Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[Mirosław Paczocha]

Hi,

In my opinion, a high selectivity device at the front end will help
regarding noise and QRM only in case of  relatively poor IM3 receiver.

73, Mirek
SP5ENA

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Murphy
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 11:19 PM
To: k...@myfairpoint.net
Cc: Topband 
Subject: Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

This appears to be the 4O3A unit.  I hadn't realized these existed, so I'm
glad you posted the question:

http://www.4o3a.com/index.php/products/ham-radio-gear/crystal-front-end-unit
/

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:47 PM, K1FZ-Bruce  wrote:

>
> Thanks Mirko,
>
>
> Very Good information.   What is needed is to reduce noise more (lower)
> than signals.
> 73
> Bruce-k1fz
>
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:36:30 +0100, S57AD  wrote:
>
>   As far as I recall, Inrad sells front-end xtal filters. Some 25 
> years ago when I lived in Belgrade, at YU1EXY we had two six-pole 
> filters for SSB part of 40M band but I can't recall and difference 
> with or without those filters. Beside those two xtal filters we used 8 
> pole Cohn LC filter with 4-gang variable capacitor and with very step 
> curve (I think it was 600 or
> 800 Hz at -6 dB), which drastically reduced noise and QRM. We could 
> hear 3rd or even 4th layer of callers in 40m pile-ups.
>
> As for xtal front end filters, I think 4O3A produces such a filters to 
> be used at in-band stations, but didn't have chance to try & use them...
>
> 73, Mirko, S57AD
>
> 2016-12-22 21:57 GMT+01:00 K1FZ-Bruce :
>
> > Tim,
> >
> > My single crystal was in the 1950's.
> > A crystal lattice could take in much of the 160 meter band and be 
> > pratical.
> > Thanks for your input.
> > 73
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:49:12 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> >
> > Bruce - It has long been rumored that the big EU multi-multis have a 
> > crystal filter at their run frequency receivers. e.g. if they are
> running
> > on 7003.4, they have a crystal filter in front of their receiver for 
> > 7003.4. have never observed that in my visits but maybe in decades 
> > past, when receivers had less damage range, it would've made sense. 
> > Also a good reason to put up a fight for ownership of YOUR run 
> > frequency HI HI
> >
> > I believe EMRFD has a schematic for a single-frequency receiver, 
> > maybe not exactly like you described but similar in principle. Let 
> > me see if I can dig it up.
> > Tim N3QE
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
> >
> >
> > We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an
> antenna
> > we can usually hear better. We also know if we limit the noise from 
> > a receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we have a 
> > roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more 
> > noise in relationship to the wanted signals.
> > What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of 
> > the antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the
receiver.
> > Years ago I played around with a single crystal at the input of an 
> > old tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 
> > meters, on what seemed to be one frequency.
> > 73
> > Bruce-k1fz
> > http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
>
> - End forwarded message -
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Thanks for the information Stew.  Originally I tried it at my parents QTH on 40 
meters when I was teenager. Was licensed in 1950 as W1TJQ. 

 
Ideas get lost and time goes by.  In the 1920 Hugo Ginsburg ( not sure of his 
last name spelling)  in a book at the Belfast Library said silicon looked 
promising as a rectifier. It took to early 1950/ late 1940's for it to be 
re-discovered. 
 
Thanks again. 
 
73
Bruce-k1fz
 
 

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 01:51:50 + (UTC), GALE STEWARD via Topband  wrote:

  Years ago at the W3GM M/M station, Gerry had several crystal filters (50 
ohm Z input & output) in the 40M RX path. As I recall, these were about 20-30 
khz wide (each) and were of slightly different center frequencies so that most 
of the 40M CW band could be covered. 
I DO remember that they worked very well. I never saw one for 160. 
73, Stew K3ND

From: K1FZ-Bruce 
To: Topband  
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 3:41 PM
Subject: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

 
We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna we 
can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the noise from a receiver IF 
we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more noise  
in relationship to the wanted  signals. 
 
