Topband: Topband resource

[Jim Thomson]

Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:58:57 + (UTC)
From: Roger Parsons 
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Topband resource

http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Roger Parsons via Topband]

Yes
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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Jim Brown]

On 1/15/2020 1:25 PM, Roger Parsons via Topband wrote:

Your point is unclear to me.


Did you study the slides?

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Roger Parsons via Topband]

K9YC wrote: "But there IS a difference in efficiency that looking ONLY at the 
pattern misses."

Your point is unclear to me. Of course the pattern of a horizontal antenna 
changes with changing height and with other environmental factors. If the 
antenna is actually on the ground the efficiency is pretty terrible, but it 
does not have to be very high before efficiency does not change meaningfully 
with height - assuming that total radiation is considered rather than just that 
which is useful.

However, I was only describing a horizontal dipole at around 5/8 wavelength 
high. NR1DX suggested that because the ends are lower than the centre that 
there was now an additional "significant vertical component". There is not if 
the included angle is shallow, which in my case it is.* 

73 Roger
VE3ZI

*(I stated that the ends were at 250' - they are at least that, and could be up 
to about 290' - but I have not accurately measured the tension in the support 
rope nor allowed for stretch so I cannot be specific about the catenary.)
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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Arthur Delibert]

Back in the late 90s, there were a pair of articles in QST about a receiving 
antenna for 80 and 160 that rejects local noise.  The antenna was low and 
horizontal, it was exceptionally quiet even in a somewhat noisy location, and 
it had a very high reception angle.  I recall that the authors said they could 
hear pretty much everything the "big boys" could hear, but for a shorter window 
of time.  Also seems consistent with what Lee said.

Overall, I have to say that 160M propagation is still somewhat mysterious, and 
we should be careful about judging too quickly what others describe as their 
experience.  We're like the three blind men describing the elephant:  each of 
us has hold of a different part and so we have different experiences.  We won't 
understand the full picture until we respect and appreciate each other's 
experiences.

'Nuf said.

Art Delibert, KB3FJO


From: Topband  on behalf of 
Jim Brown 
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:56 PM
To: topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: Topband resource

On 1/15/2020 11:13 AM, Lee STRAHAN wrote:
> And from the Northwest I have a slightly different observation of 
> horizontal/vertical questions.

Your analysis makes lots of sense, Lee. It's consistent with what I've
read from trustworthy sources about propagation.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Jim Brown]

On 1/15/2020 11:13 AM, Lee STRAHAN wrote:

And from the Northwest I have a slightly different observation of 
horizontal/vertical questions.


Your analysis makes lots of sense, Lee. It's consistent with what I've 
read from trustworthy sources about propagation.


73, Jim K9YC
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Topband: Topband resource

[Lee STRAHAN]

   And from the Northwest I have a slightly different observation of 
horizontal/vertical questions. What I have noticed is this. I more or less 
equate Horizontal antennas with high angle and vertical with low. The EU 
stations are usually mostly looking West into the setting sun. The East coast 
stations are looking into the total darkness toward EU mostly. Here in the 
Northwest we look into darkness toward EU and the East coast. I mention this 
because observations of high angle signals are VERY rare looking East toward 
EU. Maybe twice in 10 years. However looking West toward the setting sun and JA 
and UA0 I often see signals start early on the low angle vertical antennas and 
progress toward high angle signals in a same setting. The low horizontal takes 
over as the signals apparently get to a higher angle. I am about 200 miles from 
the Pacific. I have on my project list (way way down it) to build a high angle, 
low elevation horizontal array with a high RDF and gain just to see what it 
would do. Unfortunately it stays way down the list.
   For me Frank LPL says it all " You can never have too many antennas... 
Unless they interfere with each other, a non-trivial issue."
Lee   K7TJR   OR


It's more than antennas. There's also propagation. You're 700 miles ESE of me, 
which gives you a path to EU over less of the auroral zone.

