Re: Topband: Inverted L successes

[Wes Stewart]

As the real estate people say, "Location, location, location."

Wes  N7WS

On 8/28/2017 3:22 PM, jayb1...@optonline.net wrote:

Last fall I installed an “S-9” 43 ft vertical, added a tapped loading coil
at the base, with 10 on-the-ground radials about 100 ft long randomly run
all over my 60x90 house plot.  Rig is 300 watts - Started on 160 DXCC with
32 entities, finished DXCC in one winter season.
My secret: JT65   (tnx K1JT)
  Try anything – you will be amazed how successful you can be on top-band
with a little patience and VERY modest antennas.   73, Jay NY2NY
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Re: Topband: 160 4 SQUARE

[Mike - W5JR]

And I had a great time in the winter TBDXC a couple of years ago QRP using the 
antennas at Mike's 160 farm. The TX array works very good. 

tnx
Mike / W5JR
Alpharetta GA

> On Aug 28, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Mike Greenway  wrote:
> 
> Greg, N4CC,, I have been using something similar to what you are describing 
> for about 10 years.  I have 140 ft of Rohn 25 with all Phillystrand guys.  
> The 4 verticals are supported by nylon cords running from the top of the 
> tower.  The height of the tower allows me to have 90 ft verticals plus around 
> 45 ft top hats at the proper spacing between verticals.  I am using a Comtek 
> phasing box. At present around 40  135 ft radials on each vertical.  I never 
> detuned the tower as the F/B and F/S have always been excellent so I did not 
> see the need.  I did look into it but decided to leave as it was. It has been 
> a very competitive transmit system. If you need any further details contact 
> me.  73 Mike K4PI
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
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Re: Topband: Inverted L successes

[GaryK9GS]

I suspect that your success is largely due to your location on Long Island. 

73,
Gary K9GS
 Original message From: jayb1...@optonline.net Date: 8/28/17  
5:22 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Doug Ellmore , 
topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Inverted L successes 
Last fall I installed an “S-9” 43 ft vertical, added a tapped loading coil 
at the base, with 10 on-the-ground radials about 100 ft long randomly run 
all over my 60x90 house plot.  Rig is 300 watts - Started on 160 DXCC with 
32 entities, finished DXCC in one winter season.
My secret: JT65   (tnx K1JT)
 Try anything – you will be amazed how successful you can be on top-band 
with a little patience and VERY modest antennas.   73, Jay NY2NY 
_
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Re: Topband: 160 4 square

[John Harden, D.M.D]

I am fortunate in that I have a Hi-Z 8 and a Waller Flag on a 32 foot boom at 
95 feet. I use them in Diversity Receive with  K-3. The results has been 
excellent here in Atlanta using a 100 ft 45G shunt fed tower for TX.

73,

John, W4NU
Atlanta

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 28, 2017, at 4:50 PM, JC  wrote:
> 
> Hi Lee
> 
> 
> 
> I remember it very well, but my comparison with the 8 circle is compatible 
> with the RDF, the WF has 11.5 db and the 8 circle can be close to 13 db RDF 
> and it is a winner, that 1.5 db EDF does make a difference, based on  my 
> measurements, the improvement on signal to noise ratio could be 3 to 6 db 
> improvement. 
> 
> 
> 
> We slowly have more stations in land. Like K9CT( Illinois) and K9UWA 
> (Indiana), then we have Pennsylvania K3LR and WE3C, Wal in West Virginia 
> W8LRL and John W4UN in Georgia. The performance on 80m has being very solid 
> on all of them, on 160m very similar as well. I agree with you, there are 
> lots of things to learn about horizontal propagation on top band, every year 
> is somehow different. Beverages have been around for almost a century but the 
> WF for  only a decade and only one year and half on central states, nothing 
> in West coast yet.
> 
> My experience following several WF installations, is that depends on the 
> number of vertical structures on the site, some stations have difficult to 
> try to detune all towers. One point is common, good ground system is a must 
> and does help to keep common mode noise low.
> 
> 
> 
> The last six month has been quite difficult for me, but things are getting 
> back to normal. Bod will get his antennas very soon.  Family, Work and Radio  
> but health was been some complex with my vertigo problem.   I am really way 
> behind schedule here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 73’s
> 
> JC
> 
> N4IS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Lee STRAHAN [mailto:k7...@msn.com] 
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:46 PM
> To: n...@yahoo.com; JC ; 'GaryK9GS' ; 
> 'Greg' ; 'topband' 
> Subject: RE: Topband: 160 4 square
> 
> 
> 
>   Good morning all,
> 
>  What I can tell you about the two antennas for 160 meter receiving is 
> that as many have said before, you cannot have too many receiving antennas 
> for 160 meters. Before Dale N4NN became ill and passed, Dale and I maintained 
> near daily contact. Dale had the Hi-Z 8 element with very little local noise. 
> We always quietly compared his station with what you were reporting JC. As 
> near as I could tell in the Florida area the two antennas were very close to 
> each other. Most often both antennas would hear the same signals. 
> 
>  There are a couple more contest stations that actually have both a 
> horizontal Waller flag and a Hi-Z 4-8pro or 8A 8 circle. In one case the 
> verticals are the preferred and in the other the word is you need both 
> antennas. My opinion, I think it depends quite a bit on station location. 
> That is, I think on stations near the ocean coasts the horizontal Waller flag 
> hears very well. Again, my opinion but I don’t think it works as well in the 
> mid lands or receiving over long stretches of land. Eventually we will have 
> enough history to really know for sure if one or the other is better. Again, 
> there is likely advantages to either one at different times or locations. 
> Suffice to say there is lots left to be learned
> 
>In that regard, some stations have reported the Hi-Z full sized 8 circle 
> to not quite have enough sensitivity in really quiet background noise areas. 
> I have developed a means to reduce the noise figure of that array very 
> significantly and the first beta test users are reporting a definite 
> improvement to the standard Hi-Z 200 foot 8 circle on 160 meters for those 
> fortunate enough to have a really quiet location.
> 
> Lee   K7TJR
> 
> 
> 
> From: Bob Kupps [mailto:n...@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 5:58 AM
> To: JC  >; 'Lee STRAHAN' 
>  >; 'GaryK9GS'   >; 'Greg'   >; 'topband'   >
> Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square
> 
> 
> 
> Well I ordered one about half a year ago so if it ever comes I will be able 
> to compare it directly with my HiZ 8 circle array and get a definitive 
> answer. We have no local noise here only propagated tropical QRN.
> 
> 
> 
> 73 Bob HS0ZIA
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

