Re: Topband: Summer Stew Perry

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 6/21/2020 3:41 PM, List Mail wrote:

I worked K7RAT (with some difficulty) and that was all.




Luke VK3HJ



From California, the band was basically only active
from sunset until about 0500Z, at which point K7RAT
was the last man standing, and it didn't seem like
he had much rate.  He was something like 40 dB over
S9 here!   After CQing for 10 minutes without
any calls, I went QRT.  Only ZL was in the dark by
then.  I was too tired to stay up until VK was in
darkness.

For the brief time when there was some activity, the
propagation to the east coast was great.  A dozen or
two stations in the FM grid field were easily worked.  After
the contest, I got an email from an Ohio station
saying I was the only station he heard west of the
Mississippi.  So maybe I was in the spotlight.
Come to think of it, I didn't heard any east
coast stations CQ'ing.  They were all responding
to my CQ.

K7RAT to some extent made up for KV4FZ not being
there :-(  He was often the last man standing in this
contest.

Anyway, I think we have established that the band
works just fine at our Summer Solstice and we just
need more activity for this contest.  Before this
contest was started a few years ago, I had the
mistaken impression that the band was dead in the summer.

Rick N6RK
_
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Re: Topband: Summer Stew Perry

[List Mail]

I worked K7RAT (with some difficulty) and that was all.

The only other decent signal on the band was K3EST, but he was in the AA 
Contest.


Top Band contests are a hard row to hoe from VK, even now in mid winter.

73,

Luke VK3HJ

-Original Message- 
From: Roger Kennedy

Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 8:06 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Summer Stew Perry


Good to work a few of you in the Contest last night . . .

Shame there weren't more stations on !

Roger G3YRO




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Topband: Summer Stew Perry

[Roger Kennedy]

Good to work a few of you in the Contest last night . . .

Shame there weren't more stations on !

Roger G3YRO




_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Tuning a 2el parasitic array

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

With the era of cheap VNA's it does seem time to move forward. Especially
with wire yagi's, you can get VNA's with smartphone style 5V USB charged
batteries that talk to a tablet running supplied software, communicating
with bluetooth. You can put the VNA right at the feed, and pull it up in
the air so ground effects are representative and can be watched with
changing elevation. None of the complications of the significant cable
between VNA and the feedpoint.

Zowie, is that way less work than the good ole days. Now I use my lab
calibrated FIM41 field strength meter to do before and after documentation.
And from time to make sure it's still performing by staying at the
benchmark. Not for making adjustments. As Steve mentioned, too much motion
for these old bones.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 3:14 PM VE6WZ_Steve  wrote:

> Hi Rick,
> Yes you can field test for max F/B, but that is far from ”simple” and easy
> to do.  I have done it. Many times over the last 22 years.
>
> With a Yagi on the tower I used both an external source as well as an
> external RX in the field and tried to tune for max F/B.
> Using an external source I also plotted real-time polar plots of the Yagi
> pattern.
> However...In practice, here is how it goes:
> To check F/B….we rotate Yagi forward…record measurement, back to shack,
> rotate Yagi to back, record measurement.  Then guess if we need the
> parasitic longer or shorter… Climb the tower adjust element (or adjust
> lumped load at the element). test again. Guess again….longer maybe? Climb
> tower…adjust.  Meaure-rotate-measure again. Maybe we getting closer to
> optimum? shorter, test…longer test. Are we yet at the maximum F/B or can we
> get a bit more? Climb tower…readjust…etc. etc..  This is especially tedious
> and difficult with a narrow-band shortened low-band Yagi.
> I speak from experience. This method is a lot of work and can take many
> iterations and you will still not be sure.…been there done that!
> The other issue is aberrant ground reflections and wave angle
> considerations depending on your distance from the tower, Yagi height etc.
> My field measured polar plots often showed some funny things and pattern
> distortions.
>
> The method I describe in my video is MUCH easier, and leaves no doubt that
> the antenna is tuned as per your model. I have used it to tune both my
> 80-40M Yagis as well as the 160m parasitic array and subsequent on air test
> confirm they are optimally tuned.  In all cases tuning was quick and easy.
> I honestly cant imagine doing it by field strength testing!
> Understanding how the SWR bandwidth becomes more narrow as you approach
> the max gain point, and comparing this to your model, you can
> even “dial-in” the tuning more to be exactly where you want it.
>
> 73, de steve ve6wz
>
>
> > You should be able to tune up any 2 element array, whether parasitic
> > or driven, by simply putting a signal source behind it and adjusting
> > for max F/B.  Or putting the signal source in front and adjusting for
> > maximum gain.  No analyzer required.  Then,  you can substitute fixed
> components for the variable L's and C's if desired.  This method works even
> if the driven element is a shunt fed grounded tower.  Just use
> > the feed as it was when the tower was just a single vertical.
> >
> > After doing that, you can get out the analyzer and
> > measure the drive impedance of the phasing network and design a
> > simple matching network to go between it and the transmitter.
> >
> > BTW, parasitic arrays seem simpler, but driven arrays (especially
> > 2 element ones) have better F/B ratio ), and broader bandwidth,
> > AFAIK.  YMMV.
> >
> > 73
> > Rick N6RK
>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
_
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Re: Topband: Tuning a 2el parasitic array

