


 In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
 sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
 would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
 antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
 designed for use with the antenna.
 <<<
 _
 Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

>>> _
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>

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Re: Topband: [TowerTalk] Reverse feed system...

2016-04-23 Thread Gene Smar 
Doug:

 Wire-based antennas like the one you're proposing (and like the ones I
have off my tower) are cheap.  Build it and try it.  You can always reuse
the wire from the radials.

 As another suggestion, try radials of two different lengths to give you
two points of low SWR within the broad 75/80M band.


73 de
Gene Smar  AD3F



-Original Message-
From: TowerTalk [mailto:towertalk-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
Douglas Ruz / CO8DM
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 10:04 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: 'reflector Towertalk' 
Subject: [TowerTalk] Reverse feed system...

Hi,

 

I would like try the Reverse Feed System (N4KG antenna) on 80m.

 

I have a 50 ft GROUNDED tower (isolated from the guy wires) and similar size
of Rohn 25G.How much top loading I need If radials (4) are connected at 15
ft?...

 

I have an spiderbeam on top but this antenna does not add any LOAD because
all elements are isolated.Anyway, I have a 6m Yagi. 5 elem on a 15ft boom.
The 6m yagi has all elem connected to the boom but the driven. I can install
the 6m yagi on top of the tower about 4 ft below the spiderbeam.

 

Maybe I need a larger 6m yagi to obtain enough loading ?

 

Thoughts ?

 

Doug, CO8DM

 

 

___



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towert...@contesting.com
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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

2016-04-23 Thread ON4GPE 

Hi Bob and all,

I'm also interested in your experience on the waller flag.
i don't know what to build , a single loop (rotatable flag) witch is not 
so difficult of course or a waller flag.

So all info is welcome.

sorry for my english, my home language is dutch hihi

Gert
ON4GPE


Op 23/04/2016 om 20:00 schreef Bob K6UJ:

Hi Ken,

Be glad to.  It took me a while to get mine working, found some basic 
things I needed

to do and it now works very well.
First a question.  How far is your flag from the house and also
an antenna tower or other metal structures ?  I had to detune my tower 
it is only 40 feet away from
the Flag.  After this we can go over the construction of the Flag and 
its feed system issues like eliminating
common mode interference.  Maybe it would be best to discuss this 
directly rather than the reflector ?

I can be long winded.  hihi

Bob
K6UJ

On 4/23/16 10:42 AM, Ken K6MR wrote:
Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it 
has been a complete failure.


Care to share the details?

Ken K6MR



From: Bob K6UJ
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag
for receive on 160 and it
was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the
rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
also curious how it compared
to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice
null from the power pole noise
but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
160 DX from the band noise level
it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
I could hear DX stations with the
flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations
close to the noise level.
The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
lot and doesn't have the room
for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise
receiving antenna but we have
to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.

73,
Bob
K6UJ



On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:

 I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
BILL

On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:

SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

I'm out of this discussion.

Regards

JC


In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off 
the

sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special 
preamp

designed for use with the antenna.
<<<
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

2016-04-23 Thread Bob K6UJ 

Hi Ken,

Be glad to.  It took me a while to get mine working, found some basic 
things I needed

to do and it now works very well.
First a question.  How far is your flag from the house and also
an antenna tower or other metal structures ?  I had to detune my tower 
it is only 40 feet away from
the Flag.  After this we can go over the construction of the Flag and 
its feed system issues like eliminating
common mode interference.  Maybe it would be best to discuss this 
directly rather than the reflector ?

I can be long winded.  hihi

Bob
K6UJ

On 4/23/16 10:42 AM, Ken K6MR wrote:

Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has been 
a complete failure.

Care to share the details?

Ken K6MR



From: Bob K6UJ
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag
for receive on 160 and it
was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the
rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
also curious how it compared
to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice
null from the power pole noise
but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
160 DX from the band noise level
it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
I could hear DX stations with the
flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations
close to the noise level.
The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
lot and doesn't have the room
for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise
receiving antenna but we have
to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.

73,
Bob
K6UJ



On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:

 I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
BILL

On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:

SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

I'm out of this discussion.

Regards

JC


In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
designed for use with the antenna.
<<<
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

2016-04-23 Thread Ken K6MR 
Interesting comments about the WF. I recently built one and so far it has been 
a complete failure.

Care to share the details?

Ken K6MR



From: Bob K6UJ
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:30
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag
for receive on 160 and it
was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the
rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was
also curious how it compared
to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice
null from the power pole noise
but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating
160 DX from the band noise level
it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.
I could hear DX stations with the
flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations
close to the noise level.
The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small
lot and doesn't have the room
for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise
receiving antenna but we have
to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.

73,
Bob
K6UJ



On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:
>  I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
> all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
> BILL
>
> On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>> Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
>> the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
>> hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
>> he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Rob
>> K5UJ
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:
>>> SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
>>> performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.
>>>
>>> I'm out of this discussion.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> JC
>>>
>>>
>>> In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
>>> sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
>>> would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
>>> antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
>>> designed for use with the antenna.
>>> <<<
>>> _
>>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>>
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>

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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

2016-04-23 Thread Bob K6UJ 

Bill,

Sounds great !  hihihi  A lot cheaper than a Pixel too !

Until now I have kept my comments to myself about the Pixel.
I had a Pixel for a short time and sold it.
At the time I had electrical hash from one direction due to loose 
hardware on a power pole.
It took forever for our utility company to fix it.  I have a Waller Flag 
for receive on 160 and it
was very effective at nulling out the power pole noise.  I read all the 
rave reviews on the Pixel and
thought it would outperform the Flag for nulling out the noise and was 
also curious how it compared
to the flag on picking up 160 DX signals.  The Pixel did provide a nice 
null from the power pole noise
but not nearly as deep of a null as the Waller Flag.  On discriminating 
160 DX from the band noise level
it was very poor indeed.  The Waller Flag way out performed the Pixel.  
I could hear DX stations with the
flag and could not hear them at all on the pixel when receiving stations 
close to the noise level.
The Pixel would be suited for someone in an apartment or with a small 
lot and doesn't have the room
for a larger receiving antenna like the Waller Flag.  It is a compromise 
receiving antenna but we have

to work with what we have as far as room for antennas.

73,
Bob
K6UJ



On 4/23/16 9:45 AM, william radice wrote:

 I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an
all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
BILL

On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:

SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

I'm out of this discussion.

Regards

JC


In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
designed for use with the antenna.
<<<
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

2016-04-23 Thread william radice 
 I have an antenna of very similar design and performance. It is an 
all aluminum lawn chair on a pole.
BILL

On 4/22/2016 1:42 PM, Rob Atkinson wrote:
> Throw bricks all you want to the end of time but you'll never change
> the fact that we tested that antenna and saw its performance first
> hand; The preamp was designed by Jack Smith at CliftonLabs..I'm sure
> he'll enjoy reading your comments and get a good laugh.
>
> 73
>
> Rob
> K5UJ
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:26 AM, JC  wrote:
>> SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
>> performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.
>>
>> I'm out of this discussion.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> JC
>>
>>
>> In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
>> sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
>> would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
>> antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
>> designed for use with the antenna.
>> <<<
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

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