Re: Topband: YCCC 9 Vertical Array Preamplifiers

[w5zn]

Allow me to clarify my post. I was referring to the high impedance 
amplifiers at the vertical elements, not the 2N5109 preamp used 
sometimes post combiner.


73 Joel W5ZN


On 2020-03-01 20:27, w...@w5zn.org wrote:

As an alternative to the 2N5109 preamps, last year I acquired a set of
HiZ preamps to use on my YCCC 9 Circle array elements. They work
exceptionally well and exhibit a lower noise figure that I experienced
with the original YCCC amps.

I mentioned this solely for information with no other purpose as I
realize some like to use a simpler amplifier design that they can
build and/or repair. If you have an interest other than what has been
mentioned you can contact Lee at HiZ.

73 Joel W5ZN
_
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Reflector

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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/1/2020 7:44 PM, Don Kirk wrote:

Hi Rick,

My first example is why NVIS can be useful.  I often can't hear stations 
150 miles away on 160 meters using my TX vertical, but they are booming 
in on my pennant that has a much better response to higher angle signals 
(I could definitely generate more points in a 160 meter contest if I had 
the option to switch to an NVIS TX antenna at times). We can deal with 
fading, phase cancellation at times, etc. in our hobby, but in the AM 
broadcast industry they want to preserve signal and audio quality as 
much as possible all of the time so it's really a different situation.


73,
Don (wd8dsb)



OK, Don, that's a fair argument.

I should be able to do some simple tests on the BCB
comparing my car radio with a whip to a pocket radio
with a ferrite rod antenna.  The ferrite rod antenna
is omnidirectional wrt to elevation on account of
symmetry.  At sunset, the SF Bay Area stations reduce
power and become hard to hear 70 miles away here in
Sacramento county on the car radio.  My Sangean radio
should pull these in a lot better.  I will do some A/B'ing.

I completely agree that for 80 and 40 meter contests,
vertical miss out on all the close in stations.  I
have 80 and 40 meter cloud warmers for SS, etc.
I'm just not so sure that this happens on 160 meters.

Rick N6RK

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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Augie "Gus" Hansen]

On 3/1/2020 7:47 PM, Don Kirk wrote:

Hi Rick,

One more comment.  I believe AM broadcast stations try to avoid phase
cancellation between skywave and ground wave, and therefore they try and
avoid antennas that have a high angle lobe.  I'm pretty sure that's why the
AM broadcast stations that tried such things as a 5/8 wave length radiator
determined that this caused phase cancellation problems between ground wave
and skywave and abandoned radiators that were this tall.  (I might have
some of the exact details incorrect, but believe I have listed the general
problem they ran into which caused them to rethink ground wave versus
skywave and their antenna designs).


Correct. The 5/8-wave radiator (225 electrical degrees) suffers the 
destructive fringe mixing you described. By backing off to a 190 degree 
radiator, problem solved. Such antennas have the benefit of strong low 
angle radiation with no higher angle lobe, and are easier to match at 
the feed point than a half-wave vertical.


Gus Hansen
KB0YH

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: YCCC 9 Vertical Array Preamplifiers

[w5zn]

As an alternative to the 2N5109 preamps, last year I acquired a set of 
HiZ preamps to use on my YCCC 9 Circle array elements. They work 
exceptionally well and exhibit a lower noise figure that I experienced 
with the original YCCC amps.


I mentioned this solely for information with no other purpose as I 
realize some like to use a simpler amplifier design that they can build 
and/or repair. If you have an interest other than what has been 
mentioned you can contact Lee at HiZ.


73 Joel W5ZN
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Don Kirk]

Hi Rick,

My first example is why NVIS can be useful.  I often can't hear stations
150 miles away on 160 meters using my TX vertical, but they are booming in
on my pennant that has a much better response to higher angle signals (I
could definitely generate more points in a 160 meter contest if I had the
option to switch to an NVIS TX antenna at times).  We can deal with fading,
phase cancellation at times, etc. in our hobby, but in the AM broadcast
industry they want to preserve signal and audio quality as much as possible
all of the time so it's really a different situation.

73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 10:26 PM Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/1/2020 6:47 PM, Don Kirk wrote:
> > Hi Rick,
> >
> > One more comment.  I believe AM broadcast stations try to avoid phase
> > cancellation between skywave and ground wave, and therefore they try and
> > avoid antennas that have a high angle lobe.  I'm pretty sure that's why
> > the AM broadcast stations that tried such things as a 5/8 wave length
> > radiator determined that this caused phase cancellation problems between
>
> I think you have just made my argument for me.  NVIS antennas don't
> work for BCB stations.  What is different about ham stations such
> that NVIS should work on 160 meters?
>
> Rick N6RK
>
>
_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Cecil]

Good info Lee...thanks for the support!

