Re: Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[Michael Tope]

I just happen to have a spare MFJ-1026 at home. I did a real quick test 
using my FT1000MP MK-V while powering the MFJ-1026 from an Astron 
supply. Similar to your results, Steve, I got about a 12 to 14 dB 
increase in the noise floor on 10 meters when the MFJ unit was turned on 
and connected to the MK-V's main antenna input versus when the MFJ unit 
was powered off. This suggests you would have to resort to having 
low-noise pre-amps ahead of each of the MFJ-102x two signal paths and 
the right amount of attenuation after the MFJ-102x's combined output to 
work in your particular very low noise situation.


Since the main antenna path is normally bypassed for transmit, to put a 
pre-amp ahead of the main antenna path you would have to either move 
that MFJ-102x out of the transmit path by putting it in a receive-path 
breakout-loop that is common on many modern transceivers (e.g. between 
RX_OUT and RX_IN jacks), or you would have to have add a dedicated T/R 
bypass scheme for the external main path pre-amp.


FWIW, I also made some gain measurement on my MFJ-1026 (both main and 
sense path gain controls fully clockwise):


Main Antenna Path Gain:
10 Meters: 4dB
15 Meters: 3dB

Sense Antenna Path Gain (sense-path pre-amp on and internal jumpers set 
for maximum gain):

10 Meters: 0.5dB
15 Meters: 1.6dB

Difference between having Sense Path Pre-Amp On vs Off:
10 Meters: 8dB
15 Meters: 9dB

I used an Elecraft XG3 as the signal source and an HP141T to measure 
amplitude.


73, Mike W4EF...




On 3/16/2020 9:47 AM, Steve London wrote:

This has been a very interesting thread - Thanks for all the input.

Perhaps I have set my expectations too high.

A typical application is on 15 meters, late in the opening, working 
JA's from here in SW New Mexico. Absent any local QRN, the band is 
very quiet. Any local noise covers the bottom layer of 5 watt JA's 
calling me.


I did some more testing with the MFJ-1025. With no antennas connected, 
the box raises the noise floor about 10 dB, irrespective of the Aux 
Antenna Gain or the Main Antenna Gain. I haven't yet tried powering 
from a battery, to make sure the power supply isn't the source. 
Assuming the J310's are quiet, that leaves the 2N5109 emitter 
follower, or the back-to-back protection diodes. Might also try 
disconnecting the RF sense circuit.


73,
Steve, N2IC
_
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Reflector


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Re: Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[sawyered]

I remember having some experience with that MFJ-1026 a number of years ago
and found the trade off of increased noise floor vs cancelling not worth the
effort.  Trading one evil for another evil.  Obviously, when confronted with
noise mitigation, everything is on the table.

 

Ed  N1UR

_
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Re: Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[Dave Cuthbert]

Mike, thank and these are great data points you've provided.

Questions:
Was the MFJ-1026 PHASE control set near zero? That could account for the
low AUX gain.

*Mike's data*
FT1000MP MK-V

Main Antenna Path Gain:
10 Meters: 4dB
15 Meters: 3dB

Sense Antenna Path Gain (sense-path pre-amp on and internal jumpers set
for maximum gain):
10 Meters: 0.5dB
15 Meters: 1.6dB

12 to 14 dB increase in the noise floor on 10 meters when the MFJ unit was
turned on

*MFJ-1026 MAIN measured noise and calculations*
Sherwood Engineering measured the FT-1000 MP MKV Field at -133 dBm in 500
Hz BW. This is -160 dBm in 1 Hz, or 2.2 nV/Hz^0.5.

The 12 to 14 dB increase in the noise floor with the MFJ-1026 activated
tells us its output noise power is ~13 dB above -133 dBm, or -120 dBm in
500 Hz BW. This is -147 dBm, or *10 nV/H^0.5.* Given the measured AUX path
gain of 0.5 dB this tells us the MFJ-1026 AUX input-referred noise is *~9
nV/Hz* on 10 meters. But wait, there's more.