AND there's noise, which has been increasing over time. My first years in W6 
were more productive for CW on Topband than now -- I have a dozen or so 
countries in the log from the solar minimum of those earlier years.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/15/2020 6:21 AM, Wes wrote:
> Roger is in my logbook, along with at least five other "G" stations.  
> My station is described on my QRZ page.  I receive on the TX antenna.
> 
> Wes  N7WS

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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Jim Brown]

On 1/15/2020 9:55 AM, Roger Parsons via Topband wrote:

There is very little pattern difference between a purely horizontal dipole and 
an inverted V provided that the angle of the V is not too acute. A horizontal 
dipole 5/8 wavelength high has predominantly low angle  radiation.


But there IS a difference in efficiency that looking ONLY at the pattern 
misses. To understand this, take a look at


http://k9yc.com/VertOrHorizontal-Slides.pdf

starting around slide #18, which plots the pattern of an 80M dipole as 
it's height is varied ON THE SAME AXES, and the following slide, which 
picks points off of those curves to show gain vs height at vertical 
angles of 5, 10, 15, 20, and 70 degrees. Slide #19 clearly shows that 
gain at low angles increases with mounting height. To apply these data 
to 160M, simply multiply height by 2.


There is, of course, also the matter of how horizontally and vertically 
polarized waves propagate, and how they are affected by nearby earth. 
Vertically polarized waves encounter a very strong loss component from 
poor soil conductivity, while horizontally polarized waves are almost 
unaffected.


73, Jim K9YC
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Topband: Hamvention related updates

[Tim Duffy]

2020 Dayton Contest University Professors and the 2020 Course Outline have
been posted.

  https://www.contestuniversity.com/

 
https://www.contestuniversity.com/course-outline/

 

2020 Dayton TopBand Dinner speaker is Glenn Johnson, W0GJ

  https://www.topbanddinner.com/

Info about Glenn's talk is here:

 
https://www.topbanddinner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/VP6R-pg1-3.pdf

 

The 28th Annual Dayton Contest Dinner 

  https://www.contestdinner.com/

Our dinner speaker is Bryant, KG5HVO - his bio is here:

 

https://www.contestdinner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Bryant-Rascoll-KG5H
VO.pdf

 

73

Tim K3LR

 

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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Jim Brown]

It's more than antennas. There's also propagation. You're 700 miles ESE 
of me, which gives you a path to EU over less of the auroral zone.


AND there's noise, which has been increasing over time. My first years 
in W6 were more productive for CW on Topband than now -- I have a dozen 
or so countries in the log from the solar minimum of those earlier years.


73, Jim K9YC

On 1/15/2020 6:21 AM, Wes wrote:
Roger is in my logbook, along with at least five other "G" stations.  My 
station is described on my QRZ page.  I receive on the TX antenna.


Wes  N7WS


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Re: Topband: Topband resource vertical vs. horizontal

[David Olean]

I was always intrigued by the success of our "Down Under" friends in 
VK6. They tried vertical polarization and it was horrible. They had much 
better luck with horizontal wires.  I think this had much to do with the 
gyro frequency.  It depends on where you are in the world.  I am about 
30 miles away from salt water. My ground is poor with hills and rocky 
soil.  The tops of the local hills are solid rock.   I tried an inverted 
vee antenna for 160. It worked, but not very well.  My signal was sort 
of like chopped liver. No one would answer me when I called!  I did 
catch an opening, however, where it worked very well and I nabbed two JA 
stations. I have a recording of one of the  QSOs , and my signal got 
very loud in JA at times. Switching to a vertical here, there was no 
comparison. I went from chopped liver to meat loaf and gravy. Still it 
was a long time before I worked another JA, and when I did, it was a 
squeaker!


73

Dave K1WHS

On 1/15/2020 4:17 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Roger has 27 topband QSOs in my log since February 1993,
well done!


Its interesting how our transmitting antenna experiences are exactly
opposite on both 160 and 80 meters. I've had little success with
160 meter horizontal dipoles 100 to 200 feet high compared to
my 4-square vertical array which always perform superbly.