What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the antenna 
signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver. 
Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an old tube 
type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters, on what seemed 
to be one frequency. 
 
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
 
 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[Wes Stewart]

The SNR is set at the antenna. There is a persistent desire to move the 
selectivity closer to the antenna, however


With modern "bullet-proof" front ends, filtering can be delayed and done at 
i-f.  In fact, with H-mode mixer front ends, the IMD in the following filter can 
be more of a limit on signal handling than the mixer.  See: 
http://martein.home.xs4all.nl/pa3ake/hmode/roofer_intro.html


Imagine trying to build a multiplicity of such filters to cover the 160-meter 
band.

Wes  N7WS


On 12/22/2016 2:44 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:

Thanks Mirko,


Very Good information.   What is needed is to reduce noise lower than signals. 
73
Bruce-k1fz



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

One must remember that the purpose of these filters is to reduce the total
energy presented to circuitry that would otherwise be overloaded by it, or
create crud at any level because of the poor IMD characteristics of the
radio circuits.

I did something of the sort at W4BVV in the 1960's with tuned circuits in
front of the 40 meter RX to get rid of all the carrier energy at 7100 and
up.

These days with a K3 I can tune right under a 30 over 9 BC carrier and
listen to the way-down 60 Hz energy in their audio.

Are we back with these filters being used to provide a crutch for inferior
RX? Isn't a roofing filter the same thing, but effectively tuneable, except
for the first conversion stage. Isn't this high level bleed measured in the
standard tests you find on the Sherwood Engineering site?

The advantages being touted for the filters seem to be the same thing I
finally got when I bought a K3.

Limiting on frequency noise coming from the antenna with RX antenna pattern
is another thing altogether.

73, Guy K2AV

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 8:51 PM, GALE STEWARD via Topband <
topband@contesting.com> wrote:

> Years ago at the W3GM M/M station, Gerry had several crystal filters (50
> ohm Z input & output) in the 40M RX path. As I recall, these were about
> 20-30 khz wide (each) and were of slightly different center frequencies so
> that most of the 40M CW band could be covered.
> I DO remember that they worked very well. I never saw one for 160.
> 73, Stew K3ND
>
>   From: K1FZ-Bruce 
>  To: Topband 
>  Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 3:41 PM
>  Subject: Topband: "Thinking out loud"
>
>
>
> We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna
> we can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the noise from a
> receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
> have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more
> noise  in relationship to the wanted  signals.
>
> What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the
> antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver.
> Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an old
> tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters,
> on what seemed to be one frequency.
>
> 73
> Bruce-k1fz
> http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
>
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[GALE STEWARD via Topband]

Years ago at the W3GM M/M station, Gerry had several crystal filters (50 ohm Z 
input & output) in the 40M RX path. As I recall, these were about 20-30 khz 
wide (each) and were of slightly different center frequencies so that most of 
the 40M CW band could be covered.
I DO remember that they worked very well. I never saw one for 160.
73, Stew K3ND

  From: K1FZ-Bruce 
 To: Topband  
 Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 3:41 PM
 Subject: Topband: "Thinking out loud"
   

 
We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna we 
can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the noise from a receiver IF 
we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more noise  
in relationship to the wanted  signals. 
 
What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the antenna 
signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver. 
Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an old tube 
type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters, on what seemed 
to be one frequency. 
 
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
 
 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

   
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[JC]

Hi Bruce

"We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna we 
can usually hear better"

Agree, actually the directivity of the receiving antenna is the only place you 
can increase signal to noise ratio. More RDF means more directivity (3D) 
resulting  better signal to noise ratio.

All electronic devices add noise at output. No amplifier is perfect. Passive 
devices ahead of the preamplifier add noise impacting directly on the Noise 
Figure of the system.   2 db cable loss, 1.5 db  filter insertion loss add up 
to 3.5 db on the total Noise Figure.

