Topband: Folded CounterPoise ???

2016-04-15 Thread Guy Olinger K2AV
A grossly late insertion to this discussion...apologies.  Medical
situations have not been conducive to quick replies.

The FCP is always fed in the center. FCP dimensions should *not* be changed
for tuning SWR. The folds are designed for minimum *net* field at near
field distances. Monkeying with FCP dimensions for other reasons messes up
this very low net field.

Roughly described, with one feedline conductor going to a radiating wire, a
counterpoise is a place to store the energy from the other feed conductor,
and then return it dissipating as little possible of that energy. The FCP
wires all create fields, but the trick with the shape of the wire folds,
given enough distance, causes the fields from the three main wires to sum
to only a few percent of any one wire's field at any takeoff vector. In
free space, an FCP has so little net field at any departure vector, that
the copper wire accounts for %99 percent of energy loss, and NEC4
calculates the best "gain" at -31 dBi. That's minus 31.

In reality down here on planet Earth, nearby dielectric material is often
too close to take significant advantage of the model's free space
all-fields-add-to-zero. Ideally the only nearby dielectric is ground 8 to
10 feet below. But in small lot reality, nearby dielectric may be walls,
fencing, trees and other vegetation, etc.

The FCP may be more simply understood as an opposed pair of 1/16 wave
radials somehow with a much more workable feed impedance. And directly
below the center there is a null in sum of fields because the left radial
has current going one way and the right radial going the other. This center
null is part of the effectiveness near the ground. Make a 90 degree bend at
the center and the sum in the middle is incomplete, not working as well.

So bending at the center is *not* the recommended configuration, as there
will be increased net field at ground, therefore increased ground losses.
The recommended bend for unavoidable corners is at the midpoint of either
side, e.g. at  16 feet either side of center, which retains the
cancellation from the center of the FCP.  We do understand that physical
circumstances may not allow the recommended point for a bend. Something is
better than nothing. And even a center-bent FCP will be better than typical
alternatives seen on a small lot.

We now recommend 8-10 feet of height (2.5-3 meters), at least 1 foot from
tree trunks, and as far away from walls, houses or massive dielectric as
from the ground. Do not run the FCP through bushes and trees. Circumstances
may not permit all avoidances, but design your placement with as much of
this separation as you can manage and get away with.

In one high end HOA neighborhood stealth placement, all the wire was
spray-painted black and run through the bushes and trees. L and FCP were
unnoticed by guests from HOA committee eating supper out on the patio, a
mere 50 feet from the wire. The HOA never did catch on. SWR curve was
broader than typical for that combo, most likely indicating added loss. It
worked well compared to other things the ham had tried, and certainly was a
winner vs. no 160 at all. He worked into Europe from southeast US and the
antenna was a source of stealthy pride.

The FCP wires can all be at the same height and spaced horizontally, or
they can be spaced vertically. If they go past close tree trunks, the wires
should be spaced vertically. Supporting an FCP with trees using electric
fence screw-in insulators (e.g. wires an inch or two away from the trunk)
is decidedly *not* recommended.

If you can get away with placing the FCP in the clear, supporting it with a
center PVC pipe support and rope to a support point at the end, then do it.

Every departure from the recommended configuration has some degree of loss
added. You do what you can get away with. It will still be far less loss
than faint and irregular imitations of commercial grade radial fields.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 1:29 PM, James Bennett  wrote:

> Douglas,
>
> My 160 meter antenna is also located in a corner. I put my FCP up along
> the two intersecting fences, such that there is a 90 degree bend, right at
> the center of the FCP. It works just fine in this configuration. So, if you
> are able to use a 90 degree installation of the FCP, give it a try - it
> ought to work for you as mine did for me.
>
> 73, Jim
>
> Jim Bennett / W6JHB
> Folsom, CA
>
> > On Aug 29, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Douglas Ruz (CO8DM) 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Originally, the FCP is connected in the center (33ft each side for
> 160m)...Did somebody try connect it at one END ???.
> >
> > Probably i will install my vertical in a corner of my property and some
> neighbours houses do not allow connect the FCP in the middle.
> >
> > any idea?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 73Douglas, CO8DM
> >
> > "No creo que haya alguna emoción más intensa para un inventor que ver
> alguna de sus creaciones funcionando. Esa emoción hace que uno se olvide de
> comer, de dormir, de to

Re: Topband: Folded CounterPoise ???

