Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
We had great luck from V47 in the 80's with a dipole at 45ft. 100 would have been fantastic. You will most likely need a receiving antenna like a beverage. It will make all the difference in the world. Mike W0MU On 6/10/2014 4:15 PM, Clive GM3POI wrote: Hi Dale, My only main point is that whatever antenna you end up using and with the height you have available you the most important task will lie with the operator. Without someone who can handle the pileups (even on 160m) and know when to listen to other than local stations, you may well not give the opportunity its deserves, justice. But I hope it all goes well and this is all in the planning apart from the actual antenna. Remember all antennas work. 73 Clive GM3POI -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of DALE LONG Sent: 10 June 2014 18:58 To: Milt -- N5IA; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Hi Milt: This is not a big dxpedtion like VP6DX! We do not have a dxpedition webpage. We will use LOTW but we will not have real-time logging. For many years I have been involved in mission work to build radio stations in Haiti with an organization called Radio Lumiere. This is a Haitian nationally-run organization (a good thing not often enough found in developing countries where too often funding decisions are made by large NGOs). We have engineers and technical folks from USA and Germany who provide technical assistance and radio equipment. About once a year we go to Haiti and build a new FM station with 100ft tower. This year our project is to build an AM station. The two amateur groups are tasked with erecting the 240 foot AM tower. Then we get to play with it. This is a great opportunity, and is not often offered to amateurs. The tower would be erected by the group who is going in November for CQWW. The 160m dxpedition should arrive to find a big tower, but lacking radials with some kind of 160m antenna. Improving it for 160m would be our project. Our 160m efforts will be not of much practical use for the radio network, but necessary for topband. It is interesting to note (for some of the AM broadcast engineers in this group) that the people in Haiti (who dont have television and online news) still find AM to be an important communication vehicle. We do have a big opportunity. Many broadcast engineers do not have a high opinion of amateur radio operators and their abilities. And they do not often offer to allow an amateur group the use of their broadcast tower. But in this case the amateur community is providing the tower and the expertise to put it up. In return, we are allowed to use it. We plan to raise the tower in late November and have a small team to operate in the CQWW. I and other amateurs plan to stay and operate the ARRL 160m contest. We have a decent place to stay near the airport, and not far to the site. We will have a generator to ensure that we have power. The location is a salt marsh right on the ocean. We own the 9-acre plot. Although I have used beverages in other dxpeditions, I think that beverages would be of little value in the marshy area. (when I last visited the site the tower base and tuning house were on dry land and historically stay dry.) But part of the radial field would be in the marsh. We would have some local workers to provide assistance with radial installation. What we will have available is simply a tall broadcast tower. It will be top-loaded to bring it close to the design frequency of 660 Khz. We are still seeking a bottom insulator for the broadcast tower. As far as 160m operation is concerned, we could tune the tower with broadcast tuning network, but I agree with Dado and others that it may not be as good as a sloping dipole. (If we have opportunity we will try both.) If you would like to join us you would be most welcome. We need some 160 guys, especially to build some kind of listening antenna for a site with high ground conductivity. 73 Dale - N3BNA P.S. in addition to topband activities, I would note that all the ham radio stations in Haiti are operating with low or compromised antennas. On the higher bands we should be able to contact areas of the world that do not often have opportunity to contact Haiti. And as it happens many of our first group are well-known VHF contesters. So you may find us on 6m when our work is finished. From: Milt -- N5IA To: DALE LONG Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Dale, Do you have a web page of the DXpedition that spells out the basics? Interested. In particular, what are your plans for 160 Meters, my specialty? de Milt, N5IA -- XZ1N, XZ0A, VP6DX -Original Message- From: DALE LONG Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 6:25 AM To: Dragoslav Balaban ; 'Carl' ; g...@ka1j.com ; Topband@contesting.
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Just an FYI to all on the reflector. I use a corner fed (~25 ft up from the corner) Delta Loop on 160 and am very happy with it. Apex is at 130 ft. I eventually had to make it with #10 copper wire as even #12 would break in the 70 mph winds we get here. A 0.25 wl of 75 ohm coax is used as a matching section. There is very tight coupling to the 150 ft tower it's hung on which gives it a fairly omnidirectional pattern according to EZNEC. My only complaint is the 2:1 bandwidth is 35 KHz. I should fab a tuner one of these days. The bottom is 8 ft above ground so I can drive my pickup under it with no problem. I work everything I call and don't miss the radials and the yearly repairs one bit! HiHi 73 Hardy N7RT - Original Message - From: To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 4:05 PM Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition The advantages of Vertical polarization under these circumstances is a given, but don't overlook the class of antennas that Sevick classified as "SCV" A "Self Contained Vertical" can be as simple as a corner-fed Delta loop, or a "Double L" Using the tower as a high support for a loop sounds easier than installing a radial field. NCJ did a three-part series a few years back. I guess a lot depends upon the guarantee of future access ? N2KW -- Original Message -- From: "Clive GM3POI" To: "'DALE LONG'" , "'Milt -- N5IA'" , Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 22:15:06 - Hi Dale, My only main point is that whatever antenna you end up using and with the height you have available you the most important task will lie with the operator. Without someone who can handle the pileups (even on 160m) and know when to listen to other than local stations, you may well not give the opportunity its deserves, justice. But I hope it all goes well and this is all in the planning apart from the actual antenna. Remember all antennas work. 73 Clive GM3POI -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of DALE LONG Sent: 10 June 2014 18:58 To: Milt -- N5IA; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Hi Milt: This is not a big dxpedtion like VP6DX! We do not have a dxpedition webpage. We will use LOTW but we will not have real-time logging. For many years I have been involved in mission work to build radio stations in Haiti with an organization called Radio Lumiere. This is a Haitian nationally-run organization (a good thing not often enough found in developing countries where too often funding decisions are made by large NGOs). We have engineers and technical folks from USA and Germany who provide technical assistance and radio equipment. About once a year we go to Haiti and build a new FM station with 100ft tower. This year our project is to build an AM station. The two amateur groups are tasked with erecting the 240 foot AM tower. Then we get to play with it. This is a great opportunity, and is not often offered to amateurs. The tower would be erected by the group who is going in November for CQWW. The 160m dxpedition should arrive to find a big tower, but lacking radials with some kind of 160m antenna. Improving it for 160m would be our project. Our 160m efforts will be not of much practical use for the radio network, but necessary for topband. It is interesting to note (for some of the AM broadcast engineers in this group) that the people in Haiti (who dont have television and online news) still find AM to be an important communication vehicle. We do have a big opportunity. Many broadcast engineers do not have a high opinion of amateur radio operators and their abilities. And they do not often offer to allow an amateur group the use of their broadcast tower. But in this case the amateur community is providing the tower and the expertise to put it up. In return, we are allowed to use it. We plan to raise the tower in late November and have a small team to operate in the CQWW. I and other amateurs plan to stay and operate the ARRL 160m contest. We have a decent place to stay near the airport, and not far to the site. We will have a generator to ensure that we have power. The location is a salt marsh right on the ocean. We own the 9-acre plot. Although I have used beverages in other dxpeditions, I think that beverages would be of little value in the marshy area. (when I last visited the site the tower base and tuning house were on dry land and historically stay dry.) But part of the radial field would be in the marsh. We would have some local workers to provide assistance with radial installation. What we will have available is simply a tall broadcast tower. It will be top-loaded to bring it close to the design frequency of 660 Khz. We are still seeking a bott
