Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials
Hi Steve and all, First of all, many thanks for your words. I will try to describe the soil but sorry if I don´t use the right English words for it. According to my friend LU8DPM Mario, with whom I have been doing all this effort, the soil in the area is - Mostly organic - PH neutral (acid level) - water table between 2 to 3 mts I can add it is NOT rocky hilltop or sand, it is in a plain rural area, 200 Km from the sea. Not artificial irrigated, only by rain. At the moment measurement were done, 2 months had passed without rain. When we reached 54 radials level, it rains very little (1 or 2 mm) before we took the measurement. That was the only rain in the process. I hope this help to have an idea. All the best to all... Eddie.- LU2DKT From: Steve London To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials Great empirical info, Eddie. Can you say something qualitative about your ground conditions ? For example, "irrigated soil", "rocky hilltop", "sand", etc. You are doing something right - Huge signal on topband, and you also hear very well. 73, Steve, N2IC On 09/20/2013 06:31 AM, Eduardo Araujo wrote: > Hi friends, > I finished sending the measurements data to all that >requested it. In case somebody didn´t receive it yet, please let me know. > > Even though I did not mention it before, I also have Field Strength > measurement synchronized in time with the AIM measurements. > > As surely this was not a professional procedure, I will explain how I did it > and you may judge if it is useful for you or not. > > - I installed 2 verticals antennas 3 mts long, at about 300-350 meters from > the tower base in two opposite directions. So measurement was done at ground > level. > - I did not tuned up the elements in any way, they were connected to the FS > instrument directly and as ground connection I used a 50 cm aluminum pipe > buried in the ground > > - As a FS meter I used a DIGI - FIELD from IC- Engineering > > - First 2 radials were installed more or less in the direction of the RX > verticals > - From there, they were installed consecutive in counter-clock wise. (look > from above) > - I used 20W at 1840 during daylight, and matched the antenna input for every > change in radial number. I used an MFJ-962B for this purpose. > - After all readings were done, I calibrate the readings against an HP-8640B > signal to visualize which was the change in db > > Botton line - the measured change at ground level between 2 and 114 radials > was between 5.2 in one direction and 5.8 db to the other. > > I understand this is not a professional procedure nor professional equipment > and it was done having fun enjoying the hobby. > > I will like to hear from you your thought about if this kind of measurement > done at ground level and at that distance from the antenna base has a > correlation to actual radiated Field at the maximum vertical azimuth of the > vertical whichever it is. > And, also, How the procedure or elements I used could be improved still > within amateur measurement accuracy and not professional level. > > > '73 to all. Eddie, LU2DKT > > > > > > > > From: Eduardo Araujo > > To: Topband > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:28 AM > Subject: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials > > > > Hi everyone, I recently complete the installation of +100 1/4 radials for the > 1/4 vertical. > > I measured input vertical parameters using AIM4170 from 1600 to 2000Kc > > I assumed it is not something new for many of you, but I wonder if the > information I collected may be of interest for some of the group members. > > I have available for sharing BMP or JPG images of each scan which were run at > 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 60 and +110 radials. Also, I have the .scn files for each > scan which could be viewed using AIM4170 SW even though you don´t have the > unit. > > > The good thing looking at the files using the sw is that you can move the > cursor and have all the values at all fcies from 1600-2000 Kc > > In case someone is interested, let me know and I will see the way to share it. > > ´73 to everyone Eddie, LU2DKT > > PS: By the way, what a nice toy the AIM !!!, Even though I bought it more > than one year ago, this is the first time I use it > _ > Topband Reflector > _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials
lator/ Maybe a decimal point was left out. Jim, I thought something was misleading you somewhere. Be careful with online calculators. The one in the link uses pi out to 39 places (which might give the impression of accuracy), but omits many far more critical, important, parameters. It is a very rough guess that might be a mile off, even though the publisher implies accuracy. They would be better off to just use "3.1" for Pi, and add in some more important things. One way to evaluate an inductor calculator for design omissions is to see if it asks for: 1.) Insulation thickness and type 2.) Turns spacing 3.) Form material 4.) Conductor size 5.) Form length 6.) Form diameter That one grossly fails. It doesn't ask for several important things. To check the calculator for function, start taking a large coil up higher in frequency. If you get weird results like progressively increasing Q that goes over 1000 for normal good conductors, extreme inductance values (like values near whole Henries at HF and higher), the calculator is likely just junk. That one completely fails. It obviously does not consider turn-to-turn capacitance, skin effect, materials, or internal resonances, because I can "make" door bell wire inductors with Q's in the thousands and almost a Henry of inductance on 50 MHz!! Since it doesn't ask for enough things and obviously ignores many important traits of inductors, it is unreliable. It might work in some cases by pure luck, but who knows when it could be trusted!! Things like that can send you down the wrong path, and cause you to start giving out wrong numbers. 73 Tom -- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 07:25:18 +0100 From: "Tom Boucher" To: "160 reflector" Subject: Topband: 'Hairpin' matching Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The excellent web site for calculating matching network values should have been: http://home.sandiego.edu/~ekim/e194rfs01/jwmatcher/matcher2.html not the one I posted yesterday. 73, Tom G3OLB -- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 01:48:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Maguire To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: AutoEZ v2 with Optimizer Message-ID: <1379666897.77410.yahoomailba...@web125405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii AutoEZ is an Excel application that lets you automate the use of EZNEC. Version 2 is now available. Major changes are 1) an optimizer, 2) new "Create" dialog windows to easily build common antenna configurations, and 3) faster calculation speeds. The AutoEZ home page with revised documentation is here: http://ac6la.com/autoez.html For a complete list of all changes since v1 see: http://ac6la.com/aenewforv2.html A free demo version of AutoEZ is available for download. The demo includes the optimizer feature. Dan, AC6LA -- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 08:15:51 -0400 From: "Charlie Cunningham" To: "'Tom Boucher'" , "'160 reflector'" Subject: Re: Topband: 'Hairpin' matching Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Very nice to have all of those collected into one place! Thanks for sharing, Tom! Have a god day! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom Boucher Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 2:25 AM To: 160 reflector Subject: Topband: 'Hairpin' matching The excellent web site for calculating matching network values should have been: http://home.sandiego.edu/~ekim/e194rfs01/jwmatcher/matcher2.html not the one I posted yesterday. 73, Tom G3OLB _ Topband Reflector -- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 05:31:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Eduardo Araujo To: Topband Subject: Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials Message-ID: <1379680307.68664.yahoomail...@web160703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi friends, ??? I finished sending the measurements data to all that requested it. In case somebody didn?t receive it yet, please let me know. Even though I did not mention it before, I also have Field Strength measurement synchronized in time with the AIM measurements. As surely this was not a professional procedure, I will explain how I did it and you may judge if it is useful for you or not. - I installed 2 verticals antennas 3 mts long, at about 300-350 meters from the tower base in two opposite directions. So measurement was done at ground level. - I did not tuned up the elements in any way, they were connected to the FS instrument directly and as ground connection I used a 50 cm aluminum pipe buried in the ground - As a FS meter I used a DIGI - FIELD from I
Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials
Great empirical info, Eddie. Can you say something qualitative about your ground conditions ? For example, "irrigated soil", "rocky hilltop", "sand", etc. You are doing something right - Huge signal on topband, and you also hear very well. 73, Steve, N2IC On 09/20/2013 06:31 AM, Eduardo Araujo wrote: Hi friends, I finished sending the measurements data to all that requested it. In case somebody didn´t receive it yet, please let me know. Even though I did not mention it before, I also have Field Strength measurement synchronized in time with the AIM measurements. As surely this was not a professional procedure, I will explain how I did it and you may judge if it is useful for you or not. - I installed 2 verticals antennas 3 mts long, at about 300-350 meters from the tower base in two opposite directions. So measurement was done at ground level. - I did not tuned up the elements in any way, they were connected to the FS instrument directly and as ground connection I used a 50 cm aluminum pipe buried in the ground - As a FS meter I used a DIGI - FIELD from IC- Engineering - First 2 radials were installed more or less in the direction of the RX verticals - From there, they were installed consecutive in counter-clock wise. (look from above) - I used 20W at 1840 during daylight, and matched the antenna input for every change in radial number. I used an MFJ-962B for this purpose. - After all readings were done, I calibrate the readings against an HP-8640B signal to visualize which was the change in db Botton line - the measured change at ground level between 2 and 114 radials was between 5.2 in one direction and 5.8 db to the other. I understand this is not a professional procedure nor professional equipment and it was done having fun enjoying the hobby. I will like to hear from you your thought about if this kind of measurement done at ground level and at that distance from the antenna base has a correlation to actual radiated Field at the maximum vertical azimuth of the vertical whichever it is. And, also, How the procedure or elements I used could be improved still within amateur measurement accuracy and not professional level. '73 to all. Eddie, LU2DKT From: Eduardo Araujo To: Topband Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:28 AM Subject: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials Hi everyone, I recently complete the installation of +100 1/4 radials for the 1/4 vertical. I measured input vertical parameters using AIM4170 from 1600 to 2000Kc I assumed it is not something new for many of you, but I wonder if the information I collected may be of interest for some of the group members. I have available for sharing BMP or JPG images of each scan which were run at 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 60 and +110 radials. Also, I have the .scn files for each scan which could be viewed using AIM4170 SW even though you don´t have the unit. The good thing looking at the files using the sw is that you can move the cursor and have all the values at all fcies from 1600-2000 Kc In case someone is interested, let me know and I will see the way to share it. ´73 to everyone Eddie, LU2DKT PS: By the way, what a nice toy the AIM !!!, Even though I bought it more than one year ago, this is the first time I use it _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials
Hi, Eddie Nicely done! Looks reasonably professional to me! At the very least, you've made a good effort to quantify your results in a meaningful and repeatable way, with decent tools. No need to tune your sense antennas, as long as there is enough signal level and dynamic range for your FS measurements. Congrats on having mad some meaningful quantitative measurements! Thanks for sharing! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Eduardo Araujo Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 8:32 AM To: Topband Subject: Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials Hi friends, I finished sending the measurements data to all that requested it. In case somebody didn´t receive it yet, please let me know. Even though I did not mention it before, I also have Field Strength measurement synchronized in time with the AIM measurements. As surely this was not a professional procedure, I will explain how I did it and you may judge if it is useful for you or not. - I installed 2 verticals antennas 3 mts long, at about 300-350 meters from the tower base in two opposite directions. So measurement was done at ground level. - I did not tuned up the elements in any way, they were connected to the FS instrument directly and as ground connection I used a 50 cm aluminum pipe buried in the ground - As a FS meter I used a DIGI - FIELD from IC- Engineering - First 2 radials were installed more or less in the direction of the RX verticals - From there, they were installed consecutive in counter-clock wise. (look from above) - I used 20W at 1840 during daylight, and matched the antenna input for every change in radial number. I used an MFJ-962B for this purpose. - After all readings were done, I calibrate the readings against an HP-8640B signal to visualize which was the change in db Botton line - the measured change at ground level between 2 and 114 radials was between 5.2 in one direction and 5.8 db to the other. I understand this is not a professional procedure nor professional equipment and it was done having fun enjoying the hobby. I will like to hear from you your thought about if this kind of measurement done at ground level and at that distance from the antenna base has a correlation to actual radiated Field at the maximum vertical azimuth of the vertical whichever it is. And, also, How the procedure or elements I used could be improved still within amateur measurement accuracy and not professional level. '73 to all. Eddie, LU2DKT From: Eduardo Araujo To: Topband Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:28 AM Subject: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials Hi everyone, I recently complete the installation of +100 1/4 radials for the 1/4 vertical. I measured input vertical parameters using AIM4170 from 1600 to 2000Kc I assumed it is not something new for many of you, but I wonder if the information I collected may be of interest for some of the group members. I have available for sharing BMP or JPG images of each scan which were run at 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 60 and +110 radials. Also, I have the .scn files for each scan which could be viewed using AIM4170 SW even though you don´t have the unit. The good thing looking at the files using the sw is that you can move the cursor and have all the values at all fcies from 1600-2000 Kc In case someone is interested, let me know and I will see the way to share it. ´73 to everyone Eddie, LU2DKT PS: By the way, what a nice toy the AIM !!!, Even though I bought it more than one year ago, this is the first time I use it _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials
Hi friends, I finished sending the measurements data to all that requested it. In case somebody didn´t receive it yet, please let me know. Even though I did not mention it before, I also have Field Strength measurement synchronized in time with the AIM measurements. As surely this was not a professional procedure, I will explain how I did it and you may judge if it is useful for you or not. - I installed 2 verticals antennas 3 mts long, at about 300-350 meters from the tower base in two opposite directions. So measurement was done at ground level. - I did not tuned up the elements in any way, they were connected to the FS instrument directly and as ground connection I used a 50 cm aluminum pipe buried in the ground - As a FS meter I used a DIGI - FIELD from IC- Engineering - First 2 radials were installed more or less in the direction of the RX verticals - From there, they were installed consecutive in counter-clock wise. (look from above) - I used 20W at 1840 during daylight, and matched the antenna input for every change in radial number. I used an MFJ-962B for this purpose. - After all readings were done, I calibrate the readings against an HP-8640B signal to visualize which was the change in db Botton line - the measured change at ground level between 2 and 114 radials was between 5.2 in one direction and 5.8 db to the other. I understand this is not a professional procedure nor professional equipment and it was done having fun enjoying the hobby. I will like to hear from you your thought about if this kind of measurement done at ground level and at that distance from the antenna base has a correlation to actual radiated Field at the maximum vertical azimuth of the vertical whichever it is. And, also, How the procedure or elements I used could be improved still within amateur measurement accuracy and not professional level. '73 to all. Eddie, LU2DKT From: Eduardo Araujo To: Topband Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 9:28 AM Subject: Measuring Vertical input parameters while installing radials Hi everyone, I recently complete the installation of +100 1/4 radials for the 1/4 vertical. I measured input vertical parameters using AIM4170 from 1600 to 2000Kc I assumed it is not something new for many of you, but I wonder if the information I collected may be of interest for some of the group members. I have available for sharing BMP or JPG images of each scan which were run at 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 60 and +110 radials. Also, I have the .scn files for each scan which could be viewed using AIM4170 SW even though you don´t have the unit. The good thing looking at the files using the sw is that you can move the cursor and have all the values at all fcies from 1600-2000 Kc In case someone is interested, let me know and I will see the way to share it. ´73 to everyone Eddie, LU2DKT PS: By the way, what a nice toy the AIM !!!, Even though I bought it more than one year ago, this is the first time I use it _ Topband Reflector
