Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
This being made is that anyone could improperly, illegally, whatever use their own call...Ie a USA call from an Italy remote to work some rare DX. It certainly can and it probably happens. Cheaters will cheat. I don't compare my DXCC to anyone else. I have no clue how they did it and don't care. The integrity of the program is irrelevant. We are not selling our awards to anyone. There is no pot of gold for working them all. The integrity of the award is individual. I hope that the vast majority have done it within the rules only you know if you cheated. Mike W0MU On 2/28/2015 6:32 PM, Michael Tope wrote: Doug, I don't think using remotes in different countries would be permitted even under the most liberal interpretation of the new ARRL DXCC rules. As far as I know, for example, using the RHR site in Sicily would require me to sign IT9/W4EF. If I were to simply sign W4EF, I would likely not be in compliance with Sicilian telecommunications law. If I tried to submit a QSL made out to IT9/W4EF, for my US DXCC, it would not count since clearly the contact was not made from a transmitter located in the continental United States. Thus, to make use of a remote in a different country to gain an advantage in the ARRL awards program, requires more than an ethical breach. It requires breaking the law since I would have to sign W4EF when using the IT9 remote to pull it off. . 73 Mike W4EF... On 2/27/2015 1:07 PM, Doug Renwick wrote: -*** Let me help out here. I have gone on record in past postings that I personally do NOT have a problem with remote operations in the vicinity of their home station. The problem is people using remotes in different countries and on different sides of the continent to inflate their standings. Doug As to this specific thing; If someone is in another country close to rare DX, visits a ham and uses their station and then uses their own home call when making the easy Q, that's cheating. This kind of cheating has been possible all along, it may make it easier with today's technology. I never worked Don Miller but I did work Romeo, both DXers were notorious for supposedly claiming to be where they weren't slews of people worked them feeling they worked a legit operation. I worked Romeo in 91 as XY0RR and got his QSL it counted for DXCC. Once I heard the flap about his operation, I didn't feel I fairly worked Myanmar until I got confirmation from XZ1J for a Q in 2013. People have been claiming DXCC credit unfairly and giving it for years. RHR will not make anything new happen. I just sent something offlist to one of us and I agree with what I said... As to people not doing the right thing with a tool, that's been happening since those apes hit each other with femurs in the opening scene in the movie 2001. Or as the Who said in We won't get fooled again: Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss. People have been cooking the books for years someone always will be; hasn't stopped me from having fun for 35+ years. 73, Gary KA1J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
Doug, I don't think using remotes in different countries would be permitted even under the most liberal interpretation of the new ARRL DXCC rules. As far as I know, for example, using the RHR site in Sicily would require me to sign IT9/W4EF. If I were to simply sign W4EF, I would likely not be in compliance with Sicilian telecommunications law. If I tried to submit a QSL made out to IT9/W4EF, for my US DXCC, it would not count since clearly the contact was not made from a transmitter located in the continental United States. Thus, to make use of a remote in a different country to gain an advantage in the ARRL awards program, requires more than an ethical breach. It requires breaking the law since I would have to sign W4EF when using the IT9 remote to pull it off. . 73 Mike W4EF... On 2/27/2015 1:07 PM, Doug Renwick wrote: -*** Let me help out here. I have gone on record in past postings that I personally do NOT have a problem with remote operations in the vicinity of their home station. The problem is people using remotes in different countries and on different sides of the continent to inflate their standings. Doug As to this specific thing; If someone is in another country close to rare DX, visits a ham and uses their station and then uses their own home call when making the easy Q, that's cheating. This kind of cheating has been possible all along, it may make it easier with today's technology. I never worked Don Miller but I did work Romeo, both DXers were notorious for supposedly claiming to be where they weren't slews of people worked them feeling they worked a legit operation. I worked Romeo in 91 as XY0RR and got his QSL it counted for DXCC. Once I heard the flap about his operation, I didn't feel I fairly worked Myanmar until I got confirmation from XZ1J for a Q in 2013. People have been claiming DXCC credit unfairly and giving it for years. RHR will not make anything new happen. I just sent something offlist to one of us and I agree with what I said... As to people not doing the right thing with a tool, that's been happening since those apes hit each other with femurs in the opening scene in the movie 2001. Or as the Who said in We won't get fooled again: Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss. People have been cooking the books for years someone always will be; hasn't stopped me from having fun for 35+ years. 73, Gary KA1J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