Whatever you do adjusting the radio you are reducing degradation of the signal 
noise from the signal coming from the antenna, including adjusting the 
bandwidth of the receiver. 

Reducing RF gain reduce the degradation and the signal to noise ratio at the 
speaker is improved.

The issue with RDF or directivity is that we have many antennas on 160. The one 
we know, our TX antenna, and sometimes six or twelve other antennas fort 160m 
that we don’t know about it.

All these antennas interact with you receiving antenna and your ground at the 
station near the receiver. 

2 wave length on 160m is over 500ft. AM broadcast station detune cell phone 
towers miles away for the same reason.

Just because you can’t measure the deterioration of the patter of you beverage 
or any fixed receiving antenna, does not mean it is a working as it shows on 
the paper. EZNEC can simulate the interaction, you just need to all "all your 
160m antennas".

Antennas you don’t know you have for 160m.

1- That 120 ft of coax for your 6m Yagi
2- The triband feed line
3- Rotor cable 150ft with not a single ground, connected to your control box 
and right into the ground of your station combining from the AC line
4- The wiring in you r house.
5 -\,,,
6 ... and on and on and on.
7- elevated radials, ...
8- low dipoles with no choke!! 
...

Any 100Ft of wire is a very good vertical for 160m. If you live near a city the 
level of energy captured by this "antenna" is huge, and what we do with that? , 
we connected it to our station ground with a #14 wire ... at the station.   
Right next to the radio!!!

All these "antennas" as well the TX antenna must be detuned for 160, believe or 
not, it is the true for any vertical receiving antenna.

For vertical receiving antennas the reduction in noise is 12 to 24 db, for 
horizontal receiving antennas, it is 6 or 8 db. 

Narrow filter, like the one I use ahead of my preamplifier, 0.2db insertion 
loss and 40KHz BW does help to reduce reciprocal noise and unload the radio 
from the energy from outside the band. 

I visited several station during 2016, I found signals above +10 dBm coming 
from the TX antenna, and leaking everywhere into the radio.  That's a lot of RF 
energy.  10 mW.. of garbage..

Agree again with you about the narrow filter front end. 

Happy Holidays!

73
JC
N4IS





This concept is very important 
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of K1FZ-Bruce
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 3:42 PM
To: Topband 
Subject: Topband: "Thinking out loud"


 
We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna we 
can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the noise from a receiver IF 
we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we have a roofing filter earlier in 
the receiver we can eliminate even more noise  in relationship to the wanted  
signals. 
 
What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the antenna 
signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver. 
Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an old tube 
type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters, on what seemed 
to be one frequency. 
 
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
 
 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[Bill Cromwell]

Hi,

I wonder if you could cover the whole band or just the part that 
interest *you*. I have a radio now that uses an xtal filter with about a 
7 kHz bandwidth on the 20 meter band. Probably those filters can be made 
wider with perhaps less filtering action - tradeoffs ya know. The idea 
isn't new and it works!


Merry Christmas and...

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 12/22/2016 05:56 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:

Thanks Mirko and Matt,


This is not on the market yet, but should do a lot for noise on 160 
meters.


Bet a tube transmitter had  naysayers. Need  a spark to transmit. hi.
73
Bruce-k1fz


On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:18:56 -0600, Matt Murphy  wrote:

  This appears to be the 4O3A unit. I hadn't realized these 
existed, so I'm

glad you posted the question:

http://www.4o3a.com/index.php/products/ham-radio-gear/crystal-front-end-unit/ 



On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:47 PM, K1FZ-Bruce  wrote:



Thanks Mirko,


Very Good information. What is needed is to reduce noise more (lower)
than signals. 73
Bruce-k1fz


On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:36:30 +0100, S57AD wrote:

As far as I recall, Inrad sells front-end xtal filters. Some 25
years ago
when I lived in Belgrade, at YU1EXY we had two six-pole filters for SSB
part of 40M band but I can't recall and difference with or without those
filters. Beside those two xtal filters we used 8 pole Cohn LC filter 
with
4-gang variable capacitor and with very step curve (I think it was 
600 or