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Re: Topband: Inverted L successes

[JAYB1943]

Last fall I installed an “S-9” 43 ft vertical, added a tapped loading coil 
at the base, with 10 on-the-ground radials about 100 ft long randomly run 
all over my 60x90 house plot.  Rig is 300 watts - Started on 160 DXCC with 
32 entities, finished DXCC in one winter season.
My secret: JT65   (tnx K1JT)
 Try anything – you will be amazed how successful you can be on top-band 
with a little patience and VERY modest antennas.   73, Jay NY2NY 
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: 160 4 SQUARE

[Mike Greenway]

Greg, N4CC,, I have been using something similar to what you are describing for 
about 10 years.  I have 140 ft of Rohn 25 with all Phillystrand guys.  The 4 
verticals are supported by nylon cords running from the top of the tower.  The 
height of the tower allows me to have 90 ft verticals plus around 45 ft top 
hats at the proper spacing between verticals.  I am using a Comtek phasing box. 
At present around 40  135 ft radials on each vertical.  I never detuned the 
tower as the F/B and F/S have always been excellent so I did not see the need.  
I did look into it but decided to leave as it was. It has been a very 
competitive transmit system. If you need any further details contact me.  73 
Mike K4PI
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: DX Engineering final field test of the 3Y0Z Bouvet 160 metres vertical

[w2wg]

Sentiment from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

-Original Message-_-thefirsttotototo

From: k...@k3lr.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: 
Sent: 2017-08-28 4:39:34 PM 
Subject: Topband: DX Engineering final field test of the 3Y0Z Bouvet 160 meter 
vertical

The DX Engineering and Bouvet Island teams have worked together to design an
efficient 90 foot top loaded 160 meter vertical antenna that can be
installed quickly and safely on Bouvet Island by the 3Y0Z team this January.

With a good radial system the difference in gain between a 120 ft (full
quarter wavelength) vertical and this custom 90 foot top loaded vertical is
less than 0.5 dB.

This vertical uses a custom designed heavy duty hinged pivot base with base
insulators to accommodate a 40 foot falling derrick 3 inch heavy duty pipe
for installation.

The vertical is base fed using two inductors to match to 50 ohms. The first
70 feet of the vertical is Universal Aluminum tower (12 inch face) and the
top 20 feet is 1.875 inch diameter aluminum tubing.

There are guys at 30, 50 and 70 feet. There are also three 30 foot top
loading wires attached to the top of the tubing that are tied to anchors 60
feet out from the base.

DXE is actually donating two of these vertical packages to the 3Y0Z team in
case one gets damaged (there are 300 storms per year on Bouvet).

More details on the construction and the final test raising plus VSWR
measurements are shown in the video filmed and produced (in 4K Ultra) by
Greg, W8WWV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSw-0TjaUiU

73,
Tim K3LR


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Re: Topband: DX Engineering final field test of the 3Y0Z Bouvet 160 meter vertical

[MU 4CX250B]

Wow, I want one!  Nice job, Tim!
Jim w8zr

Sent from my iPad
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSw-0TjaUiU
>
> 73,
> Tim K3LR
>
>
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Re: Topband: 160 4 square

[JC]

Hi Lee

 

I remember it very well, but my comparison with the 8 circle is compatible with 
the RDF, the WF has 11.5 db and the 8 circle can be close to 13 db RDF and it 
is a winner, that 1.5 db EDF does make a difference, based on  my measurements, 
the improvement on signal to noise ratio could be 3 to 6 db improvement. 

