Topband: 160m new BOG array
Hey gentlemen, today signals from NA were very strong. Worked any stations from NA. The new phased BOG array perfoms really good compared to the single BOG. It is very quiet and a good replacement in summer to the beverages. https://www.dl8las.com/newshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya3vgVfkCLM 73 Andy DL8LAS www.dl8las.com www.swing-company-bigband.de/ www.uni-big-band-kiel.de/ _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
I was QRV one morning when W1FV was working JAs on a skewed path. At that time, he mentioned he was hearing them skewed to the west. When he was seeing a skewed path, I was seeing a direct path here about 125 miles NE from his QTH. I have long beverages aimed at 260, 290 and 330 degrees. I was seeing the best signals on the 330 degree beverage. The others were much weaker. I don't know how to evaluate that. At the time, I was too busy to worry about where the signals were arriving from. I was just happy to finally hear some JA stations that were loud! Dave K1WHS On 6/3/2021 2:21 PM, Don Kirk wrote: Hi John, Hard for me to argue your purely vertical antenna system skewed observations. Thanks as always. Don (wd8dsb) On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 2:06 PM John Kaufmann wrote: On 160 and 80, I have an 8-circle vertical receiving array. On very long paths, it is not uncommon to see skewing. The most common example is the path to JA, where the direct path heading should be about 330 degrees from my QTH in New England. However, for the last couple winter seasons, when the path has been open, it has almost always been skewed to the west or west northwest. It has been quite rare to have a true direct path to JA on either 160 or 80 from here. Because my array is strictly vertically polarized with no horizontal component, the skewing appears to be occurring in the vertical polarization dimension. I don't have a directional horizontal antenna to compare here. Coinciding with this skewing to JA has been the almost complete absence of a true northerly path over the pole into Asia, primarily zone 18. In other solar cycles, the over-the-pole path has opened for at least one or two seasons at the bottom of the cycle, but not this most recent cycle. I might suspect there is some local source of skewing at my QTH that is deflecting signals from the direct path heading, yet from time to time my array does receive DX signals over the true short path to the northwest. In particular, KL7's are sometimes received from the correct NNW heading on 160 and 80. For that reason, I tend to discount the possibility of locally generated skewing. 73, John W1FV _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
It is easy to model a low dipole on EZNEC, provided that you do need to set "Display Options" to Horizontal AND Vertical. Then you will see a nice figure 8 pattern broadside to the dipole for horizontally polarized signals and a 90 degree rotated pattern (otherwise identical) for vertical polarization where the dipole receives local vertically polarized noise off the ends. Both polarizations have elevation patterns of the cloud warmer type, for any practical ham radio height. This explains why a low dipole RX antenna may by luck reject a local noise source at a fortuitous broadside azimuth and therefore do great things on receive, while other times the noise source is in an "unlucky" direction off one of the ends, then the same low dipole does nothing great. All of this has nothing to do with any far field skewed propagation, etc., that you might also have. --- Rick Karlquist N6RK _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
Hi John, Hard for me to argue your purely vertical antenna system skewed observations. Thanks as always. Don (wd8dsb) On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 2:06 PM John Kaufmann wrote: > On 160 and 80, I have an 8-circle vertical receiving array. On very long > paths, it is not uncommon to see skewing. The most common example is the > path to JA, where the direct path heading should be about 330 degrees from > my QTH in New England. However, for the last couple winter seasons, when > the path has been open, it has almost always been skewed to the west or > west > northwest. It has been quite rare to have a true direct path to JA on > either 160 or 80 from here. Because my array is strictly vertically > polarized with no horizontal component, the skewing appears to be occurring > in the vertical polarization dimension. I don't have a directional > horizontal antenna to compare here. > > Coinciding with this skewing to JA has been the almost complete absence of > a > true northerly path over the pole into Asia, primarily zone 18. In other > solar cycles, the over-the-pole path has opened for at least one or two > seasons at the bottom of the cycle, but not this most recent cycle. > > I might suspect there is some local source of skewing at my QTH that is > deflecting signals from the direct path heading, yet from time to time my > array does receive DX signals over the true short path to the northwest. > In > particular, KL7's are sometimes received from the correct NNW heading on > 160 > and 80. For that reason, I tend to discount the possibility of locally > generated skewing. > > 73, John W1FV > > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