800 Hz at -6 dB), which drastically reduced noise and QRM. We could hear
3rd or even 4th layer of callers in 40m pile-ups.
As for xtal front end filters, I think 4O3A produces such a filters 
to be

used at in-band stations, but didn't have chance to try & use them...
73, Mirko, S57AD

2016-12-22 21:57 GMT+01:00 K1FZ-Bruce :

> Tim,
>
> My single crystal was in the 1950's. > A crystal lattice could take 
in much of the 160 meter band and be

> pratical. > Thanks for your input. > 73
> Bruce
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:49:12 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
> Bruce - It has long been rumored that the big EU multi-multis have
> a crystal filter at their run frequency receivers. e.g. if they are
running
> on 7003.4, they have a crystal filter in front of their receiver for
> 7003.4. have never observed that in my visits but maybe in decades 
past,
> when receivers had less damage range, it would've made sense. Also 
a good

> reason to put up a fight for ownership of YOUR run frequency HI HI
>
> I believe EMRFD has a schematic for a single-frequency receiver, maybe
> not exactly like you described but similar in principle. Let me see 
if I

> can dig it up. > Tim N3QE
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
>
>
> We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an
antenna
> we can usually hear better. We also know if we limit the noise from a
> receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
> have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even 
more
> noise in relationship to the wanted signals. > What if we take it a 
step further, could we limit the band-with of the
> antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the 
receiver. > Years ago I played around with a single crystal at the 
input of an old

> tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters,
> on what seemed to be one frequency. > 73
> Bruce-k1fz
> http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



- End forwarded message -

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


--
bark less - wag more

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Thanks Mirko and Matt,

 
This is not on the market yet, but should do a lot for noise on 160 meters.  
 
Bet a tube transmitter had  naysayers. Need  a spark to transmit. hi. 
 

73
Bruce-k1fz
 

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 16:18:56 -0600, Matt Murphy  wrote:

  This appears to be the 4O3A unit. I hadn't realized these 
existed, so I'm

glad you posted the question:

http://www.4o3a.com/index.php/products/ham-radio-gear/crystal-front-end-unit/

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:47 PM, K1FZ-Bruce  wrote:



Thanks Mirko,


Very Good information. What is needed is to reduce noise more (lower)
than signals. 
73

Bruce-k1fz


On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:36:30 +0100, S57AD wrote:

As far as I recall, Inrad sells front-end xtal filters. Some 25
years ago
when I lived in Belgrade, at YU1EXY we had two six-pole filters for SSB
part of 40M band but I can't recall and difference with or without those
filters. Beside those two xtal filters we used 8 pole Cohn LC filter with
4-gang variable capacitor and with very step curve (I think it was 600 or
800 Hz at -6 dB), which drastically reduced noise and QRM. We could hear
3rd or even 4th layer of callers in 40m pile-ups. 


As for xtal front end filters, I think 4O3A produces such a filters to be
used at in-band stations, but didn't have chance to try & use them... 


73, Mirko, S57AD

2016-12-22 21:57 GMT+01:00 K1FZ-Bruce :

> Tim,
>
> My single crystal was in the 1950's. 
> A crystal lattice could take in much of the 160 meter band and be
> pratical. 
> Thanks for your input. 
> 73

> Bruce
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:49:12 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
> Bruce - It has long been rumored that the big EU multi-multis have
> a crystal filter at their run frequency receivers. e.g. if they are
running
> on 7003.4, they have a crystal filter in front of their receiver for
> 7003.4. have never observed that in my visits but maybe in decades past,
> when receivers had less damage range, it would've made sense. Also a good
> reason to put up a fight for ownership of YOUR run frequency HI HI
>
> I believe EMRFD has a schematic for a single-frequency receiver, maybe
> not exactly like you described but similar in principle. Let me see if I
> can dig it up. 
> Tim N3QE

