Re: Topband: 160 Antenna
OK, I ran the random wire, It was a convenient length, from the eve of the house just outside the shack with a like ten foot length of RG-58 from the tuner, and out with the wire to a tree almost due south 75 feet away. No ground system, wire connected to center conductor of the coax. braid connected to nothing wire end, and to the tuner at the tuner end. wire about 10 feet above ground. It actually hears better than the center pin only vertical set up by an average of about 10 db. And by at least 20 db when the 40 vertical ran fully connected. Now how to improve some? I would assume to make it longer, try to get to at least 1/4 wave,, but then it won't be straight at all. Might make tuner happy if it was longer. the tuner was able to get the swr dead flat BUT the "L" was maxed out. so I assume some more wire over the only 75 feet it has now might help that issue. Now since it is all horizontal, not like an inverted L, I cant really add wire to the braid to make a radial. wonder what I should do to make it better using the braid. Thoughts? Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 12/17/2018 8:31 AM, Joe wrote: OK, as users of this band, we all have probably done this at least once in your radio lifetime. You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but you just push the connector in just so only the center pin is touching, and load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, vertical, or end fed long wire. Hey it works. I'm thinking of doing something similar, because a full sized 1/4 wave elevated vertical for 40 meters, works as well as a cannenna does when trying to use it on 160. But I never thought of what might be the best way to do this. The antenna as stated is a full sized 1/4 wave elevated Vertical, The base of the vertical is 10 feet above the ground with sloping radials that act as guy wires also to hold the base in place. At the base of the antenna right at the feedpoint, is a large multi turn coax choke. ( Ya know the so many turns on a PVC pipe thing ) The feedline is then ran through the air for about 60 feet to the eve of the house where it runs along the eve of the house on 2 sides and finally into the shack. Total length is about 100 feet. Now I am trying to decide without actually trying to make up connectors or whatever, what might be the best way to use this on 160. 1- As described above just the center pin, touching. I guess with the braid floating the braid gets capacitivly coupled to the power and does the radiating and receiving. YES? NO? BUT I can see the RF actually also going and using the existing vertical because of the touching center pin. BUT, the braid signal, I'm assuming the RF is not getting past the Coax coil and using the radials. 2- Apply power to only the braid? similiar to #1 but backwards. again no power to the radials probably?, and only cap coupled to the vertical. 3- short the center and shield together and run it that way. Anyone have any thoughts of the best configuration any thoughts? Or how would a end fed random wire like 1/4 wave long about 10 feet up work better? Joe WB9SBD _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: 160 Antenna
On 12/17/2018 9:10 AM, Gary Kohtala - K7EK via Topband wrote: Short the braid and center conductor and attach that to your tuner single wire connection.. It will work much better than connecting only one side. This willgive you a top loaded vertical or semi vertical. I've done it with100w without issues of RFI. Higher power might be a different story,depending on the physical placement of things in and around your shack.Having a decent ground If you feed a dipole with a balanced line, then shorting it together at the bottom properly turns the antenna into a T top vertical. If you feed a dipole with coax possibly including a balun, the scheme you describe doesn't really work like the balanced line system. Shorting the braid and center conductor at the bottom is only really effective if the electrical length of the coax is a multiple of a half wavelength, and only if there is no balun at the feedpoint. If the coax is an odd multiple of a quarter wave, then the short at the bottom does nothing. The leg connected the center conductor will not be driven. There are so many random variables that any given antenna might sort of work by chance. 73 Rick N6RK _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: 160 Antenna