Hi James, I left a word out, and I have now added the word into my below text (I added the word horizontal). Yes, multipath is certainly a variable, and I'm actually trying to include something that's not outwardly obvious regarding the directional response of a receive antenna related to horizontal polarization versus vertical polarization which is something I had never before considered (I'm not trying to exclude anything), and I don't recall it being discussed before. I suspect the signal is changing polarity frequently (probably rapidly) and probably often appears like circular polarization, etc. so it's a very complex picture. Thanks, Don (wd8dsb) On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 1:30 PM Don Kirk wrote: > Hi James, > > Yes, multipath is certainly a variable, and I'm actually trying to include > something that's not outwardly obvious regarding the directional response > of a receive antenna related to polarization versus vertical polarization > which is something I had never before considered (I'm not trying to exclude > anything), and I don't recall it being discussed before. I suspect the > signal is changing polarity frequently (probably rapidly) and probably > often appears like circular polarization, etc. so it's a very complex > picture. > > Thanks, > Don (wd8dsb) > > On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 12:57 PM James Wolf wrote: > >> Don't dismiss the possibility of multipath reflections. >> >> Jim - KR9U >> >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+jbwolf=comcast@contesting.com] >> On >> Behalf Of Don Kirk >> Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 9:10 AM >> To: topband >> Subject: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. >> Horizontal/Vertical Polarization) >> >> While playing around with my portable flag that I designed for MF/HF radio >> direction finding, I noticed something that confused me for about a year, >> and I finally figured out what's going on which led me to think about the >> 160 meter skewed path comments I've seen over the years and wonder if some >> of the observed phenomena is really Vertical versus Horizontal >> polarization >> of the received signal and not really a skewed path. >> >> There is a local 10 meter beacon that uses an attic dipole and my portable >> flag as well as my tuned and untuned direction finding loops always >> indicate >> the signal is located approximately 350 degrees from my QTH >> whereas I know this is not correct. The beacon WA4OTD is actually >> located >> 8.6 miles away at a heading of 267 degrees (I'm almost 90 degrees off from >> the correct herading). >> >> Then a few weeks ago I noticed that when my good friend Jay (W9TC) was >> operating on 20 meters that my portable flag did not point in the correct >> direction of his house, and he's located 2.8 miles from my QTH and he uses >> horizontal beams on 20 meters. I then orientated my portable flag so it >> was >> horizontal versus the normal vertical orientation that I use, and "bingo" >> the portable flag now indicated the correct direction. I then went back >> and >> obtained a heading on the WA4OTD beacon on 10 meters with the portable >> flag >> orientated horizontal, and now it points the correct direction (mystery >> solved). >> >> I then went and looked at various antenna models using 4NEC2 in which I >> looked at the vertical gain versus horizontal gain of the antennas when >> mounted in their normal orientation, and this explained what I was seeing. >> Small loop antennas mounted vertical have a maximum horizontal gain that's >> shifted 90 degrees from the maximum vertical gain direction. I then >> modeled >> beverage antennas and their maximum horizontal gain is shifted 45 degrees >> from their maximum vertical gain direction. >> >> I suspect the polarization of received signals on 160 meters is constantly >> changing, but wonder if the skewed path observations over the years >> indicates the polarization of the received signal has shifted to >> predominantly horizontal versus vertical or a mix of both? Maybe a crazy >> thought, but thought I should share my observations with the topband >> group. >> >> I've not really had a problem tracking down typical local noise sources on >> MF/HF using my portable DF antennas orientated for vertical polarization, >> and that confirms the many comments that local noise on MF/HF are >> typically >> propagated vertically, but thought my observation was very interesting and >> it unlocked a year long mystery about the local signals that were >> intentionally transmitted using horizontal polarization that did not track >> well with DF gear that normally does a phenomenal job. >> >> P.S. it took me a while to figure out how to look at vertical gain versus >> horizontal gain using 4NEC2, but it was sure worth the effort. Normally >> 4NEC2 displays total gain. >> >> Just FYI, and can't wait for the comments to come flooding in about my >> crazy >> idea :) 73, Don (wd8dsb) _ Searchable Archiv
Re: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