>
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
>
>
> We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an
antenna
> we can usually hear better. We also know if we limit the noise from a
> receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
> have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more
> noise in relationship to the wanted signals. 
> What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the
> antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver. 
> Years ago I played around with a single crystal at the input of an old

> tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters,
> on what seemed to be one frequency. 
> 73

> Bruce-k1fz
> http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



- End forwarded message -

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[Matt Murphy]

This appears to be the 4O3A unit.  I hadn't realized these existed, so I'm
glad you posted the question:

http://www.4o3a.com/index.php/products/ham-radio-gear/crystal-front-end-unit/

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:47 PM, K1FZ-Bruce  wrote:

>
> Thanks Mirko,
>
>
> Very Good information.   What is needed is to reduce noise more (lower)
> than signals.
> 73
> Bruce-k1fz
>
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:36:30 +0100, S57AD  wrote:
>
>   As far as I recall, Inrad sells front-end xtal filters. Some 25
> years ago
> when I lived in Belgrade, at YU1EXY we had two six-pole filters for SSB
> part of 40M band but I can't recall and difference with or without those
> filters. Beside those two xtal filters we used 8 pole Cohn LC filter with
> 4-gang variable capacitor and with very step curve (I think it was 600 or
> 800 Hz at -6 dB), which drastically reduced noise and QRM. We could hear
> 3rd or even 4th layer of callers in 40m pile-ups.
>
> As for xtal front end filters, I think 4O3A produces such a filters to be
> used at in-band stations, but didn't have chance to try & use them...
>
> 73, Mirko, S57AD
>
> 2016-12-22 21:57 GMT+01:00 K1FZ-Bruce :
>
> > Tim,
> >
> > My single crystal was in the 1950's.
> > A crystal lattice could take in much of the 160 meter band and be
> > pratical.
> > Thanks for your input.
> > 73
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:49:12 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> >
> > Bruce - It has long been rumored that the big EU multi-multis have
> > a crystal filter at their run frequency receivers. e.g. if they are
> running
> > on 7003.4, they have a crystal filter in front of their receiver for
> > 7003.4. have never observed that in my visits but maybe in decades past,
> > when receivers had less damage range, it would've made sense. Also a good
> > reason to put up a fight for ownership of YOUR run frequency HI HI
> >
> > I believe EMRFD has a schematic for a single-frequency receiver, maybe
> > not exactly like you described but similar in principle. Let me see if I
> > can dig it up.
> > Tim N3QE
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
> >
> >
> > We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an
> antenna
> > we can usually hear better. We also know if we limit the noise from a
> > receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
> > have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more
> > noise in relationship to the wanted signals.
> > What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the
> > antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver.
> > Years ago I played around with a single crystal at the input of an old
> > tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters,
> > on what seemed to be one frequency.
> > 73
> > Bruce-k1fz
> > http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
>
> - End forwarded message -
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Thanks Mirko,

 
Very Good information.   What is needed is to reduce noise more (lower) than 
signals. 
73
Bruce-k1fz
 

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:36:30 +0100, S57AD  wrote:

  As far as I recall, Inrad sells front-end xtal filters. Some 25 years ago
when I lived in Belgrade, at YU1EXY we had two six-pole filters for SSB
part of 40M band but I can't recall and difference with or without those
filters. Beside those two xtal filters we used 8 pole Cohn LC filter with
4-gang variable capacitor and with very step curve (I think it was 600 or
800 Hz at -6 dB), which drastically reduced noise and QRM. We could hear
3rd or even 4th layer of callers in 40m pile-ups. 

As for xtal front end filters, I think 4O3A produces such a filters to be
used at in-band stations, but didn't have chance to try & use them... 

73, Mirko, S57AD

2016-12-22 21:57 GMT+01:00 K1FZ-Bruce :

> Tim,
>
> My single crystal was in the 1950's. 
> A crystal lattice could take in much of the 160 meter band and be
> pratical. 
> Thanks for your input. 
> 73
> Bruce
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:49:12 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>
> Bruce - It has long been rumored that the big EU multi-multis have
> a crystal filter at their run frequency receivers. e.g. if they are running
> on 7003.4, they have a crystal filter in front of their receiver for
> 7003.4. have never observed that in my visits but maybe in decades past,
> when receivers had less damage range, it would've made sense. Also a good
> reason to put up a fight for ownership of YOUR run frequency HI HI
>
> I believe EMRFD has a schematic for a single-frequency receiver, maybe
> not exactly like you described but similar in principle. Let me see if I
> can dig it up. 
> Tim N3QE
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
>
>
> We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna
> we can usually hear better. We also know if we limit the noise from a
> receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
> have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more
> noise in relationship to the wanted signals. 
> What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the
> antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver. 
> Years ago I played around with a single crystal at the input of an old
> tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters,
> on what seemed to be one frequency. 
> 73
> Bruce-k1fz
> http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

 

- End forwarded message -

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Thanks Mirko,

 
Very Good information.   What is needed is to reduce noise lower than signals. 
73

Bruce-k1fz
 

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 22:36:30 +0100, S57AD  wrote:

  As far as I recall, Inrad sells front-end xtal filters. Some 25 
years ago

when I lived in Belgrade, at YU1EXY we had two six-pole filters for SSB
part of 40M band but I can't recall and difference with or without those
filters. Beside those two xtal filters we used 8 pole Cohn LC filter with
4-gang variable capacitor and with very step curve (I think it was 600 or
800 Hz at -6 dB), which drastically reduced noise and QRM. We could hear
3rd or even 4th layer of callers in 40m pile-ups. 


As for xtal front end filters, I think 4O3A produces such a filters to be
used at in-band stations, but didn't have chance to try & use them... 


73, Mirko, S57AD

2016-12-22 21:57 GMT+01:00 K1FZ-Bruce :


Tim,

My single crystal was in the 1950's. 
A crystal lattice could take in much of the 160 meter band and be
pratical. 
Thanks for your input. 
73

Bruce

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:49:12 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote:

Bruce - It has long been rumored that the big EU multi-multis have
a crystal filter at their run frequency receivers. e.g. if they are running
on 7003.4, they have a crystal filter in front of their receiver for
7003.4. have never observed that in my visits but maybe in decades past,
when receivers had less damage range, it would've made sense. Also a good
reason to put up a fight for ownership of YOUR run frequency HI HI

I believe EMRFD has a schematic for a single-frequency receiver, maybe
not exactly like you described but similar in principle. Let me see if I
can dig it up. 
Tim N3QE



On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:


We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna
we can usually hear better. We also know if we limit the noise from a
receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more
noise in relationship to the wanted signals. 
What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the
antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver. 
Years ago I played around with a single crystal at the input of an old

tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters,
on what seemed to be one frequency. 
73

Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



--
Mirko S57AD
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[S57AD]

As far as I recall, Inrad sells front-end xtal filters.  Some 25 years ago
when I lived in Belgrade, at YU1EXY we had two six-pole filters for  SSB
part of 40M band but I can't recall and difference with or without those
filters. Beside those two xtal filters we used 8 pole Cohn LC filter with
4-gang variable capacitor and with very step curve (I think it was 600 or
800 Hz at -6 dB), which drastically reduced noise and QRM. We could hear
3rd or even 4th layer of callers in 40m pile-ups.

As for xtal front end filters, I think 4O3A produces such a filters to be
used at in-band stations, but didn't have chance to try & use them...