 

We slowly have more stations in land. Like K9CT( Illinois) and K9UWA (Indiana), 
then we have Pennsylvania K3LR and WE3C, Wal in West Virginia W8LRL and John 
W4UN in Georgia. The performance on 80m has being very solid on all of them, on 
160m very similar as well. I agree with you, there are lots of things to learn 
about horizontal propagation on top band, every year is somehow different. 
Beverages have been around for almost a century but the WF for  only a decade 
and only one year and half on central states, nothing in West coast yet.

My experience following several WF installations, is that depends on the number 
of vertical structures on the site, some stations have difficult to try to 
detune all towers. One point is common, good ground system is a must and does 
help to keep common mode noise low.

 

The last six month has been quite difficult for me, but things are getting back 
to normal. Bod will get his antennas very soon.  Family, Work and Radio  but 
health was been some complex with my vertigo problem.   I am really way behind 
schedule here.

 

 

73’s

JC

N4IS

 

 

From: Lee STRAHAN [mailto:k7...@msn.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:46 PM
To: n...@yahoo.com; JC ; 'GaryK9GS' ; 
'Greg' ; 'topband' 
Subject: RE: Topband: 160 4 square

 

   Good morning all,

  What I can tell you about the two antennas for 160 meter receiving is 
that as many have said before, you cannot have too many receiving antennas for 
160 meters. Before Dale N4NN became ill and passed, Dale and I maintained near 
daily contact. Dale had the Hi-Z 8 element with very little local noise. We 
always quietly compared his station with what you were reporting JC. As near as 
I could tell in the Florida area the two antennas were very close to each 
other. Most often both antennas would hear the same signals. 

  There are a couple more contest stations that actually have both a horizontal 
Waller flag and a Hi-Z 4-8pro or 8A 8 circle. In one case the verticals are the 
preferred and in the other the word is you need both antennas. My opinion, I 
think it depends quite a bit on station location. That is, I think on stations 
near the ocean coasts the horizontal Waller flag hears very well. Again, my 
opinion but I don’t think it works as well in the mid lands or receiving over 
long stretches of land. Eventually we will have enough history to really know 
for sure if one or the other is better. Again, there is likely advantages to 
either one at different times or locations. Suffice to say there is lots left 
to be learned

In that regard, some stations have reported the Hi-Z full sized 8 circle to 
not quite have enough sensitivity in really quiet background noise areas. I 
have developed a means to reduce the noise figure of that array very 
significantly and the first beta test users are reporting a definite 
improvement to the standard Hi-Z 200 foot 8 circle on 160 meters for those 
fortunate enough to have a really quiet location.

Lee   K7TJR

 

From: Bob Kupps [mailto:n...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 5:58 AM
To: JC  >; 'Lee STRAHAN' 
 >; 'GaryK9GS'  >; 'Greg'  >; 'topband'  >
Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square

 

Well I ordered one about half a year ago so if it ever comes I will be able to 
compare it directly with my HiZ 8 circle array and get a definitive answer. We 
have no local noise here only propagated tropical QRN.

 

73 Bob HS0ZIA

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: DX Engineering final field test of the 3Y0Z Bouvet 160 meter vertical

[Tim Duffy]

The DX Engineering and Bouvet Island teams have worked together to design an
efficient 90 foot top loaded 160 meter vertical antenna that can be
installed quickly and safely on Bouvet Island by the 3Y0Z team this January.

With a good radial system the difference in gain between a 120 ft (full
quarter wavelength) vertical and this custom 90 foot top loaded vertical is
less than 0.5 dB.

This vertical uses a custom designed heavy duty hinged pivot base with base
insulators to accommodate a 40 foot falling derrick 3 inch heavy duty pipe
for installation.

The vertical is base fed using two inductors to match to 50 ohms. The first
70 feet of the vertical is Universal Aluminum tower (12 inch face) and the
top 20 feet is 1.875 inch diameter aluminum tubing.

There are guys at 30, 50 and 70 feet. There are also three 30 foot top
loading wires attached to the top of the tubing that are tied to anchors 60
feet out from the base.

DXE is actually donating two of these vertical packages to the 3Y0Z team in
case one gets damaged (there are 300 storms per year on Bouvet).

More details on the construction and the final test raising plus VSWR
measurements are shown in the video filmed and produced (in 4K Ultra) by
Greg, W8WWV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSw-0TjaUiU

73,
Tim K3LR


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

[Stan Stockton]

In my opinion there wouldn't be a noticeable difference if you removed what you 
already have assuming you have a reasonably good radial system.