2015-08-29 Thread James Bennett
Douglas,

My 160 meter antenna is also located in a corner. I put my FCP up along the two 
intersecting fences, such that there is a 90 degree bend, right at the center 
of the FCP. It works just fine in this configuration. So, if you are able to 
use a 90 degree installation of the FCP, give it a try - it ought to work for 
you as mine did for me.

73, Jim

Jim Bennett / W6JHB
Folsom, CA

> On Aug 29, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Douglas Ruz (CO8DM)  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Originally, the FCP is connected in the center (33ft each side for 
> 160m)...Did somebody try connect it at one END ???.
> 
> Probably i will install my vertical in a corner of my property and some 
> neighbours houses do not allow connect the FCP in the middle.
> 
> any idea?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 73Douglas, CO8DM
> 
> "No creo que haya alguna emoción más intensa para un inventor que ver alguna 
> de sus creaciones funcionando. Esa emoción hace que uno se olvide de comer, 
> de dormir, de todo." - Nikola Tesla
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
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Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Folded CounterPoise ???

2015-08-29 Thread Douglas Ruz (CO8DM)

Hi,

Originally, the FCP is connected in the center (33ft each side for 
160m)...Did somebody try connect it at one END ???.


Probably i will install my vertical in a corner of my property and some 
neighbours houses do not allow connect the FCP in the middle.


any idea?

Thanks,

73Douglas, CO8DM

"No creo que haya alguna emoción más intensa para un inventor que ver alguna 
de sus creaciones funcionando. Esa emoción hace que uno se olvide de comer, 
de dormir, de todo." - Nikola Tesla


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


Topband: Folded counterpoise, recent before and after stories

2011-12-30 Thread Guy Olinger K2AV
K5AF lives in San Antonio on a 75' x 100' corner lot.  His general purpose
antenna is a tuned doublet that starts at the corner light post and goes
across his roof to a neighbor's tree in the opposite corner.  His highest
tree is 40', all of them having been fresh-planted 5' saplings when he
moved in.  Although he can easily tune the doublet in different
configurations to 160, his results on the doublet at 100 watts have been
considerably less than encouraging.

He has installed an FCP along the 75' back fence and has a mostly vertical
run up to 40 feet and then toward the front with a miscellaneous route to
get natural resonance with FCP+isolation transformer+wire.  So basically he
is FCP and 40' vertical and rest low wire.

A couple nights ago, when the band was nicely open, 0430-0500Z he ran CQ's
and let RBN follow everything, doublet, then FCP/vert, then doublet.
 Here's the results, best spot strength per RBN on antenna for the period.
 W3LPL was the only one that was double faded on FCP.  Doublet before and
doublet afterward were comparable.  Paul is still working on the antenna to
reduce induction to stuff on his lot and is not done.  At his power level,
on a "postage stamp" lot with minimal antenna possibilities, adding 7 dB is
huge.

K5AF RBN spots. San Antonio, TX

RBN   Doublet FCP Vert Diff Loc

K3LR   16 dB   26 dB   10   PA
N0TA   19 dB   25 dB6   CO
K8ND   17 dB   24 dB7   OH
WZ7I   14 dB   23 dB9   PA
KM3T6 dB   21 dB   15   NH
WA7LNW 15 dB   21 dB6   NV
NY3A8 dB   17 dB9   PA
NC7J7 dB   12 dB5   UT
N4ZR5 dB8 dB3   WV
W3LPL   6 dB6 dB0   MD

AVERAGE DIFF:   7 dB

Unpaired readings:

WE4S   17 dB -  -   GA
KS4XQ   7 dB -  -   SC
W4AX-   26 dB   -   GA

W4KAZ did a more direct comparison.  He took the antenna off a rig and just
let it sit in a corner of the shack, and noted the RX strength of 100 watts
on 20+ misc length on ground radials. Then he switched to the FCP, took up
all the radials and hit the key again.  He had to reduce the power to 20
watts to get to the prior RX strength.   Again 7 dB.  This was verified
with RBN's vs local hams where prior diffs were known.  In Keith's case,
the only available interpretation was that switching to the FCP and
isolation transformer removed 7 dB of induced ground loss, whatever the
method of induction, where ever it was.

Whether one wants to deal with an FCP or not, what should be more ominous
is that if you do not have a DENSE and UNIFORM radial field, you are most
likely dealing with quite more loss than you think.  Models do NOT predict
this measured magnitude of change.  They seem to severely underestimate
ground induction loss.

We will keep up the stories as they come in.

73, Guy
___
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