73, Mirko, S57AD

2016-12-22 21:57 GMT+01:00 K1FZ-Bruce :

> Tim,
>
> My single crystal was in the 1950's.
> A crystal lattice could take in much of the 160 meter band and be
> pratical.
> Thanks for your input.
> 73
> Bruce
>
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:49:12 -0500, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
>
>   Bruce -  It has long been rumored that the big EU multi-multis have
> a crystal filter at their run frequency receivers. e.g. if they are running
> on 7003.4, they have a crystal filter in front of their receiver for
> 7003.4.  have never observed that in my visits but maybe in decades past,
> when receivers had less damage range, it would've made sense.  Also a good
> reason to put up a fight for ownership of YOUR run frequency  HI HI
>
>   I believe EMRFD has a schematic for a single-frequency receiver, maybe
> not exactly like you described but similar in principle. Let me see if I
> can dig it up.
> Tim N3QE
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce  wrote:
>
>
> We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna
> we can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the noise from a
> receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
> have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more
> noise  in relationship to the wanted  signals.
> What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the
> antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver.
> Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an old
> tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters,
> on what seemed to be one frequency.
> 73
> Bruce-k1fz
> http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
>
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>



-- 
Mirko S57AD
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[K1FZ-Bruce]

 
160 meters is above the broadcast band. 3rd order should be above 160, 
not lower. 
lattice filters, many near 9 MHZ. for single sideband transceivers,  
are used successfully. 
Could take out more noise, than adding. 
 
All the arguments against this could also be used against roofing filters. 
 

73
Bruce
 
 
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 12:56:21 -0800, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:

  Crystal filters are known to have a 3rd order intercept
point. Depending on how many AM BCB stations impinge
on your filter, you could get intermods. Switching
in an attenuator ahead of the filter should help,
if you can stand the increase in noise figure. 


Rick N6RK

On 12/22/2016 12:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:



We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an 
antenna we can usually hear better. We also know if we limit the 
noise from a receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even 
more noise in relationship to the wanted signals. 

What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of 
the antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the 
receiver. 
Years ago I played around with a single crystal at the input of an 
old tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 
meters, on what seemed to be one frequency. 


73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[K1FZ-Bruce]

Tim,
 
My single crystal was in the 1950's. 
 
A crystal lattice could take in much of the 160 meter band and be pratical. 
 
Thanks for your input. 
 

73
Bruce

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 15:49:12 -0500, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

  Bruce -  It has long been rumored that the big EU multi-multis 
have a crystal filter at their run frequency receivers. e.g. if they 
are running on 7003.4, they have a crystal filter in front of their 
receiver for 7003.4.  have never observed that in my visits but maybe 
in decades past, when receivers had less damage range, it would've made 
sense.  Also a good reason to put up a fight for ownership of YOUR run 
frequency  HI HI

 
  I believe EMRFD has a schematic for a single-frequency receiver, 
maybe not exactly like you described but similar in principle. Let me 
see if I can dig it up. 
 

Tim N3QE

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce  wrote:

 
We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an 
antenna we can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the 
noise from a receiver IF we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even 
more noise  in relationship to the wanted  signals. 
 
What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the 
antenna signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the 
receiver. 
Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an 
old tube type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 
meters, on what seemed to be one frequency. 
 

73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
 
 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

Crystal filters are known to have a 3rd order intercept
point.  Depending on how many AM BCB stations impinge
on your filter, you could get intermods.  Switching
in an attenuator ahead of the filter should help,
if you can stand the increase in noise figure.

Rick N6RK

On 12/22/2016 12:41 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:



We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna we 
can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the noise from a receiver IF 
we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more noise  
in relationship to the wanted  signals.

What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the antenna 
signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver.
Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an old tube 
type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters, on what seemed 
to be one frequency.

73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[K1FZ-Bruce]

 
We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna we 
can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the noise from a receiver IF 
we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we
have a roofing filter earlier in the receiver we can eliminate even more noise  
in relationship to the wanted  signals. 
 
What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the antenna 
signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver. 
Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an old tube 
type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters, on what seemed 
to be one frequency. 
 