Stan, K5GO

> On Aug 28, 2017, at 1:14 PM, N2TK, Tony  wrote:
> 
> Question on the choke balun. I am using a Comtek 100 bead over RG-400
> feedline choke on my shunt fed tower. Would there be a noticeable difference
> by replacing with a stack of ferrite cores and several turns of coax?
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike
> Waters
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:11 PM
> To: Mike Furrey 
> Cc: gary mankoff ; topband 
> Subject: Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna
> 
> The importance of a ferrite choke balun at the feedpoint cannot be
> overemphasized. A good design for 160m is 5 or 6 turns of coax wound through
> five stacked 2.4" 31-material ferrite toroids. Photos and details on my web
> pages referenced earlier.
> 
> I had two elevated radials. It is a well-established fact that four 10' or
> 12' high 1/4 wave radials are as good as 120 on the ground.
> 
> 73 Mike
> www.w0btu.com
> 
> On Aug 27, 2017 12:53 PM, "Mike Furrey"  wrote:
> 
> Hi Gary,
> For many years I used an inverted L between two tall pine trees and one
> elevated radial that was L shaped to fit on the 90' x 60' lot I had in
> Spring, TX. The radial was about 15' up and it was fed through a choke
> balun.
> _
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> 
> _
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Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

[N2TK, Tony]

Question on the choke balun. I am using a Comtek 100 bead over RG-400
feedline choke on my shunt fed tower. Would there be a noticeable difference
by replacing with a stack of ferrite cores and several turns of coax?
73,
N2TK, Tony

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Waters
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 3:11 PM
To: Mike Furrey 
Cc: gary mankoff ; topband 
Subject: Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

The importance of a ferrite choke balun at the feedpoint cannot be
overemphasized. A good design for 160m is 5 or 6 turns of coax wound through
five stacked 2.4" 31-material ferrite toroids. Photos and details on my web
pages referenced earlier.

I had two elevated radials. It is a well-established fact that four 10' or
12' high 1/4 wave radials are as good as 120 on the ground.

73 Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Aug 27, 2017 12:53 PM, "Mike Furrey"  wrote:

Hi Gary,
For many years I used an inverted L between two tall pine trees and one
elevated radial that was L shaped to fit on the 90' x 60' lot I had in
Spring, TX. The radial was about 15' up and it was fed through a choke
balun.
_
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Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 176, Issue 12

[Pete Rimmel N8PR]

I guess it depends on what you want to do on 160.

Rag chew with the locals -- put up an NVIS low dipole

Work the rare DX -- put up a 4 square of 1/4 wave verticals with 32 to 120 
radials under each one and then buy a 200 ft. tower and put up a Waller Flag 
for receive.  (or if you have 100 acres put up 8 pairs of 1000 foot 
beverages in 8 directions)


Realistically,  116 Ft of Rohn 25 with 32 radials under it for transmit and 
a Waller Flag for receive on top of that.


73 and see you on TB

PeteR  N8PR


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge 
Diez (CX6VM-CW5W)

Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 12:32 PM
To: gary mankoff
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

Hi Gary

Congratulations!

Best or what people are using?

For best maybe you can take a look at VY2ZM antennas :-)

What people are using, maybe and inv L, vertical with lot of radials, 1/2 wl 
sloper


I had big success with 1/2 wl sloper

Good luck!

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

Enviado desde mi iPhone


El 27 ago. 2017, a las 13:07, gary mankoff  escribi?:

Hi everyone
I finally have some land to do a 160 meter antenna Lots of tall trees
May I have some input as to what people are using on 160 Gary N6biz

Sent from my iPad
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Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

[MICHAEL ST ANGELO]

Have there been any professional studies done on the efficiency of elevated 
radials?

One would think the broadcast industry would be interested in a few elevated 
radials instead of burying all that expensive copper. They could use the 
Aluminium conductor steel-reinforced cable favored by the power companies.

I read N6LF's paper and I recall he emphasized the radials should be tuned? 
What are the effect of changes in foliage around the radials ground moisture 
content when it rains or snows.

I tried elevated radials when I installed my Inverted L but found it 
problematic supporting four quarter wavelength radials in the yard. Also, the 
XYL doesn't mind some wires strung across the tree tops but would object to low 
wires strung about the yard.

I ended up placing radials in the ground since most of that part of the yard is 
wooded. They get buried under the undergrowth and leaves.

Mike N2MS


> On August 28, 2017 at 10:17 AM Mike Waters  wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe not. There has been more research done since I last read N6LF's
> writings, etc. The earth underneath must have something to do with it. In
> any case, the current has to be the same on all the radials.
> 
> This is the first reference. See what you think.
> http://lists.contesting.com/_topband/2007-11/msg00248.html
> 
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
> 
> On Aug 28, 2017 8:03 AM, "StellarCAT"  wrote:
> 
> Really? Well established FACT? I’m quite confused then as reading John’s
> book it seems quite nebulous the impact of elevated radials. Doesn’t seem
> to be a ‘fact’ – more dependent on location and other variables. I’m not
> suggesting you’re wrong – just it seems the jury is quite out on this
> ‘fact’. W8JI measured a -4.3 db difference between 4 elevated and only 60
> (not 120) on the ground  others show differences of -3 – almost -6 db
> ... I’m not sure itsquite that clear to say “well established fact” ...
> Gary  K9RX
> _
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Re: Topband: 160 4 square

