Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA(k...@juno.com)
Hi Vic, You have a very valid point. I was more thinking of the situation where the station calling cannot hear well. (as in my own case, where ZS is still wanted by a few on Topband) Greetings, Raoul, ZS1REC From: Victor Goncharsky To: Lennart M Cc: 'Raoul Coetzee' ; 'Greg Chartrand' ; topband@contesting.com Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 9:20 AM Subject: Re[2]: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA(k...@juno.com) This is only partially true. If a DXpedition is carefully planned, like, say, VP6DX and I'm sure upcoming Clipperton will be, it will be heard by thousands and one needs everything he/she has +1 dB to break through the pile-up of hundreds Europeans calling. 4SQ-ers/10K go first, then the real battle starts and that's the time when every TX dB counts. Anyway, we all are prisoners of the skip, which was awful lately. 73 Vic US5WE/K1WE KN29AU Пятница, 18 января 2013, 21:36 +01:00 от "Lennart M" : >" >Ämne: Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from >CA(k...@juno.com) > >I agree with most, but be careful not to be louder on TX than you can RX! >Easy to achieve from a small lot with loads of qrn and qrm, ask me. >Allso there is a point where your ouput power "flat top", and dont show any >reward. I think Top W8JI found the same years ago. >Still, you you can have lots of fun. >73 >Raoul ZS1REC, DXCC from 40m x 20m, lots of dedication,wasted qrn nights and >red eyes." > >Greetings Raoul and all. I agree with you Raoul! >Going back many years in my Telecom work we used the term "balanced link >budget" meaning just what you are saying. It is a waste of power, frequency >use and time to use more power than needed (and that goes for each >direction). >No point in running several kW if you cannot copy the station you are >calling. > >73 and I do hope 160 is catching up, this morning in Eu was a disaster. >Len >SM7BIC > > > > >_ >Topband Reflector > _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA(k...@juno.com)
This is only partially true. If a DXpedition is carefully planned, like, say, VP6DX and I'm sure upcoming Clipperton will be, it will be heard by thousands and one needs everything he/she has +1 dB to break through the pile-up of hundreds Europeans calling. 4SQ-ers/10K go first, then the real battle starts and that's the time when every TX dB counts. Anyway, we all are prisoners of the skip, which was awful lately. 73 Vic US5WE/K1WE KN29AU Пятница, 18 января 2013, 21:36 +01:00 от "Lennart M" : > >" >Ämne: Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from >CA(k...@juno.com) > >I agree with most, but be careful not to be louder on TX than you can RX! >Easy to achieve from a small lot with loads of qrn and qrm, ask me. >Allso there is a point where your ouput power "flat top", and dont show any >reward. I think Top W8JI found the same years ago. >Still, you you can have lots of fun. >73 >Raoul ZS1REC, DXCC from 40m x 20m, lots of dedication,wasted qrn nights and >red eyes." > >Greetings Raoul and all. I agree with you Raoul! >Going back many years in my Telecom work we used the term "balanced link >budget" meaning just what you are saying. It is a waste of power, frequency >use and time to use more power than needed (and that goes for each >direction). >No point in running several kW if you cannot copy the station you are >calling. > >73 and I do hope 160 is catching up, this morning in Eu was a disaster. >Len >SM7BIC > > > > >_ >Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA(k...@juno.com)
" Ämne: Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA(k...@juno.com) I agree with most, but be careful not to be louder on TX than you can RX! Easy to achieve from a small lot with loads of qrn and qrm, ask me. Allso there is a point where your ouput power "flat top", and dont show any reward. I think Top W8JI found the same years ago. Still, you you can have lots of fun. 73 Raoul ZS1REC, DXCC from 40m x 20m, lots of dedication,wasted qrn nights and red eyes." Greetings Raoul and all. I agree with you Raoul! Going back many years in my Telecom work we used the term "balanced link budget" meaning just what you are saying. It is a waste of power, frequency use and time to use more power than needed (and that goes for each direction). No point in running several kW if you cannot copy the station you are calling. 73 and I do hope 160 is catching up, this morning in Eu was a disaster. Len SM7BIC _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA (k...@juno.com)
I agree with most, but be careful not to be louder on TX than you can RX! Easy to achieve from a small lot with loads of qrn and qrm, ask me. Allso there is a point where your ouput power "flat top", and dont show any reward. I think Top W8JI found the same years ago. Still, you you can have lots of fun. 73 Raoul ZS1REC, DXCC from 40m x 20m, lots of dedication,wasted qrn nights and red eyes From: Greg Chartrand To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 2:10 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA (k...