The way I look at the recent rule tweak is that the ARRL is trying to recognize evolving technology and trends in a manner harmonious to what's already been acceptable under the DXCC rules. Hasn't it been acceptable for a while now to go to the opposite side of the country, work DX, and have it count? Hasn't it been tolerated to go to someone's better-equipped station, work a rare one, and get credit? As long as there's no deception of where RF is being emitted and received, the rule tweak seems plausible. I've got DXCC and DXCC Challenge plaques hanging on my shack wall. They bring a smile to my face, and I'd rather not let any frustration I could feel about cheaters spoil the fun I had in qualifying for them, or the incentive they give in guiding some further play on HF and topband. But, if there are many people upset by the perceived unfairness of remote controlled stations, intra-country travel, and/or station sharing...perhaps the answer would be to call for the introduction of a new award. Call it DX2CC, operating with the same general principles as DXCC, but requiring all contacts to be made on stations built/maintained by or specifically for the ham, with contacts occurring within a given entity and within a certain radius. It'd be unfair to impose such rules on a go-forward basis on DXCC, but you could start fresh with a new award and more challenging rules. I'd chase such awards. (But who am I kidding; I chase just about everything anyway.) -- Michael Adams | N1EN | m...@n1en.org -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of W0MU Mike Fatchett Sent: Friday, 27 February, 2015 11:01 To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Remote now DXCC?? Why are we centered on remote operations dirtying up the DXCC program? DXCC is far from clean now and from the limited amount of reading available people have been scamming DXCC long before I was licensed in 1978. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
Yes the DXCC award you have earned is yours. But the problem is the publishing of the standings. The cheaters, commercial RHR users, ethical types are all grouped together. If the standings were not published, highlighted, promoted then it would be a personal award. But when ALL are grouped together in the standings by call sign and totals, then it becomes an issue. No, the ARRL recognizes they can't/don't want to control the cheaters and so have abdicated their responsibility in setting ethical standards. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- Why are we centered on remote operations dirtying up the DXCC program? DXCC is far from clean now and from the limited amount of reading available people have been scamming DXCC long before I was licensed in 1978. The ARRL recognizes that this is a new and upcoming technology and the more and more people will be using it. The DXCC program is based on YOUR moral and ethical fiber not to cheat. We through some card checking in there and catch a few problems here and there. I was doing an audit of my award and found and number of typos that gave me credit for countries I never worked on certain bands. I alerted the DXCC desk and they fixed them. How many other people are going to take the time to do what I did and then willingly remove a confirmation. I would hope most, but many don't care. We know people have been using excessive and illegal power for years and years. People have submitted QSL cards that have been altered or submitted cards that for countries they have never worked. We know people said they want to places they did not. How many did we catch vs how many that were not. How many of you know things have never been reported. Remote receivers. Remote Xmitters. The DXCC award that you earn is yours. How you get there is up to you and your integrity, morals, ethics, etc. The cheating has been going on for years and years and years. Remote is just another avenue for a cheater to use. The issuing of a DXCC award to someone else has no bearing on your award. Nothing changed. You didn't drop a spot or gain a spot. Your standing is based on the number of countries you have worked and claimed. If the ARRL did not make money selling plaques and certificates and LOTW credits do you really think they would be pushing it? The Centennial QSO party was marketing genius. They sold tons of LOTW credits and awards. They are not making any money from my Life Membership that I paid for 30 years ago. Ham radio is centered around the vast majority of people doing it right and they do. For the most part we are a self policing group. Just like packet, remote radio is here, has been here for a while and it is never going away. Remote radio is not going affect your awards and you will probably never know if and when you work remote stations. The only problems I see are perceived problems that might happen or that have been happening for years that most just never knew about. Running remote from W7 and not telling people that your Xmitter is in Virginia is just one bad apple. He should do what is right. How many slims have we all worked? Plenty. What was the result of that? Go work the station again. Mike W0MU --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