[VE6WZ_Steve]

Hi Rick,
Yes you can field test for max F/B, but that is far from ”simple” and easy to 
do.  I have done it. Many times over the last 22 years.

With a Yagi on the tower I used both an external source as well as an external 
RX in the field and tried to tune for max F/B.
Using an external source I also plotted real-time polar plots of the Yagi 
pattern.
However...In practice, here is how it goes:
To check F/B….we rotate Yagi forward…record measurement, back to shack, rotate 
Yagi to back, record measurement.  Then guess if we need the parasitic longer 
or shorter… Climb the tower adjust element (or adjust lumped load at the 
element). test again. Guess again….longer maybe? Climb tower…adjust.  
Meaure-rotate-measure again. Maybe we getting closer to optimum? shorter, 
test…longer test. Are we yet at the maximum F/B or can we get a bit more? Climb 
tower…readjust…etc. etc..  This is especially tedious and difficult with a 
narrow-band shortened low-band Yagi.
I speak from experience. This method is a lot of work and can take many 
iterations and you will still not be sure.…been there done that!
The other issue is aberrant ground reflections and wave angle considerations 
depending on your distance from the tower, Yagi height etc.
My field measured polar plots often showed some funny things and pattern 
distortions.

The method I describe in my video is MUCH easier, and leaves no doubt that the 
antenna is tuned as per your model. I have used it to tune both my 80-40M Yagis 
as well as the 160m parasitic array and subsequent on air test confirm they are 
optimally tuned.  In all cases tuning was quick and easy.  I honestly cant 
imagine doing it by field strength testing!
Understanding how the SWR bandwidth becomes more narrow as you approach the max 
gain point, and comparing this to your model, you can 
even “dial-in” the tuning more to be exactly where you want it.

73, de steve ve6wz


> You should be able to tune up any 2 element array, whether parasitic
> or driven, by simply putting a signal source behind it and adjusting
> for max F/B.  Or putting the signal source in front and adjusting for
> maximum gain.  No analyzer required.  Then,  you can substitute fixed 
> components for the variable L's and C's if desired.  This method works even 
> if the driven element is a shunt fed grounded tower.  Just use
> the feed as it was when the tower was just a single vertical.
> 
> After doing that, you can get out the analyzer and
> measure the drive impedance of the phasing network and design a
> simple matching network to go between it and the transmitter.
> 
> BTW, parasitic arrays seem simpler, but driven arrays (especially
> 2 element ones) have better F/B ratio ), and broader bandwidth,
> AFAIK.  YMMV.
> 
> 73
> Rick N6RK

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Tuning a 2el parasitic array

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 6/21/2020 7:06 AM, VE6WZ_Steve wrote:

This morning I uploaded a YouTube video explaining the method for tuning any 
2el parasitic array.

I do some experiments in my workshop using the Nano-VNA on a small 2 el Yagi to 
explain mutual coupling. Then using 4NEC2 I show the relationship between the 
dip in real R (point of maximum coupling) and the F/B and gain of the array.

Using this understanding any 2 el parasitic array can be tuned with confidence 
on the tower by only sweeping the driver with the antenna analyzer.  There is 
no need to isolated the driven element and do analyzer sweeps on the parasitic 
element. This method is especially useful for tuning arrays with non-split or 
grounded parasitic or driven elements.

This is the method I used for tuning my 2 el 160m parasitic array that uses the 
shunt-fed (grounded) tower as a driver.

https://youtu.be/2DcvmGPLdT0 

73, de steve ve6wz
_


You should be able to tune up any 2 element array, whether parasitic
or driven, by simply putting a signal source behind it and adjusting
for max F/B.  Or putting the signal source in front and adjusting for
maximum gain.  No analyzer required.  Then,  you can substitute fixed 
components for the variable L's and C's if desired.  This method works 
even if the driven element is a shunt fed grounded tower.  Just use

the feed as it was when the tower was just a single vertical.