On 160 and 80, I have an 8-circle vertical receiving array. On very long paths, it is not uncommon to see skewing. The most common example is the path to JA, where the direct path heading should be about 330 degrees from my QTH in New England. However, for the last couple winter seasons, when the path has been open, it has almost always been skewed to the west or west northwest. It has been quite rare to have a true direct path to JA on either 160 or 80 from here. Because my array is strictly vertically polarized with no horizontal component, the skewing appears to be occurring in the vertical polarization dimension. I don't have a directional horizontal antenna to compare here. Coinciding with this skewing to JA has been the almost complete absence of a true northerly path over the pole into Asia, primarily zone 18. In other solar cycles, the over-the-pole path has opened for at least one or two seasons at the bottom of the cycle, but not this most recent cycle. I might suspect there is some local source of skewing at my QTH that is deflecting signals from the direct path heading, yet from time to time my array does receive DX signals over the true short path to the northwest. In particular, KL7's are sometimes received from the correct NNW heading on 160 and 80. For that reason, I tend to discount the possibility of locally generated skewing. 73, John W1FV _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
Hi James, Yes, multipath is certainly a variable, and I'm actually trying to include something that's not outwardly obvious regarding the directional response of a receive antenna related to polarization versus vertical polarization which is something I had never before considered (I'm not trying to exclude anything), and I don't recall it being discussed before. I suspect the signal is changing polarity frequently (probably rapidly) and probably often appears like circular polarization, etc. so it's a very complex picture. Thanks, Don (wd8dsb) On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 12:57 PM James Wolf wrote: > Don't dismiss the possibility of multipath reflections. > > Jim - KR9U > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+jbwolf=comcast@contesting.com] > On > Behalf Of Don Kirk > Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 9:10 AM > To: topband > Subject: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. > Horizontal/Vertical Polarization) > > While playing around with my portable flag that I designed for MF/HF radio > direction finding, I noticed something that confused me for about a year, > and I finally figured out what's going on which led me to think about the > 160 meter skewed path comments I've seen over the years and wonder if some > of the observed phenomena is really Vertical versus Horizontal polarization > of the received signal and not really a skewed path. > > There is a local 10 meter beacon that uses an attic dipole and my portable > flag as well as my tuned and untuned direction finding loops always > indicate > the signal is located approximately 350 degrees from my QTH > whereas I know this is not correct. The beacon WA4OTD is actually located > 8.6 miles away at a heading of 267 degrees (I'm almost 90 degrees off from > the correct herading). > > Then a few weeks ago I noticed that when my good friend Jay (W9TC) was > operating on 20 meters that my portable flag did not point in the correct > direction of his house, and he's located 2.8 miles from my QTH and he uses > horizontal beams on 20 meters. I then orientated my portable flag so it > was > horizontal versus the normal vertical orientation that I use, and "bingo" > the portable flag now indicated the correct direction. I then went back > and > obtained a heading on the WA4OTD beacon on 10 meters with the portable flag > orientated horizontal, and now it points the correct direction (mystery > solved). > > I then went and looked at various antenna models using 4NEC2 in which I > looked at the vertical gain versus horizontal gain of the antennas when > mounted in their normal orientation, and this explained what I was seeing. > Small loop antennas mounted vertical have a maximum horizontal gain that's > shifted 90 degrees from the maximum vertical gain direction. I then > modeled > beverage antennas and their maximum horizontal gain is shifted 45 degrees > from their maximum vertical gain direction. > > I suspect the polarization of received signals on 160 meters is constantly > changing, but wonder if the skewed path observations over the years > indicates the polarization of the received signal has shifted to > predominantly horizontal versus vertical or a mix of both? Maybe a crazy > thought, but thought I should share my observations with the topband group. > > I've not really had a problem tracking down typical local noise sources on > MF/HF using my portable DF antennas orientated for vertical polarization, > and that confirms the many comments that local noise on MF/HF are typically > propagated vertically, but thought my observation was very interesting and > it unlocked a year long mystery about the local signals that were > intentionally transmitted using horizontal polarization that did not track > well with DF gear that normally does a phenomenal job. > > P.S. it took me a while to figure out how to look at vertical gain versus > horizontal gain using 4NEC2, but it was sure worth the effort. Normally > 4NEC2 displays total gain. > > Just FYI, and can't wait for the comments to come flooding in about my > crazy > idea :) 73, Don (wd8dsb) _ Searchable Archives: > http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector > > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