Short the braid and center conductor and attach that to your tuner single wire connection.. It will work much better than connecting only one side. This willgive you a top loaded vertical or semi vertical. I've done it with100w without issues of RFI. Higher power might be a different story,depending on the physical placement of things in and around your shack.Having a decent ground connection to the tuner chassis would be a plus. Best regards, Gary, K7EK On Monday, December 17, 2018, 2:47:32 PM GMT, K4SAV wrote: Joe said "You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but you just push the connector in just so only the center pin is touching, and load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, vertical, or end fed long wire. Hey it works. " Back many years ago I did the same thing. Well, I knew better but I had this flash of stupidity overcome me and I wanted to use it while it was fresh. I blew out all the horizontal drivers in the big projection TV set. Jerry, K4SAV On 12/17/2018 8:31 AM, Joe wrote: > OK, as users of this band, we all have probably done this at least > once in your radio lifetime. > > You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you > connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but > you just push the connector in just so only the center pin is > touching, and load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, > vertical, or end fed long wire. Hey it works. > > I'm thinking of doing something similar, because a full sized 1/4 wave > elevated vertical for 40 meters, works as well as a cannenna does when > trying to use it on 160. > > But I never thought of what might be the best way to do this. The > antenna as stated is a full sized 1/4 wave elevated Vertical, The > base of the vertical is 10 feet above the ground with sloping radials > that act as guy wires also to hold the base in place. > > At the base of the antenna right at the feedpoint, is a large multi > turn coax choke. ( Ya know the so many turns on a PVC pipe thing ) > > The feedline is then ran through the air for about 60 feet to the eve > of the house where it runs along the eve of the house on 2 sides and > finally into the shack. Total length is about 100 feet. > > Now I am trying to decide without actually trying to make up > connectors or whatever, what might be the best way to use this on 160. > > 1- As described above just the center pin, touching. I guess with the > braid floating the braid gets capacitivly coupled to the power and > does the radiating and receiving. YES? NO? > > BUT I can see the RF actually also going and using the existing > vertical because of the touching center pin. BUT, the braid signal, > I'm assuming the RF is not getting past the Coax coil and using the > radials. > > 2- Apply power to only the braid? similiar to #1 but backwards. again > no power to the radials probably?, and only cap coupled to the vertical. > > 3- short the center and shield together and run it that way. > > Anyone have any thoughts of the best configuration any thoughts? > > Or how would a end fed random wire like 1/4 wave long about 10 feet up > work better? > > Joe WB9SBD > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: 160 Antenna
Traditionally, the 80 meter dipole example you sited was the typical improvisation guys used to get on 160. How well it worked depended on how long and vertical the feedline was and a lot of luck, basically how close to a "T" top loaded vertical fed against ground it ended up being . But a little intention could make it work much better. When I put up my first antenna at this QTH (a 92 ft dipole fed with 42ft of open wire line aka ZS6BKW antenna), I put a switch box at the base that shorted the bottom of the feedline and fed it to a matching network to make it an actual "T" on 160 and put down about 30 random length radials at ground level. It has worked pretty well for what it is. In your situation, you don't really have anything approximating the traditional "T" . So applying intention to your case , since you already have a vertical with radials, I would say that the easiest good solution would be to put a loading coil between the antenna end of your feedline choke and the radiator of your 40 meter vertical and tap it for resonance. You cou ld just physically switch it in and out to change bands, but ultima tely you will probably want to work out a way to use relays to remote switch the taps, with no inductor in series on 40 meters and progressively more on o ther bands (you cou ld add 60 and 80 meters in addition to 160 if you wanted). You would ne ed to either run a control cable or build an arrangement to inject the switching voltage on your existing coax. What you would end up with is a base fed vertical, basically a version of the Butternut vertical system which works reasonably well on 160. You may want to add a few longer radials to help further on 160. The low wire would probably be a very poor antenna on 160. 