Cecil
K5DL

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 1, 2020, at 9:36 PM, Lee STRAHAN  wrote:
> 
>   Hi Guys,
>   I got advance information of the 2N5109 and its cousin the 2N3866 
> transistors demise.  I used the 2N3866 in my older design Hi-Z 75 ohm preamp 
> so this transistor should suffice in most preamps that used the the 2N5109 . 
> I bought a good supply of the 2N3866 devices and can offer them up to the ham 
> community for $3.00 each in small quantities. I intend to support hams that 
> are in need of these devices in small quantities only which should prolong 
> the lives of the ubiquitous single transistor feedback preamp such as the 
> HI-Z and the W7IUV.
>   I am not selling these transistors through Hi-Z Antennas but through 
> private sales. E-Mail through k7...@msn.com or address below. There is no 
> profit to me involved. There will be postage costs involved also.
> 
>  Also do not buy the Motorola labeled 2N3866 or 2N5109 devices from China 
> as they are nothing more than audio transistors at best. I tried them.
> 
> LeeK7TJR
> 8125 SW Larch Dr.
> Culver, OR   97734
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband  On Behalf Of 
> Richard (Rick) Karlquist
> Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 3:31 PM
> To: VE6WZ_Steve ; Topband 
> Subject: Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3/1/2020 2:22 PM, VE6WZ_Steve wrote:
>> Just like some guys enjoy woodworking and making furniture that they may not 
>> really need, I like to build radio things just for the fun of the project 
>> even though I may not really “need” it.  For three years I have been using 
>> the original 9 circle RX array kit that I bought from DX-engineering, and it 
>> has performed well, but I wanted to build my own and add my own design 
>> tweaks.
>> 
>> Using KiCad, I have designed and built a 9 circle RX array combiner with a 
>> 2N5109 pre-amplifier integrated onto the same board.
>> 
> 
>> 73, de steve ve6wz
>> _
>> 
> 
> Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)
> 
> The 2N5109 is just about extinct.  Did you secure a source for it before you 
> laid out your PC board?  If you did, please share it with the rest of us.  
> Most people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with varying degrees of 
> success.  Are you possibly doing that?  Of course those substitutes are not 
> in a hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid out for differently 
> for them.
> 
> You might want to look at these references for so-called "E-field" arrays of 
> whip antennas:
> 
> A military design:
> 
> https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf
> 
> Various improvements to the above:
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf
> 
> You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site.
> 
> They go beyond the DXE design.
> 
> Good luck with your project.
> 
> BTW, how do you like KICAD?  I'm currently using a grandfathered EAGLE 7.7 
> perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD.
> 
> 73
> Rick N6RK
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
> _
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Lee STRAHAN]

  Hi Guys,
   I got advance information of the 2N5109 and its cousin the 2N3866 
transistors demise.  I used the 2N3866 in my older design Hi-Z 75 ohm preamp so 
this transistor should suffice in most preamps that used the the 2N5109 . I 
bought a good supply of the 2N3866 devices and can offer them up to the ham 
community for $3.00 each in small quantities. I intend to support hams that are 
in need of these devices in small quantities only which should prolong the 
lives of the ubiquitous single transistor feedback preamp such as the HI-Z and 
the W7IUV.
   I am not selling these transistors through Hi-Z Antennas but through private 
sales. E-Mail through k7...@msn.com or address below. There is no profit to me 
involved. There will be postage costs involved also.

  Also do not buy the Motorola labeled 2N3866 or 2N5109 devices from China 
as they are nothing more than audio transistors at best. I tried them.

LeeK7TJR
8125 SW Larch Dr.
Culver, OR   97734



-Original Message-
From: Topband  On Behalf Of 
Richard (Rick) Karlquist
Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 3:31 PM
To: VE6WZ_Steve ; Topband 
Subject: Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board



On 3/1/2020 2:22 PM, VE6WZ_Steve wrote:
> Just like some guys enjoy woodworking and making furniture that they may not 
> really need, I like to build radio things just for the fun of the project 
> even though I may not really “need” it.  For three years I have been using 
> the original 9 circle RX array kit that I bought from DX-engineering, and it 
> has performed well, but I wanted to build my own and add my own design tweaks.
> 
> Using KiCad, I have designed and built a 9 circle RX array combiner with a 
> 2N5109 pre-amplifier integrated onto the same board.
> 

> 73, de steve ve6wz
> _
>

Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)

The 2N5109 is just about extinct.  Did you secure a source for it before you 
laid out your PC board?  If you did, please share it with the rest of us.  Most 
people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with varying degrees of 
success.  Are you possibly doing that?  Of course those substitutes are not in 
a hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid out for differently for 
them.

You might want to look at these references for so-called "E-field" arrays of 
whip antennas:

A military design:

https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf

Various improvements to the above:

http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf

You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site.

They go beyond the DXE design.

Good luck with your project.

BTW, how do you like KICAD?  I'm currently using a grandfathered EAGLE 7.7 
perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD.