Why does publishing the results change anything. Is there a prize for being Honor Roll number 1? How do you account for all the other dirty contacts on the DXCC rolls? Those are just ignored and only remote contacts are the problem? Once again they publish where you stand. If guess if you need to compare yourself to other people on the list so be it. I have been working on and off for DXCC honor roll since 1978. It is not a race for me. Obtaining Honor Role takes time, skill and patience. The more time people have to spend in front of their radio the more dx they work. The guy that has 10 more countries than me is not necessarily any better at dxing than I am. He might just have been on the radio more and was in an area that had better propagation. You are trying to find reasons to discredit remote operations by filling holes in a DXCC program that is far from perfect. Mike W0MU On 2/27/2015 11:02 AM, Doug Renwick wrote: Yes the DXCC award you have earned is yours. But the problem is the publishing of the standings. The cheaters, commercial RHR users, ethical types are all grouped together. If the standings were not published, highlighted, promoted then it would be a personal award. But when ALL are grouped together in the standings by call sign and totals, then it becomes an issue. No, the ARRL recognizes they can't/don't want to control the cheaters and so have abdicated their responsibility in setting ethical standards. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- Why are we centered on remote operations dirtying up the DXCC program? DXCC is far from clean now and from the limited amount of reading available people have been scamming DXCC long before I was licensed in 1978. The ARRL recognizes that this is a new and upcoming technology and the more and more people will be using it. The DXCC program is based on YOUR moral and ethical fiber not to cheat. We through some card checking in there and catch a few problems here and there. I was doing an audit of my award and found and number of typos that gave me credit for countries I never worked on certain bands. I alerted the DXCC desk and they fixed them. How many other people are going to take the time to do what I did and then willingly remove a confirmation. I would hope most, but many don't care. We know people have been using excessive and illegal power for years and years. People have submitted QSL cards that have been altered or submitted cards that for countries they have never worked. We know people said they want to places they did not. How many did we catch vs how many that were not. How many of you know things have never been reported. Remote receivers. Remote Xmitters. The DXCC award that you earn is yours. How you get there is up to you and your integrity, morals, ethics, etc. The cheating has been going on for years and years and years. Remote is just another avenue for a cheater to use. The issuing of a DXCC award to someone else has no bearing on your award. Nothing changed. You didn't drop a spot or gain a spot. Your standing is based on the number of countries you have worked and claimed. If the ARRL did not make money selling plaques and certificates and LOTW credits do you really think they would be pushing it? The Centennial QSO party was marketing genius. They sold tons of LOTW credits and awards. They are not making any money from my Life Membership that I paid for 30 years ago. Ham radio is centered around the vast majority of people doing it right and they do. For the most part we are a self policing group. Just like packet, remote radio is here, has been here for a while and it is never going away. Remote radio is not going affect your awards and you will probably never know if and when you work remote stations. The only problems I see are perceived problems that might happen or that have been happening for years that most just never knew about. Running remote from W7 and not telling people that your Xmitter is in Virginia is just one bad apple. He should do what is right. How many slims have we all worked? Plenty. What was the result of that? Go work the station again. Mike W0MU --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
You are suggesting something like WAS where all QSO have to be made within a 25 mile radius (something close to that). 73, Larry W6NWS -Original Message- From: Michael Adams Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:24 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC?? The way I look at the recent rule tweak is that the ARRL is trying to recognize evolving technology and trends in a manner harmonious to what's already been acceptable under the DXCC rules. Hasn't it been acceptable for a while now to go to the opposite side of the country, work DX, and have it count? Hasn't it been tolerated to go to someone's better-equipped station, work a rare one, and get credit? As long as there's no deception of where RF is being emitted and received, the rule tweak seems plausible. I've got DXCC and DXCC Challenge plaques hanging on my shack wall. They bring a smile to my face, and I'd rather not let any frustration I could feel about cheaters spoil the fun I had in qualifying for them, or the incentive they give in guiding some further play on HF and topband. But, if there are many people upset by the perceived unfairness of remote controlled stations, intra-country travel, and/or station sharing...perhaps the answer would be to call for the introduction of a new award. Call it DX2CC, operating with the same general principles as DXCC, but requiring all contacts to be made on stations built/maintained by or specifically for the ham, with contacts occurring within a given entity and within a certain radius. It'd be unfair to impose such rules on a go-forward basis on DXCC, but you could start fresh with a new award and more challenging rules. I'd chase such awards. (But who am I kidding; I chase just about everything anyway.) -- Michael Adams | N1EN | m...@n1en.org -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of W0MU Mike Fatchett Sent: Friday, 27 February, 2015 11:01 To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Remote now DXCC?? Why are we centered on remote operations dirtying up the DXCC program? DXCC is far from clean now and from the limited amount of reading available people have been scamming DXCC long before I was licensed in 1978. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
