Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mike Waters]

Guy,

This *really* opened my eyes. Thank you, Mr. Wizard (no sarcasm intended)!
It appears that FT8 is actually our friend, fellow long-time Topbanders,
whether we intend to operate that mode or not.

FWIW, I don't intend to use that mode. If I ever do, it won't be in the
customary CW portion at the low end of 160. Use it or lose it, people! :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Oct 25, 2017 10:32 PM, "Guy Olinger K2AV"  wrote:

>From time to time, tickling the RBN nodes on 160 proves that the band is
open, sometimes nicely so. The almost constant FT8 signals nail it.

People get on the band when they think there will be someone to talk to,
this includes trying to get some elusive DX.

In the end FT8 will prove that the band is there. The extent to which the
band is actually open, by the constant FT8, will start to change people's
thought about when the bands are normally open, both time of day and
seasons.

The number of CW contest logs submitted to contest sponsors is going up.
This is decades after No Code. And it certainly seems like some ops are
learning their CW skills after they have been a ham for a while. People
have been saying that CW seemingly forever. I still love CW but truthfully
I can't argue that it isn't obsolete.

*** The question that doesn't get asked is whether CW is still FUN.***

If it's still fun, it ain't going away, including such as the thrill of
digging a rare one on CW out of the noise with your own brain and ears.

Anyone who was around when we lost 11 meters, knows that lack of activity
loses frequencies.

Bring it on.  Bring it all on. We'll figure it out just fine. There are
some really smart people in the ham ranks. We'll do OK

73, Guy K2AV

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:49 PM, Michael Walker 
wrote:

>
> Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals.
> No one calling CQ and everyone just listening.
>
> If you build it they will come.
>
> Mike va3mw
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Dave AA6YQ]

>>>AA6YQ comments below

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of John K9UWA
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 12:03 PM
To: topBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

Someone will develop a software program that takes the human voice or CW and 
packetize it much the same as cell phones already do
into digital packet form. Then it will be added to the carrier or lack thereof 
similar to SSB and or CW. On the receive end the
software will convert it back to analog. Once again we will hear the signal 
after it is processed into analog coming out of our
speakers in either CW or Phone sounds. Perhaps a 7 to
10 second delay for all the processing to take place.

>>>That was accomplished long ago, and without significant encoding or decoding 
>>>delays. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-STAR

This FT8 program has the ability to extract the digital signals from the noise 
and process them up to 10-15 dB below the noise
level. So why can't the human voice be processed in a similar manner?

>>>Besides callsign and gridsquare information, FT8 can convey only 13 
>>>characters of arbitrary alphanumeric text with each message;
this is less than what would be required to convey a meaningful snippet of the 
(encoded) sender's voice. Technical details are
provided in an article by Joe K1JT et al in the November issue of QST.

>>>The K1JT modes employ ruthless encoding and error correction to enable 
>>>constrained communications when signal-to-noise ratios are
far lower than what's required by other digital modes, CW or SSB. In terms of 
information content, human voice is quite inefficient;
thus the developers of these modes are unlikely to extend them to convey voice.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[John K9UWA]

Someone will develop a software program that takes the human voice or 
CW and packetize it much the same as cell phones already do into digital 
packet form. Then it will be added to the carrier or lack thereof similar to 
SSB and or CW. On the receive end the software will convert it back to 
analog. Once again we will hear the signal after it is processed into analog 
coming out of our speakers in either CW or Phone sounds. Perhaps a 7 to 
10 second delay for all the processing to take place.

This FT8 program has the ability to extract the digital signals from the noise 
and process them up to 10-15 dB below the noise level. So why can't the 
human voice be processed in a similar manner?

73
John k9uwa "TopBand since 1971"
We've Come A Long Way, Baby


> Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled 
with FT-8
> and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down 
and
> what do you think the future holds?
>
> Vy 73
>
> Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF 
Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Dave Sharred via Topband]

Hi Steve
Sorry we never got on 160 , but many problems setting up the station
We are hopeful to get on tomorrow and Tuesday, hoping enough station won't be 
packed away! Vk4ma just asked about a sked too.
73 dave


Sent from Samsung tablet

 Original message 
From: Steve Ireland  
Date: 25/10/2017  09:25  (GMT+00:00) 
To: Topband reflector  
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) 

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 
and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and 
what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


---
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Ian_Wade_G3NRW via Topband]

Hi Steve

You've certainly stirred up some QRM here!

I can visualize you right now, tinny in one hand and turning the barbie 
with the other, saying to yourself: "Was it something I said?"


:-)

--
73
Ian, G3NRW
g3...@g3nrw.net

* Editor: TS-590 Family Resources Page: http://g3nrw.net/TS-590

On 25/10/2017 09:25, Steve Ireland wrote:

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

[big snip]


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

>From time to time, tickling the RBN nodes on 160 proves that the band is
open, sometimes nicely so. The almost constant FT8 signals nail it.

People get on the band when they think there will be someone to talk to,
this includes trying to get some elusive DX.

In the end FT8 will prove that the band is there. The extent to which the
band is actually open, by the constant FT8, will start to change people's
thought about when the bands are normally open, both time of day and
seasons.

The number of CW contest logs submitted to contest sponsors is going up.
This is decades after No Code. And it certainly seems like some ops are
learning their CW skills after they have been a ham for a while. People
have been saying that CW seemingly forever. I still love CW but truthfully
I can't argue that it isn't obsolete.

*** The question that doesn't get asked is whether CW is still FUN.***

If it's still fun, it ain't going away, including such as the thrill of
digging a rare one on CW out of the noise with your own brain and ears.

Anyone who was around when we lost 11 meters, knows that lack of activity
loses frequencies.

Bring it on.  Bring it all on. We'll figure it out just fine. There are
some really smart people in the ham ranks. We'll do OK

73, Guy K2AV

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:49 PM, Michael Walker 
wrote:

>
> Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals.
> No one calling CQ and everyone just listening.
>
> If you build it they will come.
>
> Mike va3mw
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[CJ Johnson]

Read the full content of my message, specifically the portion where i said:

“One can on any given evening call CQ in the CW sub band and get picked up
by skimmers around the world, yet not get a reply”

73

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:49 PM Michael Walker  wrote:

>
> Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals.
> No one calling CQ and everyone just listening.
>
> If you build it they will come.
>
> Mike va3mw
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Michael Walker]

Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals.  No 
one calling CQ and everyone just listening.

If you build it they will come. 

Mike va3mw
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[CJ Johnson]

Steve, as a relatively “young” ham living in a populous area, I have some
things to offer to this thread...

To give you some background: I’m 36, been licensed since 1994. Did the
whole progression before code was eliminated all the way to Extra. Took
electronics classes in high school and when the instructor found out I was
a ham, instantly gave me more detailed and demanding assignments. That’s
all fun, I love CW as well but now, as a technologist, I love the fusion of
technology and radio. It makes it interesting.

I was at first skeptical of FT-8 on the HF bands after using it for 6M weak
signal stuff. That (in my mind) was the band for this type of stuff. I can
accept my line of thinking was wrong.

One can on any given evening call CQ in the CW sub band and get picked up
by skimmers around the world, yet not get a reply. This was even before
FT-8 came on the scene. I can call CQ on SSB and get someone who wants to
talk about politics, health problems, or some other inane subject that
definitely will be boring (if you want to talk about trading on a
investment bank desk, statistics, structuring MBS products or the challenge
of refactoring a large system then i’d love to chat). To each their own.
I’m not judging.

With all of the hubaloo expressed in the past day or so I got on FT-8 and
have had contacts.

It’s not the “end of radio” but rather another natural progression of the
hobby. I even have my co-workers now interested (all 20-somethings) in ham
radio in the office just because during the day today I dedicated one of my
monitors to my station at home running FT8 on 15 & 20. They were curious
and I got the questions of “isn’t ham radio just full of grumpy old people
hanging on to irrelevant technology and ideas?”

I replied: “no, this is a practical example of what ham radio was
originally conceived to accomplish... experimentation and the advancement
of technology”.

Ham Radio should not be “my way or the highway”.

73
WT2P

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:25 AM Steve Ireland  wrote:

> G’day
>
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
>
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all
> the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of
> Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east
> England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.
>
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology
> over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).
>
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by
> being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan
> boy!).
>
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.
>
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
> nothing to do with the audible.
>
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
> modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
> digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at
> dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
> amounts of noise.
>
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer
> or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly
> on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
>
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
> quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
> have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
> DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.
>
> Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is
> a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
> can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On
> some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.
>
> There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW
> (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the
> heap of FT-8 activi

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[George Taft via Topband]

I'm with you, Steve.  BRAVO!
73  George  W8UVZ 

On Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:31 AM, Hans Hjelmström 
 wrote:
 

 Hi Steve

I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is 
more or less lost.

According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any 
personal feeling.
And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio…..
Next is to let your computer make these so called QSO:s during the day when you 
work,
and during night ,when you are at sleep.You only check once per day,,what 
contacts he 
made, and the computer log for you.And send info to LOTW.Not any cards to look 
at
any more. Just check your standings once per month at computer.
At this point all social-connection is gone ,and you can just sit back and 
rest,,,

It was the same this  season on 50 mc. After 5th of July ,there was almost NO
stations on either CW or SSB. People that I know of, having no interest in
the challenge of magic band,  worked ??? countries that they never could dream 
of before.

I feel that ARRL should make a new dxcc for only Digi-modes that gives 
report less as  - 1 db.    Like in past ,when they used to need a report of 
minimum 33 or 339. As computer make the ,,,so called qso, and also write
the report ,that should be easy to do.And this modes should NOT be 
counted for the other dxcc-awards. Doing this ,a lot of people ,can work a new 
dxcc ,if they like ,on these digi  modes, and not destroy the old awards.

I sent an e-mail concerning this to ARRL about one month ago, to one of the 
top-guys at
dxcc-award.  His lazy answer was more or less::: Use ,take it or leave it. Its 
new times.
He / they were NOT interested to think it over, not even do they care.
His answer was really not for a hobby. It was just too much for him to think of.

WORSE of all is : that it takes away challenge to increase antennas,station and
your operating skills.  In all other hobbies,,, this is most important, to give 
some
advantage to these that do something extra

VERY SORRY, BUT if 50 mc and also 1.8 mc is going to be the same this and 
coming 2018 season,  I stop my ham-radio and will do something else.
I give it to end of 2018 ,to see if any changements will come.

I think the best to solve this shit,,, is to make a separate dxcc award for 
it,
and not mix with the others.

Sorry for long e-mail, BUT I can tell you,  for sure,,,many many Hams around 
our globe,feels similar as you and me.

Kind regards

Hans  SM6CVX

> 25 okt 2017 kl. 10:25 skrev Steve Ireland :
> 
> G’day
> 
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
> 
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
> sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
> that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, 
> I am one sick puppy.
> 
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
> the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 
> 
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
> able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).
> 
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 
> 
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast 
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had 
> nothing to do with the audible.
> 
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket 
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes 
> of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital 
> modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing 
> with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of 
> noise.  
> 
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure 
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
> DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
> first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
> 
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have 
> quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have 
> QSOs alm

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Wes Stewart]

On 10/25/2017 12:38 PM, Charlie Young wrote:

...The first big thrill was hearing my own CW echo several days in a row, 
before getting my 8877 amp finished and firing up JT65A.
One of the biggest thrills in my ham radio life was hearing my 144 MHz moon 
echos using a station, that except for the coax, was entirely homebuilt.


Another was W5LFL saying, from shuttle Columbia, "N7WS, you're the loudest 
station we've heard in the spacecraft"  Four long Yagis on an az-el mount and an 
8877 will do that for you, especially with FM capture effect:-)


Wes  N7WS
_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Charlie Young]

I think the game changing aspect of FT8 is that many folks who would normally 
be available to work on CW or SSB  will now be on FT8.   The amount of activity 
on the FT8 frequency of any band is phenomenal.

This summer I constructed a 4 x 7 LFA stack on 6 meters, primarily because the 
largest remaining opportunity for Challenge points as I close in on 3000 is on 
6 meters, along with 160 and 80.  I thought, might as well add elevation and go 
for 6 EME. Except for RTTY, I was inactive on digital modes, so downloaded 
WSJTX and started working JT65A on EME.  On a whim, I fired up on FT8.

There will be FT8 activity, and usually lots of it, on just about any HF band 
and usually it will be there when there is little or no other activity.  It is 
a bottomless pit of stations to work.  The active callsigns seen there are well 
known DXer’s from CW and SSB, along with a whole bunch of newer callsigns that 
are unrecognized.

Although I was QRT on 6 for most of the summer due to the construction, the 
spots were closely watched.  It seemed to me that early in the season, there 
was an explosion of JT65A activity.  After the release of FT8, it seemed 
everyone switched to that.  There were hardly any spots on CW.

It is very easy to make QSO’s with FT8, almost no effort.  The sensitivity of 
the mode for weak signal work is attracting a large following, along with the 
faster speed of making a QSO compared to JT65.  I have been on FT8 on a casual 
basis for about 2 weeks, and likely have 500 QSO’s logged, including some new 
digital counters and a couple of Challenge band fills.  I have not listened to 
FT8 on Topband.

Anything that sparks this level of interest can only be good for the long term 
future of ham radio.  Personally, I will be completely disappointed if we can’t 
find DX to work on CW, since that is my favorite activity in ham radio, 
especially 160.   It remains to be seen if FT8 will take over on 160 like it 
seems to have done on some other bands.  Hopefully, there will be something for 
all of us to enjoy on our favorite band.

Regarding 6 EME, being completely new, I was surprised to be able to detect by 
ear many of the signals, and to be able to see traces on just about anyone we 
can decode.  The first big thrill was hearing my own CW echo several days in a 
row, before getting my 8877 amp finished and firing up JT65A.

Being 70 years old now, I decided to pursue Challenge points where they can be 
found, regardless of mode.  No time to waste looking backward, if there is any 
hope to get 3000 while I am still above the grass.

73  Charlie N8RR












rr






c








_
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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[José E . Ribeiro de Sá]

No FT8 for me in topband or 6m, in fact in all bands, Hi!
Exception made for the 60m band (5 MHz), but if the station shows up in CW I 
would rather work it CW than in FT8.


I'm an IT guy, but this is a hobby and I want radio no computer's when 
working DX.
I do work RTTY and PSK, there's still some human intervention and the 
computer doesn't makes all the QSO for you.


73  Jose  CT1EEB

- Original Message - 
From: "Hans Hjelmström" 
To: "Steve Ireland" ; ; "sm6cmU" 
; 
Cc: "Peter Andersson" ; ; "Kjell Nerlich" 


Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)



Hi Steve

I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio 
is more or less lost.


According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any 
personal feeling.

And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio…..
Next is to let your computer make these so called QSO:s during the day 
when you work,
and during night ,when you are at sleep.You only check once per day,,what 
contacts he
made, and the computer log for you.And send info to LOTW.Not any cards to 
look at

any more. Just check your standings once per month at computer.
At this point all social-connection is gone ,and you can just sit back and 
rest,,,


It was the same this  season on 50 mc. After 5th of July ,there was almost 
NO

stations on either CW or SSB. People that I know of, having no interest in
the challenge of magic band,  worked ??? countries that they never could 
dream of before.


I feel that ARRL should make a new dxcc for only Digi-modes that gives
report less as  - 1 db.Like in past ,when they used to need a report 
of

minimum 33 or 339. As computer make the ,,,so called qso, and also write
the report ,that should be easy to do.And this modes should NOT be
counted for the other dxcc-awards. Doing this ,a lot of people ,can work a 
new dxcc ,if they like ,on these digi  modes, and not destroy the old 
awards.


I sent an e-mail concerning this to ARRL about one month ago, to one of 
the top-guys at
dxcc-award.  His lazy answer was more or less::: Use ,take it or leave it. 
Its new times.

He / they were NOT interested to think it over, not even do they care.
His answer was really not for a hobby. It was just too much for him to 
think of.


WORSE of all is : that it takes away challenge to increase 
antennas,station and
your operating skills.  In all other hobbies,,, this is most important, to 
give some

advantage to these that do something extra

VERY SORRY, BUT if 50 mc and also 1.8 mc is going to be the same this and 
coming 2018 season,  I stop my ham-radio and will do something else.

I give it to end of 2018 ,to see if any changements will come.

I think the best to solve this shit,,, is to make a separate dxcc 
award for it,

and not mix with the others.

Sorry for long e-mail, BUT I can tell you,  for sure,,,many many Hams 
around our globe,feels similar as you and me.


Kind regards

Hans  SM6CVX


25 okt 2017 kl. 10:25 skrev Steve Ireland :

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with 
white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never 
been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence 
of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.


For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all 
the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound 
of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east 
England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.


With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology 
over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what 
DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).


It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by 
being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan 
boy!).


During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.


As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the 
vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it 
had nothing to do with the audible.


The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop 
Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were 
still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as 
these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were 
not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered 
in varying amounts of noise.


While some 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Jim Brown]

On 10/25/2017 10:17 AM, Chortek, Robert L. wrote:

I rarely weigh in these debates (and don’t even know what these digital modes 
are except in the most general terms) but I don’t see any movement whatsoever 
to (a) require folks to use digital modes, or (b) prevent folks from using the 
traditional modes they enjoy have enjoyed for years.

I just don’t see a problem here.


I've been working on QRP WAS on Topband for several years, and last fall 
was down to needing WV, SC, and VT.  All QSOs were CW, and made during 
contests. A major reason those states are tough to work QRP is that 
Topband ops stay up late during contests, but go to bed when the band 
closes to EU. Another is that if a station includes one RX antenna, it's 
beaming to EU.


I use WSJT modes a lot on 6M chasing grids, and last fall, started 
monitoring the 160M JT65 frequency. Over about five months, I logged 
(SWL) more than 950 different stations from every US state except VT, 
most VE provinces, all continents, and about 20 countries. A sked 
produced a QSO with a station in the WV panhandle. On an average night I 
copied at least 30-40 stations running JT65. Rarely did I hear more CW 
stations than I could count with the fingers of one hand. One night I 
made the only QSO with EU (an SM station) of the season, and running 
about 1kW; the dozen or so EU stations I logged (again SWL), are the 
only ones received here in more than three years! EU is not easy on 
Topband from NorCal.  And by the way -- all that JT65 activity is packed 
into about 2 kHz of bandwidth!


IMO, traditional topband operation IS a dying thing. How many OTs will 
deign to respond to a weak CQ from an op new to topband to provide 
encouragement?  How many of us find topband noise levels growing every 
year? How many of us take the time to chase down and kill the sources? 
How many of these sources are out of our control? How many of us have 
space for decent 160 TX and RX antennas?  I do --  three TX and four RX 
-- but I'm one of the lucky few. And my noise level increases every year.


K1JT's WSJT modes offer a solution to the noise issue, by their ability 
to decode signals 10-15 dB deeper into the noise than even the best CW 
ops can copy.  Many of us have fun on 6M making QSOs via meteor scatter 
using K1JT's MSK144.


73, Jim K9YC

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[W0MU]

I am pretty serious about DXing.  I am not on the honor roll.  I have 
over 300 confirmed.  I couldn't tell you who is at the top. Why does it 
matter?  Those at the top did it their way, whatever that was.  Some did 
it all from their own homes and never moved, many started over, many 
today use remote stations all over their own county and probably beyond 
some use 100 watts, some use 1000 some use 5000 or more.


I can't compete with the DX guy on the East Coast or with the guy with 
200 ft towers and room for huge antennas.  DXCC is nowhere close to a 
level playing field.


The ARRL did not make it a competition.  They sell awards.  They could 
and should offer more awards and endorsements because I think people 
would buy them.


FT8 is not a level playing field all it does is allow people that could 
not even get on the field to do so.  My ft tower and a tribander is king 
over a guy with his hidden wire in the attic on FT8 just like it is on 
CW or SSB or RTTY.


To work rare dx on FT8 requires them to get on FT8.  S79 popped up on 
17m just as I left he was -20db down.  I didn't get him.  I believe 3Y0X 
is going to try FT8, that should be a zoo!  I can't wait for a bunch of 
people who have never tried the mode to learn that day!  It will be 
gloriously poor.


W0MU


On 10/25/2017 12:17 PM, Mark K3MSB wrote:

As I’ve said before, I don’t believe it’s a case of FT8 being “good” or
“bad” for ham radio.   The problem is a level playing field for competition
purposes.

Personally, I don’t believe statements such as “Your DXCC is your own” or
“Your DXCC is what you make of it” etc.  Rubbish.All serious DXers are
always looking to see where there are in the pecking order of
accomplishments.  If you’re a serious DXer and don’t care where you stand
among your peers,  then while you may be out there, I figure you’re few and
far between.

The ARRL could easily & significantly mitigate this by allowing band
specific DXCC awards with mode endorsements; stated alternately,  160M
DXCC-CW,  160M DXCC-FT8,  40M-Digital, 17M-SSB etc.

I’ve been a software engineer for 35 years.   While I appreciate the
complexity aspects of such a change to the DXCC award program,  I believe
the only real factor standing in the way of making such a change is the
ARRL’s desire to do so.It’s not rocket science.Make your voices
known.

For those that claim that mode is not important,  then ask the ARRL and CQ
to get rid of mode specific contests.   We’ll just have a single CQ WW
where you can use SSB, RTTY, Digital etc, one ARRL DX Competition where any
mode goes.See how far the contest community will let that one go.

73 Mark K3MSB
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Hank Garretson]

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Dave AA6YQ  wrote:

>
> >>>It's been technically possible to do that with RTTY or PSK for decades.
> No one is interested in running a QSO machine.
>

Shoot, Tree did it with CW DECADES ago.

Contest Exuberantly,

Hank, W6SX
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mark K3MSB]

As I’ve said before, I don’t believe it’s a case of FT8 being “good” or
“bad” for ham radio.   The problem is a level playing field for competition
purposes.

Personally, I don’t believe statements such as “Your DXCC is your own” or
“Your DXCC is what you make of it” etc.  Rubbish.All serious DXers are
always looking to see where there are in the pecking order of
accomplishments.  If you’re a serious DXer and don’t care where you stand
among your peers,  then while you may be out there, I figure you’re few and
far between.

The ARRL could easily & significantly mitigate this by allowing band
specific DXCC awards with mode endorsements; stated alternately,  160M
DXCC-CW,  160M DXCC-FT8,  40M-Digital, 17M-SSB etc.

I’ve been a software engineer for 35 years.   While I appreciate the
complexity aspects of such a change to the DXCC award program,  I believe
the only real factor standing in the way of making such a change is the
ARRL’s desire to do so.It’s not rocket science.Make your voices
known.

For those that claim that mode is not important,  then ask the ARRL and CQ
to get rid of mode specific contests.   We’ll just have a single CQ WW
where you can use SSB, RTTY, Digital etc, one ARRL DX Competition where any
mode goes.See how far the contest community will let that one go.

73 Mark K3MSB
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Chortek, Robert L.]

I rarely weigh in these debates (and don’t even know what these digital modes 
are except in the most general terms) but I don’t see any movement whatsoever 
to (a) require folks to use digital modes, or (b) prevent folks from using the 
traditional modes they enjoy have enjoyed for years.

I just don’t see a problem here.

73,

Bob/AA6VB

Sent from my iPhone
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Dave AA6YQ]

>>>AA6YQ comments below

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of garyk9gs
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:22 AM
To: 'Topband reflector'
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

I was riding to a DX club meeting on Monday night with a friend who recently 
started playing around with FT8.
He said he's worked 60+ countries in a week or so using 100w.  Not on 160m.  He 
said that many of the QSOs were 10 or more db below the noise and many he could 
not hear at all.
All it would take is a few lines of additional code (the QSO itself is already 
automated) to log and find the next contact and one could go to work in the 
morning and come home to find out what you've worked.  The software even 
highlights the "new ones".

>>>It's been technically possible to do that with RTTY or PSK for decades. No 
>>>one is interested in running a QSO machine.

   73,

 Dave, AA6YQ


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Gary Smith]

Steve, 

That was a good read. I see there's a lot 
of replies so I'll send this before 
reeading them...

I too love CW and it is without a doubt my 
favorite mode. You asked a question and I 
have used FT8 and my favorite band is 
Topband, so here's my 2 pence.

I think what might have turned Ham Radio 
upside down was the institution of DXCC (I 
have 329 confirmed, so I participate). 
With that, a pressure began to get the 
current QSO over with and the next one 
started. 

A new subset of the above is the Challenge 
award concept, where one Q was enough for 
DXCC, now the game includes working the 
rare ones on every band and mode. That 
accelerated the rush to get heard and the 
Q over with. The pileups are horrendous 
even for big guns.

I think the next "Upside down" event was 
the advent of the computer which took the 
personality out of logging and made your 
contacts a viewable & printable tally. The 
Apple II+ I had in 81 had a CW/RTTY card. 
I could now send and receive faster than I 
could copy. 

A subset of this above is the dehumanizing 
of the QSO, with my logging program it 
connects to QRZ or Buckmaster and tells 
you the person's name and QTH. Most 
everyone sends 599 when working DX, so you 
don't have to enter it, it's already 
listed by default. Last night I worked a 
TI on SSB, rare for me to be on SSB so 
after he took the time to have my call 
correct and give me a 5X9 report, I gave 
my name, his 5X5 report and my QTH I 
turned it back to him and he said 73, QRZ? 
and that was the QSO. I felt disappointed 
but it is what it has become.

The digital modes are nothing other than a 
logical extension of the computer and 
experimenting; totally inevitable these 
would be. Other than CW & SSB, I have only 
used RTTY and FT8 (maybe 5 JT contacts are 
in there..) but here's my Luddite take on 
FT8:

Last night I did something I have started 
to do, I let FT8 read all night on 160. 
Why? it gives me a good idea of 
propagation that I can read in the 
morning, was there DX, where were the 
signals from and when were they there? For 
last night from CT, only Canada & USA. 
Other nights I've seen some good DX that 
was present. 

How many times have I wondered if there 
might be signals on what seems to be a 
dead band? Sure, low band DX signals are 
not heard during the day, but are there 
any surviving in the most minuscule 
amounts? Logic says almost assuredly not, 
but almost is not 100%. With some of these 
modes, especially WSPR, signals below the 
noise level can be pulled out. That's 
pretty cool and goes against everything I 
believed in this regard. Better Receivers 
can lower the noise floor of course but to 
copy a signal below that new & lower noise 
floor, the mystery still remains. Now you 
can. How much below? that remains to be 
seen by future experimenting.

As to what the future really holds may 
well depend on how much Amateur 
allocations are being used and while for 
most of us, it's a way of life and a 
deeply personal hobby, that's no reason 
for Governments worldwide of offer us 
licenses and permission, these spaces have 
to be earned to be kept. 

I think it's wonderful to see so much 
activity in 2 KHz of space that otherwise 
would be dead air. I love CW, it is a 
challenge and a skill I'm good at, FT8 is 
not a skill, other than getting it to work 
and play nice with other software running 
at the same time (it needs to be willing 
to use virtual ports and WSJT-X software 
is not helpful to this in the least). 

The last I'll offer is how it allows 
people with marginal systems to be able to 
get on the air and have a reasonable 
chance of making contacts that would 
otherwise be impossible. 

I had the pleasure of communicating with 
Carl Smith N4AA (SK) who used to put out 
QRZ-DX. He was in a bad way in Hospice 
care and this is a snip of the last email 
I received from him and it speaks to FT8, 
I don't think he would mind my posting 
that, here:
--Start-
I'm sitting here in this VA Hospice room 
now hoping I can get back on the air 
somehow, sometime soon.

I have talked to the folks here and they 
have agreed to let me get a wire out the 
window for an antenna.

I am on the ground floor on the southeast 
side of the building so it should not be 
too bad with some kind of a portable 
antenna.

If I can get that done, and I AM working 
on it, I'll have my son bring my TS-590S 
digital radio up here and see if I can at 
least try to get on using FT-8. I have 
fallen in love with that mode... hi hi Will 
make my life a lot easier while I'm here 
and allow some measure of being on the 
air.
---Finish---

It is what it is and it's not the end of 
the world of Ham Radio as we knew it, that 
started long ago.

73,

Gary
KA1J


> G´day
> 
> As a committed (yeah, that´s probably the right word - complete with
> white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I´ve
> never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as th

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mike DeChristopher]

I represent the under 30 crowd (for another few years at least) who
isn't really into JT65, FT8, etc.. I still prefer the "between the
ears" -modes. However, I see the JT and other weak signal modes
emerging as a response to real estate limits and restrictions. I was
lucky in that I had space and tolerant parents growing up, so I could
do these things as a kid. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't be
involved in ham radio right now.

If using a digital mode keeps someone involved in ham radio or
generates new interest, then I'm all for it. My DXCC hangs in my own
shack; it means nothing to anyone but me -- and the same is true of
all of yours. If these modes "aren't ham radio" to you, don't use
them. But understand that they're bringing a lot of new activity to
the bands, and especially the low bands; let them have their hobby
without squawking about *your* hobby.

Anyway, there should be plenty of "between the ears" action this
weekend. I believe there's some type of operating event going on.
*smirk*

Mike, N1TA


On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Nick Maslon - K1NZ  wrote:
>
> Hi all, here's my $.02...
>
> Radio is what you make of it. Do what you enjoy. If you don't like the
> digimodes, stay away from them.
>
> DXCC means different things to different people. To some, it means only SSB
> or CW. To others, they're perfectly happy with digi modes. Others want to
> earn DXCC from a station only they have built. Still others work under
> their own call from a multiop station and claim the credit. To each his
> own. It's not worth getting worked up over.
>
> I'm going to get put on blast for this but personally, I love digimodes.
> Outside of contests, I almost exclusively operate digi. It's what I enjoy.
> I'm not proficient enough with CW to have a real impact on the bands and
> phone takes its toll on you after a while.
>
> That being said, I lament FT8 killing off JT65. I do understand they're
> both similar, but JT65 had a more "human" touch in that I did need to click
> the right buttons to send the right text instead of the computer
> automatically doing it for me. Plus, the longer cycle times were more
> conducive to getting in a freeform 73 note.
>
> At the end of the day, this hobby is big enough for everyone. Have fun.
> Enjoy yourself. Make new friends. The magic isn't gone just yet!
>
> 73,
> Nick K1NZ
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[James Wolf]

One can think of FT8 as a Pinball machine or a video game.  You click "here"
at the right time and maybe the ball falls just right and the other station
comes back to you.  If not, you click again.
Preserve the CW/SSB mode awards. 

Jim - KR9U


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mike Waters]

Oooh! Vey well said, Dave!! Short and perfect. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Oct 25, 2017 10:14 AM, "Dave AA6YQ"  wrote:

"Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard;
every op should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the
age of 35 will kill the hobby."

We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW
in the days of spark.
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[garyk9gs]

I was riding to a DX club meeting on Monday night with a friend who recently 
started playing around with FT8.
He said he's worked 60+ countries in a week or so using 100w.  Not on 160m.  He 
said that many of the QSOs were 10 or more db below the noise and many he could 
not hear at all.
All it would take is a few lines of additional code (the QSO itself is already 
automated) to log and find the next contact and one could go to work in the 
morning and come home to find out what you've worked.  The software even 
highlights the "new ones".
He described making a QSO as much fun as watching paint dry.
Not for me.  This is kind of like the driverless cars that everyone is saying 
will revolutionise transportation.   I just don't get the attraction.   Both 
technologies sound boring.  I'll go read a good book instead.
Yeah, maybe I'm old fashioned but I'm only 55.


73-Gary K9GS 
 Original message From: "Wes Attaway (N5WA)" 
 Date: 10/25/17  8:11 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: 'Steve 
Ireland' , 'Topband reflector'  
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) 
I agree with all the comments re digital modes such as FT8.  I was
discussing this recently with a local ham and I told him that I thought ARRL
could create a new "DXCC While Being Asleep" award.  With FT8 all you have
to do is to click your mouse once in a while.  The rest of the time you
could just be dozing while the computer is making a few QSOs.  You really
don't have to be awake while the QSOs (if you want to call them that) are
being made.

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G'day

As a committed (yeah, that's probably the right word - complete with white
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I've never been so
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England.
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn't have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you 'saw' signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren't, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz - FT-8 central.  On
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I've dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of
FT-8 activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and 

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Dave AA6YQ]

"Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard; every op 
should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the age of 35 will 
kill the hobby."

We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW in 
the days of spark.

73,

 Dave, AA6YQ

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mike Waters]

Gentlemen,

Why choose to let what others are doing upset us, especially when there is
not a thing we can do about it? Let's just enjoy our 160m DX and contests
instead. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Don Kirk]

I hope everyone in the US (except for me) switches to FT-8 on 160 meters
which will give me a much better chance to work the dx-peditions and other
rare ones on 160 meters CW:-)

I downloaded the software to check out what FT-8 was all about, and after
30 minutes I had seen enough and decided it was boring (cool from a
technological standpoint, but otherwise boring and certainly not
challenging).  We need to keep our bands active, and FT-8 is another mode
to help with that objective.

CW is certainly not dead, but we must figure out how to get the youth of
tomorrow interested in CW and I have witnessed a decline in available CW
operators at events such as Field Day, etc.

73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 4:25 AM, Steve Ireland  wrote:

> G’day
>
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
>
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all
> the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of
> Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east
> England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy.
>
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology
> over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).
>
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by
> being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan
> boy!).
>
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.
>
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
> nothing to do with the audible.
>
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
> modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
> digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at
> dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
> amounts of noise.
>
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer
> or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly
> on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
>
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
> quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
> have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
> DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.
>
> Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is
> a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
> can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On
> some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.
>
> There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW
> (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the
> heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope.
>
> Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
> comes down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.
>
> My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be
> no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of
> their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
> actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
> lost.
>
> I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
> still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
> noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
> excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!
>
> So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
> become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
> I’ve always enjoyed it.
>
> Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
> FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
> down and what do you think the future holds?
>
> Vy 73
>
> Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

As a younger old guy in ham radio at 53, licensed since 1978, I am 
enjoying the heck out of FT8.  It is very different than other modes 
such as CW or SSB.


Why the commotion?  It takes up a couple of KC's on the band and nobody 
is forcing you to do it.


It is allowing people how have smaller stations the opportunity to get 
on and use their radios and a computer to make contacts they never would 
have been able to make.  This is great for ham radio!


FT8 is just another form of RTTY in my eyes.  A computer decodes RTTY 
just like other data modes.  Was there this much angst when it came out?


Unfortunately most old farts in ham radio don't really care if it goes 
on or not.  The majority of t he ham radio population is old.  They are 
in it only for themselves and most will not be around in 10 to 20 years.


To survive, ham radio,  is going to need things like FT8 and probably 
much more to continue.  We pride our selves on our emergency 
communications.  How many people were involved in the hurricanes this 
year.  Very very very little.


People should be excited that there are now so many signals on 160!  
Instead we have 20 plus responses the end of 160 is here. Actually it is 
the start of much much more.  It is still hard. You still have to have 
enough of an antenna to get out.   You still have to be able to be heard 
and you have to be able to hear.  The east coast is still going to 
dominate in the DX world even on FT8 from the USA.  The only technology 
that will make up for that advantage is a remote station on the east 
coast, which is a thing!


I have worked one station on 160 FT8  V31MA.  I have not been focusing 
on 160 though.


Working DX on FT8 is interesting and requires different skills similar 
but different to RTTY.


I have worked 405 stations on FT8 since October 14th which was my first 
contact on FT8.


Every station my radio hears is uploaded to hamspots.net.   That is 
pretty cool.  With JTalerts I can send a message instantly to other 
JTAlert users thanking them for the contact or asking them a question.


Psychologist should figure out why people especially older people have 
such a big issue with changes to their lives or their hobbies.  Every 
change is bad and nothing is ever better.


The dreaded computer continues to be blamed yet everyone here is using 
one to email, to log, to send your morse code, to watch your SDR, to 
forecasting the propagation but FT8 a mode that takes up 2 or 3 kc's is 
going to ruin ham radio?


Try it you might actually like it.  The only negative I have is with 
people running huge power when it is not necessary, which plagues us on 
all our bands but probably more so on 160 and the lack of being able to 
have a conversation with the other station. It is easy to get working.


In the end hams have more people to work!  This is a good thing. We can 
sell ham radio to people with limited access to antennas and show them 
they can actually make contacts around the world.


It may not be for everyone, PSK was not for me, but I am making a bunch 
more ham radio contacts everyday instead of watching my DXCC needs list 
and spot collector telling me there is nobody on that I need.


Like packet I don't think FT8 is going away until there is a better form 
of it and that will be the rage.


W0MU




On 10/25/2017 2:25 AM, Steve Ireland wrote:

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact a

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Wes Attaway (N5WA)]

I agree with all the comments re digital modes such as FT8.  I was
discussing this recently with a local ham and I told him that I thought ARRL
could create a new "DXCC While Being Asleep" award.  With FT8 all you have
to do is to click your mouse once in a while.  The rest of the time you
could just be dozing while the computer is making a few QSOs.  You really
don't have to be awake while the QSOs (if you want to call them that) are
being made.

   ---
Wes Attaway (N5WA)
(318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
Computer/Cellphone Forensics
AttawayForensics.com
   ---

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G'day

As a committed (yeah, that's probably the right word - complete with white
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I've never been so
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England.
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in
particular, before those stations who didn't have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you 'saw' signals
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had
nothing to do with the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren't, were not good at
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying
amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz - FT-8 central.  On
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I've dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of
FT-8 activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it
comes down to it,  I just can't use it. My heart isn't in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else's computer and there will be no
sense of either a particular person's way of sending CW or the tone of their
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been
lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as
I've always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with
FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside
down and what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.co

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Victor Goncharsky via Topband]

JT modes were originally designed for VHF (59 MHz and up).
No reason to use them on HF and especially on Top Band.
We will not pay attention to those playing the childish FT8 toys on HF.
3C0L showed us the proper way. 


>Среда, 25 октября 2017, 11:55 UTC от Mirosław Paczocha :
>
>Hi,
>
>FT8, JT65 and similar modes are just computer to computer "QSOs".
>
>I expect DXCC CW and DXCC SSB will still be praised while DXCC DIGI or Mixed 
>will soon have no much value.
>
>73, Mirek
>SP5ENA
>
>-
>Original Message-
>From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of ok1tn 
>Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:26 PM
>To: Bob Kupps < n...@yahoo.com >
>Cc: Topband reflector < topband@contesting.com >; Steve Ireland < 
>vk...@arach.net.au >
>Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
>
>Agree completely from me too.
>over 50years on TOP band only CW
>ok1tn
>-- 
>73 Slavek Zeler
>
>
>
>_
>Topband Reflector Archives -  http://www.contesting.com/_topband


-- 
73, Victor Goncharsky US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests, ex UB5WE), P.E.
UARL Technical and VHF Committies
DXCC Honor Roll #1 (Mixed, Phone), 9BDXCC, 8BWAS
DXCC card checker (160 meters).
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[JC]

"Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future 
holds?"

Hi Steve

On the old days we used to call CQ several times and listening, very few people 
realize what listening really means. It means we need to tune around the band 
to find someone calling us. Take that knob and spin it!

With the computer our habits are different. Nowadays we turn the PC first and 
if we see a spot or a RBN entry we try to call.

The new digital mode is an evolution of doing nothing. Skype would be more fun, 
 digital mode is boring and soon the FT8 user will feel that way too.

The best way to know the future is to work on it. We should be back to call CQ 
for the fun to work someone.

Call CQ 5 times and then turn your computer on, every day, if all of us do it 
once a day, the band will be fun again.

73's
N4IS
JC 




 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Stan Stockton]

Steve,

Thanks for calling me this morning.  Good signals.

At one time I was interested in EME on 2 Meters.  I found out that most of the 
QSOs were taking lace using some digital means where you didn't even hear the 
station you were working.  My desire went to zero at that point in time.  

Hopefully we can enjoy hearing and working people for many years to come.

73... Stan, ZF9CW

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:25 AM, Steve Ireland  wrote:
> 
> G’day
> 
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
> 
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
> sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
> that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, 
> I am one sick puppy.
> 
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
> the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 
> 
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
> able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).
> 
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 
> 
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast 
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had 
> nothing to do with the audible.
> 
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket 
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes 
> of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital 
> modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing 
> with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of 
> noise.  
> 
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure 
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
> DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
> first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
> 
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have 
> quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have 
> QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing 
> has changed, perhaps for ever. 
> 
> Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
> looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
> see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
> nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.
> 
> There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
> example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of 
> FT-8 activity on my band scope. 
> 
> Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it 
> comes down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  
> 
> My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
> sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
> voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is 
> actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.
> 
> I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
> hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
> to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
> voice. Pure radio magic!
> 
> So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
> become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as 
> I’ve always enjoyed it.  
> 
> Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with 
> FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down 
> and what do you think the future holds? 
> 
> Vy 73
> 
> Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[GALE STEWARD via Topband]

I have to agree with Steve's assessment. I guess that having been licensed for 
54 years makes me a "geezer" of sorts and we aren't supposed to like anything 
"new".
I think that the new technology is great to a point. I'm on the internet all 
the time and the radios are all tied to the computers for logging, spotting, 
etc. I enjoy that and would not want to go totally back to the "old days".
When it comes to actually making a QSOs, I really don't know what you get out 
of the process where two computers communicate with each other using signals 
that are not audible. I remember my first JA QSO on 160 (CW) during the morning 
gray line from my QTH in SE PA. Just before my sunrise, I could hear others 
calling a JA station that was still mostly in the noise. A few minutes later, 
his signal started to increase and just at my SR was nearly S9 on my receiver. 
I made the contact easily and as I continues to listen, his signal began to 
fall and was then quickly gone. The total elapse time was maybe 2 - 3 minutes. 
I still remember the thrill of that (and many other) QSOs on 80 & 160.
I'm not knocking the guys using the digital modes. It's obviously a new and 
interesting technology and they are having fun, which is the reason we do this, 
right? I just have ZERO interest in it all and still get my fun actually 
hearing and working another station.
73, Stew K3ND

  From: Steve Ireland 
 To: Topband reflector  
 Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:50 AM
 Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
   
G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can sti

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Bill Stewart]

Bill, don't give up. There is still plenty of magic in ham radio.
I get my jollies using vintage and homebrew gear. Can still smell
the dust on the hot tubes. There is a good bit of activity on the
bands by us BA and HB ops. Also there are those of us who enjoy
building rigs from the 1920's and 30's. Parts are still around and
most circuits can be as simple as ya want. We would be happy to have
you, and others, join the Antique Wireless Assoc. and/or participate
in our on-air events using the old tubes and circuits. For me at
least, I get a lot of satisfaction using my HB 1924 Meissner osc on
160m at about 5 watts input.

I used a window screen with my DX-40 on ten meters back in the early
60's ...just to see if it workedit did load up, can't remember if
I made a contact73 de Bill K4JYS


- Original Message -
From: "Bill Cromwell" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:22:16 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

Heh,

I have found myself thinking more and more in recent years of just 
dropping ham radio. Those psychologists may have oversimplified things a 
little but there is plenty of meat on those bones. The radio hook was 
set for me when my father and I were cruising the bands on one of those 
big old radios that stood on the floor (1950s). A Zenith model radio 
that was also parlor furniture. We had a pair of window screens 
connected as the antenna and we intercepted radio traffic from a 
mountain climbing expedition on the Matterhorn!! We are/were in central 
michigan. Three days later that was on the "news" and I recall the 
feeling of "that's old news". The smell of the hot dust on those old 
vacuum tubes. The feel of the controls in my hand. Hearing those voices 
so vary far away. The glow of the dial lights (the tubes were hidden 
inside the 'furniture').

All of those senses get involved with um... real radio. If we take away 
one or more of them the hobby is diminished. I have fldigi here for 
*looking* at the digi modes. So far fldigi does not produce any sound 
for my ears. I have rarely used it because of that. More recently I have 
simultaneously run a DSP program just so I can hear what is happening.

One of my other hobbies (involves all of the senses) is making music. I 
have acoustic (no electronics) instruments and perform with other 
musicians who use acoustic instruments. It always sounds better than the 
electronic junk music and the interaction with other musicians is the 
same a the human interaction between hams (as opposed to interaction 
between computers). Certainly that 'other' music is valid as music. 
Those other modes on the bands are valid as ham radio. But some of us 
have other preferences and we will always have them. I have noticed that 
some of the 'new' hams are taking up our modes so there will be others 
to work on the air - hopefully.

Recently some of us were playing to an audience at a community center 
when the lights went out for a couple of minutes and a couple of times. 
We never missed a beat :) Sometimes the personal skills developed in ham 
radio can generate similar stories. So lets all maintain our ham 
licenses and continue using our favorites modes.

Now..how do I get that FT8 running?

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 10/25/2017 06:37 AM, Arthur Delibert wrote:
> I’m sure there will be people who say FT8 is just “progress.”  But some 
> psychologists divide people according to whether their preferred mode of 
> experience is auditory, visual or kinesthetic (touch).  I think most of us 
> who are addicted to radio are primarily auditory – on one level, that’s why 
> we’re in this hobby.  So, no surprise that we find radio without the auditory 
> component to be unfulfilling.
>
> Art Delibert, KB3FJO
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
>
> From: Steve Ireland<mailto:vk...@arach.net.au>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:26 AM
> To: Topband reflector<mailto:topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
>
> G’day
>
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
>
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
> sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
> that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, 
> I am one sick puppy.
>
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
> the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
> station

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Mirosław Paczocha]

Hi,

FT8, JT65 and similar modes are just computer to computer "QSOs".

I expect DXCC CW and DXCC SSB will still be praised while DXCC DIGI or Mixed 
will soon have no much value.

73, Mirek
SP5ENA

-
Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of ok1tn 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:26 PM
To: Bob Kupps 
Cc: Topband reflector ; Steve Ireland 

Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

Agree completely from me too.
over 50years on TOP band only CW
ok1tn
-- 
73 Slavek Zeler



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Bill Cromwell]

Heh,

I have found myself thinking more and more in recent years of just 
dropping ham radio. Those psychologists may have oversimplified things a 
little but there is plenty of meat on those bones. The radio hook was 
set for me when my father and I were cruising the bands on one of those 
big old radios that stood on the floor (1950s). A Zenith model radio 
that was also parlor furniture. We had a pair of window screens 
connected as the antenna and we intercepted radio traffic from a 
mountain climbing expedition on the Matterhorn!! We are/were in central 
michigan. Three days later that was on the "news" and I recall the 
feeling of "that's old news". The smell of the hot dust on those old 
vacuum tubes. The feel of the controls in my hand. Hearing those voices 
so vary far away. The glow of the dial lights (the tubes were hidden 
inside the 'furniture').


All of those senses get involved with um... real radio. If we take away 
one or more of them the hobby is diminished. I have fldigi here for 
*looking* at the digi modes. So far fldigi does not produce any sound 
for my ears. I have rarely used it because of that. More recently I have 
simultaneously run a DSP program just so I can hear what is happening.


One of my other hobbies (involves all of the senses) is making music. I 
have acoustic (no electronics) instruments and perform with other 
musicians who use acoustic instruments. It always sounds better than the 
electronic junk music and the interaction with other musicians is the 
same a the human interaction between hams (as opposed to interaction 
between computers). Certainly that 'other' music is valid as music. 
Those other modes on the bands are valid as ham radio. But some of us 
have other preferences and we will always have them. I have noticed that 
some of the 'new' hams are taking up our modes so there will be others 
to work on the air - hopefully.


Recently some of us were playing to an audience at a community center 
when the lights went out for a couple of minutes and a couple of times. 
We never missed a beat :) Sometimes the personal skills developed in ham 
radio can generate similar stories. So lets all maintain our ham 
licenses and continue using our favorites modes.


Now..how do I get that FT8 running?

73,

Bill  KU8H

On 10/25/2017 06:37 AM, Arthur Delibert wrote:

I’m sure there will be people who say FT8 is just “progress.”  But some 
psychologists divide people according to whether their preferred mode of 
experience is auditory, visual or kinesthetic (touch).  I think most of us who 
are addicted to radio are primarily auditory – on one level, that’s why we’re 
in this hobby.  So, no surprise that we find radio without the auditory 
component to be unfulfilling.

Art Delibert, KB3FJO

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Steve Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:26 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their comp

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Arthur Delibert]

I’m sure there will be people who say FT8 is just “progress.”  But some 
psychologists divide people according to whether their preferred mode of 
experience is auditory, visual or kinesthetic (touch).  I think most of us who 
are addicted to radio are primarily auditory – on one level, that’s why we’re 
in this hobby.  So, no surprise that we find radio without the auditory 
component to be unfulfilling.

Art Delibert, KB3FJO

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Steve Ireland
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:26 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever.

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope.

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 
and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and 
what do you think the future holds?

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[daraymond]

Well said. . .I totally agree.  73. . .Dave, W0FLS

-Original Message- 
From: Steve Ireland

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM
To: Topband reflector
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.


For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. 
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.


With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology).


It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).


During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT.


As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast 
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had 
nothing to do with the audible.


The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket 
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the 
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy 
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at 
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying 
amounts of noise.


While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure 
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on 
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.


Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have 
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can 
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m 
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever.


Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I 
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On 
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.


There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of 
FT-8 activity on my band scope.


Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it 
comes down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.


My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is 
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been 
lost.


I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can 
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the 
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real 
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!


So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.


Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with 
FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside 
down and what do you think the future holds?


Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Patrick Parmentier]

Well said,I agree ! I will never forget the adrenaline that flows when KH6AT 
came back on my CQ . I could HEAR him !  (my last zone on TB)  73  Pat  ON7PQ . 

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] För Steve Ireland
Skickat: woensdag 25 oktober 2017 10:25
Till: Topband reflector
Ämne: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 
and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and 
what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[ok1tn]

Agree completely from me too.
over 50years on TOP band only CW
ok1tn
-- 
73 Slavek Zeler


-- Původní e-mail --
Od: Bob Kupps via Topband 
Komu: Steve Ireland , Topband reflector 
Datum: 25. 10. 2017 12:17:42
Předmět: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) 
"Agree completely Steve. I was going to build a 2m EME station until I 
learned that computer to computer Qs were the only thing going on there 
these daysnot for me. 
73 Bob HS0ZIA



From: Steve Ireland 
To: Topband reflector  
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:50 PM
Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. 
Yeah, I am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast 
majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had 
nothing to do with the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket 
(you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the 
modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy 
digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at 
dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying 
amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure 
that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on 
my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have 
quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can 
have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m 
DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I 
can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On 
some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of 
FT-8 activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it 
comes down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is 
actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been 
lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can 
still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the 
noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real 
excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I
’ve always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT
-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down 
and what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Hans Hjelmström]

Hi Steve

I FULLY agree on all you write.  Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is 
more or less lost.

According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any 
personal feeling.
And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio…..
Next is to let your computer make these so called QSO:s during the day when you 
work,
and during night ,when you are at sleep.You only check once per day,,what 
contacts he 
made, and the computer log for you.And send info to LOTW.Not any cards to look 
at
any more. Just check your standings once per month at computer.
At this point all social-connection is gone ,and you can just sit back and 
rest,,,

It was the same this  season on 50 mc. After 5th of July ,there was almost NO
stations on either CW or SSB. People that I know of, having no interest in
the challenge of magic band,  worked ??? countries that they never could dream 
of before.

I feel that ARRL should make a new dxcc for only Digi-modes that gives 
report less as  - 1 db.Like in past ,when they used to need a report of 
minimum 33 or 339. As computer make the ,,,so called qso, and also write
the report ,that should be easy to do.And this modes should NOT be 
counted for the other dxcc-awards. Doing this ,a lot of people ,can work a new 
dxcc ,if they like ,on these digi  modes, and not destroy the old awards.

I sent an e-mail concerning this to ARRL about one month ago, to one of the 
top-guys at
dxcc-award.  His lazy answer was more or less::: Use ,take it or leave it. Its 
new times.
He / they were NOT interested to think it over, not even do they care.
His answer was really not for a hobby. It was just too much for him to think of.

WORSE of all is : that it takes away challenge to increase antennas,station and
your operating skills.  In all other hobbies,,, this is most important, to give 
some
advantage to these that do something extra

VERY SORRY, BUT if 50 mc and also 1.8 mc is going to be the same this and 
coming 2018 season,  I stop my ham-radio and will do something else.
I give it to end of 2018 ,to see if any changements will come.

I think the best to solve this shit,,, is to make a separate dxcc award for 
it,
and not mix with the others.

Sorry for long e-mail, BUT I can tell you,  for sure,,,many many Hams around 
our globe,feels similar as you and me.

Kind regards

Hans  SM6CVX

> 25 okt 2017 kl. 10:25 skrev Steve Ireland :
> 
> G’day
> 
> As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
> jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
> intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
> Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.
> 
> For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
> sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
> that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, 
> I am one sick puppy.
> 
> With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
> the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX 
> stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in 
> particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 
> 
> It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
> able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).
> 
> During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in 
> digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 
> 
> As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals 
> through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable 
> technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast 
> majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had 
> nothing to do with the audible.
> 
> The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket 
> (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes 
> of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital 
> modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing 
> with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of 
> noise.  
> 
> While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
> signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure 
> that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
> DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
> first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.
> 
> Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have 
> quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have 
> QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing 
> has changed, perhaps for ever. 
> 
> Where once ther

Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)

[Bob Kupps via Topband]

Agree completely Steve. I was going to build a 2m EME station until I learned 
that computer to computer Qs were the only thing going on there these 
daysnot for me. 
73 Bob HS0ZIA



  From: Steve Ireland 
 To: Topband reflector  
 Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:50 PM
 Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
   
G’day

As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white 
jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so 
intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the 
Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode.

For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the 
sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran 
that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I 
am one sick puppy.

With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over 
the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations 
I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, 
before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). 

It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being 
able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!).

During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital 
radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. 

As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through 
the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical 
achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of 
active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with 
the audible.

The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you 
can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of 
choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes 
were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with 
signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise.  

While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing 
signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that 
these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or 
DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my 
first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation.

Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly 
created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs 
almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has 
changed, perhaps for ever. 

Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a 
looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can 
see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central.  On some 
nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB.

There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for 
example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 
activity on my band scope. 

Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes 
down to it,  I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it.  

My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no 
sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their 
voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually 
creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost.

I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still 
hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and 
to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his 
voice. Pure radio magic!

So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have 
become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve 
always enjoyed it.  

Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 
and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and 
what do you think the future holds? 

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD


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