Re: Topband: Low band noise
Hi Brian, Thank You, appreciate your information and help. There is one message on the reflector now. Will forward, but you may have found it already. 73, All the best, Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: "Brian Miller" To: Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise Hi Bruce Very happy to answer questions that top band DXers may have about our experience at ZL6QH. Please note that not all wind farm installations are noisy - it depends on the type of turbine technology that is deployed. 73, Brian VK3MI ZL1AZE -Original Message- From: Bruce Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:45 PM To: Brian Miller ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise Hi Brian, Thank you for your input and sorry to find that the windmill farm noise caused ZL6QH to close down. It will become evident that each country will need enforce RF noise limits on windmills, or start rule making if none exist. In the USA complaints to the ARRL should bring guidance in this matter. Some of the low band reflector DXers may wish to ask questions, if that is all right with you. Thanks again, 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: "Brian Miller" To: Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise Hi Bruce et al Radiated noise from a new wind farm eventually forced us to close down and exit the ZL6QH contest station. A detailed report on the noise levels is available at http://www.zl6qh.com/rf-noise-measurements-quartz-hill-2009-v3.pdf . The ZL6QH wind farm used Siemens 2.3 MW variable speed turbines. We believe the noise was generated by the water cooled electronic power converter technology that was used to convert the variable output of each turbine to the fixed voltage and frequency of the national grid. Our observations suggested that an HF contest station would have be located at least several km from the wind farm to reduce the interference to an acceptable level on the low frequency bands. 73 Brian VK3MI ZL1AZE -- _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Hi Bruce Very happy to answer questions that top band DXers may have about our experience at ZL6QH. Please note that not all wind farm installations are noisy - it depends on the type of turbine technology that is deployed. 73, Brian VK3MI ZL1AZE -Original Message- From: Bruce Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:45 PM To: Brian Miller ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise Hi Brian, Thank you for your input and sorry to find that the windmill farm noise caused ZL6QH to close down. It will become evident that each country will need enforce RF noise limits on windmills, or start rule making if none exist. In the USA complaints to the ARRL should bring guidance in this matter. Some of the low band reflector DXers may wish to ask questions, if that is all right with you. Thanks again, 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: "Brian Miller" To: Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise Hi Bruce et al Radiated noise from a new wind farm eventually forced us to close down and exit the ZL6QH contest station. A detailed report on the noise levels is available at http://www.zl6qh.com/rf-noise-measurements-quartz-hill-2009-v3.pdf . The ZL6QH wind farm used Siemens 2.3 MW variable speed turbines. We believe the noise was generated by the water cooled electronic power converter technology that was used to convert the variable output of each turbine to the fixed voltage and frequency of the national grid. Our observations suggested that an HF contest station would have be located at least several km from the wind farm to reduce the interference to an acceptable level on the low frequency bands. 73 Brian VK3MI ZL1AZE -- _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low Band Noise
Hi Brian, Thanks for posting your interesting wind farm noise report. As I type, my nice quiet lowband DXing QTH is being assaulted by a new wind turbine installation at the minimum 600m distance due East from my QTH, with my 550ft NE Beverage being within this distance. More are being installed to the south and west of me, but further away. Sigh The substation for the whole wind farm project is being built about 1 km to the east of me as well. I also have a 550kV main power grid line at 800m due East (boy, can I pick 'em!), but this has not prevented my 160m DXing as I have over 100 countries with 100 watts confirmed, including VK6 since 2007. Usually light mists, fog and snow static cause the only noise problem from this high tension line. See VE3CV on QRZ.com So I plan to measure the noise before and after commissioning of this new wind turbine, scheduled for this April. My current 160m antenna is an inverted V 80m doublet at 45ft (configured as top loaded vertical for 160) that is in line with the new wind turbine. At least that is good news based on your report, though I almost always use temporary Beverages for rx antennas, so maybe this wind turbine will not be such a rx noise issue. Fingers crossed! One small typo was noticed on Chart 1 that shows S1 = -73db instead of -107db as per your calibration of the TS-120. Thanks again and I will keep the topbanders posted with my experience to come! Since the ice storm of Dec 22/23 2013, this is not shaping up to be a good year for my QTH. 73 Jeff, VE3CV Message: 7 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 20:45:52 -0500 From: "Bruce" Hi To: "Brian Miller" , Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise Message-ID: <716A846E474342DEADB9B58AE0C742CD@k1fzPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Hi Brian, Thank you for your input and sorry to find that the windmill farm noise caused ZL6QH to close down. It will become evident that each country will need enforce RF noise limits on windmills, or start rule making if none exist. In the USA complaints to the ARRL should bring guidance in this matter. Some of the low band reflector DXers may wish to ask questions, if that is all right with you. Thanks again, 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: "Brian Miller" To: Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise > Hi Bruce et al > > Radiated noise from a new wind farm eventually forced us to close down and > exit the ZL6QH contest station. A detailed report on the noise levels is > available at > http://www.zl6qh.com/rf-noise-measurements-quartz-hill-2009-v3.pdf . > > The ZL6QH wind farm used Siemens 2.3 MW variable speed turbines. We > believe the noise was generated by the water cooled electronic power > converter technology that was used to convert the variable output of each > turbine to the fixed voltage and frequency of the national grid. > > Our observations suggested that an HF contest station would have be > located at least several km from the wind farm to reduce the interference > to an acceptable level on the low frequency bands. > > 73 > > Brian VK3MI ZL1AZE > -- _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Hi Brian, Thank you for your input and sorry to find that the windmill farm noise caused ZL6QH to close down. It will become evident that each country will need enforce RF noise limits on windmills, or start rule making if none exist. In the USA complaints to the ARRL should bring guidance in this matter. Some of the low band reflector DXers may wish to ask questions, if that is all right with you. Thanks again, 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: "Brian Miller" To: Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise Hi Bruce et al Radiated noise from a new wind farm eventually forced us to close down and exit the ZL6QH contest station. A detailed report on the noise levels is available at http://www.zl6qh.com/rf-noise-measurements-quartz-hill-2009-v3.pdf . The ZL6QH wind farm used Siemens 2.3 MW variable speed turbines. We believe the noise was generated by the water cooled electronic power converter technology that was used to convert the variable output of each turbine to the fixed voltage and frequency of the national grid. Our observations suggested that an HF contest station would have be located at least several km from the wind farm to reduce the interference to an acceptable level on the low frequency bands. 73 Brian VK3MI ZL1AZE -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:09:51 -0500 From: "Bruce" To: Subject: Topband: Low band noise Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you for those who emailed information. They basically thought the larger windmill arrays did not generate much noise. One test, checking all bands, was from a mobile K3 with a 9 foot whip antenna. Unless the whip was loaded to 1.8 Mhz it may not pick up much noise at one mile. The most probable windmill installation noise source is the inverter. Smaller home/farm 1 phase type may give off more wideband noise. Some are using transformer-less inverters. Noise is ever increasing in many areas. There is a need to monitor noise sources, and installing more directive receiving antennas. http://www.solacity.com/connections.htm Watch the inverter video for more info. Highly informative. http://www.power-one.com/renewable-energy/products/solar/string-inverters/aurora-uno-single-phase/pvi-30363842-north-america/series _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Hi Bruce et al Radiated noise from a new wind farm eventually forced us to close down and exit the ZL6QH contest station. A detailed report on the noise levels is available at http://www.zl6qh.com/rf-noise-measurements-quartz-hill-2009-v3.pdf . The ZL6QH wind farm used Siemens 2.3 MW variable speed turbines. We believe the noise was generated by the water cooled electronic power converter technology that was used to convert the variable output of each turbine to the fixed voltage and frequency of the national grid. Our observations suggested that an HF contest station would have be located at least several km from the wind farm to reduce the interference to an acceptable level on the low frequency bands. 73 Brian VK3MI ZL1AZE -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:09:51 -0500 From: "Bruce" To: Subject: Topband: Low band noise Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you for those who emailed information. They basically thought the larger windmill arrays did not generate much noise. One test, checking all bands, was from a mobile K3 with a 9 foot whip antenna. Unless the whip was loaded to 1.8 Mhz it may not pick up much noise at one mile. The most probable windmill installation noise source is the inverter. Smaller home/farm 1 phase type may give off more wideband noise. Some are using transformer-less inverters. Noise is ever increasing in many areas. There is a need to monitor noise sources, and installing more directive receiving antennas. http://www.solacity.com/connections.htm Watch the inverter video for more info. Highly informative. http://www.power-one.com/renewable-energy/products/solar/string-inverters/aurora-uno-single-phase/pvi-30363842-north-america/series _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
I just sent this to the fellow in Waco. I'd recommend getting the PC ap called Zelscope which is a software based scope. It was ten bucks a few year ago. (there are also several free iphone aps which do this too - audio spectrum analyzers) Hook receiver to sound Card and you can see the waveform, determine base frequency. You can then snapshot the screen and show the waveform which will have certain group of peaks. Arrl would characterize as "3 peak, 4 peak, 5 peak" but you would also see if there are multiple sources of the noise or a single one. If this is a single source a MFJ1025 nuller will work nicely to eliminate it with the proper sense antenna and some twidling of the controls to null out the crud. After years of working with ARRL and the power co here we identified 4 sources of gap noise and they they fixed all but one (because an idiot neighbor blocked access to the right of way and they haven't got around to dealing with them yet since the problem isn't affecting safety or other power transmission issues.). But now with the sole source of crud I can null it out all the time on most bands including 160 but as you tune across the band you have to re null since the line changes the crud noise phase along its length. There are some frequencies where nulling can't be had (altho by reorienting the sense Antenna or setting up a second one it can. I have three sense antennas out there for this purpose. Sent from my iPad On Feb 11, 2014, at 15:58, "Bruce" wrote: > Getting noise from my NW direction. Does not seem to be local. Started > wondering what, at distance, could be causing it. At times it seems to have > a rhythm like a motor. > > There are a lot of power generating wind mills showing up. Checking through > Google, they generate DC and convert to 3 phase AC it with an inverter. The > frequency and phase of the inverter is controlled with a sample from the > power grid. > > Could their inverters have enough sine wave distortion to have harmonic > energy? > > So my question is: Does anyone have first hand knowledge of interference on > the low bands from power generator wind mills? > > Bruce-K1FZ > www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html > www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Bruce, I live in 'wind farm central' (Devon, southwest UK) and have direct experience of wind generator EMI. The small generators (up to 50kW) almost universally use an induction principle and are RF silent. But the type that sit on 160-300ft towers and generate in the 1-5MW range are effectively SMPS on a stick. The generator+inverter that converts the mechanical rotation to a steady state voltage is just like a switch-mode power supply and is most often located at the hub - perfect for radiating anything from the electronics! That said the EMI level is relatively low, but detectable as a slight noise floor lift with a cyclic component out to 2-3 miles from a big wind farm array (K3 + 9ft whip antenna on SUV, 1.8-30MHz sweep at 1-5 mile radius from the center of the wind array). Unlike domestic SMPS they don't seem to generate major trash, so maybe the European EMI standard is set at a good level and actually achieved (amazing!). But a top band enthusiast won't want a wind farm closer than a couple of miles if you can avoid it. Just my 2c/2pence 73 David G3WGN M6O WJ6O _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Utility company telemetry and control over the wires maybe? Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: "Jim in Waco WB5OXQ" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:02 PM Subject: Topband: Low band noise I live in Waco Texas and there are no known windmils or inverters nearby that I know of. I have a lowband noise that is pretty broadband starting around 1mhz on the am broadcast band and running almost non stop until around 2.5mhz or so. It is a buzzing noise on am and a hetrodyne on ssb or cw. Once in a while I hear what sounds like ascii for a couple of seconds and returning to a solid carrier modulated with a rough ac note around 200hz. I took my E1 receiver on battery power around the house and could not pinpoint the problem so I turned the main breaker off killing the whole whuse but the buzzing was still there. So I took the portable receiver in my truck and drove around the neighborhood and the noise is still there everywhere I go. Bear in mind I cannot hear much on 160 or the am band because the signal strength is at least S9 or more. The noise did not go away driving around the block so I drove further to the edge of town to a rural area and the noise is sti ll there. I did this a couple of nights ago and have not tried this in the daytime. The weather has turned icy and cold so I will not try anymore until this next weekend when the temp goes bsack to the 70s. I keep trying to find a good topband antenna but with this noise I will never hear much. The noise is down a lot by 80 meters and not heard any further up the band. Anyone else hear this? WB5OXQ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Hi Jim, Noise may be riding on the power lines. Try to drive a good distance away from them for a test. A leaking transformer with a bad pole ground can do it. Power companies will usually be cooperative if given details. They may have noise location equipment (Never touch a broken pole ground) 73 Bruce-K1FZ - Original Message - From: "Jim in Waco WB5OXQ" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:02 PM Subject: Topband: Low band noise I live in Waco Texas and there are no known windmils or inverters nearby that I know of. I have a lowband noise that is pretty broadband starting around 1mhz on the am broadcast band and running almost non stop until around 2.5mhz or so. It is a buzzing noise on am and a hetrodyne on ssb or cw. Once in a while I hear what sounds like ascii for a couple of seconds and returning to a solid carrier modulated with a rough ac note around 200hz. I took my E1 receiver on battery power around the house and could not pinpoint the problem so I turned the main breaker off killing the whole whuse but the buzzing was still there. So I took the portable receiver in my truck and drove around the neighborhood and the noise is still there everywhere I go. Bear in mind I cannot hear much on 160 or the am band because the signal strength is at least S9 or more. The noise did not go away driving around the block so I drove further to the edge of town to a rural area and the noise is sti ll there. I did this a couple of nights ago and have not tried this in the daytime. The weather has turned icy and cold so I will not try anymore until this next weekend when the temp goes bsack to the 70s. I keep trying to find a good topband antenna but with this noise I will never hear much. The noise is down a lot by 80 meters and not heard any further up the band. Anyone else hear this? WB5OXQ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Bruce, I can't answer your wind turbine noise question on TB but while we are on the subject and a bit off topicin the 70's a 250KW wind turbine with metal blades was installed on the island of Culebra midway between Puerto Rico and St. Thomas. As the blades were rotating they would shock modulate the TV signal reception of WAPA-TV and WKAQ on channels 2 and 4 causing what appeared to be hum bars rolling across the screen. I ironically on a calm day the interference would disappear. It was also determined that aircraft radar from the naval station Roosevelt Roads using the El Yunque Mtn installation and USN installation on Crown Mountain in St. often complained of refracted blips caused by the leading edge of the blades...at least that is what I was told by hams that worked their. I think today and for that reason non metallic blades made from composite resins are required for the larger systems. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 2/11/2014 6:33 PM, Mike Waters wrote: Does it sound like an internal combustion engine idling, with little change in sound or frequency over time? I hear that from time to time and have no explanation for it. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Bruce wrote: At times it seems to have a rhythm like a motor. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Does it sound like an internal combustion engine idling, with little change in sound or frequency over time? I hear that from time to time and have no explanation for it. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Bruce wrote: > At times it seems to have a rhythm like a motor. > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Well, Bruce, if they are using inverters forf the DC-AC conversion, I would expect I to be pretty nasty - some sort of "modified square wave" or "modified sine-wave" approximation. Like a HUGE switching power supply! And if it's tied to the grid or to transmission or distribution lines, it will be connected to large radiators that can radiate considerable harmonic energy over considerable distances. A cleaner way to do DC-AC inversion is with rotating machines (DC motors driving AC generators) but much more difficult to synchronize with the power grid. I doubt that those folks are paying a lot of attention to Power Quality! Regards, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 3:58 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Low band noise Getting noise from my NW direction. Does not seem to be local. Started wondering what, at distance, could be causing it. At times it seems to have a rhythm like a motor. There are a lot of power generating wind mills showing up. Checking through Google, they generate DC and convert to 3 phase AC it with an inverter. The frequency and phase of the inverter is controlled with a sample from the power grid. Could their inverters have enough sine wave distortion to have harmonic energy? So my question is: Does anyone have first hand knowledge of interference on the low bands from power generator wind mills? Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Bruce I work with AC inverters for industrial motor control and their presence obsoleted one of my competitor's overhead crane radio control product practically overnight. A simple hand held AM "transistor" radio was placed within 50' of one of these motor Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) controls and you could hear the varying frequencies being generated by the IGBT transistors. The competitor remote controls were operating in the 200-400 KHz band. Pray for dead calm winds at SR and SS. Carl AG6X -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Cromwell Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:39 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Low band noise Hi Bruce, I assume your noise is on top band (just a wild guess). I will lay on plans this weekend to drive a ways south with the R-599 on 160 meters AND an AM broadcast band receiver that allows some directive sniffing to see if the windmill farm down that way is um... 'polluting'. I haven't looked that far ahead on the weather forecasts. If it's icy or there is a blizzard this old goat ain't going there. In the process I suppose I'll find out if my car is 'clean'. I've been lucky so far. 73, Bill KU8H On 02/11/2014 03:58 PM, Bruce wrote: > Getting noise from my NW direction. Does not seem to be local. Started > wondering what, at distance, could be causing it. At times it seems to have > a rhythm like a motor. > > There are a lot of power generating wind mills showing up. Checking through > Google, they generate DC and convert to 3 phase AC it with an inverter. The > frequency and phase of the inverter is controlled with a sample from the > power grid. > > Could their inverters have enough sine wave distortion to have harmonic > energy? > > So my question is: Does anyone have first hand knowledge of interference on > the low bands from power generator wind mills? > > Bruce-K1FZ > www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html > www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Bruce, I can't answer your wind turbine noise question on TB but while we are on the subject and a bit off topicin the 70's a 250KW wind turbine with metal blades was installed on the island of Culebra midway between Puerto Rico and St. Thomas. As the blades were rotating they would shock modulate the TV signal reception of WAPA-TV and WKAQ on channels 2 and 4 causing what appeared to be hum bars rolling across the screen. I ironically on a calm day the interference would disappear. It was also determined that aircraft radar from the naval station Roosevelt Roads using the El Yunque Mtn installation and USN installation on Crown Mountain in St. often complained of refracted blips caused by the leading edge of the blades...at least that is what I was told by hams that worked their. I think today and for that reason non metallic blades made from composite resins are required for the larger systems. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 2/11/2014 4:58 PM, Bruce wrote: Getting noise from my NW direction. Does not seem to be local. Started wondering what, at distance, could be causing it. At times it seems to have a rhythm like a motor. There are a lot of power generating wind mills showing up. Checking through Google, they generate DC and convert to 3 phase AC it with an inverter. The frequency and phase of the inverter is controlled with a sample from the power grid. Could their inverters have enough sine wave distortion to have harmonic energy? So my question is: Does anyone have first hand knowledge of interference on the low bands from power generator wind mills? Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Low band noise
Hi Bruce, I assume your noise is on top band (just a wild guess). I will lay on plans this weekend to drive a ways south with the R-599 on 160 meters AND an AM broadcast band receiver that allows some directive sniffing to see if the windmill farm down that way is um... 'polluting'. I haven't looked that far ahead on the weather forecasts. If it's icy or there is a blizzard this old goat ain't going there. In the process I suppose I'll find out if my car is 'clean'. I've been lucky so far. 73, Bill KU8H On 02/11/2014 03:58 PM, Bruce wrote: Getting noise from my NW direction. Does not seem to be local. Started wondering what, at distance, could be causing it. At times it seems to have a rhythm like a motor. There are a lot of power generating wind mills showing up. Checking through Google, they generate DC and convert to 3 phase AC it with an inverter. The frequency and phase of the inverter is controlled with a sample from the power grid. Could their inverters have enough sine wave distortion to have harmonic energy? So my question is: Does anyone have first hand knowledge of interference on the low bands from power generator wind mills? Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/beveragenotes.html www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