Response below *** -Original Message- Why does publishing the results change anything. Is there a prize for being Honor Roll number 1? *** yes How do you account for all the other dirty contacts on the DXCC rolls? Those are just ignored and only remote contacts are the problem? *** Read my post again: The cheaters, commercial RHR users, ethical types are all grouped together. You mention 'dirty contacts' ... care to explain? Once again they publish where you stand. If guess if you need to compare yourself to other people on the list so be it. I have been working on and off for DXCC honor roll since 1978. It is not a race for me. Obtaining Honor Role takes time, skill and patience. The more time people have to spend in front of their radio the more dx they work. *** Fine, not a race for you but a race for others. The guy that has 10 more countries than me is not necessarily any better at dxing than I am. He might just have been on the radio more and was in an area that had better propagation. You are trying to find reasons to discredit remote operations by filling holes in a DXCC program that is far from perfect. *** Let me help out here. I have gone on record in past postings that I personally do NOT have a problem with remote operations in the vicinity of their home station. The problem is people using remotes in different countries and on different sides of the continent to inflate their standings. Doug Mike W0MU On 2/27/2015 11:02 AM, Doug Renwick wrote: Yes the DXCC award you have earned is yours. But the problem is the publishing of the standings. The cheaters, commercial RHR users, ethical types are all grouped together. If the standings were not published, highlighted, promoted then it would be a personal award. But when ALL are grouped together in the standings by call sign and totals, then it becomes an issue. No, the ARRL recognizes they can't/don't want to control the cheaters and so have abdicated their responsibility in setting ethical standards. Doug --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
*** Let me help out here. I have gone on record in past postings that I personally do NOT have a problem with remote operations in the vicinity of their home station. The problem is people using remotes in different countries and on different sides of the continent to inflate their standings. Doug As to this specific thing; If someone is in another country close to rare DX, visits a ham and uses their station and then uses their own home call when making the easy Q, that's cheating. This kind of cheating has been possible all along, it may make it easier with today's technology. I never worked Don Miller but I did work Romeo, both DXers were notorious for supposedly claiming to be where they weren't slews of people worked them feeling they worked a legit operation. I worked Romeo in 91 as XY0RR and got his QSL it counted for DXCC. Once I heard the flap about his operation, I didn't feel I fairly worked Myanmar until I got confirmation from XZ1J for a Q in 2013. People have been claiming DXCC credit unfairly and giving it for years. RHR will not make anything new happen. I just sent something offlist to one of us and I agree with what I said... As to people not doing the right thing with a tool, that's been happening since those apes hit each other with femurs in the opening scene in the movie 2001. Or as the Who said in We won't get fooled again: Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss. People have been cooking the books for years someone always will be; hasn't stopped me from having fun for 35+ years. 73, Gary KA1J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
Yes you are probably right that protesting won't change a thing. But should that mean that when something negative like this happens, that voicing an objection is not considered? Should we just shrug and say 'whatever'. Some do say whatever. Yes cheating has been around for some time. The question is where do you set your standards? High or low. Yes it is just a hobby, but how it plays affects us in other ways. Doug -Original Message- *** Let me help out here. I have gone on record in past postings that I personally do NOT have a problem with remote operations in the vicinity of their home station. The problem is people using remotes in different countries and on different sides of the continent to inflate their standings. Doug As to this specific thing; If someone is in another country close to rare DX, visits a ham and uses their station and then uses their own home call when making the easy Q, that's cheating. This kind of cheating has been possible all along, it may make it easier with today's technology. I never worked Don Miller but I did work Romeo, both DXers were notorious for supposedly claiming to be where they weren't slews of people worked them feeling they worked a legit operation. I worked Romeo in 91 as XY0RR and got his QSL it counted for DXCC. Once I heard the flap about his operation, I didn't feel I fairly worked Myanmar until I got confirmation from XZ1J for a Q in 2013. People have been claiming DXCC credit unfairly and giving it for years. RHR will not make anything new happen. I just sent something offlist to one of us and I agree with what I said... As to people not doing the right thing with a tool, that's been happening since those apes hit each other with femurs in the opening scene in the movie 2001. Or as the Who said in We won't get fooled again: Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss. People have been cooking the books for years someone always will be; hasn't stopped me from having fun for 35+ years. 73, Gary KA1J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
The irony of setting out to win at all costs is that it cheapens the victories. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
It's not that my opinion really matters to anyone but me. I was thinking more that right or wrong, somebody somewhere will do wrong. I wasn't thinking as much along the lines of the complaining not helping (which it doesn't). For instance: In my garage I have a tool, a 9 pound sledge hammer that belonged to my grandfather. One solid whack with it and a lot of force is imparted to a very tiny area and things always either break or move. I suppose there's all kinds of bad things I could do with it but I use it to break up the rocks the glacier left on what is now my yard so I can mow over rather than around them. The analogy to me is if a person has a tool they either use it properly or improperly and that's up to the person holding the sledge. RHR doesn't make an operation immoral any more than making an ATNO DXCC contact while mobile in a different state than you live is immoral to claim for DXCC credit. To me and apparently to many, it's not where the operator sits, its where the transmitter sits. As to people breaking the rules; cops give out tickets every day. A tool does not a problem make. 73, Gary, KA1J Yes you are probably right that protesting won't change a thing. But should that mean that when something negative like this happens, that voicing an objection is not considered? Should we just shrug and say 'whatever'. Some do say whatever. Yes cheating has been around for some time. The question is where do you set your standards? High or low. Yes it is just a hobby, but how it plays affects us in other ways. Doug -Original Message- *** Let me help out here. I have gone on record in past postings that I personally do NOT have a problem with remote operations in the vicinity of their home station. The problem is people using remotes in different countries and on different sides of the continent to inflate their standings. Doug As to this specific thing; If someone is in another country close to rare DX, visits a ham and uses their station and then uses their own home call when making the easy Q, that's cheating. This kind of cheating has been possible all along, it may make it easier with today's technology. I never worked Don Miller but I did work Romeo, both DXers were notorious for supposedly claiming to be where they weren't slews of people worked them feeling they worked a legit operation. I worked Romeo in 91 as XY0RR and got his QSL it counted for DXCC. Once I heard the flap about his operation, I didn't feel I fairly worked Myanmar until I got confirmation from XZ1J for a Q in 2013. People have been claiming DXCC credit unfairly and giving it for years. RHR will not make anything new happen. I just sent something offlist to one of us and I agree with what I said... As to people not doing the right thing with a tool, that's been happening since those apes hit each other with femurs in the opening scene in the movie 2001. Or as the Who said in We won't get fooled again: Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss. People have been cooking the books for years someone always will be; hasn't stopped me from having fun for 35+ years. 73, Gary KA1J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Remote now DXCC??
What bad thing happened? A bunch of guys made contacts. Nothing bad happened. A sick station owner gets to build a station and have people operate it. In this case nothing bad happened. Why turn this into a witch hunt? Everything was LEGAL! Mike W0MU On 2/27/2015 2:07 PM, Doug Renwick wrote: Yes you are probably right that protesting won't change a thing. But should that mean that when something negative like this happens, that voicing an objection is not considered? Should we just shrug and say 'whatever'. Some do say whatever. Yes cheating has been around for some time. The question is where do you set your standards? High or low. Yes it is just a hobby, but how it plays affects us in other ways. Doug -Original Message- *** Let me help out here. I have gone on record in past postings that I personally do NOT have a problem with remote operations in the vicinity of their home station. The problem is people using remotes in different countries and on different sides of the continent to inflate their standings. Doug As to this specific thing; If someone is in another country close to rare DX, visits a ham and uses their station and then uses their own home call when making the easy Q, that's cheating. This kind of cheating has been possible all along, it may make it easier with today's technology. I never worked Don Miller but I did work Romeo, both DXers were notorious for supposedly claiming to be where they weren't slews of people worked them feeling they worked a legit operation. I worked Romeo in 91 as XY0RR and got his QSL it counted for DXCC. Once I heard the flap about his operation, I didn't feel I fairly worked Myanmar until I got confirmation from XZ1J for a Q in 2013. People have been claiming DXCC credit unfairly and giving it for years. RHR will not make anything new happen. I just sent something offlist to one of us and I agree with what I said... As to people not doing the right thing with a tool, that's been happening since those apes hit each other with femurs in the opening scene in the movie 2001. Or as the Who said in We won't get fooled again: Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss. People have been cooking the books for years someone always will be; hasn't stopped me from having fun for 35+ years. 73, Gary KA1J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