73
Rick N6RK
_
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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/1/2020 6:47 PM, Don Kirk wrote:

Hi Rick,

One more comment.  I believe AM broadcast stations try to avoid phase 
cancellation between skywave and ground wave, and therefore they try and 
avoid antennas that have a high angle lobe.  I'm pretty sure that's why 
the AM broadcast stations that tried such things as a 5/8 wave length 
radiator determined that this caused phase cancellation problems between 


I think you have just made my argument for me.  NVIS antennas don't
work for BCB stations.  What is different about ham stations such
that NVIS should work on 160 meters?

Rick N6RK

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Mike Waters]

So did I! Ordered ten a few minutes ago.

Good thing this discussion came up, as the TRW LT1001A CATV transistor in
my station's W7IUV preamp has long been unobtainium. (I got a few from W8JI
over 40 years ago, and this is the only one I have left!)

I could have sworn that I had some new 2N5109s in stock, but I couldn't
find any. Thus the order.

So, what is a good replacement for the 2N5109? I suppose it is an SMD
device, but that's not a problem.
 Finding that J310s were only available in a very small SMD package, I
bought some and soldered them to an adapter board (eBay) with solder paste
and a heat gun. First time, and it still looked professionally done! It's
just that easy.

73, Mike
W0BTU

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020, 7:28 PM Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
wrote:

>
> I just ordered some from Mouser; "March 30" ship date.
> Over 4000 were supposedly available.  Get 'em while you can!
>
> Rick N6RK
>
>
_
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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Don Kirk]

Hi Rick,

One more comment.  I believe AM broadcast stations try to avoid phase
cancellation between skywave and ground wave, and therefore they try and
avoid antennas that have a high angle lobe.  I'm pretty sure that's why the
AM broadcast stations that tried such things as a 5/8 wave length radiator
determined that this caused phase cancellation problems between ground wave
and skywave and abandoned radiators that were this tall.  (I might have
some of the exact details incorrect, but believe I have listed the general
problem they ran into which caused them to rethink ground wave versus
skywave and their antenna designs).

Don (wd8dsb)

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 9:22 PM Don Kirk  wrote:

> Hi Rick,
>
> I use a 68 foot base loaded vertical on 160 meters, but I also use 3
> different pennant RX antennas.  Unless it's ground wave, my 160 meter TX
> vertical is often deaf for stations in adjacent states that are in close to
> me (say 100 to 200 miles away).  Sometimes I can barely hear these stations
> on my TX antenna, but when I switch to one of my pennant RX antennas they
> are booming in.  What's also interesting during these period of time is
> that I can hear the stations pretty good regardless of what pennant I'm
> using (pennant pointed 40 degrees, pennant pointed 160 degrees or pennant
> pointed 270 degrees) even though my pennants have very good front to back
> ratio at low elevation angles (but not at very high elevations angles), and
> this is a good indication that NVIS is at play.  The modeled elevation
> pattern of my TX vertical compared with my RX Pennants appears to explain
> this phenomena (certainly does not contradict it).  Therefore during
> stateside contests it sure appears I could benefit by using an NVIS TX
> antenna for working these stations that are in close (adjacent states).
>
> I have never observed this phenomena when copying DX stations, or stations
> US stations far away.
>
> I posted the following information on my pennant website many years ago,
> and it still holds true based on massive amounts of time I spent on 160
> meters.
>
> --
>
> *Typical skywave signal to noise improvement on 160 meters using my
> pennants compared with my TX vertical*
>
> 0 to 1500 miles = 6 dB (and often much more for stations within 200 miles
> depending on NVIS)
> 2000 miles = 3 dB
> 4000 miles or more = 1 to 3 dB (Note : most often 2 dB, but sometimes
> only 1 dB) Revised Jan 25, 2016
>
> (The above numbers are just approximations based on many hours of
> comparison testing of my pennants versus my TX vertical antenna on 160
> meters.)
>
>
>
> --
> Just FYI, and 73,TX
> Don (wd8dsb)
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 8:38 PM Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3/1/2020 5:26 PM, Mike Waters wrote:
>> > However, during stateside contests such as the ARRL 160, not having some
>> > NVIS would be a disadvantage.
>> >
>> > 73, Mike
>> > W0BTU
>> >
>>
>> How come AM broadcast stations don't need NVIS?
>>
>> Rick N6RK
>> _
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>>
>
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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Don Kirk]

Hi Rick,

I use a 68 foot base loaded vertical on 160 meters, but I also use 3
different pennant RX antennas.  Unless it's ground wave, my 160 meter TX
vertical is often deaf for stations in adjacent states that are in close to
me (say 100 to 200 miles away).  Sometimes I can barely hear these stations
on my TX antenna, but when I switch to one of my pennant RX antennas they
are booming in.  What's also interesting during these period of time is
that I can hear the stations pretty good regardless of what pennant I'm
using (pennant pointed 40 degrees, pennant pointed 160 degrees or pennant
pointed 270 degrees) even though my pennants have very good front to back
ratio at low elevation angles (but not at very high elevations angles), and
this is a good indication that NVIS is at play.  The modeled elevation
pattern of my TX vertical compared with my RX Pennants appears to explain
this phenomena (certainly does not contradict it).  Therefore during
stateside contests it sure appears I could benefit by using an NVIS TX
antenna for working these stations that are in close (adjacent states).