I use only vertically polarized antennas f or topband receiving ,
a 350 foot diameter W8JI/W5ZN/N4HY passive 8-circle array,
580 foot Beverages and my transmitting 4-square array. All
receive 6 to 10 dB better for DX than horizontal dipoles at my QTH.
Many easily copied DX signals on the verticals are completely
inaudible on the horizontal dipoles.



On 80 meters I use only horizontally polarized 2 element quads
170 feet high for transmitting which are far superior to any verticals
I've tried although I've never tried anything more sophisticated than
a 4-square transmitting array.


My 80 meter quads perform very well as receiving antennas, on
some -- but not all -- very weak signals they outperform the
175 foot diameter passive 8-circle array and 580 foot Beverages.


You can never have too many antennas...
Unless they interfere with each other, a non-trivial issue.


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "Roger Kennedy" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 10:48:51 PM
Subject: Topband: Topband resource


"However, 160 needs vertical polarization for consistent long DX."

So how is it that I consistently work all over the world on 160m with my
horizontal dipole at 50ft?! (and my signals seem to often be pretty
comparable with other Brits using verticals}

You certainly need a Vertical to work DX on 80m . . . but in my experience
160m propagation is very different . . . I'm guessing it's often quite high
angle due to multi-hop or ducting.

Also, I don't understand why on the Web page they are talking about NA
stations coming on Top Band at 1730 UTC to work Europe . . . I don't find
the band opens to NA until at least 2200 . . . and for me signals are always
much better after midnight.

Roger G3YRO


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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Roger Parsons via Topband]

NR1DX wrote: "Apples and oranges." regarding my antennas.

Not really. 

There is very little pattern difference between a purely horizontal dipole and 
an inverted V provided that the angle of the V is not too acute. A horizontal 
dipole 5/8 wavelength high has predominantly low angle  radiation.

W4RNL is sadly an SK. However, he designed and described a great many antenna 
systems one of which is a half wave vertical array for 160m. I have one. Here.

73 Roger
VE3ZI


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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

I was only really able to work Carib/CA/SA with my inverted v at 70 ft.  
With the inverted L I get our far better.  I am a very long way from any 
salt water in any direction.


W0MU

On 1/15/2020 9:17 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Roger has 27 topband QSOs in my log since February 1993,
well done!


Its interesting how our transmitting antenna experiences are exactly
opposite on both 160 and 80 meters. I've had little success with
160 meter horizontal dipoles 100 to 200 feet high compared to
my 4-square vertical array which always perform superbly.


I use only vertically polarized antennas f or topband receiving ,
a 350 foot diameter W8JI/W5ZN/N4HY passive 8-circle array,
580 foot Beverages and my transmitting 4-square array. All
receive 6 to 10 dB better for DX than horizontal dipoles at my QTH.
Many easily copied DX signals on the verticals are completely
inaudible on the horizontal dipoles.



On 80 meters I use only horizontally polarized 2 element quads
170 feet high for transmitting which are far superior to any verticals
I've tried although I've never tried anything more sophisticated than
a 4-square transmitting array.


My 80 meter quads perform very well as receiving antennas, on
some -- but not all -- very weak signals they outperform the
175 foot diameter passive 8-circle array and 580 foot Beverages.


You can never have too many antennas...
Unless they interfere with each other, a non-trivial issue.


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "Roger Kennedy" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 10:48:51 PM
Subject: Topband: Topband resource


"However, 160 needs vertical polarization for consistent long DX."

So how is it that I consistently work all over the world on 160m with my
horizontal dipole at 50ft?! (and my signals seem to often be pretty
comparable with other Brits using verticals}

You certainly need a Vertical to work DX on 80m . . . but in my experience
160m propagation is very different . . . I'm guessing it's often quite high
angle due to multi-hop or ducting.

Also, I don't understand why on the Web page they are talking about NA
stations coming on Top Band at 1730 UTC to work Europe . . . I don't find
the band opens to NA until at least 2200 . . . and for me signals are always
much better after midnight.