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
The advantages of Vertical polarization under these circumstances is a given, but don't overlook the class of antennas that Sevick classified as "SCV" A "Self Contained Vertical" can be as simple as a corner-fed Delta loop, or a "Double L" Using the tower as a high support for a loop sounds easier than installing a radial field. NCJ did a three-part series a few years back. I guess a lot depends upon the guarantee of future access ? N2KW -- Original Message -- From: "Clive GM3POI" To: "'DALE LONG'" , "'Milt -- N5IA'" , Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 22:15:06 - Hi Dale, My only main point is that whatever antenna you end up using and with the height you have available you the most important task will lie with the operator. Without someone who can handle the pileups (even on 160m) and know when to listen to other than local stations, you may well not give the opportunity its deserves, justice. But I hope it all goes well and this is all in the planning apart from the actual antenna. Remember all antennas work. 73 Clive GM3POI -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of DALE LONG Sent: 10 June 2014 18:58 To: Milt -- N5IA; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Hi Milt: This is not a big dxpedtion like VP6DX! We do not have a dxpedition webpage. We will use LOTW but we will not have real-time logging. For many years I have been involved in mission work to build radio stations in Haiti with an organization called Radio Lumiere. This is a Haitian nationally-run organization (a good thing not often enough found in developing countries where too often funding decisions are made by large NGOs). We have engineers and technical folks from USA and Germany who provide technical assistance and radio equipment. About once a year we go to Haiti and build a new FM station with 100ft tower. This year our project is to build an AM station. The two amateur groups are tasked with erecting the 240 foot AM tower. Then we get to play with it. This is a great opportunity, and is not often offered to amateurs. The tower would be erected by the group who is going in November for CQWW. The 160m dxpedition should arrive to find a big tower, but lacking radials with some kind of 160m antenna. Improving it for 160m would be our project. Our 160m efforts will be not of much practical use for the radio network, but necessary for topband. It is interesting to note (for some of the AM broadcast engineers in this group) that the people in Haiti (who dont have television and online news) still find AM to be an important communication vehicle. We do have a big opportunity. Many broadcast engineers do not have a high opinion of amateur radio operators and their abilities. And they do not often offer to allow an amateur group the use of their broadcast tower. But in this case the amateur community is providing the tower and the expertise to put it up. In return, we are allowed to use it. We plan to raise the tower in late November and have a small team to operate in the CQWW. I and other amateurs plan to stay and operate the ARRL 160m contest. We have a decent place to stay near the airport, and not far to the site. We will have a generator to ensure that we have power. The location is a salt marsh right on the ocean. We own the 9-acre plot. Although I have used beverages in other dxpeditions, I think that beverages would be of little value in the marshy area. (when I last visited the site the tower base and tuning house were on dry land and historically stay dry.) But part of the radial field would be in the marsh. We would have some local workers to provide assistance with radial installation. What we will have available is simply a tall broadcast tower. It will be top-loaded to bring it close to the design frequency of 660 Khz. We are still seeking a bottom insulator for the broadcast tower. As far as 160m operation is concerned, we could tune the tower with broadcast tuning network, but I agree with Dado and others that it may not be as good as a sloping dipole. (If we have opportunity we will try both.) If you would like to join us you would be most welcome. We need some 160 guys, especially to build some kind of listening antenna for a site with high ground conductivity. 73 Dale - N3BNA P.S. in addition to topband activities, I would note that all the ham radio stations in Haiti are operating with low or compromised antennas. On the higher bands we should be able to contact areas of the world that do not often have opportunity to contact Haiti. And as it happens many of our first group are well-known VHF contesters. So you may find us on 6m when our work is finished. > > From: Milt
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Hi Dale, My only main point is that whatever antenna you end up using and with the height you have available you the most important task will lie with the operator. Without someone who can handle the pileups (even on 160m) and know when to listen to other than local stations, you may well not give the opportunity its deserves, justice. But I hope it all goes well and this is all in the planning apart from the actual antenna. Remember all antennas work. 73 Clive GM3POI -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of DALE LONG Sent: 10 June 2014 18:58 To: Milt -- N5IA; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Hi Milt: This is not a big dxpedtion like VP6DX! We do not have a dxpedition webpage. We will use LOTW but we will not have real-time logging. For many years I have been involved in mission work to build radio stations in Haiti with an organization called Radio Lumiere. This is a Haitian nationally-run organization (a good thing not often enough found in developing countries where too often funding decisions are made by large NGOs). We have engineers and technical folks from USA and Germany who provide technical assistance and radio equipment. About once a year we go to Haiti and build a new FM station with 100ft tower. This year our project is to build an AM station. The two amateur groups are tasked with erecting the 240 foot AM tower. Then we get to play with it. This is a great opportunity, and is not often offered to amateurs. The tower would be erected by the group who is going in November for CQWW. The 160m dxpedition should arrive to find a big tower, but lacking radials with some kind of 160m antenna. Improving it for 160m would be our project. Our 160m efforts will be not of much practical use for the radio network, but necessary for topband. It is interesting to note (for some of the AM broadcast engineers in this group) that the people in Haiti (who dont have television and online news) still find AM to be an important communication vehicle. We do have a big opportunity. Many broadcast engineers do not have a high opinion of amateur radio operators and their abilities. And they do not often offer to allow an amateur group the use of their broadcast tower. But in this case the amateur community is providing the tower and the expertise to put it up. In return, we are allowed to use it. We plan to raise the tower in late November and have a small team to operate in the CQWW. I and other amateurs plan to stay and operate the ARRL 160m contest. We have a decent place to stay near the airport, and not far to the site. We will have a generator to ensure that we have power. The location is a salt marsh right on the ocean. We own the 9-acre plot. Although I have used beverages in other dxpeditions, I think that beverages would be of little value in the marshy area. (when I last visited the site the tower base and tuning house were on dry land and historically stay dry.) But part of the radial field would be in the marsh. We would have some local workers to provide assistance with radial installation. What we will have available is simply a tall broadcast tower. It will be top-loaded to bring it close to the design frequency of 660 Khz. We are still seeking a bottom insulator for the broadcast tower. As far as 160m operation is concerned, we could tune the tower with broadcast tuning network, but I agree with Dado and others that it may not be as good as a sloping dipole. (If we have opportunity we will try both.) If you would like to join us you would be most welcome. We need some 160 guys, especially to build some kind of listening antenna for a site with high ground conductivity. 73 Dale - N3BNA P.S. in addition to topband activities, I would note that all the ham radio stations in Haiti are operating with low or compromised antennas. On the higher bands we should be able to contact areas of the world that do not often have opportunity to contact Haiti. And as it happens many of our first group are well-known VHF contesters. So you may find us on 6m when our work is finished. > > From: Milt -- N5IA >To: DALE LONG >Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 11:28 AM >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > >Dale, > >Do you have a web page of the DXpedition that spells out the basics? > >Interested. In particular, what are your plans for 160 Meters, my >specialty? > >de Milt, N5IA -- XZ1N, XZ0A, VP6DX > > > >-Original Message- >From: DALE LONG >Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 6:25 AM >To: Dragoslav Balaban ; 'Carl' ; g...@ka1j.com ; Topband@contesting.com >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > >Hi Dado: > >I agree with you. Thanks to advice from AA1K, I built a sloping dipole at >
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
I put a delta loop fed at a corner with the apex at only 100' (slightly squashed). We compared it to an inverted V that was on another tower about 200' away that was also 100'. A/B indicated the delta was louder on transmit but much noisier on receive. The Inverted V was quieter. Signals were down a bit but noise was down more. Just could have been issue at our QTH. 73, Mike WA5POK On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:58 PM, DALE LONG wrote: Hi Milt: This is not a big dxpedtion like VP6DX! We do not have a dxpedition webpage. We will use LOTW but we will not have real-time logging. For many years I have been involved in mission work to build radio stations in Haiti with an organization called Radio Lumiere. This is a Haitian nationally-run organization (a good thing not often enough found in developing countries where too often funding decisions are made by large NGOs). We have engineers and technical folks from USA and Germany who provide technical assistance and radio equipment. About once a year we go to Haiti and build a new FM station with 100ft tower. This year our project is to build an AM station. The two amateur groups are tasked with erecting the 240 foot AM tower. Then we get to play with it. This is a great opportunity, and is not often offered to amateurs. The tower would be erected by the group who is going in November for CQWW. The 160m dxpedition should arrive to find a big tower, but lacking radials with some kind of 160m antenna. Improving it for 160m would be our project. Our 160m efforts will be not of much practical use for the radio network, but necessary for topband. It is interesting to note (for some of the AM broadcast engineers in this group) that the people in Haiti (who dont have television and online news) still find AM to be an important communication vehicle. We do have a big opportunity. Many broadcast engineers do not have a high opinion of amateur radio operators and their abilities. And they do not often offer to allow an amateur group the use of their broadcast tower. But in this case the amateur community is providing the tower and the expertise to put it up. In return, we are allowed to use it. We plan to raise the tower in late November and have a small team to operate in the CQWW. I and other amateurs plan to stay and operate the ARRL 160m contest. We have a decent place to stay near the airport, and not far to the site. We will have a generator to ensure that we have power. The location is a salt marsh right on the ocean. We own the 9-acre plot. Although I have used beverages in other dxpeditions, I think that beverages would be of little value in the marshy area. (when I last visited the site the tower base and tuning house were on dry land and historically stay dry.) But part of the radial field would be in the marsh. We would have some local workers to provide assistance with radial installation. What we will have available is simply a tall broadcast tower. It will be top-loaded to bring it close to the design frequency of 660 Khz. We are still seeking a bottom insulator for the broadcast tower. As far as 160m operation is concerned, we could tune the tower with broadcast tuning network, but I agree with Dado and others that it may not be as good as a sloping dipole. (If we have opportunity we will try both.) If you would like to join us you would be most welcome. We need some 160 guys, especially to build some kind of listening antenna for a site with high ground conductivity. 73 Dale - N3BNA P.S. in addition to topband activities, I would note that all the ham radio stations in Haiti are operating with low or compromised antennas. On the higher bands we should be able to contact areas of the world that do not often have opportunity to contact Haiti. And as it happens many of our first group are well-known VHF contesters. So you may find us on 6m when our work is finished. > > From: Milt -- N5IA >To: DALE LONG >Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 11:28 AM >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > >Dale, > >Do you have a web page of the DXpedition that spells out the basics? > >Interested. In particular, what are your plans for 160 Meters, my >specialty? > >de Milt, N5IA -- XZ1N, XZ0A, VP6DX > > > >-Original Message- >From: DALE LONG >Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 6:25 AM >To: Dragoslav Balaban ; 'Carl' ; g...@ka1j.com ; Topband@contesting.com >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > >Hi Dado: > >I agree with you. Thanks to advice from AA1K, I built a sloping dipole at >200 feet for 80m in HH7-land. I was really loud into EU and USA with only a >borrowed TS-50. > >We are still looking for operators for the HH2 160m dxpedition Dec1-Dec8. > >73 > >Dale
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Hi Milt: This is not a big dxpedtion like VP6DX! We do not have a dxpedition webpage. We will use LOTW but we will not have real-time logging. For many years I have been involved in mission work to build radio stations in Haiti with an organization called Radio Lumiere. This is a Haitian nationally-run organization (a good thing not often enough found in developing countries where too often funding decisions are made by large NGOs). We have engineers and technical folks from USA and Germany who provide technical assistance and radio equipment. About once a year we go to Haiti and build a new FM station with 100ft tower. This year our project is to build an AM station. The two amateur groups are tasked with erecting the 240 foot AM tower. Then we get to play with it. This is a great opportunity, and is not often offered to amateurs. The tower would be erected by the group who is going in November for CQWW. The 160m dxpedition should arrive to find a big tower, but lacking radials with some kind of 160m antenna. Improving it for 160m would be our project. Our 160m efforts will be not of much practical use for the radio network, but necessary for topband. It is interesting to note (for some of the AM broadcast engineers in this group) that the people in Haiti (who dont have television and online news) still find AM to be an important communication vehicle. We do have a big opportunity. Many broadcast engineers do not have a high opinion of amateur radio operators and their abilities. And they do not often offer to allow an amateur group the use of their broadcast tower. But in this case the amateur community is providing the tower and the expertise to put it up. In return, we are allowed to use it. We plan to raise the tower in late November and have a small team to operate in the CQWW. I and other amateurs plan to stay and operate the ARRL 160m contest. We have a decent place to stay near the airport, and not far to the site. We will have a generator to ensure that we have power. The location is a salt marsh right on the ocean. We own the 9-acre plot. Although I have used beverages in other dxpeditions, I think that beverages would be of little value in the marshy area. (when I last visited the site the tower base and tuning house were on dry land and historically stay dry.) But part of the radial field would be in the marsh. We would have some local workers to provide assistance with radial installation. What we will have available is simply a tall broadcast tower. It will be top-loaded to bring it close to the design frequency of 660 Khz. We are still seeking a bottom insulator for the broadcast tower. As far as 160m operation is concerned, we could tune the tower with broadcast tuning network, but I agree with Dado and others that it may not be as good as a sloping dipole. (If we have opportunity we will try both.) If you would like to join us you would be most welcome. We need some 160 guys, especially to build some kind of listening antenna for a site with high ground conductivity. 73 Dale - N3BNA P.S. in addition to topband activities, I would note that all the ham radio stations in Haiti are operating with low or compromised antennas. On the higher bands we should be able to contact areas of the world that do not often have opportunity to contact Haiti. And as it happens many of our first group are well-known VHF contesters. So you may find us on 6m when our work is finished. > > From: Milt -- N5IA >To: DALE LONG >Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 11:28 AM >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > >Dale, > >Do you have a web page of the DXpedition that spells out the basics? > >Interested. In particular, what are your plans for 160 Meters, my >specialty? > >de Milt, N5IA -- XZ1N, XZ0A, VP6DX > > > >-Original Message- >From: DALE LONG >Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 6:25 AM >To: Dragoslav Balaban ; 'Carl' ; g...@ka1j.com ; Topband@contesting.com >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > >Hi Dado: > >I agree with you. Thanks to advice from AA1K, I built a sloping dipole at >200 feet for 80m in HH7-land. I was really loud into EU and USA with only a >borrowed TS-50. > >We are still looking for operators for the HH2 160m dxpedition Dec1-Dec8. > >73 > >Dale - N3BNA > > > > >- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2014.0.4592 / Virus Database: 3955/7652 - Release Date: 06/09/14 > > > > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
A Delta Loop is probably the least noisy of anything you can hang off an AM tower. I tired both slopers and a Delta Loop here (corner fed) and there and the noise was significantly lower on the Delta Loop for weak signal reception. The Delta Loop here had a slight total slope to it to try and minimize inter-coupling to a 300 foot insulated AM tower. Herb, KV4FZ On 6/10/2014 12:17 PM, Mike Furrey wrote: I would hang a delta loop off of that tower very easy to tune and match with a 1/4 wave length 75 ohm coax. You don't have to worry about complex matching systems or ground. BUT it is noisy on receive. 73, Mike WA5POK On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 9:25 AM, DALE LONG wrote: Hi Dado: I agree with you. Thanks to advice from AA1K, I built a sloping dipole at 200 feet for 80m in HH7-land. I was really loud into EU and USA with only a borrowed TS-50. We are still looking for operators for the HH2 160m dxpedition Dec1-Dec8. 73 Dale - N3BNA P.S. I am forever sad about the time that I tried a sloping dipole on 160m from HH7. It was the last day of my trip. We finished the antenna after dusk and put it up. It was my chance to be loud on 160 and make many people happy (I even had an argument that i should not do this because it was in a remote area and we had to fly at 6:30 AM). So it was Friday night and I tuned around 1812 and there I heard SSB signals..then all the band was full of SSB signals. W1 stations working W2 stations and W3 stations working W4 stations. I could not break the pileups. I could not get any answers to my CQ calls. My one night to be on 160 with good antenna was lost because of the SSB contest! From: Dragoslav Balaban To: 'Carl' ; g...@ka1j.com; Topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition hi all, As I can can see in EZNEC, simple model, Tower 2 Ft over average ground, 242 Ft high, best and simplest solution is to put sloping Dipole, K8UR style, Arch shape, >from top of the Tower, Gain in dipole direction can be as much as 3.84 dBi at 17 degrees Vertical angle, one Dipole toward EU 60-90 degrees, and maybe other to west 270-300 degrees, that would cover all 360 degrees , with F-S 90 degrees less then 3 dB difference, but 90 degrees from HH north is NA, south SA, and thats close-almost local, so should be no problem... 73 gl,looking forward HH , would be new one 160m hi dado E74AW -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl Sent: Wednesday, 26 February, 2014 01:44 To: g...@ka1j.com; Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Make them shorter and they will often do well over tidal marshes but not over open water. For a 240' tower Id suggest gamma feeding it up at the 1/4 wave point and use 4 elevated radials. It the AM BCB radials are installed they will make an excellent ground screen but do not connect them to the 160M feedline. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: "Charlie Cunningham" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition That's not so surprising Gary !! te Way the Beverages and similar slow-wave antennas work is that they depend on the lossy GND underneath for their operation, so a salt marsh would not be a very beneficial GND structure under a Beverage! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:09 PM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition My Inv-L is on a salt marsh on Long Island Sound in Connecticut & I ran two bidirectional 860' beverages over the salt marsh. I had terrible results with the beverages, very noisy and hardly any improvement over the Inv-L, much of the time the Inv-L was more effective on Rx. With that, my experience of beverages & salt marshes says to avoid this route. I ended up with a HI-Z Triangular array for Rx and it works very well at the same location. Gary KA1J No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank or a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas! A 240' vertical would, I think, be a VERY noisy receive antenna. If they put up a KAZ terminated loop that only requires one overhead support, they could steer it ar
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
I would hang a delta loop off of that tower very easy to tune and match with a 1/4 wave length 75 ohm coax. You don't have to worry about complex matching systems or ground. BUT it is noisy on receive. 73, Mike WA5POK On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 9:25 AM, DALE LONG wrote: Hi Dado: I agree with you. Thanks to advice from AA1K, I built a sloping dipole at 200 feet for 80m in HH7-land. I was really loud into EU and USA with only a borrowed TS-50. We are still looking for operators for the HH2 160m dxpedition Dec1-Dec8. 73 Dale - N3BNA P.S. I am forever sad about the time that I tried a sloping dipole on 160m from HH7. It was the last day of my trip. We finished the antenna after dusk and put it up. It was my chance to be loud on 160 and make many people happy (I even had an argument that i should not do this because it was in a remote area and we had to fly at 6:30 AM). So it was Friday night and I tuned around 1812 and there I heard SSB signals..then all the band was full of SSB signals. W1 stations working W2 stations and W3 stations working W4 stations. I could not break the pileups. I could not get any answers to my CQ calls. My one night to be on 160 with good antenna was lost because of the SSB contest! > > From: Dragoslav Balaban >To: 'Carl' ; g...@ka1j.com; Topband@contesting.com >Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 7:02 AM >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > >hi all, > >As I can can see in EZNEC, simple model, Tower 2 Ft over average ground, 242 >Ft high, >best and simplest solution is to put sloping Dipole, K8UR style, Arch shape, >from top of the Tower, > >Gain in dipole direction can be as much as 3.84 dBi at 17 degrees Vertical >angle, > >one Dipole toward EU 60-90 degrees, and maybe other to west 270-300 >degrees, > >that would cover all 360 degrees , with F-S 90 degrees less then 3 dB >difference, but 90 degrees from HH north is NA, south SA, and thats >close-almost local, so should be no problem... > >73 gl, looking forward HH , would be new one 160m hi > >dado E74AW > > > >-Original Message- >From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl >Sent: Wednesday, 26 February, 2014 01:44 >To: g...@ka1j.com; Topband@contesting.com >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > >Make them shorter and they will often do well over tidal marshes but not >over open water. > >For a 240' tower Id suggest gamma feeding it up at the 1/4 wave point and >use 4 elevated radials. It the AM BCB radials are installed they will make >an excellent ground screen but do not connect them to the 160M feedline. > >Carl >KM1H > > >----- Original Message - >From: "Charlie Cunningham" >To: ; >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:24 PM >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > >> That's not so surprising Gary !! te Way the Beverages and similar >> slow-wave >> antennas work is that they depend on the lossy GND underneath for their >> operation, so a salt marsh would not be a very beneficial GND structure >> under a Beverage! >> >> 73, >> Charlie, K4OTV >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary >> Smith >> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:09 PM >> To: Topband@contesting.com >> Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition >> >> My Inv-L is on a salt marsh on Long Island Sound in Connecticut & I >> ran two bidirectional 860' beverages over the salt marsh. I had >> terrible results with the beverages, very noisy and hardly any >> improvement over the Inv-L, much of the time the Inv-L was more >> effective on Rx. With that, my experience of beverages & salt marshes >> says to avoid this route. >> >> I ended up with a HI-Z Triangular array for Rx and it works very well >> at the same location. >> >> Gary >> KA1J >> >>> No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base >>> insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed >>> very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank >> or >>> a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an >>> excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance >>> can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement >>> >>> Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated >>> loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Hi Dado: I agree with you. Thanks to advice from AA1K, I built a sloping dipole at 200 feet for 80m in HH7-land. I was really loud into EU and USA with only a borrowed TS-50. We are still looking for operators for the HH2 160m dxpedition Dec1-Dec8. 73 Dale - N3BNA P.S. I am forever sad about the time that I tried a sloping dipole on 160m from HH7. It was the last day of my trip. We finished the antenna after dusk and put it up. It was my chance to be loud on 160 and make many people happy (I even had an argument that i should not do this because it was in a remote area and we had to fly at 6:30 AM). So it was Friday night and I tuned around 1812 and there I heard SSB signals..then all the band was full of SSB signals. W1 stations working W2 stations and W3 stations working W4 stations. I could not break the pileups. I could not get any answers to my CQ calls. My one night to be on 160 with good antenna was lost because of the SSB contest! > > From: Dragoslav Balaban >To: 'Carl' ; g...@ka1j.com; Topband@contesting.com >Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 7:02 AM >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > >hi all, > >As I can can see in EZNEC, simple model, Tower 2 Ft over average ground, 242 >Ft high, >best and simplest solution is to put sloping Dipole, K8UR style, Arch shape, >from top of the Tower, > >Gain in dipole direction can be as much as 3.84 dBi at 17 degrees Vertical >angle, > >one Dipole toward EU 60-90 degrees, and maybe other to west 270-300 >degrees, > >that would cover all 360 degrees , with F-S 90 degrees less then 3 dB >difference, but 90 degrees from HH north is NA, south SA, and thats >close-almost local, so should be no problem... > >73 gl, looking forward HH , would be new one 160m hi > >dado E74AW > > > >-Original Message- >From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl >Sent: Wednesday, 26 February, 2014 01:44 >To: g...@ka1j.com; Topband@contesting.com >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > >Make them shorter and they will often do well over tidal marshes but not >over open water. > >For a 240' tower Id suggest gamma feeding it up at the 1/4 wave point and >use 4 elevated radials. It the AM BCB radials are installed they will make >an excellent ground screen but do not connect them to the 160M feedline. > >Carl >KM1H > > >- Original Message - >From: "Charlie Cunningham" >To: ; >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:24 PM >Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > >> That's not so surprising Gary !! te Way the Beverages and similar >> slow-wave >> antennas work is that they depend on the lossy GND underneath for their >> operation, so a salt marsh would not be a very beneficial GND structure >> under a Beverage! >> >> 73, >> Charlie, K4OTV >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary >> Smith >> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:09 PM >> To: Topband@contesting.com >> Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition >> >> My Inv-L is on a salt marsh on Long Island Sound in Connecticut & I >> ran two bidirectional 860' beverages over the salt marsh. I had >> terrible results with the beverages, very noisy and hardly any >> improvement over the Inv-L, much of the time the Inv-L was more >> effective on Rx. With that, my experience of beverages & salt marshes >> says to avoid this route. >> >> I ended up with a HI-Z Triangular array for Rx and it works very well >> at the same location. >> >> Gary >> KA1J >> >>> No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base >>> insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed >>> very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank >> or >>> a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an >>> excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance >>> can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement >>> >>> Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated >>> loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas! A 240' >>> vertical >>> would, I think, be a VERY noisy receive antenna. If they put up a KAZ >>> terminated loop that only requires one overhead support, they could steer >> it >>> around with ropes and weights on the ground. The KAZ is
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
hi all, As I can can see in EZNEC, simple model, Tower 2 Ft over average ground, 242 Ft high, best and simplest solution is to put sloping Dipole, K8UR style, Arch shape, from top of the Tower, Gain in dipole direction can be as much as 3.84 dBi at 17 degrees Vertical angle, one Dipole toward EU 60-90 degrees, and maybe other to west 270-300 degrees, that would cover all 360 degrees , with F-S 90 degrees less then 3 dB difference, but 90 degrees from HH north is NA, south SA, and thats close-almost local, so should be no problem... 73 gl,looking forward HH , would be new one 160m hi dado E74AW -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Carl Sent: Wednesday, 26 February, 2014 01:44 To: g...@ka1j.com; Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Make them shorter and they will often do well over tidal marshes but not over open water. For a 240' tower Id suggest gamma feeding it up at the 1/4 wave point and use 4 elevated radials. It the AM BCB radials are installed they will make an excellent ground screen but do not connect them to the 160M feedline. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: "Charlie Cunningham" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > That's not so surprising Gary !! te Way the Beverages and similar > slow-wave > antennas work is that they depend on the lossy GND underneath for their > operation, so a salt marsh would not be a very beneficial GND structure > under a Beverage! > > 73, > Charlie, K4OTV > > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary > Smith > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:09 PM > To: Topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > My Inv-L is on a salt marsh on Long Island Sound in Connecticut & I > ran two bidirectional 860' beverages over the salt marsh. I had > terrible results with the beverages, very noisy and hardly any > improvement over the Inv-L, much of the time the Inv-L was more > effective on Rx. With that, my experience of beverages & salt marshes > says to avoid this route. > > I ended up with a HI-Z Triangular array for Rx and it works very well > at the same location. > > Gary > KA1J > >> No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base >> insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed >> very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank > or >> a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an >> excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance >> can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement >> >> Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated >> loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas! A 240' >> vertical >> would, I think, be a VERY noisy receive antenna. If they put up a KAZ >> terminated loop that only requires one overhead support, they could steer > it >> around with ropes and weights on the ground. The KAZ is like ON4UN's > FO0AAA >> 160 receive loop. >> >> 73, >> Charlie, K4OTV >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of >> Richard >> Karlquist >> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:38 PM >> To: topband@contesting.com >> Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition >> >> Congratulations on your adventure. >> >> In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts >> ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you >> get an advance team out to the site to check >> out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some >> temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN >> on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. >> >> Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. >> >> Rick N6RK >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4335 / Virus Database: 3705/7124 - Release Date: 02/25/14 > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Congrats indeed!! Seconding Rick's comment below -- AM towers make REAL lousy RX antennas. They catch ALL* the front-end-pulverizing noise on 160/80. "Been there, done that..." well, OK, not the dxpedition part. But I have occasionally at night "borrowed" a few AM "Daytime-Only" auth'd stations' towers for the Ham Jones. Great fun QRP ;) 73, - Josh / KF4YLM * that is, all the noise in their pattern, which admittedly might be more narrow in some elevation angles than the average amateur Inverted-L On 2/25/2014 3:38 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: Congratulations on your adventure. In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you get an advance team out to the site to check out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Depends on the noise at your location, before I removed the 300 ft towers here I matched one for 160 and ran low power in the Stew Perry a few years ago, ended up number 1 world wide if memory is correct, and receive was only the xmt antenna at that time. If the locations noise is low you will hear everything thats on the band. I'm in a quiet location and my 300ft tower wasn't noticeably terrible. It was about like any other omni vertical. It wasn't nearly as good as any directional receiving antenna. There isn't any reason why it would be. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
On 2/25/2014 6:16 PM, Merv Schweigert wrote: If the locations noise is low you will hear everything thats on the band. Merv K9FD/KH6 Of course. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But in today's world, it is not safe to assume that any given location will be quiet. I've been to mountain tops that were noisy, thanks to lots of noisy gear used by VHF/UHF repeaters, telecom gear, and internet links. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Depends on the noise at your location, before I removed the 300 ft towers here I matched one for 160 and ran low power in the Stew Perry a few years ago, ended up number 1 world wide if memory is correct, and receive was only the xmt antenna at that time. If the locations noise is low you will hear everything thats on the band. Merv K9FD/KH6 On 2/25/2014 12:38 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. YES! I had exactly that experience nearly 30 years ago loading a quarter wave tower near Chicago for 860 kHz. Couldn't hear a thing. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband . _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
I thought a bit more about this… while a beachfront/salt marsh location might be ideal for building an international broadcast facility, if you were building a station for domestic Haitian audiences you would probably prefer a high location reasonably far from the sea and its corrosive effects. Or perhaps you might design a tower primarily as a support structure and utilize easily replaceable vertical dipoles with coated wire as the radiators. Without extensive maintenance a tower might last a relatively short period of time and have conductivity issues. On Mar 25, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Charlie Cunningham wrote: > Good point! > > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ashton > Lee > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:03 PM > To: DALE LONG > Cc: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > I would be especially mindful of corrosion issues in tower planning in the > Caribbean. There was a recent article in the Contest Journal on the ever > difficult tower corrosion experienced at PJ2T. > > > On Feb 25, 2014, at 1:17 PM, DALE LONG wrote: > >> Gentlemen: >> >> I have been reluctant to ask for help which did not relate directly to > our reflector. But today I got up my courage, so here goes. I have been > invited to lead a group of amateurs to help build an AM tower in Haiti. >> >> >> Two things that may relate to some of our readers: >> >> 1. I will be returning to Haiti in November to build a 240foot AM > broadcast tower. I know there are many AM broadcast engineers on this list > and would like to have your advice. Specifically we are searching for a > large conical base insulator. Sometimes when a tower rusts, they are > disgarded or thrown on a pile somewhere. We would like to buy one, and > possibly a tower as well. >> >> 2. In December of this year, I am organizing a small group to go to Haiti > and participate in the 160m contest. (this of course is dependent on the > tower being built.) >> >> I am particularly pleased that amateurs have been invited to help. > Sometimes broadcast engineers do not have the highest opinions of amateur > installations. So we do want to do it right. We have a 9-acre parcel of > land along the ocean and part of the area is a salt-water marsh. I think > there hasnt been any serious 160m activity from Haiti for a number of years. > This location would present a nice opportunity for a serious lowband > operation. >> >> If you have any information about base insulators/towers, or if you would > like to join a 160m dxpedition to Haiti, please respond off the reflector to > n3b...@gmail.com >> >> Thanks for your time. >> >> Dale - N3BNA >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Make them shorter and they will often do well over tidal marshes but not over open water. For a 240' tower Id suggest gamma feeding it up at the 1/4 wave point and use 4 elevated radials. It the AM BCB radials are installed they will make an excellent ground screen but do not connect them to the 160M feedline. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: "Charlie Cunningham" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition That's not so surprising Gary !! te Way the Beverages and similar slow-wave antennas work is that they depend on the lossy GND underneath for their operation, so a salt marsh would not be a very beneficial GND structure under a Beverage! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:09 PM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition My Inv-L is on a salt marsh on Long Island Sound in Connecticut & I ran two bidirectional 860' beverages over the salt marsh. I had terrible results with the beverages, very noisy and hardly any improvement over the Inv-L, much of the time the Inv-L was more effective on Rx. With that, my experience of beverages & salt marshes says to avoid this route. I ended up with a HI-Z Triangular array for Rx and it works very well at the same location. Gary KA1J No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank or a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas! A 240' vertical would, I think, be a VERY noisy receive antenna. If they put up a KAZ terminated loop that only requires one overhead support, they could steer it around with ropes and weights on the ground. The KAZ is like ON4UN's FO0AAA 160 receive loop. 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard Karlquist Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:38 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Congratulations on your adventure. In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you get an advance team out to the site to check out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4335 / Virus Database: 3705/7124 - Release Date: 02/25/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Half wave verticals have been very disappointing to me over the years when I had the tall BC towers in my backyard to play with after midnight on 160. I installed a 318 ft insulated base tower in stages and watched the results. I felt there was very little difference from 1/4 wave up to about 200 ft or so, and then above that I started losing signal under many conditions for almost no gain on anything. At 318 ft I lost considerable signal within the first 500 miles for no real difference, or actually some loss, out far. When I replaced that tower, I never bothered with a base insulator on the new one. The same thing was true in Ohio using BC towers, although that was just load them up and try them. I also remember from years ago how poor W8LT's signal was in one 160 contest when they used a 5/8th wave vertical. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
That's not so surprising Gary !! te Way the Beverages and similar slow-wave antennas work is that they depend on the lossy GND underneath for their operation, so a salt marsh would not be a very beneficial GND structure under a Beverage! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:09 PM To: Topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition My Inv-L is on a salt marsh on Long Island Sound in Connecticut & I ran two bidirectional 860' beverages over the salt marsh. I had terrible results with the beverages, very noisy and hardly any improvement over the Inv-L, much of the time the Inv-L was more effective on Rx. With that, my experience of beverages & salt marshes says to avoid this route. I ended up with a HI-Z Triangular array for Rx and it works very well at the same location. Gary KA1J > No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base > insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed > very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank or > a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an > excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance > can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement > > Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated > loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas! A 240' vertical > would, I think, be a VERY noisy receive antenna. If they put up a KAZ > terminated loop that only requires one overhead support, they could steer it > around with ropes and weights on the ground. The KAZ is like ON4UN's FO0AAA > 160 receive loop. > > 73, > Charlie, K4OTV > > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard > Karlquist > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:38 PM > To: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > Congratulations on your adventure. > > In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts > ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you > get an advance team out to the site to check > out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some > temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN > on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. > > Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. > > Rick N6RK > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Half wave verticals have been very disappointing to me over the years when I had the tall BC towers in my backyard to play with after midnight on 160. I have had much better result in hanging 1/2 wave center fed slopers of of high towers. Radio stations seem to prefer if they have extermely high towers like KSTP in St. Paul to split them with an insulated section and feed them as a Franklin design and pick up some additional gain along the ground. Some designs do not required two stacked half waves but achieve significant height by folding back the top and bottom sections with a cage or in fact using a top hat and an equivalent on the bottom. The proper phasing section is mounted in a box at the center split and the feedline is inside the tower. Why this should work any better than a straight 1/2 wave, as it seems to is available perhaps in those who can model and compare the two. It seems however that topbanders who expect good results with a bottom fed 1/2 over a traditional 1/4 wave over a good ground, seem to come away disappointed like myself. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 3/25/2014 3:56 PM, Charlie Cunningham wrote: No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank or a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas! A 240' vertical would, I think, be a VERY noisy receive antenna. If they put up a KAZ terminated loop that only requires one overhead support, they could steer it around with ropes and weights on the ground. The KAZ is like ON4UN's FO0AAA 160 receive loop. 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard Karlquist Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:38 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Congratulations on your adventure. In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you get an advance team out to the site to check out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
My Inv-L is on a salt marsh on Long Island Sound in Connecticut & I ran two bidirectional 860' beverages over the salt marsh. I had terrible results with the beverages, very noisy and hardly any improvement over the Inv-L, much of the time the Inv-L was more effective on Rx. With that, my experience of beverages & salt marshes says to avoid this route. I ended up with a HI-Z Triangular array for Rx and it works very well at the same location. Gary KA1J > No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base > insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed > very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank or > a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an > excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance > can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement > > Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated > loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas! A 240' vertical > would, I think, be a VERY noisy receive antenna. If they put up a KAZ > terminated loop that only requires one overhead support, they could steer it > around with ropes and weights on the ground. The KAZ is like ON4UN's FO0AAA > 160 receive loop. > > 73, > Charlie, K4OTV > > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard > Karlquist > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:38 PM > To: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > > Congratulations on your adventure. > > In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts > ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you > get an advance team out to the site to check > out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some > temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN > on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. > > Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. > > Rick N6RK > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
On 3/25/2014 4:45 PM, Charlie Cunningham wrote: Well, he's talking about going in November - maybe in time for CQWW CW -but probably not. Sorry, Charlie - his post said: 2. In December of this year, I am organizing a small group to go to Haiti and participate in the 160m contest. (this of course is dependent on the tower being built.) December and 160 meter contest means ARRL 160, maybe the Russian 160 Meter contest later in the month or the Stew Perry Topband Distance Challenge at the end of the month but not CQWW. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 3/25/2014 4:45 PM, Charlie Cunningham wrote: Well, he's talking about going in November - maybe in time for CQWW CW -but probably not. -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:10 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. 240 feet tuned/matched with a parallel tuned tapped tank should work quite well based on the information in K3LC's article in QEX Nov/Dec 2013. Of course, 240 feet would also make an excellent support for a wire 4 square or parasitic array aimed back across the center of the US (for ARRL 160). 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2/25/2014 3:38 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: Congratulations on your adventure. In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you get an advance team out to the site to check out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
On 2/25/2014 12:38 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. YES! I had exactly that experience nearly 30 years ago loading a quarter wave tower near Chicago for 860 kHz. Couldn't hear a thing. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Well, he's talking about going in November - maybe in time for CQWW CW -but probably not. -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:10 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition > Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. 240 feet tuned/matched with a parallel tuned tapped tank should work quite well based on the information in K3LC's article in QEX Nov/Dec 2013. Of course, 240 feet would also make an excellent support for a wire 4 square or parasitic array aimed back across the center of the US (for ARRL 160). 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2/25/2014 3:38 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: > Congratulations on your adventure. > > In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts > ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you > get an advance team out to the site to check > out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some > temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN > on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. > > Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. > > Rick N6RK > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Good point! -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ashton Lee Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:03 PM To: DALE LONG Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition I would be especially mindful of corrosion issues in tower planning in the Caribbean. There was a recent article in the Contest Journal on the ever difficult tower corrosion experienced at PJ2T. On Feb 25, 2014, at 1:17 PM, DALE LONG wrote: > Gentlemen: > > I have been reluctant to ask for help which did not relate directly to our reflector. But today I got up my courage, so here goes. I have been invited to lead a group of amateurs to help build an AM tower in Haiti. > > > Two things that may relate to some of our readers: > > 1. I will be returning to Haiti in November to build a 240foot AM broadcast tower. I know there are many AM broadcast engineers on this list and would like to have your advice. Specifically we are searching for a large conical base insulator. Sometimes when a tower rusts, they are disgarded or thrown on a pile somewhere. We would like to buy one, and possibly a tower as well. > > 2. In December of this year, I am organizing a small group to go to Haiti and participate in the 160m contest. (this of course is dependent on the tower being built.) > > I am particularly pleased that amateurs have been invited to help. Sometimes broadcast engineers do not have the highest opinions of amateur installations. So we do want to do it right. We have a 9-acre parcel of land along the ocean and part of the area is a salt-water marsh. I think there hasnt been any serious 160m activity from Haiti for a number of years. This location would present a nice opportunity for a serious lowband operation. > > If you have any information about base insulators/towers, or if you would like to join a 160m dxpedition to Haiti, please respond off the reflector to n3b...@gmail.com > > Thanks for your time. > > Dale - N3BNA > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
I recently did almost this same project in Tortola, BVI (VP2V) 4 weeks ago. I have been helping as a consultant to ZBVI for the past 20 years. I was part of the team that installed a new 300 ft tower for ZBVI when the old tower came down due to an accident with a guy wire. The station goes off the air at 10 PM so I was able to use it for a few hours on 160 during the CQWW 160 CW contest in late January. I designed the tower feed system as a slant wire (shunt feed) for AM broadcast service so that no base insulator is needed (helps with horrible lightning issues). Then I used a T network to match the slant wire to insure the proper bandwidth of the match and for long term stability. I can bypass the T network and then with a simple L network I was able to match the tower (slant wire) perfectly for 160 meters. The TX was great - RX not so much (very high noise level). 73, Tim VP2V/K3LR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of DALE LONG Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:18 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Gentlemen: I have been reluctant to ask for help which did not relate directly to our reflector. But today I got up my courage, so here goes. I have been invited to lead a group of amateurs to help build an AM tower in Haiti. Two things that may relate to some of our readers: 1. I will be returning to Haiti in November to build a 240foot AM broadcast tower. I know there are many AM broadcast engineers on this list and would like to have your advice. Specifically we are searching for a large conical base insulator. Sometimes when a tower rusts, they are disgarded or thrown on a pile somewhere. We would like to buy one, and possibly a tower as well. 2. In December of this year, I am organizing a small group to go to Haiti and participate in the 160m contest. (this of course is dependent on the tower being built.) I am particularly pleased that amateurs have been invited to help. Sometimes broadcast engineers do not have the highest opinions of amateur installations. So we do want to do it right. We have a 9-acre parcel of land along the ocean and part of the area is a salt-water marsh. I think there hasnt been any serious 160m activity from Haiti for a number of years. This location would present a nice opportunity for a serious lowband operation. If you have any information about base insulators/towers, or if you would like to join a 160m dxpedition to Haiti, please respond off the reflector to n3b...@gmail.com Thanks for your time. Dale - N3BNA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
> Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. 240 feet tuned/matched with a parallel tuned tapped tank should work quite well based on the information in K3LC's article in QEX Nov/Dec 2013. Of course, 240 feet would also make an excellent support for a wire 4 square or parasitic array aimed back across the center of the US (for ARRL 160). 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2/25/2014 3:38 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: Congratulations on your adventure. In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you get an advance team out to the site to check out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
I would be especially mindful of corrosion issues in tower planning in the Caribbean. There was a recent article in the Contest Journal on the ever difficult tower corrosion experienced at PJ2T. On Feb 25, 2014, at 1:17 PM, DALE LONG wrote: > Gentlemen: > > I have been reluctant to ask for help which did not relate directly to our > reflector. But today I got up my courage, so here goes. I have been invited > to lead a group of amateurs to help build an AM tower in Haiti. > > > Two things that may relate to some of our readers: > > 1. I will be returning to Haiti in November to build a 240foot AM broadcast > tower. I know there are many AM broadcast engineers on this list and would > like to have your advice. Specifically we are searching for a large conical > base insulator. Sometimes when a tower rusts, they are disgarded or thrown > on a pile somewhere. We would like to buy one, and possibly a tower as well. > > 2. In December of this year, I am organizing a small group to go to Haiti and > participate in the 160m contest. (this of course is dependent on the tower > being built.) > > I am particularly pleased that amateurs have been invited to help. Sometimes > broadcast engineers do not have the highest opinions of amateur > installations. So we do want to do it right. We have a 9-acre parcel of > land along the ocean and part of the area is a salt-water marsh. I think > there hasnt been any serious 160m activity from Haiti for a number of years. > This location would present a nice opportunity for a serious lowband > operation. > > If you have any information about base insulators/towers, or if you would > like to join a 160m dxpedition to Haiti, please respond off the reflector to > n3b...@gmail.com > > Thanks for your time. > > Dale - N3BNA > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
No, I don't believe 240' is too high - especially if the tower has a base insulator! It would be so close to 1/2 wave on 160, that it could be fed very well as a 1/2 wave radiator on 160, either via a parallel tuned tank or a 1/4 wave of perhaps 450 oh ladder line. A 1/2 wave radiator wis an excellent transmit antenna, and, because of the high feed-point impedance can be driven against a very modest ground arrangement Like you, though, I believe they would do well to put up some terminated loops, or perhaps a Beverage (or 3?) for receive antennas! A 240' vertical would, I think, be a VERY noisy receive antenna. If they put up a KAZ terminated loop that only requires one overhead support, they could steer it around with ropes and weights on the ground. The KAZ is like ON4UN's FO0AAA 160 receive loop. 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard Karlquist Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:38 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition Congratulations on your adventure. In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you get an advance team out to the site to check out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: AM broadcast tower and 160m dxpedition
Congratulations on your adventure. In the past, I have seen some of these AM tower efforts ruined by lousy receive conditions. I suggest you get an advance team out to the site to check out the noise level etc. and maybe put up some temporary beverages, loops, whatever and LISTEN on them. Use WWV and WWVH on 2.5 MHz as a beacon. Others can comment on whether 240 feet is too high. Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