I have never observed this phenomena when copying DX stations, or stations
US stations far away.

I posted the following information on my pennant website many years ago,
and it still holds true based on massive amounts of time I spent on 160
meters.
--

*Typical skywave signal to noise improvement on 160 meters using my
pennants compared with my TX vertical*

0 to 1500 miles = 6 dB (and often much more for stations within 200 miles
depending on NVIS)
2000 miles = 3 dB
4000 miles or more = 1 to 3 dB (Note : most often 2 dB, but sometimes only
1 dB) Revised Jan 25, 2016

(The above numbers are just approximations based on many hours of
comparison testing of my pennants versus my TX vertical antenna on 160
meters.)


--
Just FYI, and 73,TX
Don (wd8dsb)

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 8:38 PM Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:

> On 3/1/2020 5:26 PM, Mike Waters wrote:
> > However, during stateside contests such as the ARRL 160, not having some
> > NVIS would be a disadvantage.
> >
> > 73, Mike
> > W0BTU
> >
>
> How come AM broadcast stations don't need NVIS?
>
> Rick N6RK
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Jim Brown]

On 3/1/2020 5:26 PM, Mike Waters wrote:

However, during stateside contests such as the ARRL 160, not having some
NVIS would be a disadvantage.


Optimum height for NVIS on 160 is about 110 ft.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/1/2020 5:26 PM, Mike Waters wrote:

However, during stateside contests such as the ARRL 160, not having some
NVIS would be a disadvantage.

73, Mike
W0BTU



How come AM broadcast stations don't need NVIS?

Rick N6RK
_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/1/2020 5:21 PM, K9FD wrote:


I bought a supply from Mouser a month or two ago,  they had some on 
order,  probably all gone

by now as the word gets around.

73 Merv K9FD


I just ordered some from Mouser; "March 30" ship date.
Over 4000 were supposedly available.  Get 'em while you can!

Rick N6RK
_
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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Mike Waters]

Hi Ed,

I forget what I said, but I am in full agreement with this. :-)

However, during stateside contests such as the ARRL 160, not having some
NVIS would be a disadvantage.

73, Mike
W0BTU

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020, 11:38 AM Ed Sawyer  wrote:

> Mike, I am not sure where you find your information, but  ALL of the
> radiation of a T top vertical is vertically polarized assuming the T
> section
> is balanced.  The whole point of the T is that the horizontal portions of
> the radiation cancel themselves out because they are 180 degs out of phase.
> Providing loading but not distorting the vertical pattern and not using
> that
> wasted horizontal energy.
>
> An inverted L, while simple, is exactly the opposite. A portion of the
> energy is in the vertical section and a portion in the horizontal section.
> ...
_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[K9FD]

Many of those Chinese ones are plain junk,   if you measure them they re 
no where close to a
good 5109.    They just silk screen the number on the top of "generic" 
parts.
If you use them test them before putting them in use,  will save a lot 
of trouble shooting time.


I bought a supply from Mouser a month or two ago,  they had some on 
order,  probably all gone

by now as the word gets around.

73 Merv K9FD

There's no shortage of 2N5109s on eBay for about one dollar each


www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=2n5109&_sacat=0&_sop=15


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "VE6WZ_Steve" 
To: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
Cc: "Topband" 
Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 11:56:39 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

Hi Rick,

Yes, the 2N5109s are almost un-obtainium now, but a few months ago Mouser 
stocked them and maybe DigiKey, but now they are out-of-stock. Even the 2N3866 
substitute is hard to find.
Over the years (2 decades) I have built at least 10 of these amps, and still 
have a supply of a dozen or so 2N5109 devices, and since these devices are 
almost indestructible, I’ll likely never run out! You are correct that this is 
a problem with this design.

Thanks for the E-field amp link….nice…perhaps another project to build!

I like KiCad a lot. super easy to learn. I had never use a PC board program, 
but I was able to learn KiCad from scratch in one evening!

de steve ve6wz




Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)

The 2N5109 is just about extinct. Did you secure a
source for it before you laid out your PC board? If
you did, please share it with the rest of us. Most
people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with
varying degrees of success. Are you possibly doing
that? Of course those substitutes are not in a
hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid
out for differently for them.

You might want to look at these references for
so-called "E-field" arrays of whip antennas:

A military design:

https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf

Various improvements to the above:

http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf

You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site.

They go beyond the DXE design.

Good luck with your project.

BTW, how do you like KICAD? I'm currently using a grandfathered
EAGLE 7.7 perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD.