Roger G3YRO


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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Artek Manuals]

Roger

Apples and oranges

Your antenna is not a dipole but rather an Inverted V . Inverted V's 
have a significant "vertical" radiation component compared to a dipole


I am not sure how you can compare your performance to the W4RNL 
installation given your 750 miles north of there? Please explain the 
basis for your claim?


Dave
NR1DX


On 1/15/2020 10:58 AM, Roger Parsons via Topband wrote:

W8JI's experience with a horizontal dipole at 300 ft is often quoted as proof 
that only vertical antennas are useful for 160m DX. This is not my experience 
with a dipole with the centre at 320 ft and the ends at over 250'. In its 
favoured directions it is equal to a W4RNL half wave vertical array over a very 
large radial system. It is unsurprisingly not as good off the ends, and quite 
is useless for relatively local communications.
I am also inclined to support Roger, G3YRO, in his use of a low dipole, having 
myself successfully used relatively low horizontal antennas for DX in the past. 
There are most certainly times when higher angles are useful for DX - and 
possibly more frequently than we imagine. There actually have to be, otherwise 
Roger would never work any DX at all. Note, this does not mean that a good 
vertical antenna is not often or even usually better than a low horizontal one. 
Finally, the UK is small compared to many other countries, but it is not 
actually a tiny island. Roger's path to North America is over about 300 km of 
land, and he is more than 10km from the sea in any direction.

73 RogerVE3ZI/G3RBP
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--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[donovanf]

Roger has 27 topband QSOs in my log since February 1993, 
well done! 


Its interesting how our transmitting antenna experiences are exactly 
opposite on both 160 and 80 meters. I've had little success with 
160 meter horizontal dipoles 100 to 200 feet high compared to 
my 4-square vertical array which always perform superbly. 


I use only vertically polarized antennas f or topband receiving , 
a 350 foot diameter W8JI/W5ZN/N4HY passive 8-circle array, 
580 foot Beverages and my transmitting 4-square array. All 
receive 6 to 10 dB better for DX than horizontal dipoles at my QTH. 
Many easily copied DX signals on the verticals are completely 
inaudible on the horizontal dipoles. 



On 80 meters I use only horizontally polarized 2 element quads 
170 feet high for transmitting which are far superior to any verticals 
I've tried although I've never tried anything more sophisticated than 
a 4-square transmitting array. 


My 80 meter quads perform very well as receiving antennas, on 
some -- but not all -- very weak signals they outperform the 
175 foot diameter passive 8-circle array and 580 foot Beverages. 


You can never have too many antennas... 
Unless they interfere with each other, a non-trivial issue. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Roger Kennedy"  
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 10:48:51 PM 
Subject: Topband: Topband resource 


"However, 160 needs vertical polarization for consistent long DX." 

So how is it that I consistently work all over the world on 160m with my 
horizontal dipole at 50ft?! (and my signals seem to often be pretty 
comparable with other Brits using verticals} 

You certainly need a Vertical to work DX on 80m . . . but in my experience 
160m propagation is very different . . . I'm guessing it's often quite high 
angle due to multi-hop or ducting. 

Also, I don't understand why on the Web page they are talking about NA 
stations coming on Top Band at 1730 UTC to work Europe . . . I don't find 
the band opens to NA until at least 2200 . . . and for me signals are always 
much better after midnight. 

Roger G3YRO 


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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Roger Parsons via Topband]

W8JI's experience with a horizontal dipole at 300 ft is often quoted as proof 
that only vertical antennas are useful for 160m DX. This is not my experience 
with a dipole with the centre at 320 ft and the ends at over 250'. In its 
favoured directions it is equal to a W4RNL half wave vertical array over a very 
large radial system. It is unsurprisingly not as good off the ends, and quite 
is useless for relatively local communications.
I am also inclined to support Roger, G3YRO, in his use of a low dipole, having 
myself successfully used relatively low horizontal antennas for DX in the past. 
There are most certainly times when higher angles are useful for DX - and 
possibly more frequently than we imagine. There actually have to be, otherwise 
Roger would never work any DX at all. Note, this does not mean that a good 
vertical antenna is not often or even usually better than a low horizontal one. 
Finally, the UK is small compared to many other countries, but it is not 
actually a tiny island. Roger's path to North America is over about 300 km of 
land, and he is more than 10km from the sea in any direction.