[Lee STRAHAN]

   Good morning all,
  What I can tell you about the two antennas for 160 meter receiving is 
that as many have said before, you cannot have too many receiving antennas for 
160 meters. Before Dale N4NN became ill and passed, Dale and I maintained near 
daily contact. Dale had the Hi-Z 8 element with very little local noise. We 
always quietly compared his station with what you were reporting JC. As near as 
I could tell in the Florida area the two antennas were very close to each 
other. Most often both antennas would hear the same signals.
  There are a couple more contest stations that actually have both a horizontal 
Waller flag and a Hi-Z 4-8pro or 8A 8 circle. In one case the verticals are the 
preferred and in the other the word is you need both antennas. My opinion, I 
think it depends quite a bit on station location. That is, I think on stations 
near the ocean coasts the horizontal Waller flag hears very well. Again, my 
opinion but I don’t think it works as well in the mid lands or receiving over 
long stretches of land. Eventually we will have enough history to really know 
for sure if one or the other is better. Again, there is likely advantages to 
either one at different times or locations. Suffice to say there is lots left 
to be learned
In that regard, some stations have reported the Hi-Z full sized 8 circle to 
not quite have enough sensitivity in really quiet background noise areas. I 
have developed a means to reduce the noise figure of that array very 
significantly and the first beta test users are reporting a definite 
improvement to the standard Hi-Z 200 foot 8 circle on 160 meters for those 
fortunate enough to have a really quiet location.
Lee   K7TJR

From: Bob Kupps [mailto:n...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 5:58 AM
To: JC ; 'Lee STRAHAN' ; 'GaryK9GS' 
; 'Greg' ; 'topband' 

Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square

Well I ordered one about half a year ago so if it ever comes I will be able to 
compare it directly with my HiZ 8 circle array and get a definitive answer. We 
have no local noise here only propagated tropical QRN.

73 Bob HS0ZIA
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Inverted L successes

[Doug Ellmore]

I moved to a sloping Inverted L last fall when I only had 17 countries
confirmed on DXCC.

Initially the base had three 56' ground radials and was fed 40' from my
tower.  The diagonally placed vertical sloped up towards the base of my
Navassa5 yagi at 40', then horizontal toward a tree.

I confirmed 70+ countries by December 2016.  In January I added 15 radials
about 30' long.

I direct fed the antenna.  I had a 7 toroid (31) to provide a choke at the
feed point.

I used QRP to 1500w to work stations and confirmed DXCC in March.

I worked sunrise, sunsets, and various times during the night.

An inverted L no matter what height the vertical section is better than a
dipole.  In this case, a little of something is better than a lot of
nothing.

DON'T over think it.   Just Do It!

73

Doug / NA1DX

-- 
Doug Ellmore, Sr.
d...@ellmore.net
_
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Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

[Stan Stockton]

Next to last paragraph is what I had focused on before sending you an email 
last night.  Seems there it is not cut and dried solution, maybe even some 
black magic, as opposed to an excellent ground system.  I would take my chances 
with 120 radials on ground given the choice and dispense with the all important 
choke.

Stan, K5GO

> On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Mike Waters  wrote:
> 
> Maybe not. There has been more research done since I last read N6LF's
> writings, etc. The earth underneath must have something to do with it. In
> any case, the current has to be the same on all the radials.
> 
> This is the first reference. See what you think.
> http://lists.contesting.com/_topband/2007-11/msg00248.html
> 
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
> 
> On Aug 28, 2017 8:03 AM, "StellarCAT"  wrote:
> 
> Really? Well established FACT? I’m quite confused then as reading John’s
> book it seems quite nebulous the impact of elevated radials. Doesn’t seem
> to be a ‘fact’ – more dependent on location and other variables. I’m not
> suggesting you’re wrong – just it seems the jury is quite out on this
> ‘fact’. W8JI measured a -4.3 db difference between 4 elevated and only 60
> (not 120) on the ground  others show differences of -3 – almost -6 db
> ... I’m not sure itsquite that clear to say “well established fact” ...
> Gary  K9RX
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

[Mike Waters]

Maybe not. There has been more research done since I last read N6LF's
writings, etc. The earth underneath must have something to do with it. In
any case, the current has to be the same on all the radials.