After doing that, you can get out the analyzer and
measure the drive impedance of the phasing network and design a
simple matching network to go between it and the transmitter.

BTW, parasitic arrays seem simpler, but driven arrays (especially
2 element ones) have better F/B ratio ), and broader bandwidth,
AFAIK.  YMMV.

73
Rick N6RK
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Sloping Ground

[Jim Brown]

On 6/21/2020 6:53 AM, Sam Josuweit wrote:

Is the move to sloping ground worth the extra work and
coax loss??


You've had a lot of good advice. I'll simply add that the loss in coax 
is pretty low at 1.8 MHz. For your 620 ft run of LMR400, slightly less 
than 1 dB. I would expect the advantage of the hilltop location to be 
significantly more than that.


73, Jim K9YC
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Topband: Alpha 76PA - SOLD

[rick darwicki via Topband]

The amp has found a good hope

Rick N6PE









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Re: Topband: Sloping Ground

[Sam Josuweit]

Thanks Steve,

 

I ran a very similar analysis using the data from Low Band Dxing and HFTA 
plots. It’s good to hear your real world experience. I think some trenching is 
in my future.

 

Sam(N3XZ)

 

 

From: VE6WZ_Steve [mailto:ve...@shaw.ca] 
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 11:26 AM
To: Sam Josuweit
Cc: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Sloping Ground

 

Sam,

Yes…I think it would be worth it!

My purpose built low-band remote QTH is on a prominent hill surrounded by 
farmland in all directions.  My QTH at the crest of the hill is about 300’ 
above the surrounding land and it slopes gentle in all directions.  Also my 
Beverage arrays mostly all slope down the hill in each direction.

Anecdotally the QTH seems to perform very well fro DX.

 

Here is a somewhat qualitative analysis of my hilltop QTH using some data from 
the ON4UN low-band DXing book where he talks about verticals on sloping 
terrain. I make some comparisons to my QTH.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UP45c5MWaWvA0T9no4DHW060FSgC-3Pk/view?usp=sharing

I think its reasonable that some exceptional low-angle take-off angles can be 
achieved when located on a hill.  It may be even possible to approach the 
low-angles seen from sea-side verticals…but NOT the gain seen by a saltwater 
location. The “vertical over sloping terrain” data from Johns book would 
suggest low-angle gain that would be almost impossible to achieve on flat land. 
(up to +11 dB at 3 deg angle)

The caveat to this is whether the long-haul DX wave angles really do arrive as 
low as predicted.

 

73, de steve ve6wz

 

 

Looking for some advice from some of you who have been there and done that
before. I'm looking at moving my 160M inverted L to a new location that
would be approximately 100 feet ASL higher and be on top of a hill with
nearly perfect sloping ground in all directions. This would change my coax
run length from 130 feet to 620 feet. I'm looking at LMR400 to meet my loss
and budget needs. Is the move to sloping ground worth the extra work and
coax loss??

 

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Sloping Ground

[VE6WZ_Steve]

Sam,
Yes…I think it would be worth it!
My purpose built low-band remote QTH is on a prominent hill surrounded by 
farmland in all directions.  My QTH at the crest of the hill is about 300’ 
above the surrounding land and it slopes gentle in all directions.  Also my 
Beverage arrays mostly all slope down the hill in each direction.
Anecdotally the QTH seems to perform very well fro DX.

Here is a somewhat qualitative analysis of my hilltop QTH using some data from 
the ON4UN low-band DXing book where he talks about verticals on sloping 
terrain. I make some comparisons to my QTH.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UP45c5MWaWvA0T9no4DHW060FSgC-3Pk/view?usp=sharing
 

I think its reasonable that some exceptional low-angle take-off angles can be 
achieved when located on a hill.  It may be even possible to approach the 
low-angles seen from sea-side verticals…but NOT the gain seen by a saltwater 
location. The “vertical over sloping terrain” data from Johns book would 
suggest low-angle gain that would be almost impossible to achieve on flat land. 
(up to +11 dB at 3 deg angle)
The caveat to this is whether the long-haul DX wave angles really do arrive as 
low as predicted.

73, de steve ve6wz


> Looking for some advice from some of you who have been there and done that
> before. I'm looking at moving my 160M inverted L to a new location that
> would be approximately 100 feet ASL higher and be on top of a hill with
> nearly perfect sloping ground in all directions. This would change my coax
> run length from 130 feet to 620 feet. I'm looking at LMR400 to meet my loss
> and budget needs. Is the move to sloping ground worth the extra work and
> coax loss??

