Re: Topband: K9ay loop not performing

[Peter Bertini]

I had the same problem with my K9AY loop. Despite being
in a wooded area that seemed to have very damp soil the
earth conductivity was poorer than I had expected.

I added eight short radials under the loops and that made a
huge improvement. I also added some cheap CATV ground
rods to tie the ends of the radials down.  Nulls are fairly
decent at present, but I may try adding some cheap chicken
wire under the loops for the heck of it, as an experiment.
My loops are near wire fencing for a field for a local horse
farm, and the tower and inverted L are about 40 and 60
feet, respectively, away.

I am not sure on the vintage of your loops, but the newer
versions have adjustable termination resistor choices...
I have read where others have found much better results
by changing the terminating resistor to match their own
soil conditions.  Unfortunately mine was a very early
product and only had a few fixed values that is not
remotely selectable.

I think I am blessed with a fairly quiet rural location,
since generally stations are equal on either
the K2AV system compared to the loops.

Pete W1BR
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Ground for K9AY Loop

[Peter Bertini]

I had a similar issue with my K9AY loop.  It was very non directive, even
with a short ground rod.  I added four ground
radials laid under the loops to the apex points where they met
the ground anchors.  That fixed the problem. I also added
four of those cheap TV ground rods at each corner and
tied the ends of the each radial to a rod.  Directivity is
superb now.
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: AM interference on 1840,

[Peter Bertini]

If the problem is related to receiver overload, than a trap at the BCB's
operating frequency will correct the problem.  Unless the problem is
related to a non-linear junction (rusty fence wire, etc.) generating local
IMD or harmonically related signals due to rectification.

If the problem is the actual presence of a harmonic radiating from the BCB
transmitter, than no amount of filtering at the ham's location will cure
the problem.  Using a receive filter on 1860 will attenuate both the
harmonic signal and desired amateur signals.

There can be advantages to having a high pass filter that limits BCB signal
levels, but it will not cure this problem.

The traps belong  at BCB transmitter site if it is a real harmonic..

If I had this problem I would explore using a noise cancelling system (MFJ
or one of the Russian eBay
kits) to try and null the direction the signal is coming
from.

Pete W1BR
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: FCP versus loaded or "T" radialsradials,

[Peter Bertini]

I think Tom, W8JI's main concern with the K2AV was the unbalanced nature of
the feedpoint, due to the short
electrical length of the FCP counterpoise system.  His
observation was that lengthening the counterpoise to
make it resonant would reduce feedpoint voltages.
I think his points were that he felt the FCP was not
a magic bullet, but he never said the system did not
work.

All I know is that my soil is extremely poor. My K9AY
loop array would NOT show any directivity until I added
four ground radials with additional ground rods at the
ends!  Thus, I would wonder how many on ground
radials would be needed to equal the performance of
my FCP?  Second point, any radials would require
placing the vertical radiator in the middle of an area
with large oak and hickory trees, increasing losses.

Everyone's ground conductivity is different.  I would
think it would be difficult to equate the performance
of a minimal radial field based on individual observations.

K2AV's consistent contest scores certainly offer some
validity to the effectiveness of his system.

Pete W1BR
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Awesome 160 Meter Vertical

[Peter Bertini]

You do a search for radio amateurs by city and state.  Here is the list for
Los Angeles, as an example:

http://www.city-data.com/aradio/lic-Los-Angeles-California3.html

If it is a smaller town, it should be easy to identify the ham involved
with that location.

Pete W1BR
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K2AV radiator vertical height....

[Peter Bertini]

4 to 8 ohms seems to be rather low for an inverted L... that seems to be
more in line for a short vertical?  I measured closer to 26 ohms using my
analyzer at resonance.  I'd expect some improvement in R losses, but I was
more curious about the elevation pattern for the system.

Pete
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: K2AV radiator vertical height....

[Peter Bertini]

My K2AV counterpoise is 12 feet off ground, which leaves me with a vertical
run of about 45 feet for the vertical portion of the inverted L.  I've
noticed that the walnut tree I am using for a support has branches that go
up another 25 feet or so... albeit there is a bit more sway in strong winds
the sway is mostly side to side, and pulling on the horizontal run.  I also
have a spring tensioning system in place.  I am considering shooting a
second support line to a higher branch in the tree in an attempt to reach
65 of vertical run for the inverted L.  My question is how much would this
gain for DX contacts?

Pete W1BR (ex k1zjh)
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Found my K9AY by WX0B AX-AYl-4 unit

[Peter Bertini]

I will second the need for short radials if your soil is very poor.  I
installed my K9AY system last fall after it sat new and unused in my shed
for a few years.

The first I noticed that it had very poor rejection of distant signals of
the back of the loops.  I added the suggested radials, and noticed a small
improvement. The loops really started to work when I added a cheap CATV
ground rod at the end of each radial where the loop outer tie down pegs are
located.  I tried adding four more radials, for a total of eight, but if
there was a difference after adding the additional four ground rods it was
not noticeable.
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: FT-8 gentleman's agreement for 160?

[Peter Bertini]

I recall hearing FT8 activity on 1830 kHz last evening ... isn't a bit low
in the band for digital modes?  I hope FT-8 activity doesn't squeeze all of
the CW activity down into the DX portion before the dust settles.

Pete k1zjh
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Inverted L improvements - Part 3 (now with data)

[Peter Bertini]

Indeed, that is what I meant to say.

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 10:03 AM Bruce  wrote:

> You maybe confusing "Radiation Resistance" with "Feed point Resistance".
> It often will lower "Feed point Resistance", but raise "radiation
> Resistance". 73 Bruce
>
> On 1/22/2019 9:45 AM, Peter Bertini wrote:
> > I would think adding radials would lower the Radiation resistance.  Also,
> > the SWR curve should narrow as ground losses are reduced;  since the
> effect
> > of ground loss resistance swamping the results lessens.
> >
> > At some point I suggest, as others, that you get on for the contest and
> see
> > what you can do.  If you can run a bit of power, it will help.  Receiving
> > is indeed the tough nut to crack on 160 Meters.
> >
> > Elevated radials may be worth a shot. I think Mike uses two with good
> > results. I went to a K2AV FCP and it works good enough for my needs. Even
> > with a K9AY loop system receiving is still my weak point.
> >
> > Get on for the contests and have some fun.
> >
> > Pete
> > _
> > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
> >
>
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Inverted L improvements - Part 3 (now with data)

[Peter Bertini]

I would think adding radials would lower the Radiation resistance.  Also,
the SWR curve should narrow as ground losses are reduced;  since the effect
of ground loss resistance swamping the results lessens.

At some point I suggest, as others, that you get on for the contest and see
what you can do.  If you can run a bit of power, it will help.  Receiving
is indeed the tough nut to crack on 160 Meters.

Elevated radials may be worth a shot. I think Mike uses two with good
results. I went to a K2AV FCP and it works good enough for my needs. Even
with a K9AY loop system receiving is still my weak point.

Get on for the contests and have some fun.

Pete
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: elevated radial

[Peter Bertini]

Hello

You want the elevated radials as high as possible.  3 meters is probably as
low as you would want.  5 meters would probably be optimum.

To be effective, the radials would need to be resonant, and you would need
at least two, preferably four.  The current on each radial should be equal.

Any vegetation under the radials may have some effect. Hopefully the corn
is down and harvested before the 160 meter DX season starts.

As was suggested, the K2AV folded counterpoise, when installed as Guy
suggests, is a good compromise that has enabled many hams to get on 160
Meters when they are in locations that are not radial friendly

Peter K1ZJH
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Inverted L improvement question - Part 2

[Peter Bertini]

Todd

If you are interested in experimenting, you could try a K2AV folded
counterpoise under that inverted L.  If installed as recommended, it will
provide a decent counterpoise system.  One advantage to the FCP is that it
is possible to also end fed the system, should that be a requirement.

I was using an inverted L against a tower with random grounding--antenna R
was up in the 80 ohm range.   Over the K2AV, and away from the tower the
antenna R dropped to 26 ohms.  It works good enough for now. I have very
poor ground conductivity, and running a large radial field would be hard
over rocky sandy soil.  I also fed the L over the FCP for  80 meters, an L
Network is switched in to match the antenna, and the FCP counterpoise  is
changed over to 80 meters using surplus Russian vacuum relays.
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Inverted L improvement question - Part 2

[Peter Bertini]

Those SWR readings seem to indicate a very large bandwidth, to the extent
it might suggest that your ground resistance losses are swamping the
antenna R radiation resistance.  It would be nice to know the R value at
resonance, where there is no J value.  Too bad the analyzer is overloading.
A simple BCB filter might help.

Pete k1zjh
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: Ultimate antenna launcher....

[Peter Bertini]

This is a manly solution for launching antennas... just load a frozen carp
and you can cast your antenna line 300 yards! If the carp gets stuck in a
tree, the birds will take care if it.

https://www.facebook.com/InTheKnowInnovationAOL/videos/1912747892351198/?fref=gs=13909010799_location=group
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Three Port Rx antenna splitter

[Peter Bertini]

I'd avoid the TV splitters, quality is all over the place and the lower
frequency limit varies. You would really want to measure the loss at 1.8
MHz before committing to use one.

I've been playing around with satellite TV splitters (most specifically
DirecTV splitters (
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Direct-TV-DTV-Splitter-4-Way/233066815876? )

These are spec'ed from 2 GHz down to 2 MHz and if you shop around you can
find them for a lot less than a new CATV splitter.  The satellite stuff has
to work since it costs them bucks for service calls.

One other advantage is that one port has DC pass through, if you need it.

Pete  k1zjh
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: choke/bleeder resistor on RXvertical?

[Peter Bertini]

A drain resistor would be advisable if there is no DC return path to
earth... if there is no inductor or resistance between the antenna and
earth it can develop wind or snow induced static voltage buildup, which can
lead to discharges that will cause noise in the receiver. Static voltages
can also damage any inline preamps between the vertical and receiver.

Pete
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Pasternack PL259

[Peter Bertini]

Some of the cheap imports may be metric thread.

Regarding N or UHF,  I've switched to good quality crimp fittings eons ago,
and if one buys the proper prep and a quality crimp  tool they are very
reliable.

Pete k1zjh
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: tennis ball launcher for antennas

[Peter Bertini]

I made my own.  There are tons of plans on the internet for spud launchers
or antenna launchers.  The designs are basically the same.  It costs around
60 bucks to make one, only because you will end up with extra material (PVC
tube) that will go along way to making one or two more. These are great
club projects. I used a cheap fishing reel (per W1VD's plans) for mine, and
it spools flawlessly.  The reel is cheap five dollar Amazon special.
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Impedance of inv l?

[Peter Bertini]

For comparison sake...  my inverted L measure 19 ohms over a K2AV FCP.
Increasing the vertical wire height gained another several ohms... ended up
with an R value of 26 ohms at resonance (no reactive component.)

Pete
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: 160m Condx

[Peter Bertini]

Regarding 10 kHz harmonics from BCB stations... last year I was using my
HQ-140 receiver for casual SW and ham monitoring at my computer desk.  With
a full size 160 meter the Hammarlund overloaded to the point where I was
hearing an IMD beatnote at every 10 kHz spot on the band. Fortunately, I
have yet to hear any harmonics from the local stations.

I resorted to using a MFJ preselector to clean it up.  Now I am using my
JRC-515 and that problem is gone, but I miss the warm tubes.

Pete  k1zjh
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY loop -- adding additional radials?

[Peter Bertini]

Gary. if you are still reading this thread. I have a very early K9AY loop
and mast kit.  I believe my relay box was the second version where you went
from DC/AC control to a three wire DC relay voltage system. The antenna
mast kit used galvanized timber spikes, if that helps date the system.

Was there a modification that showed how to separate the antenna ground
return from the coax feedline? I could never find an exact schematic for
the boxes.

 I did use a FT-240-43 toroid at the FP, but I think I need another core
since it filled up fast when winding the control and coax cable. It seems
to be working well, but if there is a way to make it work better I will do
so next summer when I make the installation more permanent.

Pete
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: K9AY loop -- adding additional radials?

[Peter Bertini]

Adding  four  cheap 3/8" 4-ft  TV ground rods--one  at each of  the ends of
each of the 21 foot radials-- did the trick.  The lone ground rod at the
hub was not enough.  Now have good deep nulls in all 4 quadrants.. Adding
four more radials didn't seem to improve things as much as the first set of
radials and the additional ground rods.  Now a happy camper!!
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: YCCC op amp preamp...

[Peter Bertini]

Is there a schematic available online for the YCCC preamp?  I see DX
Engineering is long sold out of kits and I'd like to try dead bugging a few
amplifiers to play with.

Pete
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Topband: K9AY loop -- adding additional radials?

[Peter Bertini]

Hello to the group.  I installed a K9AY system last week and added four 21
foot radials on ground radials with a ground rod at the center.  The
antenna didn't seem to have much directivity, so today I added another four
4-ft inexpensive TV type ground rods at the ends of each of the radials.
We've had some heavy rain, but tonight I am noticing excellent nulls on
European stations when changing directions.  The antenna is located in a
wooded area, and I had assumed the ground was fairly conductive, but
apparently not... would adding another set of four radials in between the
existing four improve the system?  I am not sure how much the change
relates to the heavy rains or adding the grounds.

Pete
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

Re: Topband: Adding chicken wire or mesh on top of radial field

[Peter Bertini]

Why would bonding the added matting be required if it is laid over or
beneath an existing radial field?  It reduces ground losses regardless.

Peter
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 185, Issue 6

[Peter Bertini]

It would be interesting to see if a 75' x  4' run of galvanize poultry
fence laid on the ground
beneath an FCP affected the R ground losses, as seen on an antenna
analyzer.  I read the
ground losses were estimated at 8%; whether 300 sq. ft. of ground screen
would do anything
might be a good experiment.

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:00 PM,  wrote:

> Send Topband mailing list submissions to
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>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Top Beam WF-300 (David Cole)
>2. FCP with mesh (James Denneny)
>3. FW: FCP with mesh (James Denneny)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 16:21:32 + (UTC)
> From: David Cole 
> To: "topband@contesting.com" 
> Subject: Topband: Top Beam WF-300
> Message-ID: <1780652251.2745092.1526401292...@mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hi all - I have a WF-300 for sale - d...@g3rcq.com?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 09:44:53 -0700
> From: James Denneny <57jndenn...@comcast.net>
> To: "topband@contesting.com" 
> Subject: Topband: FCP with mesh
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> I added a K2AV FCP to my inv L last year and saw a significant increase in
> performance.  I added  about 25 new entities this past year and have
> recently reached DXCC on TB.  I do have mesh below FCP.  Soil is average.
> Live on lake.  Water level is high in soil.
>
> 73, Jim K7EG
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 09:47:04 -0700
> From: "James Denneny" <57jndenn...@comcast.net>
> To: 
> Subject: Topband: FW: FCP with mesh
> Message-ID: <010901d3ec6c$5b91a0d0$12b4e270$@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="UTF-8"
>
> Correction: I do NOT have wire mesh under FCP.  Sorry for the typo.
>
>
>
> From: James Denneny <57jndenn...@comcast.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 9:45 AM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: FCP with mesh
>
>
>
>
>
> I added a K2AV FCP to my inv L last year and saw a significant increase in
> performance.  I added  about 25 new entities this past year and have
> recently reached DXCC on TB.  I do have mesh below FCP.  Soil is average.
> Live on lake.  Water level is high in soil.
>
>
>
> 73, Jim K7EG
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail   for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> ___
> Topband mailing list
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>
>
> --
>
> End of Topband Digest, Vol 185, Issue 6
> ***
>
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Topband: Question for the K2AV FCP users...

[Peter Bertini]

Has anyone with poor soil considered or tried adding a few
hundred square feet of  cheap galvanized wire mesh on  the ground beneath
the FCP to reduce ground losses?  I suspect
improving the near field ground losses would help slightly,
but was curious if anyone actually tried it?

Pete
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