Don't dismiss the possibility of multipath reflections. Jim - KR9U -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+jbwolf=comcast@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 9:10 AM To: topband Subject: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization) While playing around with my portable flag that I designed for MF/HF radio direction finding, I noticed something that confused me for about a year, and I finally figured out what's going on which led me to think about the 160 meter skewed path comments I've seen over the years and wonder if some of the observed phenomena is really Vertical versus Horizontal polarization of the received signal and not really a skewed path. There is a local 10 meter beacon that uses an attic dipole and my portable flag as well as my tuned and untuned direction finding loops always indicate the signal is located approximately 350 degrees from my QTH whereas I know this is not correct. The beacon WA4OTD is actually located 8.6 miles away at a heading of 267 degrees (I'm almost 90 degrees off from the correct herading). Then a few weeks ago I noticed that when my good friend Jay (W9TC) was operating on 20 meters that my portable flag did not point in the correct direction of his house, and he's located 2.8 miles from my QTH and he uses horizontal beams on 20 meters. I then orientated my portable flag so it was horizontal versus the normal vertical orientation that I use, and "bingo" the portable flag now indicated the correct direction. I then went back and obtained a heading on the WA4OTD beacon on 10 meters with the portable flag orientated horizontal, and now it points the correct direction (mystery solved). I then went and looked at various antenna models using 4NEC2 in which I looked at the vertical gain versus horizontal gain of the antennas when mounted in their normal orientation, and this explained what I was seeing. Small loop antennas mounted vertical have a maximum horizontal gain that's shifted 90 degrees from the maximum vertical gain direction. I then modeled beverage antennas and their maximum horizontal gain is shifted 45 degrees from their maximum vertical gain direction. I suspect the polarization of received signals on 160 meters is constantly changing, but wonder if the skewed path observations over the years indicates the polarization of the received signal has shifted to predominantly horizontal versus vertical or a mix of both? Maybe a crazy thought, but thought I should share my observations with the topband group. I've not really had a problem tracking down typical local noise sources on MF/HF using my portable DF antennas orientated for vertical polarization, and that confirms the many comments that local noise on MF/HF are typically propagated vertically, but thought my observation was very interesting and it unlocked a year long mystery about the local signals that were intentionally transmitted using horizontal polarization that did not track well with DF gear that normally does a phenomenal job. P.S. it took me a while to figure out how to look at vertical gain versus horizontal gain using 4NEC2, but it was sure worth the effort. Normally 4NEC2 displays total gain. Just FYI, and can't wait for the comments to come flooding in about my crazy idea :) 73, Don (wd8dsb) _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
Surely you would only notice this effect on Ground Wave signals (which is what you were observing), or on VHF. But as soon as signals start bouncing off the Ionosphere, let alone multi-hops of various kinds, I don't believe there is ANY real polarisation of the waves any more. Roger G3YRO _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
I saw the same thing all the time on 144 MHz using my horizontal yagis, while trying to work vertically polarized stations. (usually mobiles with vertical whips.) My yagis would always peak up the vertically polarized stations well off the correct heading. The effect was more noticeable when the mobile was close by. Over paths longer than say 150 miles, the error was not visible. Headings tended to be correct. Dave K1WHS On 6/3/2021 9:09 AM, Don Kirk wrote: While playing around with my portable flag that I designed for MF/HF radio direction finding, I noticed something that confused me for about a year, and I finally figured out what's going on which led me to think about the 160 meter skewed path comments I've seen over the years and wonder if some of the observed phenomena is really Vertical versus Horizontal polarization of the received signal and not really a skewed path. There is a local 10 meter beacon that uses an attic dipole and my portable flag as well as my tuned and untuned direction finding loops always indicate the signal is located approximately 350 degrees from my QTH whereas I know this is not correct. The beacon WA4OTD is actually located 8.6 miles away at a heading of 267 degrees (I'm almost 90 degrees off from the correct herading). Then a few weeks ago I noticed that when my good friend Jay (W9TC) was operating on 20 meters that my portable flag did not