73, K3OX - Original Message - From: "Joe" To: "TopBand" Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 9:31:49 AM Subject: Topband: 160 Antenna OK, as users of this band, we all have probably done this at least once in your radio lifetime. You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but you just push the connector in just so only the center pin is touching, and load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, vertical, or end fed long wire. Hey it works. I'm thinking of doing something similar, because a full sized 1/4 wave elevated vertical for 40 meters, works as well as a cannenna does when trying to use it on 160. But I never thought of what might be the best way to do this. The antenna as stated is a full sized 1/4 wave elevated Vertical, The base of the vertical is 10 feet above the ground with sloping radials that act as guy wires also to hold the base in place. At the base of the antenna right at the feedpoint, is a large multi turn coax choke. ( Ya know the so many turns on a PVC pipe thing ) The feedline is then ran through the air for about 60 feet to the eve of the house where it runs along the eve of the house on 2 sides and finally into the shack. Total length is about 100 feet. Now I am trying to decide without actually trying to make up connectors or whatever, what might be the best way to use this on 160. 1- As described above just the center pin, touching. I guess with the braid floating the braid gets capacitivly coupled to the power and does the radiating and receiving. YES? NO? BUT I can see the RF actually also going and using the existing vertical because of the touching center pin. BUT, the braid signal, I'm assuming the RF is not getting past the Coax coil and using the radials. 2- Apply power to only the braid? similiar to #1 but backwards. again no power to the radials probably?, and only cap coupled to the vertical. 3- short the center and shield together and run it that way. Anyone have any thoughts of the best configuration any thoughts? Or how would a end fed random wire like 1/4 wave long about 10 feet up work better? Joe WB9SBD _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: 160 Antenna
When I was a newlywed in 1975 and lived in a downstairs apartment of a two story house, I put up a quarterwave wire that started at ground level, never got over 20 feet high, zig zagged around the yard from tree to tree. I think I drove in a short piece of aluminum tubing for a ground connection. Drake T-4XB and R-4B, about 150 watts. One magical night around this time of year, the band opened up and I worked several Europeans who were all over S9 on the meter. You never know. Stan, K5GO On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:47 AM K4SAV wrote: > Joe said > "You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you > connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but you > just push the connector in just so only the center pin is touching, and > load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, vertical, or end fed > long wire. Hey it works. " > > Back many years ago I did the same thing. Well, I knew better but I had > this flash of stupidity overcome me and I wanted to use it while it was > fresh. I blew out all the horizontal drivers in the big projection TV set. > > Jerry, K4SAV > > > On 12/17/2018 8:31 AM, Joe wrote: > > OK, as users of this band, we all have probably done this at least > > once in your radio lifetime. > > > > You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you > > connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but > > you just push the connector in just so only the center pin is > > touching, and load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, > > vertical, or end fed long wire. Hey it works. > > > > I'm thinking of doing something similar, because a full sized 1/4 wave > > elevated vertical for 40 meters, works as well as a cannenna does when > > trying to use it on 160. > > > > But I never thought of what might be the best way to do this. The > > antenna as stated is a full sized 1/4 wave elevated Vertical, The > > base of the vertical is 10 feet above the ground with sloping radials > > that act as guy wires also to hold the base in place. > > > > At the base of the antenna right at the feedpoint, is a large multi > > turn coax choke. ( Ya know the so many turns on a PVC pipe thing ) > > > > The feedline is then ran through the air for about 60 feet to the eve > > of the house where it runs along the eve of the house on 2 sides and > > finally into the shack. Total length is about 100 feet. > > > > Now I am trying to decide without actually trying to make up > > connectors or whatever, what might be the best way to use this on 160. > > > > 1- As described above just the center pin, touching. I guess with the > > braid floating the braid gets capacitivly coupled to the power and > > does the radiating and receiving. YES? NO? > > > > BUT I can see the RF actually also going and using the existing > > vertical because of the touching center pin. BUT, the braid signal, > > I'm assuming the RF is not getting past the Coax coil and using the > > radials. > > > > 2- Apply power to only the braid? similiar to #1 but backwards. again > > no power to the radials probably?, and only cap coupled to the vertical. > > > > 3- short the center and shield together and run it that way. > > > > Anyone have any thoughts of the best configuration any thoughts? > > > > Or how would a end fed random wire like 1/4 wave long about 10 feet up > > work better? > > > > Joe WB9SBD > > _ > > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > > Reflector > > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband > Reflector > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: 160 Antenna
Joe said "You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but you just push the connector in just so only the center pin is touching, and load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, vertical, or end fed long wire. Hey it works. " Back many years ago I did the same thing. Well, I knew better but I had this flash of stupidity overcome me and I wanted to use it while it was fresh. I blew out all the horizontal drivers in the big projection TV set. Jerry, K4SAV On 12/17/2018 8:31 AM, Joe wrote: OK, as users of this band, we all have probably done this at least once in your radio lifetime. You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but you just push the connector in just so only the center pin is touching, and load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, vertical, or end fed long wire. Hey it works. I'm thinking of doing something similar, because a full sized 1/4 wave elevated vertical for 40 meters, works as well as a cannenna does when trying to use it on 160. But I never thought of what might be the best way to do this. The antenna as stated is a full sized 1/4 wave elevated Vertical, The base of the vertical is 10 feet above the ground with sloping radials that act as guy wires also to hold the base in place. At the base of the antenna right at the feedpoint, is a large multi turn coax choke. ( Ya know the so many turns on a PVC pipe thing ) The feedline is then ran through the air for about 60 feet to the eve of the house where it runs along the eve of the house on 2 sides and finally into the shack. Total length is about 100 feet. Now I am trying to decide without actually trying to make up connectors or whatever, what might be the best way to use this on 160. 1- As described above just the center pin, touching. I guess with the braid floating the braid gets capacitivly coupled to the power and does the radiating and receiving. YES? NO? BUT I can see the RF actually also going and using the existing vertical because of the touching center pin. BUT, the braid signal, I'm assuming the RF is not getting past the Coax coil and using the radials. 2- Apply power to only the braid? similiar to #1 but backwards. again no power to the radials probably?, and only cap coupled to the vertical. 3- short the center and shield together and run it that way. Anyone have any thoughts of the best configuration any thoughts? Or how would a end fed random wire like 1/4 wave long about 10 feet up work better? Joe WB9SBD _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: 160 Antenna
OK, as users of this band, we all have probably done this at least once in your radio lifetime. You want to get on 160, but do not have an actual 160 antenna. So you connect the largest antenna ya have, usually a 80 meter dipole, but you just push the connector in just so only the center pin is touching, and load the whole thing up like a top capacity hat, vertical, or end fed long wire. Hey it works. I'm thinking of doing something similar, because a full sized 1/4 wave elevated vertical for 40 meters, works as well as a cannenna does when trying to use it on 160. But I never thought of what might be the best way to do this. The antenna as stated is a full sized 1/4 wave elevated Vertical, The base of the vertical is 10 feet above the ground with sloping radials that act as guy wires also to hold the base in place. At the base of the antenna right at the feedpoint, is a large multi turn coax choke. ( Ya know the so many turns on a PVC pipe thing ) The feedline is then ran through the air for about 60 feet to the eve of the house where it runs along the eve of the house on 2 sides and finally into the shack. Total length is about 100 feet. Now I am trying to decide without actually trying to make up connectors or whatever, what might be the best way to use this on 160. 1- As described above just the center pin, touching. I guess with the braid floating the braid gets capacitivly coupled to the power and does the radiating and receiving. YES? NO? BUT I can see the RF actually also going and using the existing vertical because of the touching center pin. BUT, the braid signal, I'm assuming the RF is not getting past the Coax coil and using the radials. 2- Apply power to only the braid? similiar to #1 but backwards. again no power to the radials probably?, and only cap coupled to the vertical. 3- short the center and shield together and run it that way. Anyone have any thoughts of the best configuration any thoughts? Or how would a end fed random wire like 1/4 wave long about 10 feet up work better? Joe WB9SBD _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