73
Rick N6RK

_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Mike Waters]

I see they're all from China. Perhaps from Wuhan? ; -)

73, Mike
W0BTU

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020, 6:30 PM  wrote:

> There's no shortage of 2N5109s on eBay for about one dollar each
>
>
> www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=2n5109&_sacat=0&_sop=15
>
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "VE6WZ_Steve" 
> To: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
> Cc: "Topband" 
> Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 11:56:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board
>
> Hi Rick,
>
> Yes, the 2N5109s are almost un-obtainium now, but a few months ago Mouser
> stocked them and maybe DigiKey, but now they are out-of-stock. Even the
> 2N3866 substitute is hard to find.
> Over the years (2 decades) I have built at least 10 of these amps, and
> still have a supply of a dozen or so 2N5109 devices, and since these
> devices are almost indestructible, I’ll likely never run out! You are
> correct that this is a problem with this design.
>
> Thanks for the E-field amp link….nice…perhaps another project to build!
>
> I like KiCad a lot. super easy to learn. I had never use a PC board
> program, but I was able to learn KiCad from scratch in one evening!
>
> de steve ve6wz
>
>
>
> >
> > Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)
> >
> > The 2N5109 is just about extinct. Did you secure a
> > source for it before you laid out your PC board? If
> > you did, please share it with the rest of us. Most
> > people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with
> > varying degrees of success. Are you possibly doing
> > that? Of course those substitutes are not in a
> > hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid
> > out for differently for them.
> >
> > You might want to look at these references for
> > so-called "E-field" arrays of whip antennas:
> >
> > A military design:
> >
> >
> https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf
> >
> > Various improvements to the above:
> >
> >
> http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf
> >
> > You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site.
> >
> > They go beyond the DXE design.
> >
> > Good luck with your project.
> >
> > BTW, how do you like KICAD? I'm currently using a grandfathered
> > EAGLE 7.7 perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD.
> >
> > 73
> > Rick N6RK
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Mike Waters]

Mouser is going to have over 4600 Central Semiconductor 2N5109 BJTs at the
end of this month. :-)

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Central-Semiconductor/2N5109?qs=sGAEpiMZZMshyDBzk1%2FWiw99kSkYzPxmkl%252BSQJuBJrk%3D

73, Mike
W0BTU

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020, 5:55 PM Larry  wrote:

> RE: 2N5109 replacement
>
> With my supply of 2N5109's getting low, I looked long and hard at
> suitable replacement parts.
>
> There just isn't anything made in a leaded package that's worth while.
>
> I did find a rather generic power transistor in a "large" SMD package
> that works quite well in my preamps for the MF and LF ranges.
>
> The DCP68 (and for those who need a PNP DCP69) has proven to be somewhat
> better than the 5109 in this application with a measured NF averaging
> 4.5 dB vs. the 5.5 dB of the 5109.
>
> I have, in fact, soldered pigtails on the SMD part and stuck it in place
> of the 5109 on existing boards (with suitable heat sink).
>
> I'm happy with the part but of course YMMV!
>
> 73,
>
> Larry - W7IUV
>
>
> On 3/1/2020 3:31 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 3/1/2020 2:22 PM, VE6WZ_Steve wrote:
> >> Just like some guys enjoy woodworking and making furniture that they
> >> may not really need, I like to build radio things just for the fun of
> >> the project even though I may not really “need” it.  For three years I
> >> have been using the original 9 circle RX array kit that I bought from
> >> DX-engineering, and it has performed well, but I wanted to build my
> >> own and add my own design tweaks.
> >>
> >> Using KiCad, I have designed and built a 9 circle RX array combiner
> >> with a 2N5109 pre-amplifier integrated onto the same board.
> >>
> >
> >> 73, de steve ve6wz
> >> _
> >>
> >
> > Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)
> >
> > The 2N5109 is just about extinct.  Did you secure a
> > source for it before you laid out your PC board?  If
> > you did, please share it with the rest of us.  Most
> > people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with
> > varying degrees of success.  Are you possibly doing
> > that?  Of course those substitutes are not in a
> > hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid
> > out for differently for them.
> >
> > You might want to look at these references for
> > so-called "E-field" arrays of whip antennas:
> >
> > A military design:
> >
> >
> https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf
> >
> >
> > Various improvements to the above:
> >
> >
> http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf
> >
> >
> > You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site.
> >
> > They go beyond the DXE design.
> >
> > Good luck with your project.
> >
> > BTW, how do you like KICAD?  I'm currently using a grandfathered
> > EAGLE 7.7 perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD.
> >
> > 73
> > Rick N6RK
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[donovanf]

One advantage of using Ebay is their excellent refund policies if 
you get cheated. I've used it many times and never suffered a loss. 
But you have only two weeks to file a claim. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  
To: donov...@starpower.net, "Topband"  
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 12:44:39 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board 


On 3/1/2020 4:30 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: 
> There's no shortage of 2N5109s on eBay for about one dollar each 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=2n5109&_sacat=0&_sop=15 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 

Considering that Motorola ceased production in the year 2000, 
most of these are obviously fakes based on the date codes 
shown in the photos. They also don't look like any real 
one I've ever seen. Caveat emptor! 