point in the correct direction of his house, and he's located 2.8 miles from my QTH and he uses horizontal beams on 20 meters. I then orientated my portable flag so it was horizontal versus the normal vertical orientation that I use, and "bingo" the portable flag now indicated the correct direction. I then went back and obtained a heading on the WA4OTD beacon on 10 meters with the portable flag orientated horizontal, and now it points the correct direction (mystery solved). I then went and looked at various antenna models using 4NEC2 in which I looked at the vertical gain versus horizontal gain of the antennas when mounted in their normal orientation, and this explained what I was seeing. Small loop antennas mounted vertical have a maximum horizontal gain that's shifted 90 degrees from the maximum vertical gain direction. I then modeled beverage antennas and their maximum horizontal gain is shifted 45 degrees from their maximum vertical gain direction. I suspect the polarization of received signals on 160 meters is constantly changing, but wonder if the skewed path observations over the years indicates the polarization of the received signal has shifted to predominantly horizontal versus vertical or a mix of both? Maybe a crazy thought, but thought I should share my observations with the topband group. I've not really had a problem tracking down typical local noise sources on MF/HF using my portable DF antennas orientated for vertical polarization, and that confirms the many comments that local noise on MF/HF are typically propagated vertically, but thought my observation was very interesting and it unlocked a year long mystery about the local signals that were intentionally transmitted using horizontal polarization that did not track well with DF gear that normally does a phenomenal job. P.S. it took me a while to figure out how to look at vertical gain versus horizontal gain using 4NEC2, but it was sure worth the effort. Normally 4NEC2 displays total gain. Just FYI, and can't wait for the comments to come flooding in about my crazy idea :) 73, Don (wd8dsb) _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Interesting observation and comment (Skewed Path Vs. Horizontal/Vertical Polarization)
While playing around with my portable flag that I designed for MF/HF radio direction finding, I noticed something that confused me for about a year, and I finally figured out what's going on which led me to think about the 160 meter skewed path comments I've seen over the years and wonder if some of the observed phenomena is really Vertical versus Horizontal polarization of the received signal and not really a skewed path. There is a local 10 meter beacon that uses an attic dipole and my portable flag as well as my tuned and untuned direction finding loops always indicate the signal is located approximately 350 degrees from my QTH whereas I know this is not correct. The beacon WA4OTD is actually located 8.6 miles away at a heading of 267 degrees (I'm almost 90 degrees off from the correct herading). Then a few weeks ago I noticed that when my good friend Jay (W9TC) was operating on 20 meters that my portable flag did not point in the correct direction of his house, and he's located 2.8 miles from my QTH and he uses horizontal beams on 20 meters. I then orientated my portable flag so it was horizontal versus the normal vertical orientation that I use, and "bingo" the portable flag now indicated the correct direction. I then went back and obtained a heading on the WA4OTD beacon on 10 meters with the portable flag orientated horizontal, and now it points the correct direction (mystery solved). I then went and looked at various antenna models using 4NEC2 in which I looked at the vertical gain versus horizontal gain of the antennas when mounted in their normal orientation, and this explained what I was seeing. Small loop antennas mounted vertical have a maximum horizontal gain that's shifted 90 degrees from the maximum vertical gain direction. I then modeled beverage antennas and their maximum horizontal gain is shifted 45 degrees from their maximum vertical gain direction. I suspect the polarization of received signals on 160 meters is constantly changing, but wonder if the skewed path observations over the years indicates the polarization of the received signal has shifted to predominantly horizontal versus vertical or a mix of both? Maybe a crazy thought, but thought I should share my observations with the topband group. I've not really had a problem tracking down typical local noise sources on MF/HF using my portable DF antennas orientated for vertical polarization, and that confirms the many comments that local noise on MF/HF are typically propagated vertically, but thought my observation was very interesting and it unlocked a year long mystery about the local signals that were intentionally transmitted using horizontal polarization that did not track well with DF gear that normally does a phenomenal job. P.S. it took me a while to figure out how to look at vertical gain versus horizontal gain using 4NEC2, but it was sure worth the effort. Normally 4NEC2 displays total gain. Just FYI, and can't wait for the comments to come flooding in about my crazy idea :) 73, Don (wd8dsb) _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