@juno.com) Jeff, Most every one of us has gone through your experience in the beginning so your not alone. There are a few items that are necessary to get where you want to go: 1. there is no substitute for patience. I have gone years here where I have not heard a EU station here. When the sunspots are high like now, the number of EU openings to the west coast are few and far between. That means for those without a stellar station, you may only have 3-4 opportunities per year to hear/work EU. I missed my chance about 1 1/2 weeks ago because I went to be early. West coast EU opening opportunities peak just after your sunset and just before/during EU's sunrise. In any case, you have to be there to work them. That means your on alert every day watching CC user, checking the band, waiting for your infrequent openings. 2) Transmitting. 160 is like moon bounce, EVERY DB COUNTS. Your running 800 watts so consider yourself already 3 db from where you should be. You described your antenna. It seems reasonable but you don't have a good ground system. Consider yourself another 2-3 DB down. There is a wealth of information about radials in the archives of this digest, read it. In any case, there is no substitute for 2000' + of wire on our under the ground. Your lucky because you can eliminate the 5DB loss you currently have with a minimal effort. 3. Receiving. Your transmit antenna is the worst RX antenna you can have. Its not only bad but it can ruin outer RX antennas near, and with your 1/2 acre, it will. A simple short BOG or two will make a world of difference. Remember think moon bounce, without a short BOG your probably 3-10 DB down signal to noise than you should be. A NE BOG 200' long operating properly will get you some of that loss back and if you isolate your TX antenna while receiving, you probably will get even more. Put up a vertical RX array or flags and you probably will even get more DB's. 4. Know how to use your rig. The signals you are looking for are always dirt weak. Its taken me years to figure out how to get the best out of a RX to hear the weak ones. Spend time listening to weak CW sigs and try different filter settings, RF gain settings, CW pitch notes. I use a Timewave DSP-599ZX audio filter. It has a "spotlight mode" for CW. In this mode, on a quiet band, I can run the selectivity down to 10 HZ. It buys me another 3 DB or more SN. My 746 PRO has a gob of settings for filters, notches, and noise reduction I use them all and in doing so probably buy myself another 3-5 DB of SN. Many hams have not calibrated their receiver with the proper pitch setting thus they may be off 100+ HZ when looking for a weak signal. With a 10HZ audio filter, 100 HZ off is infinity! Tune in WWV and calibrate everything against it so the pitch you like is right on frequency. This really helps when there is bad QSB. You can sit on a FQ waiting to the QSB to come up without having to tune the station unless he is off FQ. Most rigs today are within 10 HZ so usually you can set it and be right on FQ IF you calibrate your RX properly. In conclusion, working DX on 160 from the west coast is a pain in the butt especially on a small lot. If your crazy enough to try you won't get there unless you fight for every DB transmitting and receiving and spend the time to be there when the band is open. Some guys get lucky and find a quiet location on rich earth, throw a wire over a tree and work DX on 160 with 100w. Don't plan on being lucky! I'm on a 1/3 acre hillside lot over soil with the conductivity of Teflon. My antenna is similar to yours but I have lots of wire on the ground. I'm much closer to the aurora oval than you so my location is the worst of the worst for 160. I'd trade locations with you in a heartbeat. I have used short BOGS, low dipole, loops and other antennas for RX. I just purchased a Hi Z 3 element array I can squeeze on my lot, I have high hopes for it but know I'll have to isolate my vertical while receiving for it to work at all. If I get 3DB SN improvement with it I'll be in heaven! Go for it but understand that there is no easy way to get there unless luck is on your side and it looks like it isn't so go fight for the DB's. Greg
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA (k...@juno.com)
Jeff, Most every one of us has gone through your experience in the beginning so your not alone. There are a few items that are necessary to get where you want to go: 1. there is no substitute for patience. I have gone years here where I have not heard a EU station here. When the sunspots are high like now, the number of EU openings to the west coast are few and far between. That means for those without a stellar station, you may only have 3-4 opportunities per year to hear/work EU. I missed my chance about 1 1/2 weeks ago because I went to be early. West coast EU opening opportunities peak just after your sunset and just before/during EU's sunrise. In any case, you have to be there to work them. That means your on alert every day watching CC user, checking the band, waiting for your infrequent openings. 2) Transmitting. 160 is like moon bounce, EVERY DB COUNTS. Your running 800 watts so consider yourself already 3 db from where you should be. You described your antenna. It seems reasonable but you don't have a good ground system. Consider yourself another 2-3 DB down. There is a wealth of information about radials in the archives of this digest, read it. In any case, there is no substitute for 2000' + of wire on our under the ground. Your lucky because you can eliminate the 5DB loss you currently have with a minimal effort. 