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
 
 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: RTTY Beacon 1790 KHZ

[Doug Grant]

N8HEE wrote:

Heard WH2XDE/3 RTTY beacon this morning at 0950Z on 1790.9 KHZ ? Message
was QSL via K2ORS@Verizon .net Also gave QTH and grid square of Wayland,MA

Anybody have info on this operation ?
---

The FCC database shows an experimental license with that callsign
issued to Kestrel
Electronic Design LLC, mailing address:

Gerald T. Whitney
2083 Stirnie RD
Victor NY
email: ked2...@gmail.com

There is a Gerald Whitney at that address in Victor, NY listed on QRZ.COM
as KG2BK.

The license is for 1.7200-1.800 MHz, 5 kW ERP, several emission types,
including voice, on-off keying, and digital voice, and four locations, one
of which is indeed in Wayland, MA (157 Plain Road).

The Wayland, MA address is the same as the current holder of K2ORS and his
QRZ.COM page shows that he also holds some experimental licenses for long
and medium-wave work.

There are numerous hits for WH2XDE on Google, including a photo of a QSL
card sent to a listener in Spain.

Other Google hits include posts to various SWL-type forums.

73,

Doug K1DG
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: RTTY Beacon 1790 KHZ

[S57AD]

Isn't 1790,9 kHz a second (down) harmonic of 3581,8 kHz?

73,  Mirko, S57AD

2016-12-22 18:03 GMT+01:00 Joe Giacobello, K2XX via Topband <
topband@contesting.com>:

> No information, but, FWIW, K2ORS used to be Jean Shepherd of WOR and
> Limelight fame.
>
> 73, Joe
> K2XX
>
> Joe Galicic 
>> Thursday, December 22, 2016 4:52 AM
>> Heard WH2XDE/3 RTTY beacon this morning at 0950Z on 1790.9 KHZ ? Message
>> was QSL via K2ORS@Verizon .net Also gave QTH and grid square of
>> Wayland,MA
>>
>> Anybody have info on this operation ?
>>
>> Joe
>> N3HEE
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
>>
>> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>



-- 
Mirko S57AD
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: RTTY Beacon 1790 KHZ

[Tim Shoppa]

Joe and I have faintly heard some sort of non-ARRL 160M voice bulletin on 
weekends. I remember being told it was in NJ or NY and it was a continuation of 
some Jean Shepherd tradition. Anyone recognize this low power 160M voice 
bulletin I'm talking about?

Tim N3QE

Sent from my VAX-11/780

> On Dec 22, 2016, at 12:03 PM, Joe Giacobello, K2XX via Topband 
>  wrote:
> 
> No information, but, FWIW, K2ORS used to be Jean Shepherd of WOR and 
> Limelight fame.
> 
> 73, Joe
> K2XX
> 
>> Joe Galicic 
>> Thursday, December 22, 2016 4:52 AM
>> Heard WH2XDE/3 RTTY beacon this morning at 0950Z on 1790.9 KHZ ? Message was 
>> QSL via K2ORS@Verizon .net Also gave QTH and grid square of Wayland,MA
>> 
>> Anybody have info on this operation ?
>> 
>> Joe
>> N3HEE
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>> 
>> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: RTTY Beacon 1790 KHZ

[Joe Giacobello, K2XX via Topband]

No information, but, FWIW, K2ORS used to be Jean Shepherd of WOR and 
Limelight fame.


73, Joe
K2XX


Joe Galicic 
Thursday, December 22, 2016 4:52 AM
Heard WH2XDE/3 RTTY beacon this morning at 0950Z on 1790.9 KHZ ? 
Message was QSL via K2ORS@Verizon .net Also gave QTH and grid square 
of Wayland,MA


Anybody have info on this operation ?

Joe
N3HEE
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: RTTY Beacon 1790 KHZ

[Joe Galicic]

Heard WH2XDE/3 RTTY beacon this morning at 0950Z on 1790.9 KHZ ? Message was 
QSL via K2ORS@Verizon .net Also gave QTH and grid square of Wayland,MA 

Anybody have info on this operation ? 

Joe 
N3HEE 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband