Re: Topband: DSL knocks out when on TopBand
On 7/16/2012 10:36 PM, W2RU - Bud Hippisley wrote: Herb ( others) — I struggled to keep my 160- and 80-meter RF out of my DSL equipment for a number of years. Multiple turns of all cables in/out of the DSL modem (Siemens Speedstream) on #31ferrites, etc. The best progress occurred when I wrapped the modem in common kitchen aluminum foil and very carefully attached a ground wire to the foil. (Use very big flat washers on both sides of the foil!) But I still experienced occasional disconnects. This past year my telco started supplying Westell Model 7500 DSL modems to new customers and my favorite telco tech saw that I got one, too. I haven't observed a single DSL outage since then. And I haven't even wrapped it in aluminum foil! Other things that will help: * If you can do it, relocate your incoming telephone line and/or your 160-meter antenna (and its radial field) for greater separation of the two or for altered orientation between the two. * Get your 160 (and perhaps 80) antenna farther from both the outdoor telco line and the indoor telco lines (i.e., your house). Bud, W2RU On Jul 16, 2012, at 9:34 PM, KL7RA wrote: I solved this exact problem by blowing up the DSL modem on 160 and ACS came out with a new one they said was more RFI proof and it was. Westell is on the factory logo. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK Thanks to all who responded with suggestions. It is interesting that nobody suggested the K-Com or K-Y filters. I looked up the Westell 7500 and see that it is a modem router with no provision for a telephone like my present DSL modem has (Zhone). My modem is a simple pass through unit that separates the telephone service from the internet and provides me a single RJ-45 that goes to my router. I am left with putting ferrite cores on the power cable from the wall wart and I will also plug my lap top directly into the unit to see if the 60 foot CAT 5 cable going to the router being removed has any effect.Then I guess the aluminum foil shielding or even building an aluminum enclosure with all leads filtered may be what I have to do. I will also ask the DSL provider if they have any newer modems. Thanks again for you help on this problem. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: DSL knocks out when on TopBand
Herb, ADSL, which sounds like what you have, has carriers right up to mid broadcast band or so. The upper frequency carriers that go up above 1 MHz are the from the modem to your house, while stuff down low is from you back to the DSLAM. This makes modems very susceptible to 160 meter signals. Because the incoming ADSL signal extends right up through AM BC, the modem is ALWAYS very difficult to filter. You are not trying to remove audio from something 1000 times higher in frequency. You are trying to remove RF from something weak running at 15-60% your operating frequency! My NW antenna pattern puts 10dB nearfield increase into the building where my ADSL modem is!!! Even 200-300 watts shut down my original ADSL modem, because it lost incoming signal lock. Normal methods, even things that normally work great for out-of-band, often won't work. To build a filter, you have to know what you are filtering. I changed to a 2wire brand modem, which has excellent immunity to out-of-band signals. I also built a notch filter for 160 meters that has a series-resonant circuit between wires, and parallel tuned traps in series with the modem Telco line. I adjusted the L/C values and filter configuration here so the filter actually peaked the higher frequency carriers, and the filter actually increased my connection speed (I'm well beyond the normal allowable limit of distance to the DSLAM where ADSL originates). From my experience, you are going to waste a lot of time tossing iron or regular filters at the problem. The key is good modem, like a 2wire modem, and if that doesn't work, a really sharp roll-off filter. Tossing iron at the CAT5 cables is OK, but it is not often useful on the Telco side. 73 Tom - Original Message - From: Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: TopBand List topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 8:57 PM Subject: Topband: DSL knocks out when on TopBand Fortunately I have a Wi-Max service that is immune from RFI but I frequently use a DSL service for remote control with guest ops during contests. The DSL is more reliable in so much is I get 1.5 Mbps up and down all the time and every time. (The Wi-Max at times gives me CW hick-ups and although it works with Icom's RS-BA1 remote this does not compare with reliability and flawless remote paddle CW using Remote Rig and a Kenwood TS-2000. Remote ops prefer being able to have a real rig head in front of them and use a local paddle as well.) My problem is that when I try to operate on 160 the DSL crashes. I have tried many Type 31 3 inch ferrite rings with 20 turns on both the phone line and the Cat 5 cable from the Zhone modem but even at 200 watts the DSL looses sync. I even have disconnected all phones and faxes but to no avail. I'm sure this problem has been around this site for some time but I would like any information on what i should try. My telephone line enters the shack about 70 feet from a cage fed 85 foot tower and the nearby 80 meter 1/4 wave vertical does not cause problems, only the 160 meter antenna, and with relatively low power. I don't hear any audible IX on the telephone while transmitting which leads me to believe my problem is not a simple one to solve. Any suggestions on what to try like using CAt 5 cable to the pole instead of normal drop wire, RF Chokes, K-Y or K-Com filters, what works best with a DSL with 160 meter IX problems. Please let me know. Thanks, Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: DSL knocks out when on TopBand
With ATT Uverse I had the experience of adding common mode chokes (#31 ferrite) on a long run of cat 5 and having it knock down the desired signal. The cat 5 is not all that well balanced, and putting the hurts on the unbalance also knocks down the main signal which was marginal to start with. In the end we had to redo the layout so the long runs of cat 5 had ethernet on them instead of Uverse's 147 kHz through 7.9 MHz VDSL...AND...change out the 2Wire 3800 gateway to a 3801...AND...replace the entire buried loop from the pole into the house (550') and its umpteen splices over the years with a continuous piece of modern shielded pairs. In the end the little insertion filters they have were better than anything I could wind around the 3801. I use the ferrite around the in-house ethernet cat5 on the TV and PC ends. There was a similar problem with the neighbor. He has a 2Wire 3801 now as well. He also had to have his loop from the pole replaced. I put a bunch of ferrite on his TV side as well. When I'm on 160 QRO, we both have a lot of corrected errors to start and then the modem starts adjusting bit rates on individual VDSL carriers or locking them out. After a while there won't even be corrected errors. The 3801 has a much better protocol than the 3800, and has hugely more buffering for handling a flood of errors at onset of interference. But don't see any hits on TV, internet or phone. Some or all of these problems will need to be solved at xDSL sites with interference. Quality of modem/gateway definitely can be a problem. 73, Guy ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: DSL knocks out when on TopBand
Thanks to all who replied with ideas to make TB operation possible with a DSL here. It appears that some boxes are better than others so I am starting to compile a list of the good ones. I am also planing to get some shielded drop wire from the pole. The local provider has only unshielded devices (Zhone) which is a simple device for a phone plug and a single RJ-45 to go to your router. On line there are many devices called filter/splitters but I don't think these are true filters but seem to be a device to separate analog telephone audio from the DSL ISP singles. So far so good but I had heard that some companies want to add ADSL-2 Plus which uses frequencies all the way up to 2.1 Mhz. Now I don't know how a company can legally market produces that just won't work near a radio station because these devices are receivers for the very frequencies the interfering station is licensed to transmit upon. For the later ADSL-2 Plus there is no known cure for such a radio receiver hooked to miles of copper and able to receive signals precisely where you are transmitting. Maybe if the whole service was placed underground from plant to homeor if they go the whole route of direct fiber to home there might be some light at the end of the bundle. (Pun intented) With the expansion of DSL services phone companies are offering cable, video, telephone bundles that customers may find attractive but may prove to be a nightmare for top operations. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 7/17/2012 7:53 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: Herb, ADSL, which sounds like what you have, has carriers right up to mid broadcast band or so. The upper frequency carriers that go up above 1 MHz are the from the modem to your house, while stuff down low is from you back to the DSLAM. This makes modems very susceptible to 160 meter signals. Because the incoming ADSL signal extends right up through AM BC, the modem is ALWAYS very difficult to filter. You are not trying to remove audio from something 1000 times higher in frequency. You are trying to remove RF from something weak running at 15-60% your operating frequency! My NW antenna pattern puts 10dB nearfield increase into the building where my ADSL modem is!!! Even 200-300 watts shut down my original ADSL modem, because it lost incoming signal lock. Normal methods, even things that normally work great for out-of-band, often won't work. To build a filter, you have to know what you are filtering. I changed to a 2wire brand modem, which has excellent immunity to out-of-band signals. I also built a notch filter for 160 meters that has a series-resonant circuit between wires, and parallel tuned traps in series with the modem Telco line. I adjusted the L/C values and filter configuration here so the filter actually peaked the higher frequency carriers, and the filter actually increased my connection speed (I'm well beyond the normal allowable limit of distance to the DSLAM where ADSL originates). From my experience, you are going to waste a lot of time tossing iron or regular filters at the problem. The key is good modem, like a 2wire modem, and if that doesn't work, a really sharp roll-off filter. Tossing iron at the CAT5 cables is OK, but it is not often useful on the Telco side. 73 Tom - Original Message - From: Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: TopBand List topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 8:57 PM Subject: Topband: DSL knocks out when on TopBand Fortunately I have a Wi-Max service that is immune from RFI but I frequently use a DSL service for remote control with guest ops during contests. The DSL is more reliable in so much is I get 1.5 Mbps up and down all the time and every time. (The Wi-Max at times gives me CW hick-ups and although it works with Icom's RS-BA1 remote this does not compare with reliability and flawless remote paddle CW using Remote Rig and a Kenwood TS-2000. Remote ops prefer being able to have a real rig head in front of them and use a local paddle as well.) My problem is that when I try to operate on 160 the DSL crashes. I have tried many Type 31 3 inch ferrite rings with 20 turns on both the phone line and the Cat 5 cable from the Zhone modem but even at 200 watts the DSL looses sync. I even have disconnected all phones and faxes but to no avail. I'm sure this problem has been around this site for some time but I would like any information on what i should try. My telephone line enters the shack about 70 feet from a cage fed 85 foot tower and the nearby 80 meter 1/4 wave vertical does not cause problems, only the 160 meter antenna, and with relatively low power. I don't hear any audible IX on the telephone while transmitting which leads me to believe my problem is not a simple one to solve. Any suggestions on what to try like using CAt 5 cable to the pole instead of normal drop wire, RF Chokes, K-Y or K-Com filters, what works best
Re: Topband: DSL knocks out when on topband
On 17/07/2012 16:45, Tom Boucher wrote: On the recommendation of John G3PQA, I recently changed my router from a D-Link unit to an ADDON NWAR-3670 which appears to have much better RFI immunity. I'm not getting any dropouts at all now and I do not have an OZ1CTK type filter in line, just some ferrite rings of unknown origin on all the lines in and out. With the old D-Link router the internet connection would drop when running 50W on 160 or 80 even though my antennas are some 3 or 400 feet away from the house and 'phone line. Some of the newer modems are plainly more RFI proof. I've never had the problem with the Draytek I bought some years ago to overcome the problem of a weak signal at the end of a long line from the exchange. Previous modems needed rebooting after any activity on any of the amateur bands. I keep the laptop in the shack (which is in the garden) and had to use a lot of ferrite to stop that making rude noises in the receiver, and the transmitter causing the laptop to crash. The desktop PC in the house is about 60 feet from the antenna, and is no factor. I heard today that WiFi in the village where we have our holiday cottage has become almost unuseable, car remote locking devices now don't work, most people suffer TVI, and wireless doorbells are unreliable. Nobody knows why, although my neighbour did remark that the water company has just put up a big mast with a log periodic on it. There was a movement to blame me, but he explained that I don't have any equipment there. 73 Keith G3OIT ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: DSL knocks out when on TopBand
On 7/17/2012 3:38 AM, N1BUG wrote: What about the drop from the pole to my NID? That is not twisted. That's likely a contributor. 73, Jim K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: DSL knocks out when on TopBand
Herb ( others) — I struggled to keep my 160- and 80-meter RF out of my DSL equipment for a number of years. Multiple turns of all cables in/out of the DSL modem (Siemens Speedstream) on #31ferrites, etc. The best progress occurred when I wrapped the modem in common kitchen aluminum foil and very carefully attached a ground wire to the foil. (Use very big flat washers on both sides of the foil!) But I still experienced occasional disconnects. This past year my telco started supplying Westell Model 7500 DSL modems to new customers and my favorite telco tech saw that I got one, too. I haven't observed a single DSL outage since then. And I haven't even wrapped it in aluminum foil! Other things that will help: * If you can do it, relocate your incoming telephone line and/or your 160-meter antenna (and its radial field) for greater separation of the two or for altered orientation between the two. * Get your 160 (and perhaps 80) antenna farther from both the outdoor telco line and the indoor telco lines (i.e., your house). Bud, W2RU On Jul 16, 2012, at 9:34 PM, KL7RA wrote: I solved this exact problem by blowing up the DSL modem on 160 and ACS came out with a new one they said was more RFI proof and it was. Westell is on the factory logo. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