Rick N6RK 

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/1/2020 4:30 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

There's no shortage of 2N5109s on eBay for about one dollar each


www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=2n5109&_sacat=0&_sop=15


73
Frank
W3LPL



Considering that Motorola ceased production in the year 2000,
most of these are obviously fakes based on the date codes
shown in the photos.  They also don't look like any real
one I've ever seen.  Caveat emptor!

Rick N6RK
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Larry]

Beware of ebay 5109's. Most, if not all, from Chinese vendors are 
counterfeit. They usually don't work well, if at all, in place of a real 
5109.


Larry - W7IUV



On 3/1/2020 4:30 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

There's no shortage of 2N5109s on eBay for about one dollar each



_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[donovanf]

There's no shortage of 2N5109s on eBay for about one dollar each 


www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=2n5109&_sacat=0&_sop=15 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "VE6WZ_Steve"  
To: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  
Cc: "Topband"  
Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 11:56:39 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board 

Hi Rick, 

Yes, the 2N5109s are almost un-obtainium now, but a few months ago Mouser 
stocked them and maybe DigiKey, but now they are out-of-stock. Even the 2N3866 
substitute is hard to find. 
Over the years (2 decades) I have built at least 10 of these amps, and still 
have a supply of a dozen or so 2N5109 devices, and since these devices are 
almost indestructible, I’ll likely never run out! You are correct that this is 
a problem with this design. 

Thanks for the E-field amp link….nice…perhaps another project to build! 

I like KiCad a lot. super easy to learn. I had never use a PC board program, 
but I was able to learn KiCad from scratch in one evening! 

de steve ve6wz 



> 
> Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-) 
> 
> The 2N5109 is just about extinct. Did you secure a 
> source for it before you laid out your PC board? If 
> you did, please share it with the rest of us. Most 
> people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with 
> varying degrees of success. Are you possibly doing 
> that? Of course those substitutes are not in a 
> hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid 
> out for differently for them. 
> 
> You might want to look at these references for 
> so-called "E-field" arrays of whip antennas: 
> 
> A military design: 
> 
> https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf
>  
> 
> Various improvements to the above: 
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf
>  
> 
> You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site. 
> 
> They go beyond the DXE design. 
> 
> Good luck with your project. 
> 
> BTW, how do you like KICAD? I'm currently using a grandfathered 
> EAGLE 7.7 perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD. 
> 
> 73 
> Rick N6RK 

_ 
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector 

_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[VE6WZ_Steve]

Hi Rick,

Yes, the 2N5109s are almost un-obtainium now, but a few months ago Mouser 
stocked them and maybe DigiKey, but now they are out-of-stock.  Even the 2N3866 
substitute is hard to find.
Over the years (2 decades) I have built at least 10 of these amps, and still 
have a supply of a dozen or so 2N5109 devices, and since these devices are 
almost indestructible, I’ll likely never run out!  You are correct that this is 
a problem with this design.

Thanks for the E-field amp link….nice…perhaps another project to build!

I like KiCad a lot. super easy to learn.  I had never use a PC board program, 
but I was able to learn KiCad from scratch in one evening!

de steve ve6wz



> 
> Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)
> 
> The 2N5109 is just about extinct.  Did you secure a
> source for it before you laid out your PC board?  If
> you did, please share it with the rest of us.  Most
> people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with
> varying degrees of success.  Are you possibly doing
> that?  Of course those substitutes are not in a
> hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid
> out for differently for them.
> 
> You might want to look at these references for
> so-called "E-field" arrays of whip antennas:
> 
> A military design:
> 
> https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf
> 
> Various improvements to the above:
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf
> 
> You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site.
> 
> They go beyond the DXE design.
> 
> Good luck with your project.
> 
> BTW, how do you like KICAD?  I'm currently using a grandfathered
> EAGLE 7.7 perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD.
> 
> 73
> Rick N6RK

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Larry]

RE: 2N5109 replacement

With my supply of 2N5109's getting low, I looked long and hard at 
suitable replacement parts.


There just isn't anything made in a leaded package that's worth while.

I did find a rather generic power transistor in a "large" SMD package 
that works quite well in my preamps for the MF and LF ranges.


The DCP68 (and for those who need a PNP DCP69) has proven to be somewhat 
better than the 5109 in this application with a measured NF averaging 
4.5 dB vs. the 5.5 dB of the 5109.


I have, in fact, soldered pigtails on the SMD part and stuck it in place 
of the 5109 on existing boards (with suitable heat sink).


I'm happy with the part but of course YMMV!