This is the first reference. See what you think.
http://lists.contesting.com/_topband/2007-11/msg00248.html

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Aug 28, 2017 8:03 AM, "StellarCAT"  wrote:

Really? Well established FACT? I’m quite confused then as reading John’s
book it seems quite nebulous the impact of elevated radials. Doesn’t seem
to be a ‘fact’ – more dependent on location and other variables. I’m not
suggesting you’re wrong – just it seems the jury is quite out on this
‘fact’. W8JI measured a -4.3 db difference between 4 elevated and only 60
(not 120) on the ground  others show differences of -3 – almost -6 db
... I’m not sure itsquite that clear to say “well established fact” ...
Gary  K9RX
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

[StellarCAT]

Really? Well established FACT? I’m quite confused then as reading John’s book 
it seems quite nebulous the impact of elevated radials. Doesn’t seem to be a 
‘fact’ – more dependent on location and other variables. I’m not suggesting 
you’re wrong – just it seems the jury is quite out on this ‘fact’. W8JI 
measured a -4.3 db difference between 4 elevated and only 60 (not 120) on the 
ground  others show differences of -3 – almost -6 db ... I’m not sure 
itsquite that clear to say “well established fact” ... Gary  K9RX The 
importance of a ferrite choke balun at the feedpoint cannot be
overemphasized. A good design for 160m is 5 or 6 turns of coax wound
through five stacked 2.4" 31-material ferrite toroids. Photos and details
on my web pages referenced earlier.

I had two elevated radials. It is a well-established fact that four 10' or
12' high 1/4 wave radials are as good as 120 on the ground.

73 Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160 4 square

[Bob Kupps via Topband]

Well I ordered one about half a year ago so if it ever comes I will be able to 
compare it directly with my HiZ 8 circle array and get a definitive answer. We 
have no local noise here only propagated tropical QRN.
73 Bob HS0ZIA

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 18:56, JC wrote:   Hi Lee

Good question, The HWF has a deep null on vertical signals, propagated noise
like ground wave can be attenuated over 80 db. The tower on the center of
the WF does have little effect adding noise into the HF. Actually the WF
load the tower and lower the resonance as result.
I detained my tower in 2006 when I started to use my vertical WF, called Big
Waller Flag by Doug. I never noticed any interaction with the HWF from 2009
to 2015. I used a local BC signal as reference to detune the tower and take
polar plot diagram. 
The noise during the day on my WF is always zero. It means below the
sensitivity of my receiver system  near 1 db NF. Two year ago I had a power
line noise very close to my home, 500ft or less, I posted a video about the
contest under that kind of QRM.  With that QRM I noticed some noise during
the day. Pete N8PR come to help me to check it and we adjust the tuning
capacitor and I was able to remove 6 more db of noise fining de-tuning the
tower, Just a reference I was using 35 pf and after I removed it, 0pf) I got
-6bd of noise reduction, Whiteout the strong local QRM I was not able to
notice it before. 

Detuning the tower can bring -20 to -30 db  noise re-radiation, but
re-radiation is not zero, Some HF antennas sharing the same mast with a WF
can interact with the WF on the same frequency, balance is the name of the
game. Unbalanced loops cannot cancel 100% of the noise, but the interaction
in most case are not severe with HF beam and good performance is expected in
most installations. However Inverted V and re-radiate almost 2 s units of
noise and must be detuned open fiscally the wires near the coaxial feed line
or balun.

The advantage of a horizontal antenna besides noise is the horizontal
propagation on low bands, Refraction is more intense on 160m than 40m, it
means the signal bent more on the topband, as a result the path for
horizontal signal is not the same as vertical polarized signals, It is
common to see signals from deep Asia, Nodir as example EY8MM signal direct
is 10 degree here but several times I can hear only between 60 and 90 degree
when there is no copy from 10 degree. 

Long path or really SSW SSE propagation is another propagation mechanist
that brings the signal horizontal most of the time. On 80m I can hear south
Asia HS0 XU 9M2 almost every day during the DX season, 160 is very common
SSE SSW as well. I can compare the difference with my Vertical WF and also
with other folks in Florida , like Doug NX4D that's uses only vertical pol,
during 2010 when the SSE SSW was very strong I could hear XU7ACY 80% is the
time and Doug only 5 % of the time.

Vertical signals are always strong, as well the noise. Sometimes there are
not horizontal signals as well. However I manage to work almost  DX
expeditions like VK0,E31,H40,FT4, 3D0A, ET, VP8's,EP FT5ZM, 9M0 , I missed
only H44 due QRN. I was not able to work YB, BY  JT XX9 XV XW and few others
SSE/SSW path on 160m, 80m is so easy SSE SSW that signals can be hear 2
hours after sunrise, and sometime 2 hours before sunset.

Regards
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Lee STRAHAN [mailto:k7...@msn.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 2:03 AM
To: JC ; 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg'
; 'topband' 
Subject: RE: Topband: 160 4 square

 Hello All
    JC, Greg knows quite a bit about receiving on 160 meters as he has had a
Hi-Z 8 element array for some years now. Actually he has done quite well
with it. Especially when he was neighbors with our dear departed friend N4NN
in Florida.
  JC, I have a question. If the Waller flag does not respond to vertical
signals why do you have to detune your vertical tower? The second part of my
question is if you do not have any local power line noises covering vertical
signals what advantage would a horizontal RX antenna be?

Lee    K7TJR

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:05 PM
To: 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband'

Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square

HI Greg

You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you
want to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more.