In my March 16 email I said "The MFJ-1025 [calculated] output noise is* 9
nV/Hz^0.5."* But, given the MFJ-1026 measured AUX gain of 0.5 dB (10
meters) when I estimated 14 dB AUX gain (20 meters) is a huge discrepancy.
This points to the phase shifter circuit attenuating the signal. Might the
PHASE control knob be set to 0? This attenuates the AUX path.

*Notes*
The MFJ-1025 and MJF-1026 use the same circuit with the 1026 adding a whip
antenna amplifier.

*References*
https://www.mfjenterprises.com/support.php?productid=MFJ-1026

http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

http://www.sherweng.com/documents/TermsExplainedSherwoodTableofReceiverPerformance-RevF.pdf


Dave KH6AQ

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 4:07 AM Michael Tope  wrote:

> I just happen to have a spare MFJ-1026 at home. I did a real quick test
> using my FT1000MP MK-V while powering the MFJ-1026 from an Astron
> supply. Similar to your results, Steve, I got about a 12 to 14 dB
> increase in the noise floor on 10 meters when the MFJ unit was turned on
> and connected to the MK-V's main antenna input versus when the MFJ unit
> was powered off. This suggests you would have to resort to having
> low-noise pre-amps ahead of each of the MFJ-102x two signal paths and
> the right amount of attenuation after the MFJ-102x's combined output to
> work in your particular very low noise situation.
>
> Since the main antenna path is normally bypassed for transmit, to put a
> pre-amp ahead of the main antenna path you would have to either move
> that MFJ-102x out of the transmit path by putting it in a receive-path
> breakout-loop that is common on many modern transceivers (e.g. between
> RX_OUT and RX_IN jacks), or you would have to have add a dedicated T/R
> bypass scheme for the external main path pre-amp.
>
> FWIW, I also made some gain measurement on my MFJ-1026 (both main and
> sense path gain controls fully clockwise):
>
> Main Antenna Path Gain:
> 10 Meters: 4dB
> 15 Meters: 3dB
>
> Sense Antenna Path Gain (sense-path pre-amp on and internal jumpers set
> for maximum gain):
> 10 Meters: 0.5dB
> 15 Meters: 1.6dB
>
> Difference between having Sense Path Pre-Amp On vs Off:
> 10 Meters: 8dB
> 15 Meters: 9dB
>
> I used an Elecraft XG3 as the signal source and an HP141T to measure
> amplitude.
>
> 73, Mike W4EF...
>
>
>
>
> On 3/16/2020 9:47 AM, Steve London wrote:
> > This has been a very interesting thread - Thanks for all the input.
> >
> > Perhaps I have set my expectations too high.
> >
> > A typical application is on 15 meters, late in the opening, working
> > JA's from here in SW New Mexico. Absent any local QRN, the band is
> > very quiet. Any local noise covers the bottom layer of 5 watt JA's
> > calling me.
> >
> > I did some more testing with the MFJ-1025. With no antennas connected,
> > the box raises the noise floor about 10 dB, irrespective of the Aux
> > Antenna Gain or the Main Antenna Gain. I haven't yet tried powering
> > from a battery, to make sure the power supply isn't the source.
> > Assuming the J310's are quiet, that leaves the 2N5109 emitter
> > follower, or the back-to-back protection diodes. Might also try
> > disconnecting the RF sense circuit.
> >
> > 73,
> > Steve, N2IC
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> > Reflector
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
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Re: Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[Mike Waters]

Tom Rauch, W8JI has a nice webpage dedicated to the MFJ-1025/1026 at
https://www.w8ji.com/mfj-1025_1026.htm.

A few relevant excerpts follow.

"The only drawback of the higher noise floor of the MFJ-1025/1026 is you *must
place it after any amplifiers used with low-level low-noise antennas*. The
MFJ-1025/1026 noise floor is typically around 14dB."


"The MFJ1025 series, despite being manufactured as inexpensively as
possible, outperforms any other unit I have tested (by a large margin) over
its intended *frequency range of 1.8-20 MHz*.  The exception is the DX
Engineering NCC-1..."

That being the case, shouldn't noise tests be done on 160 or 80 meters,
rather than 10 or 15 meters?

73, Mike
W0BTU
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Re: Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[Mike Waters]

Mike, is there any reason why you tested it above 20 MHz? That's outside
the 1026's specified frequency range.

73, Mike
W0BTU

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 9:07 AM Michael Tope  wrote:

> I just happen to have a spare MFJ-1026 at home. I did a real quick test
> using my FT1000MP MK-V while powering the MFJ-1026 from an Astron
> supply. Similar to your results, Steve, I got about a 12 to 14 dB
> increase in the noise floor on 10 meters when the MFJ unit was turned on
> and connected to the MK-V's main antenna input versus when the MFJ unit
> was powered off. This suggests you would have to resort to having
> low-noise pre-amps ahead of each of the MFJ-102x two signal paths and
> the right amount of attenuation after the MFJ-102x's combined output to
> work in your particular very low noise situation.
>
> Since the main antenna path is normally bypassed for transmit, to put a
> pre-amp ahead of the main antenna path you would have to either move
> that MFJ-102x out of the transmit path by putting it in a receive-path
> breakout-loop that is common on many modern transceivers (e.g. between
> RX_OUT and RX_IN jacks), or you would have to have add a dedicated T/R
> bypass scheme for the external main path pre-amp.
>
> FWIW, I also made some gain measurement on my MFJ-1026 (both main and
> sense path gain controls fully clockwise):
>
> Main Antenna Path Gain:
> 10 Meters: 4dB
> 15 Meters: 3dB
>
> Sense Antenna Path Gain (sense-path pre-amp on and internal jumpers set
> for maximum gain):
> 10 Meters: 0.5dB
> 15 Meters: 1.6dB
>
> Difference between having Sense Path Pre-Amp On vs Off:
> 10 Meters: 8dB
> 15 Meters: 9dB
>
> I used an Elecraft XG3 as the signal source and an HP141T to measure
> amplitude.
>
> 73, Mike W4EF...
>
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[Roger Kennedy]

Having just read some of these posts, I just did a few tests on my MFJ-1025.
(bought mine second-hand very cheap - a lot of people buy these thinking
they will get rid of any noise!)

I modified it to become a 1026 . . . you definitely need the extra pre-amp
for the "Noise Antenna", especially on 160m - fortunately they use the same
PCB for both versions, so you can easily add their extra preamp circuit
design on the PCB.

I normally only use mine on 160m . . . but just did a test on 15m & 10m . .
. it adds no noticeable noise whatsoever ! 

So I think the OP's must be faulty . . perhaps powering it by a noisy PSU?

Roger G3YRO



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Re: Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[Jim Brown]

On 3/17/2020 10:26 AM, Mike Waters wrote:

That being the case, shouldn't noise tests be done on 160 or 80 meters,
rather than 10 or 15 meters?


In my tests of my NCC-1, I found it pretty useless above 40M. It 
accommodates optional preamps; it's driven by a K9AY 8x4 matrix 
switcher, which includes his preamps (switchable).


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 3/14/2020 4:07 PM, Jim Brown wrote:


Another good advantage to the electronic schemes is that you don't have 
to go outside to rotate them when the noise that's bothering you is 
coming from a different direction.


73, Jim



That is an interesting idea.

I have been trying to figure out how I could phase two verticals
so as to have a null(s) with steerable azimuth, but I'm stumped.
Using EZNEC modeling two 30 foot monopoles 70 feet apart, I can
drive them 180° out of phase and get a figure 8 pattern like
a broadside loop.  I can drive them 135° out of phase and get
a cardioid pattern that doesn't have a sharp null, but rather
rejects everything off the back of the array.  Other angles
produce variations on these patterns, but not a steerable
null.

I could imagine that an array of 3 or 4 or 6 antennas in a circle
might produce steerable nulls.

Am I missing something?

73
Rick N6RK

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Re: Topband: Slightly OT - amplifier noise

[Mike Waters]

Roger,

I didn't realize that the 1025 (which is what I have) didn't have a preamp
on the auxiliary (noise) antenna input!

I chose the 1025 over the 1026 because I did not want the small whip
antenna, which only works well if you have RFI close to it. If I would have
realized that the 1026 circuit had a preamp, I might have purchased that
instead.

But when I do use it (very rarely), I almost always use a homebrew W7IUV
preamp to feed the noise antenna input, with no issues.

What kind of preamp did you add to your 1025?

73, Mike
W0BTU

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 1:18 PM Roger Kennedy 
wrote:

>
> Having just read some of these posts, I just did a few tests on my
> MFJ-1025.
> (bought mine second-hand very cheap - a lot of people buy these thinking
> they will get rid of any noise!)
>
> I modified it to become a 1026 . . . you definitely need the extra pre-amp
> for the "Noise Antenna", especially on 160m - fortunately they use the same
> PCB for both versions, so you can easily add their extra preamp circuit
> design on the PCB.
>
> I normally only use mine on 160m . . . but just did a test on 15m & 10m . .
> . it adds no noticeable noise whatsoever !
>
> So I think the OP's must be faulty . . perhaps powering it by a noisy PSU?
>
> Roger G3YRO
>
>
_
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Topband: CQ...CQ...CQ

[VE6WZ_Steve]

With many hams around the world staying home and "practicing social distancing” 
to “flatten the CV-19 curve”, what a great time to be on the radio!

Lets get out there and call CQ to stir up the band. (or ANY band for that 
matter)

There may be some out there that somehow think calling CQ is just for the rare 
DX, and not for the average ham.  I know there are many that have no interest 
in woking just “plain old DX” that aren't new DXCC counters.  I also realize 
there are many that live in high noise city locations that have a legitimate 
“alligator risk” by calling CQ.
However, to state the obvious, if no one calls CQ, no one is going to work 
anyone!  The conclusion will be “the band is dead”.

Speaking of another benefit of RBN…..one comment…..”if I look at my waterfall 
and don't see any traces, then the band is dead”. Well….often NOT true.  It is 
not unusual to see a blank pan-adapter, but then when checking the RBN there is 
NO-ONE calling CQ….anywhere in the world!  Is the band really dead?? How do we 
know it's dead if no one is calling? (And yes, there are enough RBN skimmers 
worldwide that almost any CQ will be decoded within a few seconds)  Many nights 
I have CQ'd into a “dead band” (blank pan-adapter, but also no RBN activity) 
and been rewarded with lots of EU DX callers.

There are a number of NA stalwarts calling CQ regularly on TB and a handful 
from EU, VK and JA, but it would be great to see more activity. (last night I 
heard Jon AA1K filling his log with EU). This winter I have worked quite a few 
EU that have been running 100w from backyard antennas so it's not limited to 
the big guns.

For those that lament that everyone is on FT-8, perhaps it would be a good idea 
to get on the band and make some CW noise instead of waiting for some else to 
call CQ???  Thats what the FT-8 guys are doing…they hit the send key on the 
FT-8 program and wait to see what happens.  There is a lot of FT-8 CQing going 
on…every 15 seconds, for hours.  Maybe thats why it seems there is more DX 
being worked on that mode?  This season I have logged 1,587 EU QSOs on CW with 
498 unique callsigns, so CQing can be rewarding. 113 DXCC since August. This 
has been one of the best TB seasons here at VE6WZ.  The season is not over yet.

While stuck at home, turn on the radio and call CQ….on ANY band.  See what 
happens.  Kinda like “old school” radio…using the “legacy" mode.
CQ..CQ…CQ…..
Why not?

73, de steve ve6wz


_
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Re: Topband: CQ...CQ...CQ

[Hugh Valentine]

Great Idea!!!
Keeps Ham O Holics Alive

Val

Sent from Mail for Windows 10


From: Topband  on behalf of 
VE6WZ_Steve 
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 7:15:02 PM
To: topband 
Subject: Topband: CQ...CQ...CQ

With many hams around the world staying home and "practicing social distancing” 
to “flatten the CV-19 curve”, what a great time to be on the radio!

Lets get out there and call CQ to stir up the band. (or ANY band for that 
matter)

There may be some out there that somehow think calling CQ is just for the rare 
DX, and not for the average ham.  I know there are many that have no interest 
in woking just “plain old DX” that aren't new DXCC counters.  I also realize 
there are many that live in high noise city locations that have a legitimate 
“alligator risk” by calling CQ.
However, to state the obvious, if no one calls CQ, no one is going to work 
anyone!  The conclusion will be “the band is dead”.

Speaking of another benefit of RBN…..one comment…..”if I look at my waterfall 
and don't see any traces, then the band is dead”. Well….often NOT true.  It is 
not unusual to see a blank pan-adapter, but then when checking the RBN there is 
NO-ONE calling CQ….anywhere in the world!  Is the band really dead?? How do we 
know it's dead if no one is calling? (And yes, there are enough RBN skimmers 
worldwide that almost any CQ will be decoded within a few seconds)  Many nights 
I have CQ'd into a “dead band” (blank pan-adapter, but also no RBN activity) 
and been rewarded with lots of EU DX callers.

There are a number of NA stalwarts calling CQ regularly on TB and a handful 
from EU, VK and JA, but it would be great to see more activity. (last night I 
heard Jon AA1K filling his log with EU). This winter I have worked quite a few 
EU that have been running 100w from backyard antennas so it's not limited to 
the big guns.

For those that lament that everyone is on FT-8, perhaps it would be a good idea 
to get on the band and make some CW noise instead of waiting for some else to 
call CQ???  Thats what the FT-8 guys are doing…they hit the send key on the 
FT-8 program and wait to see what happens.  There is a lot of FT-8 CQing going 
on…every 15 seconds, for hours.  Maybe thats why it seems there is more DX 
being worked on that mode?  This season I have logged 1,587 EU QSOs on CW with 
498 unique callsigns, so CQing can be rewarding. 113 DXCC since August. This 
has been one of the best TB seasons here at VE6WZ.  The season is not over yet.

While stuck at home, turn on the radio and call CQ….on ANY band.  See what 
happens.  Kinda like “old school” radio…using the “legacy" mode.
CQ..CQ…CQ…..
Why not?

73, de steve ve6wz


_
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Re: Topband: CQ...CQ...CQ

[Carl Mannle]

Yes, lets do it, Carl, N6TVN.

On 3/17/20 4:15 PM, VE6WZ_Steve wrote:

With many hams around the world staying home and "practicing social distancing” 
to “flatten the CV-19 curve”, what a great time to be on the radio!

Lets get out there and call CQ to stir up the band. (or ANY band for that 
matter)

There may be some out there that somehow think calling CQ is just for the rare 
DX, and not for the average ham.  I know there are many that have no interest 
in woking just “plain old DX” that aren't new DXCC counters.  I also realize 
there are many that live in high noise city locations that have a legitimate 
“alligator risk” by calling CQ.
However, to state the obvious, if no one calls CQ, no one is going to work 
anyone!  The conclusion will be “the band is dead”.

Speaking of another benefit of RBN…..one comment…..”if I look at my waterfall 
and don't see any traces, then the band is dead”. Well….often NOT true.  It is 
not unusual to see a blank pan-adapter, but then when checking the RBN there is 
NO-ONE calling CQ….anywhere in the world!  Is the band really dead?? How do we 
know it's dead if no one is calling? (And yes, there are enough RBN skimmers 
worldwide that almost any CQ will be decoded within a few seconds)  Many nights 
I have CQ'd into a “dead band” (blank pan-adapter, but also no RBN activity) 
and been rewarded with lots of EU DX callers.

There are a number of NA stalwarts calling CQ regularly on TB and a handful 
from EU, VK and JA, but it would be great to see more activity. (last night I 
heard Jon AA1K filling his log with EU). This winter I have worked quite a few 
EU that have been running 100w from backyard antennas so it's not limited to 
the big guns.

For those that lament that everyone is on FT-8, perhaps it would be a good idea 
to get on the band and make some CW noise instead of waiting for some else to 
call CQ???  Thats what the FT-8 guys are doing…they hit the send key on the 
FT-8 program and wait to see what happens.  There is a lot of FT-8 CQing going 
on…every 15 seconds, for hours.  Maybe thats why it seems there is more DX 
being worked on that mode?  This season I have logged 1,587 EU QSOs on CW with 
498 unique callsigns, so CQing can be rewarding. 113 DXCC since August. This 
has been one of the best TB seasons here at VE6WZ.  The season is not over yet.

While stuck at home, turn on the radio and call CQ….on ANY band.  See what happens.  
Kinda like “old school” radio…using the “legacy" mode.
CQ..CQ…CQ…..
Why not?

73, de steve ve6wz


_
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_
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Topband: Receiver protectors.

[jim]

In a thread back in January, 2020 on connecting receive antennas for top
band, a few fellows mentioned a review that I wrote in 2014, where I
compared the DEO RG‐2000M and DXE RG‐5000 Receiver Protectors.



I have updated my review with new measurements, additional theory of
operation, more details and some bug fixes.  If anyone is interested, it is
at https://www.w8wts.radio/RXProtectorsREV03-2020.pdf.  I hope that people
find it interesting.



Be safe everyone - stay home and get on the air.



73,



Jim, W8WTS



_
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Re: Topband: CQ...CQ...CQ

[lennart.michaelsson]

Hi Steve and all,
Well, I  got on 160 around 0300 local while still dark outside, listened and 
called CQ DX. Only one more guy QRV - OM12XW. 
Nothing - nada.

Maybe tmw?

Greetings
Len SM7BIC

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Topband  
För VE6WZ_Steve
Skickat: den 18 mars 2020 00:15
Till: topband 
Ämne: Topband: CQ...CQ...CQ

With many hams around the world staying home and "practicing social distancing” 
to “flatten the CV-19 curve”, what a great time to be on the radio!

Lets get out there and call CQ to stir up the band. (or ANY band for that 
matter)

There may be some out there that somehow think calling CQ is just for the rare 
DX, and not for the average ham.  I know there are many that have no interest 
in woking just “plain old DX” that aren't new DXCC counters.  I also realize 
there are many that live in high noise city locations that have a legitimate 
“alligator risk” by calling CQ.
However, to state the obvious, if no one calls CQ, no one is going to work 
anyone!  The conclusion will be “the band is dead”.

Speaking of another benefit of RBN…..one comment…..”if I look at my waterfall 
and don't see any traces, then the band is dead”. Well….often NOT true.  It is 
not unusual to see a blank pan-adapter, but then when checking the RBN there is 
NO-ONE calling CQ….anywhere in the world!  Is the band really dead?? How do we 
know it's dead if no one is calling? (And yes, there are enough RBN skimmers 
worldwide that almost any CQ will be decoded within a few seconds)  Many nights 
I have CQ'd into a “dead band” (blank pan-adapter, but also no RBN activity) 
and been rewarded with lots of EU DX callers.

There are a number of NA stalwarts calling CQ regularly on TB and a handful 
from EU, VK and JA, but it would be great to see more activity. (last night I 
heard Jon AA1K filling his log with EU). This winter I have worked quite a few 
EU that have been running 100w from backyard antennas so it's not limited to 
the big guns.

For those that lament that everyone is on FT-8, perhaps it would be a good idea 
to get on the band and make some CW noise instead of waiting for some else to 
call CQ???  Thats what the FT-8 guys are doing…they hit the send key on the 
FT-8 program and wait to see what happens.  There is a lot of FT-8 CQing going 
on…every 15 seconds, for hours.  Maybe thats why it seems there is more DX 
being worked on that mode?  This season I have logged 1,587 EU QSOs on CW with 
498 unique callsigns, so CQing can be rewarding. 113 DXCC since August. This 
has been one of the best TB seasons here at VE6WZ.  The season is not over yet.

While stuck at home, turn on the radio and call CQ….on ANY band.  See what 
happens.  Kinda like “old school” radio…using the “legacy" mode.
CQ..CQ…CQ…..
Why not?

73, de steve ve6wz


_
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_
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