73,

Larry - W7IUV


On 3/1/2020 3:31 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 3/1/2020 2:22 PM, VE6WZ_Steve wrote:
Just like some guys enjoy woodworking and making furniture that they 
may not really need, I like to build radio things just for the fun of 
the project even though I may not really “need” it.  For three years I 
have been using the original 9 circle RX array kit that I bought from 
DX-engineering, and it has performed well, but I wanted to build my 
own and add my own design tweaks.


Using KiCad, I have designed and built a 9 circle RX array combiner 
with a 2N5109 pre-amplifier integrated onto the same board.





73, de steve ve6wz
_



Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)

The 2N5109 is just about extinct.  Did you secure a
source for it before you laid out your PC board?  If
you did, please share it with the rest of us.  Most
people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with
varying degrees of success.  Are you possibly doing
that?  Of course those substitutes are not in a
hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid
out for differently for them.

You might want to look at these references for
so-called "E-field" arrays of whip antennas:

A military design:

https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf 



Various improvements to the above:

http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf 



You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site.

They go beyond the DXE design.

Good luck with your project.

BTW, how do you like KICAD?  I'm currently using a grandfathered
EAGLE 7.7 perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD.

73
Rick N6RK
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Jim Brown]

On 3/1/2020 3:31 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)


I'm super impressed with the great station that Steve has built. Lots of 
great stuff on his website about the station and how he built it. It's 
an example of great systems engineering and construction.


73, Jim K9YC
_
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Re: Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/1/2020 2:22 PM, VE6WZ_Steve wrote:

Just like some guys enjoy woodworking and making furniture that they may not 
really need, I like to build radio things just for the fun of the project even 
though I may not really “need” it.  For three years I have been using the 
original 9 circle RX array kit that I bought from DX-engineering, and it has 
performed well, but I wanted to build my own and add my own design tweaks.

Using KiCad, I have designed and built a 9 circle RX array combiner with a 
2N5109 pre-amplifier integrated onto the same board.




73, de steve ve6wz
_



Now I know why you work stuff I can't even hear :-)

The 2N5109 is just about extinct.  Did you secure a
source for it before you laid out your PC board?  If
you did, please share it with the rest of us.  Most
people are now using substitutes for the 2N5109 with
varying degrees of success.  Are you possibly doing
that?  Of course those substitutes are not in a
hermetic metal can, so the PC board has to be laid
out for differently for them.

You might want to look at these references for
so-called "E-field" arrays of whip antennas:

A military design:

https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3522.pdf

Various improvements to the above:

http://home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Complementary%20Push-Pull%20Amplifiers.pdf

You also find a lot of other good stuff on Chris's site.

They go beyond the DXE design.

Good luck with your project.

BTW, how do you like KICAD?  I'm currently using a grandfathered
EAGLE 7.7 perpetual license, but "some day" I might switch to KICAD.

73
Rick N6RK
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Jim Brown]

On 2/27/2020 8:23 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Your conclusions based on your modelling are completely consistent
with my practical experience and modelling.


My experience with building what I model or modeling what I've built has 
been that if I've built the model to accurately represent ALL of 
reality, the model correlates well with how the antenna works. This 
applies equally to matching networks and other circuitry.


In my professional life, I did pretty complex models for the large sound 
systems I designed, often including acoustic models of large public 
spaces where they would be installed. The sound system models were an 
order of magnitude more complex than most antenna systems, and the 
acoustic models an order of magnitude more complex than the sound system 
model. Again, results were as good (or as bad) as the data that I put 
into the model.


And in my third year of EE, '61-'62) my coop job was crunching numbers 
for Pete Johnson for his designs of multi-tower AM broadcast arrays. 
Pete and Carl Smith (Cleveland Radio and Electronics Institute) wrote 
the FCC technical Rules for the AM band after WWII. Four of us sat 
around a conference room table with slide rules and math tables filling 
very wide paper spreadsheets with 25-30 columns of numbers, each column 
being the result of one step in the calc. The calc was repeated for 
every 5 degrees of azimuth and 5 degrees of elevation. It could take 
days to finish a pattern. Pete would study the results, change a 
variable or two (magnitude and phase of current in elements, move the 
towers around, etc) and we'd do it all again. In 2020, the same model 
could be computed in the laptop on most of our desks in a few minutes.


73, Jim K9YC

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[Charles Moizeau]

I would prefer to have the horizontal radiation canceled by using an inverted 
T, but I haven't discovered a workable configuration to achieve that.  
Therefore I use an inverted L with a vertical leg of 86', the most I can get.  
I have no serious limitations on the length of the horizontal leg and I chose 
68'.  I  did that in order to place the current maximum (always a quarter 
wavelength, 128' assumed, back from the open end of any antenna) at the 
midpoint of the vertical leg, thus getting as much rf current as I can into the 
vertical leg.  This also gives me the convenience of only using a vacuum 
capacitor the bring the feedpoint impedance down to 50 Ohms.