73 RogerVE3ZI/G3RBP
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Topband: Message from HI3/KC1XX

[John Kaufmann via Topband]

Greetings Topbanders,

 

Matt, KC1XX, is spending the winter in HI3 and asked me to relay this
message to all of you.  He is on the air as HI3/KC1XX but is experiencing
terrible line noise at his present location.  He hears lots of stations
calling him on the low bands but he is having great difficulty pulling out
callsigns through the noise.  He apologizes to those who have been calling
without success.  However, Matt moves to a different location down there in
early February and the noise situation should improve.  At that time he
should be able to hear and work more of you.

 

73, John W1FV

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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Wes]

Roger is in my logbook, along with at least five other "G" stations.  My station 
is described on my QRZ page.  I receive on the TX antenna.


Wes  N7WS


On 1/14/2020 9:23 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 1/14/2020 4:30 PM, Roger Kennedy wrote:

  And I get good reports all over the world, not just
right across America.


I've HEARD two UK CW stations on 160M in the past six seasons, and worked one 
of them. You were not either of those stations.


Jim K9YC
Santa Cruz, CA 


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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Rob Atkinson]

>So how is it that I consistently work all over the world on 160m with my
>horizontal dipole at 50ft?!

Oh boy, here we go again.  As I believe I have pointed out before,
your QTH is not that far from a fairly vast amount of salt water.  You
can believe anything you want, but your experience if not embellished,
is atypical and does not refute the general guidance that vertical
monopoles with good ground systems perform better for relatively long
transmission distances on medium wave.   So you "consistently work all
over the world on 160m."   Over what period of time?  40 years?  One
contest?   Have you ever tried some sort of T or inverted L over 60+
radials using your dipole for receiving?  Perhaps you'd find you can
"work all over the world" in a much shorter time period?
Your repeated bragging/questioning about your installation as a thinly
veiled argument is disinformation and it is not helpful.  The physics
of antennas do not get suspended for your location.

73

Rob
K5UJ
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Topband: Wednesday 160m DX CW Activity Night

[Roger Kennedy]

Well this is for all of us that complain about all the FT8 activity, but
very few CW stations on the band . . . 

Hope we can get lots of people on Top Band tonight so everyone can have lots
of QSOs !

I personally will be on from around 23.30 GMT . . . again at 03.00 . . . and
again at 07.30.

73 Roger G3YRO



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Re: Topband: Topband resource

[Jean-Paul Albert via Topband]

I am, more or less, 5 days a week around 1730 GMT calling CQ around 1815. Never 
be called by NA. 
Too early. 
So, I agree with Roger. 

Have a nice day. 

73

Jean-Paul 

F6FYA en direct depuis son iPad. 

> Le 14 janv. 2020 à 23:49, Roger Kennedy  a 
> écrit :
> 
> 
> "However, 160 needs vertical polarization for consistent long DX."
> 
> So how is it that I consistently work all over the world on 160m with my
> horizontal dipole at 50ft?!  (and my signals seem to often be pretty
> comparable with other Brits using verticals}
> 
> You certainly need a Vertical to work DX on 80m . . . but in my experience
> 160m propagation is very different . . . I'm guessing it's often quite high
> angle due to multi-hop or ducting.
> 
> Also, I don't understand why on the Web page they are talking about NA
> stations coming on Top Band at 1730 UTC to work Europe . . . I don't find
> the band opens to NA until at least 2200 . . . and for me signals are always
> much better after midnight.
> 
> Roger G3YRO
> 
> 
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