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Sloping Ground

[John Harden, D.M.D.]

I had a 160 meter inverted V up at 90 for a number of years. Sometimes it 
worked but overall it was useless. I took it down years ago. 

Now, I use a Hi-Z 8 and Waller Flag at 95 feet for receive and a 100 ft shunt 
fed tower for XMIT.
It is all light years ahead of the Inverted V...




Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 21, 2020, at 10:18 AM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband 
>  wrote:
> 
> My place in Hawaii was sloped more than about 99% of all locations...a drop 
> of 1100 feet to sea level around 6000 feet away.  It does make a difference.  
> I had the same slope up hill as down and i can tell you 100% for sure the 
> slope makes a difference.  I used a bent full size vertical wire  for 160 and 
> downhiull was far better. It would be worth the extra coax if you had a 
> pretty significant slope.
> 
> Bill K4XS/KH7XS
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Josuweit 
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Sent: Sun, Jun 21, 2020 1:53 pm
> Subject: Topband: Sloping Ground
> 
> Looking for some advice from some of you who have been there and done that
> before. I'm looking at moving my 160M inverted L to a new location that
> would be approximately 100 feet ASL higher and be on top of a hill with
> nearly perfect sloping ground in all directions. This would change my coax
> run length from 130 feet to 620 feet. I'm looking at LMR400 to meet my loss
> and budget needs. Is the move to sloping ground worth the extra work and
> coax loss??
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sam(N3XZ)
> 
> 
> 
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
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Topband: Tuning a 2el parasitic array

[VE6WZ_Steve]

This morning I uploaded a YouTube video explaining the method for tuning any 
2el parasitic array.

I do some experiments in my workshop using the Nano-VNA on a small 2 el Yagi to 
explain mutual coupling. Then using 4NEC2 I show the relationship between the 
dip in real R (point of maximum coupling) and the F/B and gain of the array.

Using this understanding any 2 el parasitic array can be tuned with confidence 
on the tower by only sweeping the driver with the antenna analyzer.  There is 
no need to isolated the driven element and do analyzer sweeps on the parasitic 
element. This method is especially useful for tuning arrays with non-split or 
grounded parasitic or driven elements.

This is the method I used for tuning my 2 el 160m parasitic array that uses the 
shunt-fed (grounded) tower as a driver.

https://youtu.be/2DcvmGPLdT0 

73, de steve ve6wz
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Sloping Ground

[cqtestk4xs--- via Topband]

My place in Hawaii was sloped more than about 99% of all locations...a drop of 
1100 feet to sea level around 6000 feet away.  It does make a difference.  I 
had the same slope up hill as down and i can tell you 100% for sure the slope 
makes a difference.  I used a bent full size vertical wire  for 160 and 
downhiull was far better. It would be worth the extra coax if you had a pretty 
significant slope.

Bill K4XS/KH7XS

-Original Message-
From: Sam Josuweit 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Sun, Jun 21, 2020 1:53 pm
Subject: Topband: Sloping Ground

Looking for some advice from some of you who have been there and done that
before. I'm looking at moving my 160M inverted L to a new location that
would be approximately 100 feet ASL higher and be on top of a hill with
nearly perfect sloping ground in all directions. This would change my coax
run length from 130 feet to 620 feet. I'm looking at LMR400 to meet my loss
and budget needs. Is the move to sloping ground worth the extra work and
coax loss??

 

Thanks

Sam(N3XZ)

 

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Topband: Sloping Ground

[Sam Josuweit]

Looking for some advice from some of you who have been there and done that
before. I'm looking at moving my 160M inverted L to a new location that
would be approximately 100 feet ASL higher and be on top of a hill with
nearly perfect sloping ground in all directions. This would change my coax
run length from 130 feet to 620 feet. I'm looking at LMR400 to meet my loss
and budget needs. Is the move to sloping ground worth the extra work and
coax loss??

 

Thanks

Sam(N3XZ)

 

_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: qsl request for GU3WHN

[WW3S]

anyone know if the logs/qsls are available for GU3WHN? Sadly, it looks 
like Mike has gone silent key.

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Topband: logs for TG7/OH3JF

[WW3S]

Anyone know how to qsl this op from 2004? I tried Jukka, the qsl 
manager, but he doesnt have the logs now, and emails to Henry OH3JF have 
gone unanswered. Anyone know OH3JF for a better email address?

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