I must say that I have a lingering doubt about this arrangement.  That is 
because my in-ground radial system has no radials longer than 150'.  By raising 
the maximum current point to 43' above ground level the rf that bounces off the 
ground and needs to be returned to the feedpoint will occur farther out from 
the feedpoint than would be the case of an antenna with a vertical leg still at 
86' but now with a horizontal leg of just 42'.  That would put the current 
maximum at ground level where the existing radial field would have its best 
effect.  It would also reduce the radiation from the horizontal leg.  Of course 
a different matching network would be needed.

I would welcome any comments on this reasoning.

73,

Charles, W2SH

From: Topband  on behalf of Ed 
Sawyer 
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 12:37
To: topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

Mike, I am not sure where you find your information, but  ALL of the
radiation of a T top vertical is vertically polarized assuming the T section
is balanced.  The whole point of the T is that the horizontal portions of
the radiation cancel themselves out because they are 180 degs out of phase.
Providing loading but not distorting the vertical pattern and not using that
wasted horizontal energy.



An inverted L, while simple, is exactly the opposite. A portion of the
energy is in the vertical section and a portion in the horizontal section.
On 160M, whatever the length is of the horizontal section, its not desired
energy for DX work.  Although it may actually be helpful as a more
all-around antenna for local and DX work for this reason.



The smaller the ratio of horizontal to vertical, the less this compromise
exists.  However very few stations that say they are using an inverted L on
160 have 100ft plus of it vertical.  Much more typical is 50 - 75 ft.  And
the horizontal portion is usually longer, sometime a lot longer, than the
vertical portion.



Ed  N1UR





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Topband: 9 circle RX array combiner board

[VE6WZ_Steve]

Just like some guys enjoy woodworking and making furniture that they may not 
really need, I like to build radio things just for the fun of the project even 
though I may not really “need” it.  For three years I have been using the 
original 9 circle RX array kit that I bought from DX-engineering, and it has 
performed well, but I wanted to build my own and add my own design tweaks.

Using KiCad, I have designed and built a 9 circle RX array combiner with a 
2N5109 pre-amplifier integrated onto the same board.

The phase/combiner circuit and direction switching is the same as that designed 
by John W1FV which was developed with the YCCC and marketed by DX-engineering 
(no longer sold). The pre-amplifier is the 2N5109 circuit developed and refined 
by Larry W7IUV.

I made a YouTube video to show what I did.  I know some guys may not like 
watching videos, but I spent my professional career writing technical papers 
and I have no interest in doing that anymore (I am NOT an engineer, I am a 
geologist).  I can make a video pretty quick and cover most of the basics.

In the video I describe the board layout and explain the basics of how the 
combiner works. I talk about the basic construction methods I use, but this is 
NOT a step-by-step "how to build it" project. If you want to build one of 
these, please carefully read and understand the great documentation that was 
provided by the YCCC (link provided) so you can build the transformers and wire 
things correctly.  This video is only meant to share what I did and provide 
anyone interested with the PCB file if they want to build their own.

On the YouTube page I have a link to the KiCad PCB file if you want to order 
your own boards (I order my boards from OSH park) and a link to an EXCEL file 
for a parts list BOM.

YouTube video here: https://youtu.be/utyJt_Clp3M 

73, de steve ve6wz
_
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Re: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

[HA3LN]

Hi All,

What if I use 2x flat tops instead of one spaced evenly?
If I recall correctly this config has 60% of length of the single one.

Does this solve the degradation effect?

73!
Csaba  HA3LN / HG3N



On 2020-02-28 5:23, donov...@starpower.net wrote:

Hi Ed,


Your conclusions based on your modelling are completely consistent
with my practical experience and modelling.


The most likely degradation is a T-top between 60 and 75 feet long
degrading the front-to-back ratio, pattern and gain of a 40 meter
Yagi when its main beam points into a T-top that's roughly parallel
to the 40 meter Yagi elements.


Only the 40 meter Yagi is affected, especially if the Yagi is within
about 400 feet of a 160 meter T-vertical with a 60-75 foot T-top.
The 160M T-vertical is not affected.


How to avoid degradation of a 40 meter Yagi?
- avoid T-tops between 50 and 75 feet long, or
- use an inverted-L rather then a T-vertical


All of the above is based on actual degradation of my 3 element 40M
Yagi by a 160M T-vertical 40 years ago. Changing the T-vertical to an
inverted-L returned the 40M Yagi to its prior excellent performance


tks


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "Ed Sawyer" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 2:47:34 AM
Subject: Topband: T Top Verticals and yagis

Frank had brought up the interaction of certain T top loading wires and the
possible interaction with yagis. I played around with modelling on this and
found that just as Frank said, there is interaction of T top wires and
yagis. One thing I found was that if the wire is in the front pattern of
the yagi it is much more influenced if the wire is the front 1/3 portion
rather than the sides and back of the yagi. I didn't find meaningful
distortion in the back area 200 ft away but closer than that and approaching
the front, and there was definite distortion.



Interesting topic Frank.



Ed N1UR

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