You can  see the two webinars about Waller Flag at  www.wwrof.org archives

http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/

http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lo
t/

Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3
years later with a Waller Flag and am at 

Re: Topband: Best 160 antenna

[W9UCW--- via Topband]

Wow! What a question to ask on this  site. Gary, every member has an 
answer. Back as far as the 70's I asked that  question of about 80 160 DXers 
world 
wide. I had more than 60 of them answer  with diagrams, charts, results, 
pictures and descriptions. Eventually a summary  of the survey was published 
in QST as a part of an article about a top loaded  vertical using available 
parts. I think the results of the survey are  still applicable today. You can 
access it at   QST_Dec_1974_p15-19_28.pdf  in the ARRL QST archives. The 
name of the article is "The  Minooka Special." 
My answer to your question is that I want  to have an efficient vertical of 
one kind or another, an efficient, low noise  horizontal like a full wave 
loop, and a directional receiving  array.
 
Best DX, 73, Barry, W9UCW
 
 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160 4 square

[JC]

Hi Lee

Good question, The HWF has a deep null on vertical signals, propagated noise
like ground wave can be attenuated over 80 db. The tower on the center of
the WF does have little effect adding noise into the HF. Actually the WF
load the tower and lower the resonance as result.
I detained my tower in 2006 when I started to use my vertical WF, called Big
Waller Flag by Doug. I never noticed any interaction with the HWF from 2009
to 2015. I used a local BC signal as reference to detune the tower and take
polar plot diagram. 
The noise during the day on my WF is always zero. It means below the
sensitivity of my receiver system  near 1 db NF. Two year ago I had a power
line noise very close to my home, 500ft or less, I posted a video about the
contest under that kind of QRM.  With that QRM I noticed some noise during
the day. Pete N8PR come to help me to check it and we adjust the tuning
capacitor and I was able to remove 6 more db of noise fining de-tuning the
tower, Just a reference I was using 35 pf and after I removed it, 0pf) I got
-6bd of noise reduction, Whiteout the strong local QRM I was not able to
notice it before. 

Detuning the tower can bring -20 to -30 db  noise re-radiation, but
re-radiation is not zero, Some HF antennas sharing the same mast with a WF
can interact with the WF on the same frequency, balance is the name of the
game. Unbalanced loops cannot cancel 100% of the noise, but the interaction
in most case are not severe with HF beam and good performance is expected in
most installations. However Inverted V and re-radiate almost 2 s units of
noise and must be detuned open fiscally the wires near the coaxial feed line
or balun.

The advantage of a horizontal antenna besides noise is the horizontal
propagation on low bands, Refraction is more intense on 160m than 40m, it
means the signal bent more on the topband, as a result the path for
horizontal signal is not the same as vertical polarized signals, It is
common to see signals from deep Asia, Nodir as example EY8MM signal direct
is 10 degree here but several times I can hear only between 60 and 90 degree
when there is no copy from 10 degree. 

Long path or really SSW SSE propagation is another propagation mechanist
that brings the signal horizontal most of the time. On 80m I can hear south
Asia HS0 XU 9M2 almost every day during the DX season, 160 is very common
SSE SSW as well. I can compare the difference with my Vertical WF and also
with other folks in Florida , like Doug NX4D that's uses only vertical pol,
during 2010 when the SSE SSW was very strong I could hear XU7ACY 80% is the
time and Doug only 5 % of the time.

Vertical signals are always strong, as well the noise. Sometimes there are
not horizontal signals as well. However I manage to work almost  DX
expeditions like VK0,E31,H40,FT4, 3D0A, ET, VP8's,EP FT5ZM, 9M0 , I missed
only H44 due QRN. I was not able to work YB, BY  JT XX9 XV XW and few others
SSE/SSW path on 160m, 80m is so easy SSE SSW that signals can be hear 2
hours after sunrise, and sometime 2 hours before sunset.

Regards
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Lee STRAHAN [mailto:k7...@msn.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 2:03 AM
To: JC ; 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg'
; 'topband' 
Subject: RE: Topband: 160 4 square

 Hello All
JC, Greg knows quite a bit about receiving on 160 meters as he has had a
Hi-Z 8 element array for some years now. Actually he has done quite well
with it. Especially when he was neighbors with our dear departed friend N4NN
in Florida.
   JC, I have a question. If the Waller flag does not respond to vertical
signals why do you have to detune your vertical tower? The second part of my
question is if you do not have any local power line noises covering vertical
signals what advantage would a horizontal RX antenna be?

LeeK7TJR

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:05 PM
To: 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband'

Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square

HI Greg

You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you
want to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more.

You can  see the two webinars about Waller Flag at  www.wwrof.org archives

http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/

http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lo
t/

Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3
years later with a Waller Flag and am at #293 confirmed. I sure mist a 4
square for TX ,. because since 2006 I've heard 316 countries on 160m from my
acre city lot in Fort Lauderdale on the last 10 years. 

Noise is very high here on the city

The best way you can destroy the station for RX on low bands is to use
elevated radials and NOT DETUNE IT during RX. 

The 

Re: Topband: 160 4 square

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hello

and here start the big problem. Seems detuning towers is not simple, and no
comercial way to do that, and you need to be very smart to do it.