3. Receiving. Your transmit antenna is the worst RX antenna you can have. Its not only bad but it can ruin outer RX antennas near, and with your 1/2 acre, it will. A simple short BOG or two will make a world of difference. Remember think moon bounce, without a short BOG your probably 3-10 DB down signal to noise than you should be. A NE BOG 200' long operating properly will get you some of that loss back and if you isolate your TX antenna while receiving, you probably will get even more. Put up a vertical RX array or flags and you probably will even get more DB's. 4. Know how to use your rig. The signals you are looking for are always dirt weak. Its taken me years to figure out how to get the best out of a RX to hear the weak ones. Spend time listening to weak CW sigs and try different filter settings, RF gain settings, CW pitch notes. I use a Timewave DSP-599ZX audio filter. It has a "spotlight mode" for CW. In this mode, on a quiet band, I can run the selectivity down to 10 HZ. It buys me another 3 DB or more SN. My 746 PRO has a gob of settings for filters, notches, and noise reduction I use them all and in doing so probably buy myself another 3-5 DB of SN. Many hams have not calibrated their receiver with the proper pitch setting thus they may be off 100+ HZ when looking for a weak signal. With a 10HZ audio filter, 100 HZ off is infinity! Tune in WWV and calibrate everything against it so the pitch you like is right on frequency. This really helps when there is bad QSB. You can sit on a FQ waiting to the QSB to come up without having to tune the station unless he is off FQ. Most rigs today are within 10 HZ so usually you can set it and be right on FQ IF you calibrate your RX properly. In conclusion, working DX on 160 from the west coast is a pain in the butt especially on a small lot. If your crazy enough to try you won't get there unless you fight for every DB transmitting and receiving and spend the time to be there when the band is open. Some guys get lucky and find a quiet location on rich earth, throw a wire over a tree and work DX on 160 with 100w. Don't plan on being lucky! I'm on a 1/3 acre hillside lot over soil with the conductivity of Teflon. My antenna is similar to yours but I have lots of wire on the ground. I'm much closer to the aurora oval than you so my location is the worst of the worst for 160. I'd trade locations with you in a heartbeat. I have used short BOGS, low dipole, loops and other antennas for RX. I just purchased a Hi Z 3 element array I can squeeze on my lot, I have high hopes for it but know I'll have to isolate my vertical while receiving for it to work at all. If I get 3DB SN improvement with it I'll be in heaven! Go for it but understand that there is no easy way to get there unless luck is on your side and it looks like it isn't so go fight for the DB's. Greg - Greg Chartrand - W7MY Richland, WA. DN-06IF W7MY Home Page: http://webpages.charter.net/w7my/ * _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA
Message: 2 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:49:44 -0800 From: Subject: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA Hello All, First, I want to describe my problem. I have a 1/2 acre lot in the back property where I install my antennas. I live in the central valley of California which is only about 300 feet ASL. I do not live near the coast nor live in the "high desert ". Some facts regarding this station: 1. I still have not copied or worked into Europe. I have been on this band somewhat seriously for at least 5 years Hi Jeff, You will do well to scour the archives of this reflector, paying close attention to what your nearest neighbors are saying. While I enjoy complaining about living in "the black hole" as much as the next person, in reality, the SJV is not as bad as you might imagine. So what I write is meant to be an encouragement and to offer proof that all is NOT lost! My QTH is about 2 gallons of petrol south of you in Fresno, on a 120x120 city lot. My section of town is plagued with ever-present EMI, and of course, it comes from all directions. I have never had a multi-element TX antenna on 160 (only ever used half-slopers). I have never owned an amplifier capable of the full legal limit. I have no room for even a short Beverage -- although I have considered a short BOG. I made my first DX QSO on 160 in February 1984 (KL7GKY), so I have dinked around on 160 for a lot of years. It wasn't until the late 90s when my DXCC total had climbed above 50 that I began to think in terms of "possible." However, it wasn't until Christmas Eve, 2005 that I FINALLY heard -- and worked -- my first EU (OZ7YY)! In January of 2006 I installed a rotating flag, my first RX antenna. Since then I've used the K9AY for several seasons, I've used a 2-el phased short vertical system, I have tried a very low dipole bent in a U-shape, I also have a small loop. Has any of this ever produced a "night and day" difference? Not on your life. I can assure you of this: every one of these antennas at one time or another was the ONLY antenna that could hear a certain DX station. My 160M DXCC stands at 178 worked (165 confirmed) in 33 Zones. I have worked 36 EU countries on 160, many of them several times over. One glorious night in February, 2010, I worked 17 EU in the space of 4 hours. I have routinely worked the world (including EU) with 100 Watts. I have 22 countries on 5 continents in the log operating QRP. On the other hand, there have been evenings when I couldn't work your FM5 or KV4FZ with a kW to save my life. You will find that condx vary all over the map. Rick, N6RK, and Jim, K9YC (and others) hit the nail on the head... 160M is all about commitment: commitment to improve your TX antenna; commitment to put the time into the band so you understand how it will bite you in the kester; commitment to many, many, many long hours straining noise just to be sure you are at the radio when that once-in-a-lifetime moment comes your way! So... is Atwater the black hole of California? I doubt it! Can you realistically expect "night and day" improvements with a minimum of work? Not on your life! Can you realistically expect to earn DXCC on TB from a small lot? You better believe it! Of course, you better read and re-read the preceding paragraph! :o) Good Luck, Jim - WS6X 2. I hear a few Russians but they don't hear me. 3. I heard a FM5 last few nights peaking 559, called him countleesly with no QSO. My power is about 800 W on this band ( single 3-500 ). I am looking into finding a single GS35 amp for all bands on HFlove that tube. 4. I don't have the capacity to erect a full size radiator on this band although I am curious about the Titanix 160 vertical, what it is and is it worth looking into ? 5. I have read a lot about the K9AY RX loop. I have room for is antenna but before I construct one, what are your opinions ? 6. I also read about a 225 foot beverage run close to the ground as a RX ant. How does this compare to the K9AY loop ? 7. What is the best "short 160 vertical configuration" that has the best performance for working DX ? 8. You will notice I mentioned that I only run a single ground radial on each band. Would adding lets say 3 more Make the difference between night and day for TX or RX ? I think that's about it for now...73. Jeff K7XQ Atwater, CA. _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA
On 1/12/2013 12:49 PM, k...@elite.net wrote: 1. I still have not copied or worked into Europe. I have been on this band somewhat seriously for at least 5 years EU is VERY tough from California, especially northern California. We have to go over the pole. My neighbor, K6XX has more than 60 acres on top of a 2,700 ft ridge up the road from me, and when I moved here he told me he can count the nights he can hear EU on the fingers of one hand. Six seasons have convinced me he's right. We're in the Santa Cruz Mountains. All the stars must be aligned -- propagation that gives us a path but not the east coast, a very good RX antenna, minimal local noise, high power, and a very good antenna system. That includes a serious radial system or other very effective counterpoise. 2. I hear a few Russians but they don't hear me. We have a fairly good shot at Asiatic Russia, and I work some in most contests. There was a UA0 working us a few nights ago an hour or so before midnight, which is unusually early for that path. 3. I heard a FM5 last few nights peaking 559, called him countleesly with no QSO. Stations in that latitude can have a lot of RX noise, and can be difficult to work. My power is about 800 W on this band ( single 3-500 ). I am looking into finding a single GS35 amp for all bands on HFlove that tube. Power is a good thing, but you need antenna help. Others have told you that you need to work on your radial system, and I strongly agree. Also, antenna efficiency increases with increasing vertical height. I did a tutorial on 160M antennas for limited space at Pacificon, and recently repeated it for a local ham club. You may find it useful It's on my webpage as a pdf. http://audiosystemsgroup.com/publish.htm 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA
Jeff, Adding 30 or more on-ground or slightly buried radials for your inv. L will make a big improvement in your tx signal. Also search the reflector archives for previous discussion on all these topics. 73 Jon AA1K Sent via the HTC Vivid™, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone - Reply message - From: k...@elite.net To: Subject: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2013 3:49 pm Hello All, I just assigned myself onto this forum, its been a long time and needs some help and would appreciate some questions answered on this huge experienced based forum. First, I want to describe my problem. I have a 1/2 acre lot in the back property where I install my antennas. The largest HF antenna is a HyGain Hy Tower which works great on 40 and 80. On 160, I run a separate radiator that runs up the side of the hytower separated by 6 inch insulators up to the top and then runs horizontal sloped from the top of the hygain hytower downward to a fence support that results in a full sized 1/4 WL inverted L on 160. The 160 meter feedpoint is common to the hytower feedpoint. I live in the central valley of California which is only about 300 feet ASL. I do not live near the coast nor live in the "high desert ". Some facts regarding this station: 1. I still have not copied or worked into Europe. I have been on this band somewhat seriously for at least 5 years 2. I hear a few Russians but they don't hear me. 3. I heard a FM5 last few nights peaking 559, called him countleesly with no QSO. My power is about 800 W on this band ( single 3-500 ). I am looking into finding a single GS35 amp for all bands on HFlove that tube. 4. I don't have the capacity to erect a full size radiator on this band although I am curious about the Titanix 160 vertical, what it is and is it worth looking into ? 5. I have read a lot about the K9AY RX loop. I have room for is antenna but before I construct one, what are your opinions ? 6. I also read about a 225 foot beverage run close to the ground as a RX ant. How does this compare to the K9AY loop ? 7. What is the best "short 160 vertical configuration" that has the best performance for working DX ? 8. You will notice I mentioned that I only run a single ground radial on each band. Would adding lets say 3 more Make the difference between night and day for TX or RX ? I think that's about it for now...73. Jeff K7XQ Atwater, CA. K7XQ website: http://users.elite.net/k7xq/k7xq.html _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA
I live in the central valley of California which is only about 300 feet ASL. I do not live near the coast nor live in the "high desert ". Height above sea level doesn't matter. Height compared to immediately surrounding terrain is what matters. Some facts regarding this station: 4. I don't have the capacity to erect a full size radiator on this band although I am curious about the Titanix 160 vertical, what it is and is it worth looking into ? There is little to be gained going from 60-70 feet to full height, but you probably could gain some with a change from what you have now to something a bit higher since you are ground system limited. The major problem you have, unless you have other things around the antenna soaking up RF, is lack of a reasonable ground system. 5. I have read a lot about the K9AY RX loop. I have room for is antenna but before I construct one, what are your opinions ? All antennas like that, including Flag's and so on, function as short two-element phased verticals. Any of them will work almost as well as any other for the same effective size. You would get the most effective size from something with the widest spaced and most vertical sides, since the vertical slope of side lenegth is what actually forms the "business part" of the element. 6. I also read about a 225 foot beverage run close to the ground as a RX ant. How does this compare to the K9AY loop ? It could work better. It might not. Try one. The key in limited real estate receiving is to experiment, and especially to not do something wrong when experimenting. 7. What is the best "short 160 vertical configuration" that has the best performance for working DX ? An inverted L is fine, but you really need to fill that area with ground system. 8. You will notice I mentioned that I only run a single ground radial on each band. Would adding lets say 3 more Make the difference between night and day for TX or RX ? Anything will help, but that is still a poor ground system. Since you have a multiple-band vertical antenna that requires a single common ground point, you are probably going to have to buckle up and do a little extraordinary work. There isn't any good choice in a multiband situation, other than using as many wires in or on the ground as straight and long as possible in all directions possible. The wires do not need to be over 1/4 wave long on the lowest band. An alternative would be a large conductive screen, but that is usually even more problematic if it is to last a long time and be reliable. If I were in your shoes, I'd install some short phased verticals of some type and fill my back yard with buried radials. No matter what you read or hear, the notion or sales pitch that one or two radials per band is enough. is wrong. You probably have a terrible ground on all or most bands. Fix them all. Fill the yard with as many of the longest, straightest, radials you can in as many directions as you can, and tie in any large metal fences, posts, plumbing, and other potential grounds as you can. That's the only proper way to do multiple bands. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Need help to improve DX on 1/2 acre lot from CA
Hello All, I got several replies on my situation and really appreciate it. Just about every reply starting with adding more ground radials. I am having a hard time believing That simply adding ground radials will cause the signals to pop up out of the noise but Since I do not have any experience in this area, I will not argue with the experts So I will continue with a few more questions. I know for certain that it will improve the TX side though. BTW, I also want to mention that I live on the west coast. It is very difficult to work into EU from here and I am sitting in a RF hole ( central valley ) so I have virtually no high elevation or high desert to help my situation. This is also a big problem on 6 meters so working EME on this band solves that problem. The one good thing going for me is that I live In a relatively quiet location on most bands. Some replies mentioned that the radials don't necessarily have to be full 1/4 wavelength long. If this is the case, what is the smallest length that I can use to be effective ? The next challenges is laying down the multiple radials. One reply mentioned I can use less radials If they are elevated to about 10 feet. Any further comments and experiences on this ? One reply mentioned using a top loaded vertical ( short vertical using multiple horizontal Radials at the top ? ) How many operators use these and what were the results ? I don't know how long the band will be active until the band dies for the season so I am not sure How much longer I have to make these improvements. The challenge continues Jeff K7XQ Atwater, CA. K7XQ website: http://users.elite.net/k7xq/k7xq.html _ Topband Reflector