Many people talking about detuning tower, then when you ask, very little
are kind to help and you need to have some knowledge to do it

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

2017-08-28 0:05 GMT-03:00 JC :

> HI Greg
>
> You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you
> want to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more.
>
> You can  see the two webinars about Waller Flag at  www.wwrof.org archives
>
> http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/
>
> http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-
> antennas-for-a-small-lot/
>
> Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3
> years later with a Waller Flag and am at #293 confirmed. I sure mist a 4
> square for TX ,. because since 2006 I've heard 316 countries on 160m from
> my acre city lot in Fort Lauderdale on the last 10 years.
>
> Noise is very high here on the city
>
> The best way you can destroy the station for RX on low bands is to use
> elevated radials and NOT DETUNE IT during RX.
>
> The concept is  simple! All your wires makes only one receiving system. It
> is necessity to keep all of them clean.
>
> Performance is subjective, if you have nothing to compare you never know
> what you are missing.
>
> If you listen only vertical you are missing 50% of the band.
>
> Regards
> JC
> N4IS
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
> GaryK9GS
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 5:51 PM
> To: Greg ; 'topband' 
> Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square
>
> Take a look at the K3LR website.  This is essentially what Tim does, only
> instead of a 4-square, his array is a 5 element parasitic array with three
> active elements.  K3LR just gave a presentation on his station this weekend
> for the Society of Midwest Contesters and this was mentioned.
>
>
> 73,
> Gary K9GS
>  Original message From: Greg  Date:
> 8/27/17  1:56 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 'topband' 
> Subject: Topband: 160 4 square Question for the group...
>
> From a 140 foot freestanding tower, I will suspend 4 pieces of phillystran
> 90 degrees apart from the top of the tower.  Antenna wire will be attached
> to the phillystran such that verticals will be dropped to create a 4 square.
> I will have as much vertical length as practical and still obtain the 4
> square spacing required -- but the vertical length certainly will not be
> close to a quarter wave.  The intent is to use the verticals as a 4 square.
> In thinking of ways to increase the electrical length, should I run wire
> back toward the tower from the top of the vertical section to get the full
> 1/4 or use a T with wire going back toward the tower and down the
> phillystran to create a "top hat" effect -- or does it matter?  Obviously
> this is a compromise but hopefully still an effective antenna with
> directional gain.  Thanks in advance for your thoughts.  73, Greg-N4CC
> _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_
> topband
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>



-- 
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160 4 square

[Lee STRAHAN]

 Hello All
JC, Greg knows quite a bit about receiving on 160 meters as he has had a 
Hi-Z 8 element array for some years now. Actually he has done quite well with 
it. Especially when he was neighbors with our dear departed friend N4NN in 
Florida.
   JC, I have a question. If the Waller flag does not respond to vertical 
signals why do you have to detune your vertical tower? The second part of my 
question is if you do not have any local power line noises covering vertical 
signals what advantage would a horizontal RX antenna be?

LeeK7TJR

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:05 PM
To: 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband' 

Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square

HI Greg

You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you want 
to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more.

You can  see the two webinars about Waller Flag at  www.wwrof.org archives

http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/

http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lot/

Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3 years 
later with a Waller Flag and am at #293 confirmed. I sure mist a 4 square for 
TX ,. because since 2006 I've heard 316 countries on 160m from my acre city lot 
in Fort Lauderdale on the last 10 years. 

Noise is very high here on the city

The best way you can destroy the station for RX on low bands is to use elevated 
radials and NOT DETUNE IT during RX. 

The concept is  simple! All your wires makes only one receiving system. It is 
necessity to keep all of them clean.

Performance is subjective, if you have nothing to compare you never know what 
you are missing.

If you listen only vertical you are missing 50% of the band.

Regards
JC
N4IS
 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of GaryK9GS
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 5:51 PM
To: Greg ; 'topband' 
Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square

Take a look at the K3LR website.  This is essentially what Tim does, only 
instead of a 4-square, his array is a 5 element parasitic array with three 
active elements.  K3LR just gave a presentation on his station this weekend for 
the Society of Midwest Contesters and this was mentioned.


73,
Gary K9GS
 Original message From: Greg  Date: 
8/27/17  1:56 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 'topband'  Subject: 
Topband: 160 4 square Question for the group...

>From a 140 foot freestanding tower, I will suspend 4 pieces of phillystran
90 degrees apart from the top of the tower.  Antenna wire will be attached to 
the phillystran such that verticals will be dropped to create a 4 square.
I will have as much vertical length as practical and still obtain the 4 square 
spacing required -- but the vertical length certainly will not be close to a 
quarter wave.  The intent is to use the verticals as a 4 square.
In thinking of ways to increase the electrical length, should I run wire back 
toward the tower from the top of the vertical section to get the full
1/4 or use a T with wire going back toward the tower and down the phillystran 
to create a "top hat" effect -- or does it matter?  Obviously this is a 
compromise but hopefully still an effective antenna with directional gain.  
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.  73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband 
Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband